Consolidated: Consular Sage Melee should scale with Willpower Thread

[Bankingclan]

I agree with this. Besides, doesn't every other class have a weapon that has it's damage based off of their primary stat? There are times when I do want to throw in some damage, but I don't necessarily want to waste the pool I use for healing and we do not have even a semi-effective non pool using attack like probably every other class in the game.

 

The question is... Do other ranged AC/Specs have non-pool using attacks that scale with their primary stat? If so, then the sage should to. If that one non-pool using attack is a melee attack, that is actually a disadvantage more than it is an advantage because we would have to close to within melee range to use it. I'm guessing a trooper or smugger's non-pool attack does just as much in melee range as it does outside of melee range. But because the sage is a Jedi, I think many of us would be ok with our non-pool using attack being our lightsaber (A melee attack).

 

The question here is: do you need this?

 

I honestly don't know as I am not a healer myself, but the smuggler and trooper have a strange resource that is sometimes unpredictable and perhaps needs more managing. our force is more like a traditional mana pool I think.

 

Also, I undrestand your point, but the power of the lightsabre would still scale fore the sage, meaning that dps players would have a difference to the trooper and smuggler in that they must be in melee range for this 'baseline attack' to work. Which would mean that people would begin to believe that the sage is a melee class. Why else would it have an ability to use that drains no force that is very viable and can only be used from melee?

[Samaul]

Smuggler, Trooper, Imperial Agent and Bounty Hunters all say hi. All of them have viable abilities to use to fight back in melee with though obviously how effectively they can do it depends on spec.

 

That said I've lost count of the number of times I've been jumped from stealth by an Op/Assassin on my full Sawbones Scoundrel and completely destroyed that stealther. On my Sage if an Assassin or Op jumps me I'm pretty much never going to get them off me if my team's too busy to help.

 

The only other option is to change Sorc/Sage animations to use the Sabre more but that would involve getting all of the motion capture people back together for the sake of a couple of animations.

 

I havent played the other classes much yet. I do know that the Sage is not a very good dueling class. Other classes just seem to have better tools for 1v1. The sage is good in organized groups but if you like to duel, find another class imho.

[EcrirTwyLar]

The question here is: do you need this?

 

I honestly don't know as I am not a healer myself, but the smuggler and trooper have a strange resource that is sometimes unpredictable and perhaps needs more managing. our force is more like a traditional mana pool I think.

 

Also, I undrestand your point, but the power of the lightsabre would still scale fore the sage, meaning that dps players would have a difference to the trooper and smuggler in that they must be in melee range for this 'baseline attack' to work. Which would mean that people would begin to believe that the sage is a melee class. Why else would it have an ability to use that drains no force that is very viable and can only be used from melee?

 

Do we NEED anything? That's a very vague question. Would it be useful? Yes. Let's say I'm in a fight with my companion tanking and I'm healing. The fight gets right down to the end with both sides almost dead. I'm out of focus and can't heal any longer. Any other class in the game would still have a non-pool using attack to use that would scale with their primary stat. I don't. No matter what, I'm going to try to do some extra damage because I can't heal my companion anymore and that extra damage just might help me survive. It sure would be nice if my non-pool attack benefited from my primary stat like it does for other classes.

[Bankingclan]

I havent played the other classes much yet. I do know that the Sage is not a very good dueling class. Other classes just seem to have better tools for 1v1. The sage is good in organized groups but if you like to duel, find another class imho.

 

??? We have a 60 sec. stun, a 4(?) second stun that does not break through damage; a knockback, an ability that slows the enemy as they try to approach you, several reliable dots (atleast through balance.) From what I see, we have atleast a decent number of tools.

 

P.S : Does the project stun work on enemy players? I've never really tested it.

[Bankingclan]

Do we NEED anything? That's a very vague question. Would it be useful? Yes. Let's say I'm in a fight with my companion tanking and I'm healing. The fight gets right down to the end with both sides almost dead. I'm out of focus and can't heal any longer. Any other class in the game would still have a non-pool using attack to use that would scale with their primary stat. I don't. No matter what, I'm going to try to do some extra damage because I can't heal my companion anymore and that extra damage just might help me survive. It sure would be nice if my non-pool attack benefited from my primary stat like it does for other classes.

 

I see. As I've said, I'm not a healer myself and it seems now that something like this would be useful. However I still think it should stay as a ranged ability, I would have no clue what kind of ability it would be though.

[EcrirTwyLar]

I see. As I've said, I'm not a healer myself and it seems now that something like this would be useful. However I still think it should stay as a ranged ability, I would have no clue what kind of ability it would be though.

 

A non-pool using ranged ability would make sense for those looking at this strictly from an MMO point of view. But there are many who like the thought of the sage still being a Jedi and as such, should be able to use a light saber how it was meant to be used. I personally don't think it is unbalancing to let the sage have the two basic melee attacks that they started with.

 

When people talk balance, they usually have PvP in mind. But what sage in their right mind is going to intentionally stay in melee range with a warrior even if they have two basic melee attacks that scale with willpower? If anyone thinks this is something that would unbalance the game, they are crazy.

[EcrirTwyLar]

After doing a little research... I found that pretty much all advanced class attacks benefit from that AC's primary attribute except for the sage. Even the Shadow's willpower benefits both melee and force power attacks. So those ranged attacks that the shadow got from their base class are still useable AND get full benefit from their primary stat, which is willpower. Yet the Sage does not get those same bonuses from their willpower even though they are from the same base class.

 

If the Sage's lightsaber attacks become over powered, then balance them. But Sages willpower SHOULD still give bonuses to both melee and force attacks.

Edited January 1, 2012 by EcrirTwyLar

[Samaul]

??? We have a 60 sec. stun, a 4(?) second stun that does not break through damage; a knockback, an ability that slows the enemy as they try to approach you, several reliable dots (atleast through balance.) From what I see, we have atleast a decent number of tools.

 

P.S : Does the project stun work on enemy players? I've never really tested it.

 

Force lift is essentially useless in pvp, it doesnt last 60 sec in pvp and it breaks on damage.

[Samaul]

After doing a little research... I found that pretty much all advanced class attacks benefit from that AC's primary attribute except for the sage. Even the Shadow's willpower benefits both melee and force power attacks. So those ranged attacks that the shadow got from their base class are still useable AND get full benefit from their primary stat, which is willpower. Yet the Sage does not get those same bonuses from their willpower even though they are from the same base class.

 

If the Sage's lightsaber attacks become over powered, then balance them. But Sages willpower SHOULD still give bonuses to both melee and force attacks.

 

/agreed

[Samaul]

After doing a little research... I found that pretty much all advanced class attacks benefit from that AC's primary attribute except for the sage. Even the Shadow's willpower benefits both melee and force power attacks. So those ranged attacks that the shadow got from their base class are still useable AND get full benefit from their primary stat, which is willpower. Yet the Sage does not get those same bonuses from their willpower even though they are from the same base class.

 

If the Sage's lightsaber attacks become over powered, then balance them. But Sages willpower SHOULD still give bonuses to both melee and force attacks.

 

So, why were sages singled out? Why do we not get full benefit from our primary stat?

[Bankingclan]

Force lift is essentially useless in pvp, it doesnt last 60 sec in pvp and it breaks on damage.

 

But you can still use it to get out of a pinch, even 5 seconds is a long time in an MMO.

[Samaul]

But you can still use it to get out of a pinch, even 5 seconds is a long time in an MMO.

 

I find that it is resisted or broken within 1-2 seconds. I stand by the statement that force lift is useless in pvp except in the case of world pvp on companions.

[Samaul]

Given the fact that the sage is the only class that has abilities that do not scale with their primary stat, we now have two questions that need to be answered

 

from EricTwyLar

 

After doing a little research... I found that pretty much all advanced class attacks benefit from that AC's primary attribute except for the sage. Even the Shadow's willpower benefits both melee and force power attacks. So those ranged attacks that the shadow got from their base class are still useable AND get full benefit from their primary stat, which is willpower. Yet the Sage does not get those same bonuses from their willpower even though they are from the same base class.

 

1. Were sages unfairly singled out for an excessive nerf?

 

2. What is the solution to this issue?

 

> Sage melee damage should scale with willpower.

 

3. To what degree should sage scale with willpower?

 

> I have suggested 20% as a good starting point.

 

4. Do we need any additional melee abilities?

 

> A ranged finisher or lightsabre throw has been suggested. I think this is a good idea. I dont think that any new pure melee abilities should be added. A ranged finisher (that also works in melee range) is consistent with the design of the sage class.

 

Comments, suggestions, (constructive) criticisms?

[smartalectwo]

3. To what degree should sage scale with willpower?

 

> I have suggested 20% as a good starting point.

 

If this was a 2-point talent - let's say in the Balance tree, 1st point 10%, 2nd point 20% - would you take it?

[Samaul]

If this was a 2-point talent - let's say in the Balance tree, 1st point 10%, 2nd point 20% - would you take it?

 

Great idea!

 

I think it should either be a tier1 skill point in the balance tree or added to the seer tree somewhere. The TK tree is fine as is.

[smartalectwo]

Maybe even call it 'Makashi'. It's a one-handed style that emphasises careful control and positioning (basically, it's lightsaber fencing, think Count Dooku), and it's a canon lightsaber form that's not represented in SWTOR yet.

 

Edit: It would have to be tier 2 or 3, though, if only to ensure that other trees would have to sacrifice a bit to get it.

Edited January 2, 2012 by smartalectwo

[Samaul]

Maybe even call it 'Makashi'. It's a one-handed style that emphasises careful control and positioning (basically, it's lightsaber fencing, think Count Dooku), and it's a canon lightsaber form that's not represented in SWTOR yet.

 

Edit: It would have to be tier 2 or 3, though, if only to ensure that other trees would have to sacrifice a bit to get it.

 

Makashi, I like it! Cool idea

 

I agree with moving "Makashi" up a tier or two.

Edited January 2, 2012 by Samaul

[hadoken]

The reason that willpower doesn't scale with melee damage for sages is so that our best dps doesn't come from double strike, as it does for the first 10 levels of gameplay.

 

Georg has commented on it in the past during beta, this is by design and is not going to change.

[SithEater]

The reason that willpower doesn't scale with melee damage for sages is so that our best dps doesn't come from double strike, as it does for the first 10 levels of gameplay.

 

Georg has commented on it in the past during beta, this is by design and is not going to change.

And shouldn't change, we are a ranged class and I don't wanna have to give up some of what we are made for to get a bump in something we are not.

[Samaul]

The reason that willpower doesn't scale with melee damage for sages is so that our best dps doesn't come from double strike, as it does for the first 10 levels of gameplay.

 

Georg has commented on it in the past during beta, this is by design and is not going to change.

 

You speak for the devs then?

 

I just read this in one of my loading screens in game

 

Willpower increases the damage and critical chances of the Consular’s Melee and Force powers.

 

Is this another MMORPG bait and switch like the paladin in wow?

 

They tell you you are going to be swinging a powerful two handed weapon when you roll your character but you end up standing in the back of the raid and spamming 3 abilities.

 

The fundamental problem with your perspective is that our ranged dps just isnt that great, in fact, its rather weak, especially for a seer. Its not like we were compensated for the loss of melee damage from willpower.

Edited January 3, 2012 by Samaul

[Samaul]

And shouldn't change, we are a ranged class and I don't wanna have to give up some of what we are made for to get a bump in something we are not.

 

Again, this is not some generic MMO with the standard cookie cutter archetypes like RIFT. We are Jedi, not carbon copy mages.

[Halja]

From a lore point of view, the reason a sage is relatively weak compared to others in melee is that they chose to focus on empowering thier force abilities at the expense of improving martial prowess. (A shadow for example would fall somewhere in the middle, and a guardian almost purely martial).

 

From a gameplay point of view?

 

You wanted to be a hybrid? Should have chosen shadow, as the advanced class trainer described them almost perfectly.

[Bankingclan]

You speak for the devs then?

 

I just read this in one of my loading screens in game

 

 

 

Is this another MMORPG bait and switch like the paladin in wow?

 

They tell you you are going to be swinging a powerful two handed weapon when you roll your character but you end up standing in the back of the raid and spamming 3 abilities.

 

The fundamental problem with your perspective is that our ranged dps just isnt that great, in fact, its rather weak, especially for a seer. Its not like we were compensated for the loss of melee damage from willpower.

 

1)The quote you mentioned is given to new players to tell them what stats to look ut for, when you become a sage, this doesn't matter, because yo shouldn't be in melee range. If you become a shadow, it does, because you are given power to yur melee abilities and things like progect or force in balance if you go balance.

 

2) Why should seers have good ranged dps? They are not a dps class. I understand if you ever want tothrow off some small numbers, and that's fine. But then you have to suffer that those force abilities will be less force and effectivity efficient. The seer is a healing class, if it can contest dps classes in dps, then you lose any balance in game structure you have.

[Bankingclan]

Again, this is not some generic MMO with the standard cookie cutter archetypes like RIFT. We are Jedi, not carbon copy mages.

 

Again, YES IT IS. It has to be or else everyone would play a jedi sage because they can heal, have good ranged dps and to top it all off, be able to dish out some okay numbers in the melee field. It is an mmo. The thing that you are suggesting brings a singleplayer game to mind.

[tufy]

Even in single player games, there are tradeoffs. Take kotor: you can't be as good with a force if you want to hit with melee. You can't be as good with melee if you want to use force powers. A Knight will have a few force powers, then he'll be out of force, whereas the consular would use awesome force powers, but wouldn't hit anywhere close to what a knight does with his lightsaber. You can mix and match all you want, but in the end, there's some basic balance between the skills.

 

The same holds for TOR: knight for melee, shadow for hybrid, sage for force powers. Asking for more is silly.