Is SWTOR still canon?

[OddballEasyEight]

That's a good point. You just have a fundamentally different way of enjoying fiction, which isn't wrong by any means. My inclination is to interpret the material based on the material itself, rather than expanding upon it in my imagination. That may be unimaginative, but after all, one of the points of fiction is to bring you into a world that you otherwise wouldn't imagine. So, I suppose it would be self-deception for me, but not necessarily for you.

 

I have to ask, since your enjoyment of Star Wars seems to be soo rooted in what is and is-not canon, have you ever watched a fan-movie or read a piece of fan-fiction set in Star Wars and enjoyed it?

Have you seen Troops? (the cops parody set in Star Wars)

Or anything else for that matter.

 

Because if you have and you enjoyed it, then you have nothing to fear about this game not being canon.

 

If you did and you didn't enjoy any of them simply because they were not canon... well then I don't know what to say. You have a serious quirk then...

[Liamo]

I have to ask, since your enjoyment of Star Wars seems to be soo rooted in what is and is-not canon, have you ever watched a fan-movie or read a piece of fan-fiction set in Star Wars and enjoyed it?

Have you seen Troops? (the cops parody set in Star Wars)

Or anything else for that matter.

 

Because if you have and you enjoyed it, then you have nothing to fear about this game not being canon.

 

If you did and you didn't enjoy any of them simply because they were not canon... well then I don't know what to say. You have a serious quirk then...

He isn't the only one. I have watched fan fiction and Troops, even Robot Chicken/Family Guy Star Wars and got a chuckle out of them-but I am not going to invest time and energy into them. Playing this game, for me, was my way of being part of a bigger universe.

To compare it to sports, if the NFL was disbanded-all but the founding teams-would you still expect the same amount of excitement, when the non-NFL teams played? No. It wouldn't be the same. You might enjoy the game like you would a Big Mac but you wouldn't get invested into it-because it no longer was part of the bigger whole.

[GratuaCuun]

I'm not really concerned what's canon and what isn't - I wasn't even that concerned when NuTrek spun off into it's own universe and the Old Series, TNG, VOY and DS9 were left to rot quietly in the wings. What concerns me is that this is it - this is the end of these characters.

 

Back up for a second - stop obsessing over which category a story is (Legends or Regions or Circles or Squares or whatever) under and think about what's been said so far. There's not going to be anymore stories about these characters - this game; this MMO they're producing... this may very well be the LAST of the stories based around the Old Republic. Since this era has been tossed into the Legends bin along with the Legacies era and the Vong era and everything else; and because the Legends re-branding states that there will only be NEW stories about the NEW 'modern era' of Star Wars... then that means that there won't be any more stories, comics, novels... NOTHING about characters within the Legends branding

 

There won't be any more stories about Grand Admiral Thrawn. There won't be any more stories about Mara Jade. There won't be any more stories about Kyle Katarn. Marka Ragnos, Revan, Visas, Mandalore the Ultimate, Ben Skywalker, Ludo Kresh, Nomi Sunrider - that's all done now. New era - new rules. The old has been discarded forever and won't be continued. We'll never find out what rounds up Luke and Ben's hunt for the Mortis monolith. We'll never read about Jania's first child - or how her future with Fel turns out. We'll never get to see Jacen's daughter take the throne of Hapes and usher in this supposed era of peace they kept talking about. We'll never see a new Old Republic comic series that continues from where the last one finished off - these stories, these characters - they're finished now. All that mattered - everything that was going to lead to new stories - has been branded as a 'legend' and will go no further.

 

That concerns me, that bothers me. I'm sorry that I actually read as someone said on a tweet 'who the hell READS anymore?!' - I'm afraid I'm one of those people... I'm one of those people who enjoyed all those characters and all those stories and wanted to see where the writers would go with them.

 

But then I wanted to see a new Star Trek series - cameos from the past characters handing over to the new like Kirk and his crew got to hand over to Picard... now all those characters, all those stories... they're just finished. They're just done. You can read the books if you want to - but the books are coming fewer and fewer now that the interest is primarily focused on Nutrek; and there's SO LITTLE set in my favorite era - the Original Movie era with the older TOS crew... and less and less will come as Nutrek continues. I wanted an ending to those stories - to those characters. Now they're just shelved... soon there won't even be the books to enjoy. This new 'modern era' of star wars has ended every character and story that I'd come to know and love - and the new movies aren't even out yet. And unlike Star Trek, there won't even be any books or comics to enjoy about the original EU stuff - it's just... done.

 

'People who alter or destroy works of art and our cultural heritage for profit or as an exercise of power are barbarians' ~ George Lucas, 1988

 

Ironic, isn't it?

Edited April 30, 2014 by GratuaCuun

[TravelersWay]

That's a good point. You just have a fundamentally different way of enjoying fiction, which isn't wrong by any means. My inclination is to interpret the material based on the material itself, rather than expanding upon it in my imagination. That may be unimaginative, but after all, one of the points of fiction is to bring you into a world that you otherwise wouldn't imagine. So, I suppose it would be self-deception for me, but not necessarily for you.

 

I totally get where you are coming from. It's the very reason that IP's like Star Wars, Star Trek, Firefly, et al. get to be so popular, even if they aren't "popular" so to speak. It's because those worlds are so massive and immersed with great potential that they draw us in, and it's important that what happens in them makes sense. I do get irked with things that don't make sense from a continuity standpoint or with "reboots" (which to me, is simply lack of imagination and skill on the part of the writer to actually create a good story that still adheres to canon and pre-established "norms").

 

I think both Star Wars and Star Trek have suffered from canon overload, though ST to a lesser extent, or at least it seemed to me when I was still heavily involved in the lore. Part of the problem was that Almighty George himself made a few errors in deciding what would be allowed or not (again, the SWHS). People can argue that SW is his creation, so he can do with it as he willed (and now it's Disney's turn). But in all reality, since to err is human, even the creator of an immersive IP can make decisions that don't really enhance or benefit that IP in the long run.

 

That's why I think that this purge of the canon is necessary for Star Wars. We need to get back to the basics. But by doing so, that doesn't lessen the quality of the good EU stuff. That's what I am trying to get at. Even with the Star Trek movies (though riddled with problems and plot holes of their own accord), they are entertaining on their own, even if a die hard Trekker thinks they are garbage in terms of lore. The same can be said of the EU - in truth, much of it is garbage, and worse than a lot of pure fan fiction out there, and it needed to go. However, that doesn't lessen the quality of things like Zahn's books if you take them on their own accord.

 

But again, there are others, such as yourself, that finds the enjoyment in seeing how the pieces fit into the whole. And ultimately, there is nothing wrong with that. Just make sure that you aren't shortchanging yourself by just looking at the whole forest and not recognizing the better trees in that forest.

[JediMasterAlex]

I have to ask, since your enjoyment of Star Wars seems to be soo rooted in what is and is-not canon, have you ever watched a fan-movie or read a piece of fan-fiction set in Star Wars and enjoyed it?

Have you seen Troops? (the cops parody set in Star Wars)

Or anything else for that matter.

 

Because if you have and you enjoyed it, then you have nothing to fear about this game not being canon.

 

If you did and you didn't enjoy any of them simply because they were not canon... well then I don't know what to say. You have a serious quirk then...

 

I'd like to echo Liamo and reiterate his/her point. I have enjoyed some fan fiction, and I've even made a fan film before. However, I only enjoy them as a sort of novelty, the same way one might enjoy any parody of something he's fond of. I'm not saying such things don't have merit all on their own, but to me (and more importantly, to Lucas/Disney) they just aren't Star Wars. So, when it comes to this game, something that when I play it, I invest a fair amount of time and energy in it, its canonicity matters to me. Playing it now would just seem hollow, unless of course it miraculously is considered canon, but we'll have to wait and see about that.

 

That's why I think that this purge of the canon is necessary for Star Wars. We need to get back to the basics. But by doing so, that doesn't lessen the quality of the good EU stuff. That's what I am trying to get at. Even with the Star Trek movies (though riddled with problems and plot holes of their own accord), they are entertaining on their own, even if a die hard Trekker thinks they are garbage in terms of lore. The same can be said of the EU - in truth, much of it is garbage, and worse than a lot of pure fan fiction out there, and it needed to go. However, that doesn't lessen the quality of things like Zahn's books if you take them on their own accord.

 

But again, there are others, such as yourself, that finds the enjoyment in seeing how the pieces fit into the whole. And ultimately, there is nothing wrong with that. Just make sure that you aren't shortchanging yourself by just looking at the whole forest and not recognizing the better trees in that forest.

 

I certainly can recognize those individual trees and appreciate them. However, I don't think the Zahn books are a very good example. Imagine if someone had never even heard of Star Wars and he read them. Do you think he would enjoy them nearly as much as someone who was very knowledgeable of Star Wars? Possibly, but in most cases I doubt that that would be the case.

 

This game itself is a bit of a special case, because I have played it for so long with the assumption that it was within the continuity (and it was), so now I would find it difficult to play it again knowing what I know now. It isn't as though I think the game is bad all of the sudden, but the main reason that I enjoyed it was because it was Star Wars, and now for all intents and purposes it isn't (again, pending clarification, but I'm not optimistic about this).

 

Also, I'm familiar with at least a majority of EU material, and I don't think I would describe much of it as garbage. Obviously some of it is better than others, but I think that's a bit of an exaggeration.

Edited April 30, 2014 by JediMasterAlex

[Trooperclay]

Call me a fool, but im trying to hope Swtor and its characters are still canon. Apart from my comment about Pre Vizla, Disney basically said everything going forward was canon. Tor is going to have plenty of expansions (with SW content) in the future , which makes me hope that Lucasarts will count it as in the " Going Forward " category, which makes me hope that not only TOR, but KOTOR (which SWTOR is heavily based off) will be considered canon.

[Hell_Kaiser_Fett]

Call me a fool, but im trying to hope Swtor and its characters are still canon. Apart from my comment about Pre Vizla, Disney basically said everything going forward was canon. Tor is going to have plenty of expansions (with SW content) in the future , which makes me hope that Lucasarts will count it as in the " Going Forward " category, which makes me hope that not only TOR, but KOTOR (which SWTOR is heavily based off) will be considered canon.

 

I agree with this completely. Anything in the TOR era, the time right before the prequels, and the Jedi knight stuff with Kyle Katarn are all too good not to be Canon.

[Khevar]

The fact that Lawrence Kasdan is doing the script for VII-IX needs to be taken into account with one's hopes and dreams.

 

The direction the Story Group takes is going to hinge on those scripts. Lawrence is an excellent writer and has a track record with Star Wars V and VI. But I would be very surprised if he has spent much time as a fan in the Expanded Universe.

 

Unless he's read the comics, the books, played the video games, etc. he's going to know practically nothing about the EU. And since he's being given carte blanche to ignore ANY Legends material for the express purpose of writing the best story possible, he may re-write the entire back history of Star Wars (as described in the EU) without even knowing he's doing so.

 

While the Story Group will have plenty of power over future book authors (e.g. no you can't write this because these reasons x, y, z), they're not going to say "No" to Kasdan and Abrams just because they come up with something that invalidates the setting in SWTOR.

[LordArtemis]

Moving away from the status conversation for this game, I will say that something was lost and something gained IMO with the canon "clarification".

 

What was lost was many of the beloved EU characters and their future....but they could become parts of the "canon" if they are used, so not all is lost in this respect. There is still hope.

 

What was gained, however, is the removal of ridiculous items in the EU, some more ridiculous than others, from any consideration of canon. This is great news IMO, as some of the stuff was really REALLY silly.

 

I for one hope that SWTOR is NOT considered canon, due to silly things like "light side Sith".

Edited May 1, 2014 by LordArtemis

[Frybert]

Moving away from the status conversation for this game, I will say that something was lost and something gained IMO with the canon "clarification".

 

What was lost was many of the beloved EU characters and their future....but they could become parts of the "canon" if they are used, so not all is lost in this respect. There is still hope.

 

What was gained, however, is the removal of ridiculous items in the EU, some more ridiculous than others, from any consideration of canon. This is great news IMO, as some of the stuff was really REALLY silly.

 

I for one hope that SWTOR is NOT considered canon, due to silly things like "light side Sith".

 

It was my understanding that the canon choices were the dark side choices for Sith. In that case there were no 'light side Sith'. Same goes that were were no 'dark side Jedi'.

[MasterPromithes]

George lucas is consulting nuff said.

[OddballEasyEight]

The fact that Lawrence Kasdan is doing the script for VII-IX needs to be taken into account with one's hopes and dreams.

 

The direction the Story Group takes is going to hinge on those scripts. Lawrence is an excellent writer and has a track record with Star Wars V and VI. But I would be very surprised if he has spent much time as a fan in the Expanded Universe.

 

Unless he's read the comics, the books, played the video games, etc. he's going to know practically nothing about the EU. And since he's being given carte blanche to ignore ANY Legends material for the express purpose of writing the best story possible, he may re-write the entire back history of Star Wars (as described in the EU) without even knowing he's doing so.

 

While the Story Group will have plenty of power over future book authors (e.g. no you can't write this because these reasons x, y, z), they're not going to say "No" to Kasdan and Abrams just because they come up with something that invalidates the setting in SWTOR.

 

So in other words, it's just like when Lucas ran the show... He didn't care about the EU material at all either and he never read any of it. And he too re-wrote alot of the EU without even knowing about it.

 

So... business as usual?

[Khevar]

So in other words, it's just like when Lucas ran the show... He didn't care about the EU material at all either and he never read any of it. And he too re-wrote alot of the EU without even knowing about it.

 

So... business as usual?

I guess? Not the point I was trying to make.

 

Some people seem to think TOR is safe because it's a longer time ago. Or that the Story Group would try and preserve it. It would only be safe if Lawrence is a fan of the EU and wanted to preserve it.

[ImmortalLowlife]

I'm not really concerned what's canon and what isn't - I wasn't even that concerned when NuTrek spun off into it's own universe and the Old Series, TNG, VOY and DS9 were left to rot quietly in the wings. What concerns me is that this is it - this is the end of these characters.

 

Back up for a second - stop obsessing over which category a story is (Legends or Regions or Circles or Squares or whatever) under and think about what's been said so far. There's not going to be anymore stories about these characters - this game; this MMO they're producing... this may very well be the LAST of the stories based around the Old Republic. Since this era has been tossed into the Legends bin along with the Legacies era and the Vong era and everything else; and because the Legends re-branding states that there will only be NEW stories about the NEW 'modern era' of Star Wars... then that means that there won't be any more stories, comics, novels... NOTHING about characters within the Legends branding

 

There won't be any more stories about Grand Admiral Thrawn. There won't be any more stories about Mara Jade. There won't be any more stories about Kyle Katarn. Marka Ragnos, Revan, Visas, Mandalore the Ultimate, Ben Skywalker, Ludo Kresh, Nomi Sunrider - that's all done now. New era - new rules. The old has been discarded forever and won't be continued. We'll never find out what rounds up Luke and Ben's hunt for the Mortis monolith. We'll never read about Jania's first child - or how her future with Fel turns out. We'll never get to see Jacen's daughter take the throne of Hapes and usher in this supposed era of peace they kept talking about. We'll never see a new Old Republic comic series that continues from where the last one finished off - these stories, these characters - they're finished now. All that mattered - everything that was going to lead to new stories - has been branded as a 'legend' and will go no further.

 

That concerns me, that bothers me. I'm sorry that I actually read as someone said on a tweet 'who the hell READS anymore?!' - I'm afraid I'm one of those people... I'm one of those people who enjoyed all those characters and all those stories and wanted to see where the writers would go with them.

 

But then I wanted to see a new Star Trek series - cameos from the past characters handing over to the new like Kirk and his crew got to hand over to Picard... now all those characters, all those stories... they're just finished. They're just done. You can read the books if you want to - but the books are coming fewer and fewer now that the interest is primarily focused on Nutrek; and there's SO LITTLE set in my favorite era - the Original Movie era with the older TOS crew... and less and less will come as Nutrek continues. I wanted an ending to those stories - to those characters. Now they're just shelved... soon there won't even be the books to enjoy. This new 'modern era' of star wars has ended every character and story that I'd come to know and love - and the new movies aren't even out yet. And unlike Star Trek, there won't even be any books or comics to enjoy about the original EU stuff - it's just... done.

 

'People who alter or destroy works of art and our cultural heritage for profit or as an exercise of power are barbarians' ~ George Lucas, 1988

 

Ironic, isn't it?

 

Agrees 110%!!!! THAT'S my biggest issue with this whole situation

[LordArtemis]

I do believe this era is likely safe, but I do think that if they do something (like light side Sith) that someone in Disney does not like they will be asked to change it.

[MiaRB]

people still going on about this? its not complicated...

 

lucas was never bound to EU material.

the story group will not be bound to any EU material.

 

the only real change is, all new content will be coming from the story group so it will be canon, just as if it had come from lucas before he sold to Disney.

 

anyway, if TOR is labeled as legends, then it will be in the same position as it was before, not binding to lucas/story group. if its labeled as story group approved new content then it will be canon. so what is the problem with that?

[TUXs]

'People who alter or destroy works of art and our cultural heritage for profit or as an exercise of power are barbarians' ~ George Lucas, 1988

 

Ironic, isn't it?

 

Whoa...did he really say that?

[ZirusZero]

Whoa...did he really say that?

 

Interesting that he said it after ROTJ was made.

[Apophis_]

Still didn't received any information from BioWare. My question about this issue was ignored during live stream, so I see 2 options here:

1. BioWare has no idea what Lucasfilm is doing, and they are ashamed to admit it

2. BioWare knows that SWTOR is no longer Canon, and they are afraid that if they will admit it, people will leave

 

I don't want to wait till the release of Episode VII (or any next movie, or spin-off) to see this game disregarded, and because BioWare/Lucasfilm don't want to provide any statement about this issue, I still have my hopes for it being part of Canon. Annoying, tiresome, unnecesary.

[OddballEasyEight]

Whoa...did he really say that?

 

Yup. He was part of a group lobbying to stop movie companies from releasing "modernized" versions of old classics. Like for example changing the ending of casablanca or releasing a colorized version of the maltese falcon.

 

Very ironic considering his atroci... eeeh... changes to the classics that are the original star wars movies...

[OddballEasyEight]

Still didn't received any information from BioWare. My question about this issue was ignored during live stream, so I see 2 options here:

1. BioWare has no idea what Lucasfilm is doing, and they are ashamed to admit it

2. BioWare knows that SWTOR is no longer Canon, and they are afraid that if they will admit it, people will leave

 

I don't want to wait till the release of Episode VII (or any next movie, or spin-off) to see this game disregarded, and because BioWare/Lucasfilm don't want to provide any statement about this issue, I still have my hopes for it being part of Canon. Annoying, tiresome, unnecesary.

 

There's a third alternative you know.

3. Disney and LucasArts haven't decided yet and forbids Bioware from speaking of it before then.

[DeltaBos]

I've been thinking about this a lot and I realized that this game wouldn't be considered cannon anymore for this really obscure and convoluted line that weirdly ties KoToR to the post ROTJ era. In the new movies, the Yuuzhan Vong war never happened, at least as far as we know. Canderous Ordo tells us in KoToR 1 that he fought Yuuzhan Vong, although he didn't know what he was fighting we just know from the context, but if the Yuuzhan Vong never existed that contradicts Canderous Ordo. So if Canderous fought an enemy that has been wiped from the EU, that would mean he's been wiped from the EU as well. f he's wiped from the EU then half of The Old Republic era events never happened. It's a weird train of thought but that essentially answers the question, almost nothing in The Old Republic could still be cannon. Edited May 17, 2014 by DeltaBos

[Lunafox]

I don't see why anything from Swtor wouldn't be canon. None of the movies deal with this time frame, so it affects nothing they do/have done.

 

I'd worry more if they decide to make movies in this time period. As far as I'm concerned, this is canon.

[Deewe]

I don't see why anything from Swtor wouldn't be canon.

Top of my head

1. Rakghoul Plague (WoW carbon copy)
   
2. Masses of Siths as Jedi, even worse: light sided ones.
   
3. Myriads of Chiss especially in the alliance
   
4. Force choke working on droids
   
5. Characters and droids better (force) jumping than force masters
   
6. Sith masters requested to sweep the floor for peon
   
7. Gear that really don't belong to a SW setting, whatever the timeline.
   

 

KOTOR did a great job by mostly bending the SW universe, but SWTOR trampled the lore.

[Lunafox]

Top of my head

1. Rakghoul Plague (WoW carbon copy)
   
2. Masses of Siths as Jedi, even worse: light sided ones.
   
3. Myriads of Chiss especially in the alliance
   
4. Force choke working on droids
   
5. Characters and droids better (force) jumping than force masters
   
6. Sith masters requested to sweep the floor for peon
   
7. Gear that really don't belong to a SW setting, whatever the timeline.
   

 

KOTOR did a great job by mostly bending the SW universe, but SWTOR trampled the lore.

 

When I talk about swtor being canon, I'm not talking about game mechanics, like how you stated about droids jumping and comps jumping better than force masters...that's a game mechanic...and I agree they shouldn't do that.

Don't see why force choke wouldn't work on droids, because you're essentially crushing circuitry that would keep them from functioning properly, just as you'd be crushing the larynx in a humanoid.

Sith being light and dark...well I think people are varying degrees of in terms of darkness, some are more dark than others...so I have no issue with that.

 

Don't really care about Chiss or Voss or what have you...haven't seen any in the movies to my recollection, so they could exist somewhere in the galaxy, we just haven't seen them in the movies. (I know Voss were created by Bioware).

 

What I was referring about canon is more in terms of stories...stuff about the emperor's wrath, about the existence of a dark council...and the various other aspects of the class stories, and other stories that exist in this time frame.

 

The biggest thing about this universe's canon, that I'm surprised you didn't bring up, was that in the movies, Sith are two...master and apprentice, but in this time frame, there are many Sith...many masters, and many apprentices, even for one master. I've no problem with this existing in this universe, or being canon, because it might have changed down the road, as time moves closer to the movies, and they might have changed their rules to Sith being two.