Consolidated: Consular Sage Melee should scale with Willpower Thread

[llorien]

sage gameplay is somewhat lackluster imho. melee scaling would spice it up a bit, considering the exorbitant cast times and the fact that you can't pull just one mob they are often in packs of three or for and your "kiting" abilities are largely non effective on strong or elite mobs. overall, just seems like everyone's having more fun than me. it's not like i can respect to play another role b/c sage is permanent and hell no i dont want to reroll b/c that would be a total waste of time.

[elvigy]

sage gameplay is somewhat lackluster imho. melee scaling would spice it up a bit, considering the exorbitant cast times and the fact that you can't pull just one mob they are often in packs of three or for and your "kiting" abilities are largely non effective on strong or elite mobs. overall, just seems like everyone's having more fun than me. it's not like i can respect to play another role b/c sage is permanent and hell no i dont want to reroll b/c that would be a total waste of time.

 

Seriously, if you're having problems with the standard packs of 3 or 4, you are completely playing the class wrong.

 

Editing to be more helpful Post your build and someone will help you. The Sage is practically a PvE god, imho.

Edited December 30, 2011 by elvigy

[Felioats]

I think the big question should be:

 

"Why do Smuggler and Trooper healers get a free, damaging, attack, and we don't?"

 

Lore and looks aside, I think that should be equal. I can stand back on my Commando and drops heals, then shoots some stuff as I'm regenning. Why can't I do that on my Sage?

 

I have wondered this as well. There are a number of inconsistencies with the Sage class in relation to others.

 

It gets no free attack in its intended range. It deviates wildly in gameplay from its basic class. It and it's mirror, the Sorcerer, are alone in this. It is not good design, in my opinion.

 

I would settle for the Sage getting half the Willpower bonus to saber damage, or perhaps a third saber attack that's better than Double Strike, but on a cooldown.

Edited December 31, 2011 by Felioats

[Felioats]

Forgot to rate the thread.

[SithEater]

If I read auto attack one more time I am going to force choke a puppy.

[JLRyan]

Removed all 2 melee skills from my sages bar on getting disturbance.

[Jaigen]

I have wondered this as well. There are a number of inconsistencies with the Sage class in relation to others.

 

It gets no free attack in its intended range. It deviates wildly in gameplay from its basic class. It and it's mirror, the Sorcerer, are alone in this. It is not good design, in my opinion.

 

I would settle for the Sage getting half the Willpower bonus to saber damage, or perhaps a third saber attack that's better than Double Strike, but on a cooldown.

 

 

Bad design in what way? does the sorc/sage need to use basic attacks? The answer is: no. Do the other classes need a basic attack ? the answer is: yes. OP Your trying to form the sage into your own image without regard for the balance. as such i cannot take this thread seriously

[Samaul]

Bad design in what way? does the sorc/sage need to use basic attacks? The answer is: no. Do the other classes need a basic attack ? the answer is: yes. OP Your trying to form the sage into your own image without regard for the balance. as such i cannot take this thread seriously

 

Again, I rolled a Jedi, not a mage. Please explain how a small buff to sage melee would imbalance the game.

 

Oh noez! Sagez will be running around Warzonez hacking everyone to death with their awesome melee skillz!

 

See how ridiculous that sounds?

[Jaigen]

Again, I rolled a Jedi, not a mage. Please explain how a small buff to sage melee would imbalance the game.

 

Oh noez! Sagez will be running around Warzonez hacking everyone to death with their awesome melee skillz!

 

See how ridiculous that sounds?

 

I dont have to explain you anything. you have to convince me that this buff is neccesary from balance point of view. And you also destroyed your own argument. Buffs that random and pointless are just bad as overbuffing an ability,

 

And you didnt roll a Jedi but a sage. And if you did your homework you would have realised that being a sage means that you wont be using you lightsaber anytime soon.

[IronFirewind]

Sages and Sorcs are squishy as hell. making Double Strike/Whatever the IQ has, will not break the game in PvP given that that Sorc/Sage will still go down in about 3-4 GCDs from any competent damage spec class.

 

Jedi isn't a mage and Star Wars isn't WoW. I too am disappointed to find out that I'm essentially playing WoW's Priest with a Lightsabre. People who whine about a Double strike buff ignore the following:

 

1) If a melee is in your face and you have no CC off CD, you're going to die no matter your damage output as there is absolutely no way to fight back at melee range. All other classes have some kind of self sufficiently if jumped except the Sage/Sorc, the Sage/Sorc is forced to rely on their premade for support.

 

2) Force abilities will always be more powerful anyway.

 

3) Let's face it, with the Sage/Sorc's defensive capabilities, being in melee range in PvE and PvP is always a horrible idea anyway.

 

4) Due to the amount of mobility that damage classes have, kiting in this game is a worthless strategy so I have to say this again: all other ranged classes have some way of defending themselves at melee range for if they get jumped. A buffed Double Strike would do nothing to give Sages/Sorcs the ability to fight back like that against a competent opponent but it would be something.

[PossibleBit]

If I read auto attack one more time I am going to force choke a puppy.

 

Auto Attack. We have to win the war against the puppies by any means necessary.

[Bankingclan]

So basically you're advocating to take an ability that sucks and is unused and buff it to still suck and still be unused?

 

This. So many times this. You are claiming that this change would still leave the sage's damage weak, so how would that ever change anything? You would still be playing unwisely if you engeged in melee, because your ranged abilities are more effective.

 

Also, you need to accept that thereis a difference between lore and game balance. If lore were correct to its fullest extent, throwing a large rock would one shot a guy, being shot by even a single blaster bolt would aleast cripple you unless you were wearing a lot of armour. Using a saber would kill everyone, instantly, anyway. The list could go on.

 

You will have to accept that you're playing a mage, because you are. This is an MMO , not a movie (see the paragraph above.)

 

Why exactly do you wangt this? You're saying that your ideal would make no difference to balance, so there wuld be no change? Your whole concept is entirely confusing.

 

Also, thrash is an ability that shadows have before level 10, so your comment of "grafting it onto the sage" is untrue. It would then do around the same damage as a shadow presumably at least.

[Bankingclan]

1) If a melee is in your face and you have no CC off CD, you're going to die no matter your damage output as there is absolutely no way to fight back at melee range. All other classes have some kind of self sufficiently if jumped except the Sage/Sorc, the Sage/Sorc is forced to rely on their premade for support.

 

2) Force abilities will always be more powerful anyway.

 

 

Except, if melee abilities are ineffective but your force abilities remain more powerful..... Well, force abilities have no minimum range, there is no need to buff melee because you can still use your powerful abilities. Right? For example, you could use project, if the enemy is standard, it will be stunned and you can retreat.

 

Also, which ranged classes have a viable option with no CDs in a melee environment?

Edited January 1, 2012 by Bankingclan

[Prvtdonut]

For the record, someone said that Sages have the weakest resource regeneration of all the classes. That is wrong. They have one of the best, if not the best, coupled with exceptionally high resources in the first place.

 

Seer sages have Crit on Healing Trance to proc free Noble Sacrifice. TK has Disruption stack Force Regen. Not sure what Balance has, but it seems more PVP ish, and I haven't specced into it.

[smartalectwo]

Speaking of the 'mythos'.

 

As pointed out by a rather infamous internet review of the prequels, one of the things that made ESB Yoda 'magical' was that he was a tiny little goblin-man - but he had vast, unseen power that went beyond the physical, because he was a master of the Force.

 

Sages draw on that aspect of the mythos. Training in the use of a lightsaber is just one way to understand and use the Force. Lots of Jedi took other paths. Scholars, healers, diplomats, agricultural specialists, architects, mystics. The weedy-looking ones who spend their days meditating and reading and contemplating and having cerebral debates about philosophy, rather than training for combat.

 

And when the going gets tough, they kick ***. With their wills, not with their bodies.

 

We're one of those guys. Giving the Sage extra lightsaber attacks or power misses the point of the Sage archetype. As the Sage progresses, they rely less and less on the lightsaber and that's just how it should be. If it's not what you signed up for then fair enough, but if it's lightsaber awesomeness you want, this game has plenty of that.

Edited January 1, 2012 by smartalectwo

[Samaul]

Sages and Sorcs are squishy as hell. making Double Strike/Whatever the IQ has, will not break the game in PvP given that that Sorc/Sage will still go down in about 3-4 GCDs from any competent damage spec class.

 

Jedi isn't a mage and Star Wars isn't WoW. I too am disappointed to find out that I'm essentially playing WoW's Priest with a Lightsabre. People who whine about a Double strike buff ignore the following:

 

1) If a melee is in your face and you have no CC off CD, you're going to die no matter your damage output as there is absolutely no way to fight back at melee range. All other classes have some kind of self sufficiently if jumped except the Sage/Sorc, the Sage/Sorc is forced to rely on their premade for support.

 

2) Force abilities will always be more powerful anyway.

 

3) Let's face it, with the Sage/Sorc's defensive capabilities, being in melee range in PvE and PvP is always a horrible idea anyway.

 

4) Due to the amount of mobility that damage classes have, kiting in this game is a worthless strategy so I have to say this again: all other ranged classes have some way of defending themselves at melee range for if they get jumped. A buffed Double Strike would do nothing to give Sages/Sorcs the ability to fight back like that against a competent opponent but it would be something.

 

This. Great post.

[Samaul]

Speaking of the 'mythos'.

 

As pointed out by a rather infamous internet review of the prequels, one of the things that made ESB Yoda 'magical' was that he was a tiny little goblin-man - but he had vast, unseen power that went beyond the physical, because he was a master of the Force.

 

Sages draw on that aspect of the mythos. Training in the use of a lightsaber is just one way to understand and use the Force. Lots of Jedi took other paths. Scholars, healers, diplomats, agricultural specialists, architects, mystics. The weedy-looking ones who spend their days meditating and reading and contemplating and having cerebral debates about philosophy, rather than training for combat.

 

And when the going gets tough, they kick ***. With their wills, not with their bodies.

 

We're one of those guys. Giving the Sage extra lightsaber attacks or power misses the point of the Sage archetype. As the Sage progresses, they rely less and less on the lightsaber and that's just how it should be. If it's not what you signed up for then fair enough, but if it's lightsaber awesomeness you want, this game has plenty of that.

 

Yoda is a bad lore example of a sage. Yoda was a blademaster.

[smartalectwo]

Yoda is a bad lore example of a sage. Yoda was a blademaster.

 

True, but he didn't fulfil that role in ESB. He's a good example of the archetype, there.

[Gerudan]

Not sure what Balance has, but it seems more PVP ish, and I haven't specced into it.

 

They can reg force through the talent Psychic Barrier.

 

 

And Yoda and the Emperor should never have wield a Lightsaber.

Edited January 1, 2012 by Gerudan

[Samaul]

They can reg force through the talent Psychic Barrier.

 

 

And Yoda and the Emperor should never have wield a Lightsaber.

 

Write a letter to Lucas Arts and tell them to remove their Lightsabres.

[IronFirewind]

Except, if melee abilities are ineffective but your force abilities remain more powerful..... Well, force abilities have no minimum range, there is no need to buff melee because you can still use your powerful abilities. Right? For example, you could use project, if the enemy is standard, it will be stunned and you can retreat.

 

Also, which ranged classes have a viable option with no CDs in a melee environment?

 

Smuggler, Trooper, Imperial Agent and Bounty Hunters all say hi. All of them have viable abilities to use to fight back in melee with though obviously how effectively they can do it depends on spec.

 

That said I've lost count of the number of times I've been jumped from stealth by an Op/Assassin on my full Sawbones Scoundrel and completely destroyed that stealther. On my Sage if an Assassin or Op jumps me I'm pretty much never going to get them off me if my team's too busy to help.

 

The only other option is to change Sorc/Sage animations to use the Sabre more but that would involve getting all of the motion capture people back together for the sake of a couple of animations.

[PinnyFox]

Gotta love how everyone saying no has not read the OP at all, and only actually read the thread title. Despite the OP constantly saying "even if the sage melee was given this change, they wouldn't be unstoppable juggernauts capable of fighting at range, melee, and have healing" everyone is still constantly saying "The sage shouldn't be an unstoppable juggernaut capable of fighting at range, melee and have healing."

 

My opinion? If the changes don't make it so that even with 2 lightsaber abilities the sage becomes better off as a melee class, sure, why not?

 

Also:

That said I've lost count of the number of times I've been jumped from stealth by an Op/Assassin on my full Sawbones Scoundrel and completely destroyed that stealther.

 

Sorry to say, but unless those operative/assassins were TERRIBLE at playing the game, there is no way for your sawbones specced scoundrel to be able to take them on. Unless of course they were like level 10 and you level 30

Edited January 1, 2012 by PinnyFox

[Bankingclan]

Smuggler, Trooper, Imperial Agent and Bounty Hunters all say hi. All of them have viable abilities to use to fight back in melee with though obviously how effectively they can do it depends on spec.

 

That said I've lost count of the number of times I've been jumped from stealth by an Op/Assassin on my full Sawbones Scoundrel and completely destroyed that stealther. On my Sage if an Assassin or Op jumps me I'm pretty much never going to get them off me if my team's too busy to help.

 

The only other option is to change Sorc/Sage animations to use the Sabre more but that would involve getting all of the motion capture people back together for the sake of a couple of animations.

 

The classes you have named have options to do this, and those opotions are not from pure range classes. The sage is a pure ranged class.

 

If an operative is at range with a sage, the sage wil stand a good chance, because not all an operative's abilities are available to him. If a sage faced an operatice in melee, the operative would stand a good chance.

 

This is MMO balance.

 

And even though we may not have stock strike or jet punch, we do have stuns and knockbacks to get back to range. That is what we are meant to do.

 

Also, a commando will not use his melee abilities in melee, he will do the same. A sniper would do the same, a mercenary too. These are pure range classes, hence their nature.

[EcrirTwyLar]

I don't see why Willpower shouldn't affect the no-cost attack. I can understand the argument that the rest of the damage tool-set is balanced around having no viable no-cost attack at present but it would be easy enough to re-balance it accordingly.

 

One option would be to include something in the Seer tree that extended the range of Sabre Strike. It does have the drawback that Sabre Throw has become something of a class defining ability and so may not be given up lightly...

 

X

 

I agree with this. Besides, doesn't every other class have a weapon that has it's damage based off of their primary stat? There are times when I do want to throw in some damage, but I don't necessarily want to waste the pool I use for healing and we do not have even a semi-effective non pool using attack like probably every other class in the game.

 

The question is... Do other ranged AC/Specs have non-pool using attacks that scale with their primary stat? If so, then the sage should to. If that one non-pool using attack is a melee attack, that is actually a disadvantage more than it is an advantage because we would have to close to within melee range to use it. I'm guessing a trooper or smugger's non-pool attack does just as much in melee range as it does outside of melee range. But because the sage is a Jedi, I think many of us would be ok with our non-pool using attack being our lightsaber (A melee attack).

Edited January 1, 2012 by EcrirTwyLar

[EcrirTwyLar]

Also, a commando will not use his melee abilities in melee, he will do the same. A sniper would do the same, a mercenary too. These are pure range classes, hence their nature.

 

Of course. Because they are at a disadvantage if they stay in melee range against a melee class. But, if they were to use those abilities... I bet they are effected by their primary attribute.