Consolidated: Consular Sage Melee should scale with Willpower Thread

[Samaul]

Please don't implement any form of melee combat aside from what already exists. I rolled a Consular Sage to heal and use Force attacks. If I wanted to be a Consular that uses a Saber for damage, I would have rolled Shadow, or more likely, rolled either Advanced Class that a Jedi Knight has.

 

I think the difference of opinion here is between those who see the Sage as a Jedi and those who see the Sage as another MMO class that needs to have an existing MMO archetype grafted onto it and then never stray from that archetype.

 

If I wanted to roll a mage, or a warrior, or a priest or a shaman etc. I would be playing WoW or RIFT. I am a Jedi whose ally is the force. My gift is that I weild the power of the force like a weapon and I weild the weapon of a Jedi, the Lightsabre.

 

If you cannot understand the distinction, watch the Star Wars movies, read a star wars novel. If you still dont get it, it is not me that needs to reroll, maybe it is you who is playing the wrong game. I am certain that BioWare and Lucas Arts understand that a Sage is a Jedi but I am not sure that some of you do.

[maximusz]

I think the difference of opinion here is between those who see the Sage as a Jedi and those who see the Sage as another MMO class that needs to have an existing MMO archetype grafted onto it and then never stray from that archetype.

 

If I wanted to roll a mage, or a warrior, or a priest or a shaman etc. I would be playing WoW or RIFT. I am a Jedi whose ally is the force. My gift is that I weild the power of the force like a weapon and I weild the weapon of a Jedi, the Lightsabre.

 

If you cannot understand the distinction, watch the Star Wars movies, read a star wars novel. If you still dont get it, it is not me that needs to reroll, maybe it is you who is playing the wrong game. I am certain that BioWare and Lucas Arts understand that a Sage is a Jedi but I am not sure that some of you do.

 

After a lengthy read I was upset until I got to this post. This is someone who understands the mythos the game is centered upon. YES, the Sage should be able to incorporate the saber into their abilities. It has been referenced that the class is modeled after Yoda and The Emperor. Yoda was one of the best duelists, period. The Emperor took on 4 masters in saber combat only to be bested by Mace, who happens to be one of the best in the business. If I wanted a wizard I would play WoW or some other themed title. This is Star Wars, if you trained as a jedi means you handle the saber. This is what they are know for.

 

Now in game we know yes things would get stupid if after using several force powers I then use a strong saber power to waste my opponent. My game is the range game. I do healing better than the smuggler who does better damage from range than I do. It is give and take. Does it suck, well yes it does. My character has the biggest weakness of all jedi class. With a good damage dealing Knight in front then I can make a difference.

 

The truth of the matter is not the Sage's power. They are strong. What fans want is to be what they have seen in the movies and read in books. Is that too much to ask?

Edited December 27, 2011 by maximusz

[Sapphix]

LOL, I agree with Samaul & Maximusz. This isn't a high fantasy, it is Star Wars. Sage or not he is a Jedi and should make use of his light saber. What's more important, upholding someone's idea of a Mage/Wizard/Caster or living up to the standard of a Jedi?

 

We as players get locked up into what classes should do that accepting a new idea is like passing a grapefruit. We seem to forget that great and unique classes ignore preset notions. Here is a tip: If this idea angers you, you are wrong. If you disagree with this idea and can post a constructive counterarguments then perhaps you have valid points to be discussed.

 

Numbers can be balanced in many ways but giving a ranged class a 'bump' in melee damage will not greatly upsurp the balance already created. Maybe scaling melee damage off willpower isn't the answer but I support melee/lightsaber possibilities for the Jedi Sage.

Edited December 27, 2011 by Sapphix

[Grahame]

Hello, my name is Grahame. I'm a level 43 telekinetic sage and I still use Double Strike...

 

On a more serious note:

 

I still find Double Strike very handy for finishing off weak/normal mobs, especially when I couple it with Tumult, when they're in melee range since it's an instant activation. However, I also admit that there are many occasions where I use it out of principle (I make a deliberate effort to finish story line bosses with a saber thwack). Generally this is all I need to make me feel like a real Jedi.

 

As much as I would like willpower to enhance my two saber strikes, I have some concerns about it. (Not concerned about Strike though, it would still be craptacular.)

 

1. Gameplay Change (Main reason for Bioware I suspect)
   I don't believe it would be overpowered in PvE, BUT it could result in gameplay confusion. If willpower enhanced melee continued, nothing would tell a new level 10 sage to stop running into melee as they did before selecting an advanced class. As this sage/sorc advances and runs flashpoints they could get discouraged when running headlong into melee gets them squished. This would be bad for game & class retention.
    
   
2. PvP
   It would definitely help sages when fighting melee (I haven't PvP'ed enough yet to make a reasonable guess how much though). I'm guessing here that DS would hit about as hard as Disturbance but have the advantage of being uninterruptable. I'm sure the sage/sorc would still want to stay out of melee range as much as possible, but in the instance that a warrior/knight forces the sage/sorc to remain in melee range the warrior/knight will face higher damage output from the sage/sorc.
   

[Khadroth]

The concept is simple

 

The implementation is not.

[Samaul]

The implementation is not.

 

Yes, the implementation of scaling lightsabre and lightsabre ability damage with willpower is trivial.

[Catlana]

Please don't implement any form of melee combat aside from what already exists. I rolled a Consular Sage to heal and use Force attacks. If I wanted to be a Consular that uses a Saber for damage, I would have rolled Shadow, or more likely, rolled either Advanced Class that a Jedi Knight has.

 

QFT! I agree with this. The shadow AC is based heavily, heavily on light sabre usage. Shadows / Assassins wreck folks with their light sabres. The two ACs need to remain different and not become clones of each other. The sage is based on being a supreme force user not a light sabre master. I like the way my sage plays in flashpoints (btw my alt is a assassin). I do not want my force abilities watered down for a second rate light sabre attack. If you want strong light sabre attacks go shadow.

[Acharial]

What you are doing is imposing rules from classes from other games that do not apply to star wars. No, we are not mages. There are no mages in the star wars universe.

 

There are mages, sorcerors AND witches in the Star wars universe. Read more lore and come again.

[Rhoark]

Nobody wants sages to be the best saber combatants.

No one wants sages to melee more than they use the force, or even melee half the time.

What people want is one good reason for a sage to ever, ever draw a lightsaber under any circumstance. And that is lacking right now.

[Zyllos]

If Saber Strike and Double Strike scaled with Willpower, would I be able to deal as much damage as any other DPS class?

 

If I was being focused by a mob/player, will having Willpower scale the two melee strikes make me survive the encounter while continuing to produce good DPS numbers better than any other class?

 

No Willpower scaling melee damage for Sage/Sorcerer is an issue.

[Catlana]

If Saber Strike and Double Strike scaled with Willpower, would I be able to deal as much damage as any other DPS class?

 

If I was being focused by a mob/player, will having Willpower scale the two melee strikes make me survive the encounter while continuing to produce good DPS numbers better than any other class?

 

No Willpower scaling melee damage for Sage/Sorcerer is an issue.

 

Sages have excellent ranged attacks, excellent control abilities, excellent CC, but at the cost of wanting to stay out of melee range. Giving us good melee abilities would have to come at a steep cost.

 

I do not want my playstyle destroyed because you want to use a light sabre in melee when their are already heavy to moderate light sabre consulars (ala infiltration shadow / balance shadow).

 

I wish Bioware would implement AC changes so folks would not have to reroll to go to the playstyle that they like.

[Rhoark]

It would not unbalance anything to have melee abilities with the exact same damage and effect as the ranged abilities sages already can use at melee range. They could even be on the same button and use a lightsaber animation instead of a rock-throw animation at melee distance.

[Rhoark]

What I'd like to see is an execute attack. A strong will-based lightsaber attack that can only be used on a target under 20% for a good cinematic finish. You have to get the opponent to that point with core telekinetic abilities, so its in no danger of fundamentally changing the playstyle. (You also don't get the knight's gap closers so no one says you have to run up for the melee finisher if you don't want to.)

[Samaul]

What I'd like to see is an execute attack. A strong will-based lightsaber attack that can only be used on a target under 20% for a good cinematic finish. You have to get the opponent to that point with core telekinetic abilities, so its in no danger of fundamentally changing the playstyle. (You also don't get the knight's gap closers so no one says you have to run up for the melee finisher if you don't want to.)

 

/agreed

 

We desperately need a melee finisher.

[Samaul]

There are mages, sorcerors AND witches in the Star wars universe. Read more lore and come again.

 

I read 4 SW:TOR novels before launch including Decieved and I am working on another. Yes, there are sith sorcerers and witches in TOR. No there are no Jedi Sorcerers or witches in TOR lore, not one. There are Jedi who are master force wielders, there are Jedi who are master lightsabre weilders. There are Jedi who are master healers. All jedi carry and wield a lightsabre to some degree. There are no Jedi who are unable to defend themselves with a lightsabre alone. There are no Jedi who cannot kill with a lightsabre. Finally, there are no Jedi who carry a lightsabre that is set on low or stun. It is you who needs to read up on your lore and come again.

Edited December 28, 2011 by Samaul

[LopmaRibar]

I agree with the OP. A Jedi just isn't a Jedi without an effective lightsaber attack.

[Khadroth]

Yes, the implementation of scaling lightsabre and lightsabre ability damage with willpower is trivial.

 

You clearly have no concept of how game development works. Nothing is as simple as just flipping a switch or saying "yes lets do that". Everything has consequences and needs to be tested beforehand (assuming there's even a reason to make a change which in this case there isn't), especially in an MMO setting. Failure to do so results in unforeseen difficulties, bugs/glitches, horrible imbalances being created, and loss of subscriptions.

 

If you honestly think they can just add willpower to Sage sabER dmg without it affecting anything else, you're beyond my help.

[Samaul]

You clearly have no concept of how game development works. Nothing is as simple as just flipping a switch or saying "yes lets do that". Everything has consequences and needs to be tested beforehand (assuming there's even a reason to make a change which in this case there isn't), especially in an MMO setting. Failure to do so results in unforeseen difficulties, bugs/glitches, horrible imbalances being created, and loss of subscriptions.

 

If you honestly think they can just add willpower to Sage sabER dmg without it affecting anything else, you're beyond my help.

 

I am also a software developer. I didn't ask for nor do I need your help when it comes to software development. Try to tone down your condescending know-it-all attitude.

 

I have a pretty good idea how game development works. Games are developed using variations of object oriented architecture and design. In one possible scenario there would be a weapon object, then a melee weapon object derived from weapon, then a lightsabre object derived from melee, then possibly a knight or warrior (strength) derived from lightsabre, to back up a bit, there would be a consular or inquisitor derived from lightsabre and so on ending with the advanced classes of Sorcerer and Sage. Now each object is logically separate from the others at the base object level and are increasingly specialized but still logically separated in the derived objects. A consular or inquisitor weapon is a lightsabre but it has no knowledge of a warrior or knight lightsabre though both are derived from lightsabre. Changing the Sorcerer or Sage weapon objects will have zero effect on knight or warrior objects. Your assertion that a change in the Sorcerer or Sage lightsabre weapon objects would cause cascading effects across the entire game simply does not hold water. Are you saying that if Sorcerer or Sage lightsabre damage scaled with willpower, it would cause my speeder to stop working or that my ship would crash into every asteroid? If that were true, then SWTOR would be impossible to maintain and update and would never have been released.

 

Yes, in fact, applying an additional damage coefficient to the consular and inquisitor lightsabre weapon objects would be a straightforward and relatively trivial change. Yes, it would require testing but as I have stated, even if Sorcerer and Sage lightsabre damage were doubled by the application of scaling from willpower, neither class would have a chance of standing toe to toe with an equally geared knight, warrior, assassin or shadow. Our two paltry melee attacks, even if they did twice as much damage, pale in comparison to the melee attacks of the Marauder and the Assasin.

 

Testing this change would go something like this. Yes, Sorcerer and Sage now have viable lightsabre attacks that are capable of inflicting more than a scratch on a target. When a Sorcerer or Sage tries to stand toe to toe in melee against an equal level and equally geared Marauder, Assasin, Sentiel or Shadow, the Sorcerer or Sage has no chance of winning unless the melee dps class is at less than 10% health and the Sorcerer or Sage is at over 50% health when the encounter begins. Basically, in melee vs melee, pure melee dps classes would wipe the floor with the sage or sorcerer in pure melee, even with buffed up melee abilities. I dont see how that would affect game balance at all except that it could possibly cause my speeder to turn into a lightsabre and I would have a speeder hanging on my belt

Edited December 28, 2011 by Samaul

[Khadroth]

I am also a software developer. I didn't ask for nor do I need your help when it comes to software development. Try to tone down your condescending know-it-all attitude.

 

I have a pretty good idea how game development works. Games are developed using variations of object oriented architecture and design. In one possible scenario there would be a weapon object, then a melee weapon object derived from weapon, then a lightsabre object derived from melee, then possibly a knight or warrior (strength) derived from lightsabre, to back up a bit, there would be a consular or inquisitor derived from lightsabre and so on ending with the advanced classes of Sorcerer and Sage. Now each object is logically separate from the others at the base object level and are increasingly specialized but still logically separated in the derived objects. A consular or inquisitor weapon is a lightsabre but it has no knowledge of a warrior or knight lightsabre though both are derived from lightsabre. Changing the Sorcerer or Sage weapon objects will have zero effect on knight or warrior objects. Your assertion that a change in the Sorcerer or Sage lightsabre weapon objects would cause cascading effects across the entire game simply does not hold water. If that were true, then SWTOR would be impossible to maintain and update and would never have been released.

 

...This has nothing to do with the model, animation, or stats of the weapons, nor have I ever claimed it did.

 

Yes, in fact, applying an additional damage coefficient to the consular and inquisitor lightsabre weapon objects would be a straightforward and relatively trivial change. Yes, it would require testing but as I have stated, even if Sorcerer and Sage lightsabre damage were doubled by the application of scaling from willpower, neither class would have a chance of standing toe to toe with an equally geared knight, warrior, assassin or shadow. Our two paltry melee attacks, even if they did twice as much damage, pale in comparison to the melee attacks of the Marauder and the Assasin.

 

I guarantee you I'm not thinking of every consequence (hence "unforeseen") but here's a short list:

A.) This brings back the talk of a melee hybrid Sage that doesn't fall in line with BW's design direction for the class.

B.) This makes double strike hit just as hard as a Shadow's would untalented, meaning you in fact can stand toe to toe with a melee, especially while you have dots rolling on the target and a shield up.

C.) That in turn removes the NEED to kite a melee class and means as a class Sages cease to have a weakness to anything other than focus fire by multiple players.

D.) Such imbalances MUST be accounted for either by: Reversing the change, Nerfing other aspects of the class, or in an extreme case Buffing every other class to compensate.

 

Testing this change would go something like this. Yes, Sorcerer and Sage now have viable lightsabre attacks that are capable of inflicting more than a scratch on a target. When a Sorcerer or Sage tries to stand toe to toe in melee against an equal level and equally geared Marauder, Assasin, Sentiel or Shadow, the Sorcerer or Sage has no chance of winning unless the melee dps class is at less than 10% health and the Sorcerer or Sage is at over 50% health when the encounter begins. Basically, in melee vs melee, pure melee dps classes would wipe the floor with the sage or sorcerer in pure melee, even with buffed up melee abilities. I dont see how that would affect game balance at all.

 

LOL, that's not testing at all, that's just a description of how you envision such a change should turn out. Do you have any concept of what goes into testing a change? Nah forget it, it's not worth explaining when you're clearly close-minded on the subject.

Edited December 28, 2011 by Khadroth

[Samaul]

 

LOL, that's not testing at all, that's just a description of how you envision such a change should turn out. Do you have any concept of what goes into testing a change? Nah forget it, it's not worth explaining when you're clearly close-minded on the subject.

 

Your assertions are weak at best and this one is the weakest and it shows that you have no knowledge whatsoever of software testing. For an effective test, you create a test scenario and then run the code to see if the code meets that scenario when run. if at first the code does not pass the test, the programmer goes back and tweaks it until it does, then it is tested again and so on. What I gave you was one possible testing scenario. Please stop lecturing me on software development and stick to comments on gameplay.

[Catlana]

I will put my response into fairly abstract terms.

 

Sages currently do x damage. The devs feel x damage is correct. To do x damage requires us to use deplete our force several times in a fight. Now, adding bonus damage to our light sabre attacks causes us to exceed x by a significant amount because we have a strong attack while depleted. So in essence being depleted means absolutely nothing. The devs would have to nerf our range attacks "to the ground" to get back to x damage.

 

Consulars already have a mixed light sabre / force power playstyle with a balance shadow. There really is no alternative for someone who likes a purely ranged playstyle. You are destroying a unique playstyle for a playstyle that already exists.

Edited December 28, 2011 by Catlana

[Khadroth]

Your assertions are weak at best and this one is the weakest and it shows that you have no knowledge whatsoever of software testing. For an effective test, you create a test scenario and then run the code to see if the code meets that scenario when run. if at first the code does not pass the test, the programmer goes back and tweaks it until it does, then it is tested again and so on. What I gave you was one possible testing scenario. Please stop lecturing me on software development and stick to comments on gameplay.

 

Except that adding willpower to our melee dmg calculations would in no way turn out how you stated. Yes you test to see if it comes out how you expected, but it involves a rediculous amount of iterations in more than one scenario in this case. Your software testing on some management application or antivirus program doesn't really apply here. Here they need to test gameplay BALANCE, not just the software code in a vaccuum. Metrics need to be collected to determine if a change even needs to be made, assuming it does, then they decide how to implement such a change. Once they do, it's run through through the mill hundreds of times in hundreds of situations and the results are poured over. If it holds true to their design goals they accept it, if not they go back to the drawing board.

 

I don't even know why I'm trying, the fact is this clear as day presents balancing issues in the gameplay. You refuse to acknowledge this and instead try to straw man my arguments by going off on tangents irrelevent to the point. Who gives a crap about how testing works ultimately? This change not only doesn't need to be made, making it would upset the balance between the classes and disrupts BW's intentions for the AC.

[Zyllos]

...disrupts BW's intentions for the AC...

 

I think this is the community's problem. We never liked BW's intentions for the AC in the first place. I told them this during beta, they went ahead and changed it and now there is a problem.

 

Do not make a Star Wars game with Mage/Fighter/Thief ideas in your head, it just doesn't fly.

[Khadroth]

I think this is the community's problem. We never liked BW's intentions for the AC in the first place. I told them this during beta, they went ahead and changed it and now there is a problem.

 

Do not make a Star Wars game with Mage/Fighter/Thief ideas in your head, it just doesn't fly.

 

Yep, some people just have a different concept for how the class should play than what BW has chosen to go with.

[Catlana]

I think this is the community's problem. We never liked BW's intentions for the AC in the first place. I told them this during beta, they went ahead and changed it and now there is a problem.

 

Do not make a Star Wars game with Mage/Fighter/Thief ideas in your head, it just doesn't fly.

 

I happen to like having a ranged playstyle around so do obviously a huge number of other peeps. There are tons of sages out there. Sages are overpopulated. Sorcerers are even more popular. There are lots of people who like a ranged caster playstyle.

 

I do not get why you are so intent on destroying the Sage playstyle for the people that enjoy it? You knew that the Sage did not rely on the light sabre and rolled one anyway?