Just how badly do forumites want Pazaak? Pretty damned badly, apparently!

[Malastare]

Under MOST circumstances, I would agree with the entirety of this post. MOST. But we're talking about a mainstay feature of the Star Wars universe

 

Sorry, but pazaak is not a mainstay of the Star Wars universe. I would comfortably bet that only a small percentage of Star Wars fans could even recognize it, much less remember the rules. It has no presence in the movies or TV shows, or any video game outside of the Bioware series. Even in the EU, it is barely mentioned.

 

That doesn't mean it shouldn't be added, just that it's not nearly as important to the universe as you suggest.

 

...that the developer already has experience with, knew its popularity and even had an acceptable client ready to go (unless Obsidian got pissy about its IP or there were glaring incompatibilities between HeroEngine and Odyssey).

 

"Glaring incompatibilities" is an understatement.

 

In short: Software doesn't work like that. In the vast majority of situations, you can't copy code from one game to another.

 

In long: Game code is almost always tied very tightly to a particular framework (often referred to as the "engine"). Even in cases where you can copy code from one engine to the other, it is nearly always a bad idea, as it is a recipe for bad performance and unexpected bugs. Even if the SWTOR and KoTOR engines were similar, using KoTOR code would still be largely useless as KoTOR is a single-player game (all code runs on the local PC) and SWTOR is an MMO (UI code runs on local PC, game event code runs on the remote server). To port the KoTOR code to SWTOR, you'd need to split the code into client and server parts, create an interface between them, integrate that interface with the existing game communication, and then test it thoroughly. In the end, you'd end up re-designing everything except for the easiest parts of the game. And the effort of trying to keep those parts intact would likely be more expensive than if you'd just done it from scratch in the beginning.

[Sidenti]

Let us know when you can link a different POSTER to each word. A single obsessed blowhard posting again and again on the subject is not evidence of any substantial desire for the feature in the player base, and your results could be caused by one such blowhard -- I didn't bother to click through and check (life's too short.)

 

And I believe we are all aware of such forum blowhards.

 

I wasn't even trying to do that, but apparently I almost DID do this without even realizing. It seems only four names repeat. (I could be wrong. I didn't check all that closely given the amount of work I already put into it.) -bp

[Sidenti]

Responses in orange.

 

Sorry, but pazaak is not a mainstay of the Star Wars universe. I would comfortably bet that only a small percentage of Star Wars fans could even recognize it, much less remember the rules. It has no presence in the movies or TV shows, or any video game outside of the Bioware series. Even in the EU, it is barely mentioned. Pazaak has been a part of the Star Wars universe since 2003 with its introduction in Star Wars: Knights Of The Old Republic. Star Wars as a concept has existed since 1977. Pazaak, therefore, has existed in the Star Wars universe for nearly 30 percent of the time we've even had the idea to tickle our fancies and tease our imaginations. Pazaak is not AS ubiquitous a mention as Sabaac, or as old, but it's been there for a while now. So don't get too comfortable with that bet.

 

That doesn't mean it shouldn't be added, just that it's not nearly as important to the universe as you suggest. Or as trivial as YOU suggest.

 

 

 

"Glaring incompatibilities" is an understatement.

 

In short: Software doesn't work like that. In the vast majority of situations, you can't copy code from one game to another. I'm aware it's not a simple copy-paste, nor was it ever reasonably inferred I believed that. But if it makes you feel better, I agree that one simply can't copy code from one engine to another. For your own clarification purposes, I was referring to whether or not the former engine could handle what the latter did when presenting the feature 11 years ago.

 

In long: Game code is almost always tied very tightly to a particular framework (often referred to as the "engine"). Even in cases where you can copy code from one engine to the other, it is nearly always a bad idea, as it is a recipe for bad performance and unexpected bugs. Even if the SWTOR and KoTOR engines were similar, using KoTOR code would still be largely useless as KoTOR is a single-player game (all code runs on the local PC) and SWTOR is an MMO (UI code runs on local PC, game event code runs on the remote server). To port the KoTOR code to SWTOR, you'd need to split the code into client and server parts, create an interface between them, integrate that interface with the existing game communication, and then test it thoroughly. In the end, you'd end up re-designing everything except for the easiest parts of the game. And the effort of trying to keep those parts intact would likely be more expensive than if you'd just done it from scratch in the beginning. Which begs the question: Why wasn't it done from the beginning? Or during any major expansion? Why does a seemingly easy minigame to implement still get the Cold War treatment from On High? Are you not curious at all? -bp

[wainot-keel]

Sorry, but pazaak is not a mainstay of the Star Wars universe. I would comfortably bet that only a small percentage of Star Wars fans could even recognize it, much less remember the rules.

 

Yup, you can lump me in with that other bunch. I have no idea what pazaak is and only heard of it here on these forums.

Edited May 19, 2014 by wainot-keel

[BuriDogshin]

I wonder what implementation of pazaak would satisfy people ...

 

For example:

• would a PvE version be enough, or do you want PvP ?
  
• Would a 2D pop-up window be enough, or do you want a fully-voiced 3D version played over a table with a sexy dealer of your choice of race and sex (give me BT4 female twi'lek voiced by SCORPIO's VA 4TW! I'd sink credits just to enjoy her dealing the cards!) ?
  
• Do you want to be able to have your own side-deck or do you build a new one from a random deal every time you play? If you have your own sidedeck, is it bound? BtL? Bought off the CM? Won by playing Pazaak?
  
• Should there be a pazaak based story arc to go with the game?
  
• Do you want a pazaak leaderboard?
  
• Should playing pazaak give rewards that matter away from the pazaak table (custom mounts only winnable through pazaak, for example, or BtL gear bought with tokens won at pazaak?)?
  

 

It's easy to say "I want pazaak" but would a bare-bones stripped-down 2D immersion-breaking CM-driven version with no real linkage into the rest of the game make you happy? I think the advocates should identify what they mean when they say "I want pazaak." What rewards, both aesthetic (i.e. the above-mentioned dealer) and concrete (leaderboard rank, exclusive mounts, BtL shells, etc) do you want?

 

A note on the dealer - please appreciate that many of the "rewards," from a psychological perspective, in any game are things that happen all the time that you enjoy. The attack animations in the game are designed to be rewards, for example - that is why I like Orbital Strike better than Freighter Flyby because I find the animation for OS more enjoyable - WHAM WHAM WHAM! A well-made pazaak game would have such rewards. Having an elegant and beautiful dealer voiced by SCORPIO's VA say "Well played" would be such a reward - for me anyway. YMMV.

 

TL;DR: How much effort would BW have to put into a pazaak mini-game to make pazaak advocates happy? It could be anything from a clickable 2D pop-up window with little or no animation to a full GSF level implementation.

[TUXs]

TL;DR: How much effort would BW have to put into a pazaak mini-game to make pazaak advocates happy? It could be anything from a clickable 2D pop-up window with little or no animation to a full GSF level implementation.

 

Seeing what they decided to call "slot machines", I would hope more effort than they gave there.

[Sidenti]

I wonder what implementation of pazaak would satisfy people ...

 

For example:

• would a PvE version be enough, or do you want PvP ?
  
• Would a 2D pop-up window be enough, or do you want a fully-voiced 3D version played over a table with a sexy dealer of your choice of race and sex (give me BT4 female twi'lek voiced by SCORPIO's VA 4TW! I'd sink credits just to enjoy her dealing the cards!) ?
  
• Do you want to be able to have your own side-deck or do you build a new one from a random deal every time you play? If you have your own sidedeck, is it bound? BtL? Bought off the CM? Won by playing Pazaak?
  
• Should there be a pazaak based story arc to go with the game?
  
• Do you want a pazaak leaderboard?
  
• Should playing pazaak give rewards that matter away from the pazaak table (custom mounts only winnable through pazaak, for example, or BtL gear bought with tokens won at pazaak?)?
  

 

It's easy to say "I want pazaak" but would a bare-bones stripped-down 2D immersion-breaking CM-driven version with no real linkage into the rest of the game make you happy? I think the advocates should identify what they mean when they say "I want pazaak." What rewards, both aesthetic (i.e. the above-mentioned dealer) and concrete (leaderboard rank, exclusive mounts, BtL shells, etc) do you want?

 

A note on the dealer - please appreciate that many of the "rewards," from a psychological perspective, in any game are things that happen all the time that you enjoy. The attack animations in the game are designed to be rewards, for example - that is why I like Orbital Strike better than Freighter Flyby because I find the animation for OS more enjoyable - WHAM WHAM WHAM! A well-made pazaak game would have such rewards. Having an elegant and beautiful dealer voiced by SCORPIO's VA say "Well played" would be such a reward - for me anyway. YMMV.

 

TL;DR: How much effort would BW have to put into a pazaak mini-game to make pazaak advocates happy? It could be anything from a clickable 2D pop-up window with little or no animation to a full GSF level implementation.

 

I would be perfectly happy with a straight-up KotOR implementation to start. Even to finish, but I'm probably in the minority there. (PvP Pazaak sounds hella fun.) -bp

[BuriDogshin]

I wasn't even trying to do that, but apparently I almost DID do this without even realizing. It seems only four names repeat. (I could be wrong. I didn't check all that closely given the amount of work I already put into it.) -bp

Ok, fair enough. Now about your criteria for inclusion, "mentions the word pazaak:"

• Does that only include original (not quoted) text?
  
• And did it not also include people who do not want pazaak and bother to say so?
  
• Wouldn't it include this post, which does nothing to indicate that I desire pazaak?
  

 

Frankly, you have done nothing to show that more than a tiny number of people really want pazaak.

All you have is a showing that the word pops up, which could also mean people hate the idea.

 

Here, let me explain by analogy: go repeat your methodology using the world "nerf" and see if that shows how many people want things in the game nerfed. (Of course we all know it won't show any such thing because many uses of the word "nerf" are complaints about something being nerfed, not requests for a nerf.)

 

TL;DR: "There's lies, damn lies, and (improperly constructed) statistics." paraphrasing Twain I think.

[BuriDogshin]

I would be perfectly happy with a straight-up KotOR implementation to start. Even to finish, but I'm probably in the minority there. (PvP Pazaak sounds hella fun.) -bp

And do you think such an implementation would attract any new players to the game? I would not bother with it myself, I can play 2D solitaire card games already.

 

Such a stripped bare-bones 2D version seems only to serve existing pazaak fans, and it seems a bit incongruous with SWTOR's voiced 3D norm. Sounds like a small investment with an even smaller payoff; if so, is it worth BW's time?

[BuriDogshin]

Seeing what they decided to call "slot machines", I would hope more effort [into pazaak] than they gave there.

 

And there's the rub - if BW doesn't invest enough, it will be worse than doing nothing at all. As yet, we do not even have an indication from more than one pazadvocate of what "enough" would be.

 

And we have not even touched on how you would bot-proof the pazaak game to prevent it from being farmed, if it gives any kind of reward.

[Bluejayoo]

Too bad really. SWTOR is an amazing MMO and having some kind of social mini game would help with one of SWTOR's major problems - lack of socialization.

 

But I have to agree with other posters that have stated we will probably never see it. All of the new stuff that has been released has been iterations on features mostly already in the game. I doubt we will see anything that requires significant extensions to the engine to make possible. I would guess EA is focused on making what ever they can off their existing investment in SWTOR and not really focusing on aggressive growth.

 

I wonder how things would have been different if they had delayed shipping the game by 6 months and not released the mess we saw at launch. In it's current form I think SWTOR would have been a success.

[Sidenti]

Damn! You plan on analyzing the topic this closely as well? XD Your replies are in orange.

 

Ok, fair enough. Now about your criteria for inclusion, "mentions the word pazaak:"

• Does that only include original (not quoted) text?
  
• And did it not also include people who do not want pazaak and bother to say so?
  
• Wouldn't it include this post, which does nothing to indicate that I desire pazaak?
  

I thought I was pretty clear about the search criteria in the first post, but sure! I can sum it up again. I looked for the word "Pazaak" in the title of the post only, and did my best to ignore things like an advert for a Pazaak-based guild and one other that popped up that had the title but wasn't exactly related. If you're wondering if this is a scientific poll, I can assure you it isn't.

 

Frankly, you have done nothing to show that more than a tiny number of people really want pazaak.

All you have is a showing that the word pops up, which could also mean people hate the idea. Words like "tiny" and "huge" are exceptionally subjective. You may think I've shown a "tiny" number of people who support the idea. I know I've shown six pages of Pazaak-related posts over the course of at least three years. Potato, potahto, spud gun ammo.

 

Here, let me explain by analogy: go repeat your methodology using the world "nerf" and see if that shows how many people want things in the game nerfed. (Of course we all know it won't show any such thing because many uses of the word "nerf" are complaints about something being nerfed, not requests for a nerf.) Your challenge presents certain incompatibilities - searching for the word "nerf" will not turn up specific nerf requests. Now, if you were asking me to look for, say, requests to nerf stunlocks, then we're getting into more of an even comparison. Of course, it bears mentioning that I don't give a freshly-baked f*&^ about nerfing anything. Probably the same attitude you have toward Pazaak.

 

TL;DR: "There's lies, damn lies, and (improperly constructed) statistics." paraphrasing Twain I think. You are, kind of, but you've done so inappropriately. As a matter of fact, if either one of us is guilty of this particular facet of the human condition, it's you for making concrete claims with nothing more than what you PERCEIVE to be the case.

 

At least I use qualifying terms like "apparently". Those are important. -bp

[Sidenti]

Standard format for replying, as usual.

 

And do you think such an implementation would attract any new players to the game? I would not bother with it myself, I can play 2D solitaire card games already.NEW players? I imagine we'd get any who played KotOR and don't play this. We'd probably also attract a random assortment of new RPers and casual gamers (I bet inroads can easily be made into Neverwinter Online's population given their terrible handling of social and PvP implementation), but I can't sit here and tell you conclusively that adding Pazaak will guarantee NEW players being added to our ranks.

 

Now, OLD players... we might have something there.

 

But you didn't ask what YOU wanted, or what YOU thought would be necessary. You asked what would meet MY criteria of acceptability, and I told you. If you don't bother with it, fine. I doubt implementation of a minigame will interrupt your preferred experience, as most minigames aren't central to any particular storylines or missions.I can't imagine this one would be either.

 

Such a stripped bare-bones 2D version seems only to serve existing pazaak fans, and it seems a bit incongruous with SWTOR's voiced 3D norm. Sounds like a small investment with an even smaller payoff; if so, is it worth BW's time?I can't answer that. I'm not Bioware. But I know that it'd worth MY time. And money. -bp

[Malastare]

Pazaak has been a part of the Star Wars universe since 2003 with its introduction in Star Wars: Knights Of The Old Republic. Star Wars as a concept has existed since 1977. Pazaak, therefore, has existed in the Star Wars universe for nearly 30 percent of the time we've even had the idea to tickle our fancies and tease our imaginations. Pazaak is not AS ubiquitous a mention as Sabaac, or as old, but it's been there for a while now. So don't get too comfortable with that bet.

 

Fun with statistics:

 

--- Blue Milk has been around since 1977. It has existed in the Star Wars universe for nearly 100 percent of the time we've even known about the Star Wars universe. I expect that every fan is familiar with blue milk and that it would play a central role in this game, since "time since creation" is a very accurate measure of "importance to a literary universe".

 

--- Pazaak has played a minor role in zero movies, and showed up in TCW almost zero times, clocking in a grand total of nearly zero minutes of screen time. Comparatively, Blue Milk has managed to get somewhere more than 10,000% more screen time.

 

--- Ignoring instances where only the name was mentioned, Pazaak has appeared in two games and 5 books or short stories. Blue Milk has been included in 12 books or short stories and 2 movies. If we include name references, Pazaak's count explodes to a whopping 12 works, while Blue Milk manages to scrape together only 31 references.

 

--- Pazaak has inspired two websites to create web-based games. Blue Milk inspired an award winning fan movie, has been referenced a number of times in various Star Wars comedy sketches, fansite discussions, various other web-culture sites.

 

--- Pazaak has 67,000 Google hits. Blue Milk has 588,000.

 

Conclusion: Blue Milk is more of a mainstay of the Star Wars universe than Pazaak is.

 

Or as trivial as YOU suggest.

 

That's your hyperbole, not mine. I never said it was trivial. I said that the bulk of the SW fanbase has no idea what it is, and I stand by that judgement.

 

For your own clarification purposes, I was referring to whether or not the former engine could handle what the latter did when presenting the feature 11 years ago.

 

Noted.

 

Also for clarification: No one has ever suggested that display or computational difficulty had any impact on the inclusion of Pazaak.

 

Which begs the question: Why wasn't it done from the beginning? Or during any major expansion? Why does a seemingly easy minigame to implement still get the Cold War treatment from On High? Are you not curious at all?

 

Because it takes time and resources. In software development --especially game development-- you are always balancing the value of a feature versus the impact it has on your development schedule. For fans who have zero knowledge of developing, the situation always looks clear: "Oooh. Cool Feature! Add it in before we release!" For developers or anyone who has experience, it gets seen as: "Hmm. Interesting feature. Is it worth the $150,000 that we'll spend in developer time and schedule changes?" What if adding the feature means that you can't finish in time to be ready for some other team? Do you reschedule both teams? Is it worth pushing back a delivery date? What if you have only contracted some developers for the next two weeks? What if your testing department is running on strict timelines and you delaying your schedule one week means you have to wait four weeks to get QA time again?

 

The issue here is that this "seemingly easy" minigame only seems easy. It's not. It only seems easy because you don't have any experience in actual software development ...and that's fine, I don't expect everyone in the world to be a developer. I do, however, hope that they listen to developers when they're discussing development. I've related a story about an actual bug that I fixed and how a two line bug fix took some 60 man-hours of work over four weeks. Of that, only 20 minutes or so was actual coding. The rest was taken up by QA, build scheduling, integration and release management. Your "seemingly easy" minigame would require its very own QA, beta testing, and integration work.

 

Now that the game has been released, there hasn't been much talk about it because soon after release, developers said that they really wanted to add in Pazaak, but that --shockingly enough-- it would take a decent amount of time and organization and that if/when it got added, it would be in an expansion that they'd advertise. So... if that's still true, they can't talk about it here, because it would be revenue-generating information and the and (if I understand correctly) the FTC requires that any announcement of revenue-generating changes to EA's products be made available to the public in an official release.

 

Commenting on a forum thread is not an official release.

[Darslk]

It wasn't done from the beginning because they thought the amount of time put into making it wouldn't give the value they could get elsewhere, with the same amount of time. I'm not saying their decision was correct or not, but that is the reason why.

 

Anyhow, I'd rather have Sabaac then Pazaak.

[DOHboy]

It wasn't done from the beginning because they thought the amount of time put into making it wouldn't give the value they could get elsewhere, with the same amount of time. I'm not saying their decision was correct or not, but that is the reason why.

 

Anyhow, I'd rather have Sabaac then Pazaak.

 

Sabaac is getting the shaft from Pazaak..

[Malastare]

Sabaac is getting the shaft from Pazaak..

 

While I am much more familiar with Pazaak than Sabacc, I'm at least willing to agree that Sabacc has a much longer and richer history with Star Wars than Pazaak.

 

That said, I still think we'll see Pazaak first. Its a simpler game.

[TUXs]

While I don't really care if they add Pazaak to this game, I think there's a strong case to be made for players wanting more social mini-games added to SWTOR (which Pazaak is). I believe the whole slots thing could be the start of more things of this nature and I see it as a positive step towards adding more mini-games in the future.

[LordArtemis]

Is the game actually still losing subs?

 

If so it is obvious to me the F2P system is not doing the job intended, nor is GS. Did they release their current sub numbers?

 

There is MUCH they could do to reverse that trend IMO...I have a whole slew of suggestions naturally hehe.