Consolidated: Consular Sage Melee should scale with Willpower Thread

[Samaul]

Except that adding willpower to our melee dmg calculations would in no way turn out how you stated. Yes you test to see if it comes out how you expected, but it involves a rediculous amount of iterations in more than one scenario in this case. Your software testing on some management application or antivirus program doesn't really apply here. Here they need to test gameplay BALANCE, not just the software code in a vaccuum. Metrics need to be collected to determine if a change even needs to be made, assuming it does, then they decide how to implement such a change. Once they do, it's run through through the mill hundreds of times in hundreds of situations and the results are poured over. If it holds true to their design goals they accept it, if not they go back to the drawing board.

 

I don't even know why I'm trying, the fact is this clear as day presents balancing issues in the gameplay. You refuse to acknowledge this and instead try to straw man my arguments by going off on tangents irrelevent to the point. Who gives a crap about how testing works ultimately? This change not only doesn't need to be made, making it would upset the balance between the classes and disrupts BW's intentions for the AC.

 

In software development there are things that are complex and things that are simple. You are trying to make the simple seem complex to support your assertions. Let me put this in terms I hope you can understand.

 

If you throw a rock at someone you can really hurt them with it, depending on the size and velocity of the rock. If you throw a tennis ball at them, you probably wont hurt them much at all. At this time, Sages are throwing tennis balls with our melee abilities, our melee attacks essentially bounce off of the target while doing little or no harm. What some of us are asking for is a softball or even a baseball, something that gets their attention but is very unlikely to kill them before they kill us with the rocks they are throwing at us.

 

In the ultimate balance calculation, the composition of the rock and the baseball are fundamentally different and in rock vs baseball, all other things being equal, the rock always wins.

 

Understand?

Edited December 28, 2011 by Samaul

[Khadroth]

In software development there are things that are complex and things that are simple. You are trying to make the simple seem complex to support your assertions. Let me put this in terms I hope you can understand.

 

If you throw a rock at someone you can really hurt them with it, depending on the size and velocity of the rock. If you throw a tennis ball at them, you probably wont hurt them much at all. At this time, Sages are throwing tennis balls with our melee abilities, our melee attacks essentially bounce off of the target while doing little or no harm. What some of us are asking for is a softball or even a baseball, something that gets their attention but is very unlikely to kill them before they kill us with the rocks they are throwing at us.

 

In the ultimate balance calculation, the composition of the rock and the baseball are fundamentally different and the rock is always more destructive.

 

Understand?

 

Allow me to requote myself.

 

I don't even know why I'm trying, the fact is this clear as day presents balancing issues in the gameplay. You refuse to acknowledge this and instead try to straw man my arguments by going off on tangents irrelevent to the point. Who gives a crap about how testing works ultimately? This change not only doesn't need to be made, making it would upset the balance between the classes and disrupts BW's intentions for the AC.

[Samaul]

I happen to like having a ranged playstyle around so do obviously a huge number of other peeps. There are tons of sages out there. Sages are overpopulated. Sorcerers are even more popular. There are lots of people who like a ranged caster playstyle.

 

I do not get why you are so intent on destroying the Sage playstyle for the people that enjoy it? You knew that the Sage did not rely on the light sabre and rolled one anyway?

 

This is the mage vs jedi argument. Telling a Jedi not to use their lightsabre is just plain silly. Telling a mage not to wack things with their staff makes good sense most of the time.

[Khadroth]

This is the mage vs jedi argument. Telling a Jedi not to use their lightsabre is just plain silly. Telling a mage not to wack things with their staff makes good sense most of the time.

 

Sage = Force Wizard.

[Samaul]

Allow me to requote myself.

 

You can quote yourself all you want. Your assertions about balance just don't hold water and you have not presented a cogent, complete argument to support them. Essentially what you are doing is playing chicken little and screaming that the "sky is going to fall" if sages and sorcerers get a minor buff to melee damage.

 

To put it another way, the only way your arguments would make sense would be if Sages were given the same melee abilities that shadows have along with our current abilities with no changes. No one is asking for that. It is you who is making the straw man argument, not me. You are trying to disprove an argument that no one but yourself is making.

 

As for you assertion that giving Sages the same melee power as a shadow or sentinel would have a negative effect on game balance, I could not agree more. However, that is your argument, not mine.

 

As for your assertion that a minor buff to existing Sage melee abilities would have a negative effect on game balance, I could not disagree more. Stop trying to change the argument and answer the clearly stated arguments and assertions myself and others have made.

Edited December 28, 2011 by Samaul

[Samaul]

Sage = Force Wizard.

 

Sage = Force Wizard that carries the most powerful melee weapon ever imagined.

 

*fixed*

[Khadroth]

Sage = Force Wizard that carries the most powerful melee weapon ever imagined.

 

*fixed*

 

Keep arguing lore all you want, it has no place in discussions of balance. You still have yet to show how adding willpower to our melee calculations wouldn't upset balance, whereas I've presented you multiple problems that are fact.

 

You simply can not deny that this change makes double strike as strong as a Shadow's untalented version. With the added benefits of stronger dots, a shield, and the ability to heal, there's no way this wouldn't let us beat a melee at their own game. At this point I'm honestly wondering how much time you've spent PvPing.

[Samaul]

Keep arguing lore all you want, it has no place in discussions of balance. You still have yet to show how adding willpower to our melee calculations wouldn't upset balance, whereas I've presented you multiple problems that are fact.

 

You simply can not deny that this change makes double strike as strong as a Shadow's untalented version. With the added benefits of stronger dots, a shield, and the ability to heal, there's no way this wouldn't let us beat a melee at their own game. At this point I'm honestly wondering how much time you've spent PvPing.

 

Ad hominem attack, ignore the post, attack the poster. At this point, you are just trolling. In fact, I lead a guild that pvps regularly and wins Warzones frequently. I am usually in the top 3 in healing and the top 5 in damage.

 

Again you try to change the subject and the argument. No one is asking to have shadow melee abilities grafted onto the sage but you. We are asking to have two melee attacks and autoattack scale with willpower, and to a far less degree than any melee dps class in the game, thats it. Please address the discussion we are having rather than trying tohijack it by putting words in my mouth.

 

Lore has nothing to do with balance?

 

Im sure Lucas Arts and BioWare would disagree with you.

Edited December 28, 2011 by Samaul

[Zyllos]

I happen to like having a ranged playstyle around so do obviously a huge number of other peeps. There are tons of sages out there. Sages are overpopulated. Sorcerers are even more popular. There are lots of people who like a ranged caster playstyle.

 

I do not get why you are so intent on destroying the Sage playstyle for the people that enjoy it? You knew that the Sage did not rely on the light sabre and rolled one anyway?

 

Because of the hybrid idea behind it. Melee healer is what I was hoping for but knowing they removed it during beta, I had hoped BW changed their mind before release.

 

You can still easily keep the ranged idea there but make the Sage have a tree that allows a bit of melee.

[Catlana]

This is the mage vs jedi argument. Telling a Jedi not to use their lightsabre is just plain silly. Telling a mage not to wack things with their staff makes good sense most of the time.

 

This brings lore in. Game lore gets rewritten a lot even Star Wars lore gets retconned (see Han shot first).

 

I traditional prefer to address mechanics and playstyles. On the mechanics front. We are very powerful (excellent CC, excellent control, and very good dps). Our weakness are defense (ie clothie) and depletion (ie running out of force).

 

Anything that helps to negate our weakness (depletion) can very easily push us into being OP (some argue that we are already there). Strengthening our melee attack reduces the impact of depletion during long boss fights so our dps for the fight would be increased. You can argue for a movement based fight that the additional time cost of positioning might outweigh this.

 

From a playstyle perspective, a ranged caster class is very important. Mostly because of high latency players. High latency has the least impact on a caster style class because of the fixed cast / channel times as well as limited movement requirements. This does not even address how popular the playstyle is (see huge numbers of sages / sorcerers ).

 

 

Any light sabre changes can not take up our raid dps or reduce playability for high latency / caster preferred playstylists. Therefore, a light sabre attack must remain an inferior option. The light sabre attack can be improved as long as these factors remain. I do not see this as making you happy thou. This is why I see a AC change mechanism as being inevitable. For people that want to mix light sabre and force powers, a balance shadow is the way to go.

[Khadroth]

Ad hominem attack, ignore the post, attack the poster. At this point, you are just trolling.

 

Says the man who just did exactly that 3 posts in a row. Whatever I'm done after this one.

 

In fact, I lead a guild that pvps regularly and wins Warzones frequently. I am usually in the top 3 in healing and the top 5 in damage.

 

Good then that just means you're blatently ignoring the fact that this change eliminates our only weakness as a class.

 

Again you try to change the subject and the argument. No one is asking to have shadow melee abilities grafted onto the sage but you. We are asking to have two melee attacks and autoattack scale with willpower, and to a far less degree than any melee dps class in the game, thats it. Please address the discussion we are having rather than trying tohijack it by putting words in my mouth.

 

You basically are, I on the other hand am flat out telling you to stop asking for that. You're asking for willpower to scale our melee dmg to a point that it becomes viable. Doing so means the sage in turn becomes viable in melee, which in turn means that it's now deadly no matter where it stands on the battle field. That represents a severe balancing issue for BW, and is something they will never consider.

 

Lore has nothing to do with balanced?

 

Im sure Lucas Arts and BioWare would disagree with you.

 

/Facepalm

 

Lore has a lot to do with this game and the stories in it. It has nothing to do with determining the tweaking of mechanics. Even still your argument here would easily be defeated by the fact that emphasis on force techniques at the expense of neglecting focus on saber practice is well versed in the lore. You can use your saber if you want, but you suck with it as intended due to your focus on other martial aspects. The weapon is only the most powerful melee weapon ever imagined in the hands of a trained expert, which is not a Sage. The Sage at best would have received basic defense training, nothing more.

 

And guess what? BW set the Sage precident themselves by allowing you to play a Jedi completely as a caster in KotOR almost a decade ago, kind of hard to argue with that from a lore perspective.

 

I'm to the point of stooping to the level of saying, if you want to melee, reroll. This is no different than Troopers asking for Cover, or Gunslingers asking for Stealth.

Edited December 28, 2011 by Khadroth

[Samaul]

Says the man who just did exactly that 3 posts in a row. Whatever I'm done after this one.

 

Good then that just means you're blatently ignoring the fact that this change eliminates our only weakness as a class.

 

You basically are, I on the other hand am flat out telling you to stop asking for that. You're asking for willpower to scale our melee dmg to a point that it becomes viable. Doing so means the sage in turn becomes viable in melee, which in turn means that it's now deadly no matter where it stands on the battle field. That represents a severe balancing issue for BW, and is something they will never consider.

 

/Facepalm

 

Lore has a lot to do with this game and the stories in it. It has nothing to do with determining the tweaking of mechanics. Even still your argument here would easily be defeated by the fact that emphasis on force techniques at the expense of neglecting focus on saber practice is well versed in the lore. You can use your saber if you want, but you suck with it as intended due to your focus on other martial aspects. The weapon is only the most powerful melee weapon ever imagined in the hands of a trained expert, which is not a Sage. The Sage at best would have received basic defense training, nothing more.

 

And guess what? BW set the Sage precident themselves by allowing you to play a Jedi completely as a caster in KotOR almost a decade ago, kind of hard to argue with that from a lore perspective.

 

I'm to the point of stooping to the level of saying, if you want to melee, reroll. This is no different than Troopers asking for Cover, or Gunslingers asking for Stealth.

 

The reroll argument is just a weak troll. Despite all of your condescending personal attacks, I think we can agree to disagree. I want the Sage to be a Jedi, you want the Sage to be a Mage. If the sage is to be a pure mage, it would be better to replace our lightsabre with a force orb that glows with varying brightness depending on our current level of force

Edited December 28, 2011 by Samaul

[Catlana]

Because of the hybrid idea behind it. Melee healer is what I was hoping for but knowing they removed it during beta, I had hoped BW changed their mind before release.

 

You can still easily keep the ranged idea there but make the Sage have a tree that allows a bit of melee.

 

I understand the concept of a melee healer (se AoC Bear Shaman). The current healing model (Seer) seems to be based on a Disc priest style. Adding a light sabre talent in the healing tree has less of an impact than one in a dps tree. Mostly because healers do not want to be re positioning when the tank needs heals. The strikes still need to do considerably less damage than a shadows thou otherwise the additional damage outweighs the cost of re positioning.

[Samaul]

I understand the concept of a melee healer (se AoC Bear Shaman). The current healing model (Seer) seems to be based on a Disc priest style. Adding a light sabre talent in the healing tree has less of an impact than one in a dps tree. Mostly because healers do not want to be re positioning when the tank needs heals. The strikes still need to do considerably less damage than a shadows thou otherwise the additional damage outweighs the cost of re positioning.

 

I do like the melee healer idea However, with very weak melee, though not quite base auto-attack damage as it is now.

[Khadroth]

I want the Sage to be a Jedi, you want the Sage to be a Mage.

 

Man you just keep sucking me in. I swear this is my last post.

 

Did you not read what I wrote? The mage archtype easily fits in Jedi lore and was already established in star wars video games by this very developer back in 2003.

 

Jedi = Mage

Jedi = Tank

Jedi = Whirling Lightsaber Dervish

Jedi = Rogue

 

All according to Lucas-approved lore. You're just stuck in your own singular mindset for what a Jedi has to be yet can't open your eyes enough to realize how close-minded you are. Go to Wookieepedia and do some reading if you don't believe me, it's all there.

[Samaul]

Man you just keep sucking me in. I swear this is my last post.

 

Did you not read what I wrote? The mage archtype easily fits in Jedi lore and was already established in star wars video games by this very developer back in 2003.

 

Jedi = Mage

Jedi = Tank

Jedi = Whirling Lightsaber Dervish

Jedi = Rogue

 

All according to Lucas-approved lore. You're just stuck in your own singular mindset for what a Jedi has to be yet can't open your eyes enough to realize how close-minded you are. Go to Wookieepedia and do some reading if you don't believe me, it's all there.

 

I have read almost all of TOR lore and nowhere in the lore is there a Jedi or a Sith for that matter that wields a lightsabre that hits like a wet noodle. Now maybe in SW:TOR MMORPG lore, there is such a thing but it can only be found on the SW:TOR game website.

 

Perhaps BioWare should include lightsabre therapy counseling sessions for sages in game in SW:TOR. It would go something like this

 

Young Jedi Sage: Master Shan, I dont understand, when I was going through my trials on Tython, I could quickly dispatch Flesh Raiders with ease. But now, the Sand People on Tatooine just laugh at me when I hit them with my Lightsabre. And the Sith just put me in a choke hold and ask me how I ever passed my Jedi trials with such weak lightsabre skills before they toss me aside. What happened master, where did I go wrong?

 

Master Shan: I am sorry my young Apprentice, your master neglected to tell you that all Sages are cursed with "force leprosy" in their main hand when they go down the sage path in exchange for their force weilding abilities. Your main hand will be weakened and withered, barely able to hold a lightsabre for the rest of your life.

 

Young Jedi Sage: But master, no one told me of this curse when they encouraged me to choose Sage!?

 

Master Shan: You did not ask young Jedi. Now bear your curse with honor and pride, and put your glove back on, your main hand offends me.

 

/sigh

 

The path of the sage and the sorcerer, to be cursed with "force leprosy" for the rest of our lives.

Edited December 28, 2011 by Samaul

[Catlana]

I do like the melee healer idea However, with very weak melee, though not quite base auto-attack damage as it is now.

 

Having support for varying playstyles is important. Different people like different playstyles (melee, caster dps, stealth, caster healing, etc.).

 

Adding a light sabre talent deep in the healing tree would create a melee healer playstyle as well as fix the gap between healers on non healing resource damage. The other two healers are both casting healers so a slight difference would be okay.

 

Healers are not really expected to do a lot of damage in tough fights so the change would be optional for existing players. Note, melee healers are traditionally very demanding. Re positioning for melee and reactive healing requires a lot of dexterity.

 

This change is far less disruptive than changing the only ranged caster playstyle in the game.

Edited December 28, 2011 by Catlana

[Zyllos]

I never wanted BW to change the mage portion of the Sage. This is what originally drew me into a Sage and this game in the first place is the idea of having shard abilities between the base and specialized classes.

 

I liked the beta quote someone gave when this issue came up with the Consular in general when talking about the melee skills.

 

All Shadow Classes > Balance Sage > All Other Sages

 

This to me ment that the Balance Sage did at least melee a bit, which it did during beta but BW streamlined to completely remove the shared component between the 2 specializations of the base.

 

The current Balance tree could easily handle having a melee talent within the tree along with the DoTs. And being a Sage, you can still have healing skills just not as efficient and powerful as a talented version.

[MitsukiAkihana]

I'm not much of a lore person or anything but just based on the class names for jedis i looked at knights as the sword fighters with some use of the force to optimize this. While consular was more of the force user that falls back to their saber only if they have to o-o

 

To look at the advance classes i considered sage more of the ranged specialist while shadow use the force to make their melee stronger while striking from the shadows.

The mirror classes are after all inquisitor sorcerer and assassin and based on those names makes it kinda easy to figure out what fighting/healing style they have ._.

 

I have tried both inquisitor (sorcerer) and consular (sage) and have yet to remove dual strike from my toolbar xD It's fun to randomly run up to mobs and use strike/dual strike. Also never really gotten over lvl 20 tho since i have yet to find the advance class/talent tree i like and are hoping balance sage will be something for me.

 

Ps. I have never really gotten into healing (Too much to handle for me) so this is from a dps point of view.

[tristhoth]

I agree with OP...

 

The sage melee damage is pathetic and rightfully so, but it seems illogical that a back-kick (tumult) does significantly more damage than two lightsaber strikes.

[Warem]

I have a question to the more knowledgeable/experienced people in the class:

 

If one of the sage's DPS spec were a bit more melee, or if necessary, thrown saber dependent, why would it be over powered if it simply replaced some abilities? Ie let's say you gain X DPS from melee, but you loose the same X DPS from lack of some spec (plus you also have to like, close into melee range, and risk damage)

 

If it is OP, I'd like to understand why, and if it isn't, perhaps it wouldn't be bad per say to have this, as it could add some extra Jedi-flavor to the class?

[PossibleBit]

I have a question to the more knowledgeable/experienced people in the class:

 

If one of the sage's DPS spec were a bit more melee, or if necessary, thrown saber dependent, why would it be over powered if it simply replaced some abilities? Ie let's say you gain X DPS from melee, but you loose the same X DPS from lack of some spec (plus you also have to like, close into melee range, and risk damage)

 

If it is OP, I'd like to understand why, and if it isn't, perhaps it wouldn't be bad per say to have this, as it could add some extra Jedi-flavor to the class?

 

The sage would basically cease to be a range DPS. Once a class has major parts of their rotation requiring melee range you essentially become a melee with range abilities (i.e. Jedi Shadow). As for saber throw, well it could certainly replace disturbance, but I don't think it would be very coherent if a TK Sage was constantly throwing his lightsaber around.

 

In PVP it would have an even harder impact. Sages are among the most squishy targets on the battlefield, making up for it with superior mobility and CC. Melee range is frankly the single one place where a sage should stay out of, as he'll be likely hammered on with little to no LoS obstacle in close vicinity.

[Samaul]

I have a question to the more knowledgeable/experienced people in the class:

 

If one of the sage's DPS spec were a bit more melee, or if necessary, thrown saber dependent, why would it be over powered if it simply replaced some abilities? Ie let's say you gain X DPS from melee, but you loose the same X DPS from lack of some spec (plus you also have to like, close into melee range, and risk damage)

 

If it is OP, I'd like to understand why, and if it isn't, perhaps it wouldn't be bad per say to have this, as it could add some extra Jedi-flavor to the class?

 

Good question. A small boost to melee damage would not be OP. I would like to see more Jedi-flavor added to the Sage Advanced Class.

[MisterWratten]

I think the big question should be:

 

"Why do Smuggler and Trooper healers get a free, damaging, attack, and we don't?"

 

Lore and looks aside, I think that should be equal. I can stand back on my Commando and drops heals, then shoots some stuff as I'm regenning. Why can't I do that on my Sage?

[Samaul]

I think the big question should be:

 

"Why do Smuggler and Trooper healers get a free, damaging, attack, and we don't?"

 

Lore and looks aside, I think that should be equal. I can stand back on my Commando and drops heals, then shoots some stuff as I'm regenning. Why can't I do that on my Sage?

 

I believe that Sages have the slowest resource regen of any advanced class?