Is SWTOR still canon?

[CrutchCricket]

what stake do you have in entertainment material?

 

continuity is a luxury and if you want it so badly, you certainly have it; until this year.

 

now you'll get a new continuity.

 

basing your entertainment value on whether or not it matches some different fictional "consistency" baseline is complete irrational. if you liked the stories, like them.

 

otherwise, youre literally getting upset over how fictiony your fiction is. seriously now...

Do you take the time to try and understand what people are actually saying? Or do you just like typing the word "fiction" a lot?

 

A franchise consisting of a massive universe explored through a plethora of media and containing a volume of consistent detail on par in some cases with real history is much more immersive, involved and carries greater weight with a fan interested in it than a franchise with just a few movies and a TV show. It's literally a bigger (here comes your favorite word) fictional world with more opportunities, more background, more characters, more stories, all of which generates more interest, more involvement (look up how many people have contributed to the EU that were themselves SW fans) and therefore more entertainment than any number of movies by themselves ever will. And the fact that it was the only one of its kind (and built on some of the most successful roots in the business) made it all the more special. Are you getting the picture?

 

Yes it's a luxury. But it's a luxury fans have enjoyed for over 20 years. And anything that is enjoyed then taken away is bound to cause some beef, let alone a cornerstone of their pop culture upbringing.

 

For a lot of people Star Wars isn't just Ep 1-6, it's a far greater universe. Look at all these people playing TOR, posting on these forums or other SW forums like the Force.net. Count the number of people participating in discussion and/or ongoing enjoyment of exclusively the trilogies vs the number of people playing the games, reading the books and discussing them online. Disney doesn't give a **** because mass media will secure ticket from the general public. But those masses will go see the movies once, twice, maybe and possibly buy a DVD or Blu-Ray. Most will not continue funding the franchise by subbing to TOR or buying the books, playing the games, or even watching their ****** TV show(s). I'm sure Disney, being the greedy corporation that it is has crunched the numbers and figured out that the general masses mindlessly seeing the movies only once still provide the bigger revenue. But that's banking on disposable fans, if you can even call them fans. Clearly being a dedicated fan doesn't pay anymore.

 

Can Disney make a new grand universe? Probably, their "one canon" doctrine would seem to support it. But they're throwing the old one away. And that's the one people care about today. And even if they are 100% consistent between whatever new content they create, the fact that there's a large body of works outside that continuity still ruins the perception.

 

tl:dr The very unity and consistency you seem to not even acknowledge is itself an intrinsic part of what made the Star Wars universe magical, and can be talked about separately from individual stories whose specific entertainment value is indeed unchanged. If you can't even see that (whether you agree with it or not) I can't help you.

[GrandLordMenace]

Do you take the time to try and understand what people are actually saying? Or do you just like typing the word "fiction" a lot?

 

A franchise consisting of a massive universe explored through a plethora of media and containing a volume of consistent detail on par in some cases with real history is much more immersive, involved and carries greater weight with a fan interested in it than a franchise with just a few movies and a TV show. It's literally a bigger (here comes your favorite word) fictional world with more opportunities, more background, more characters, more stories, all of which generates more interest, more involvement (look up how many people have contributed to the EU that were themselves SW fans) and therefore more entertainment than any number of movies by themselves ever will. And the fact that it was the only one of its kind (and built on some of the most successful roots in the business) made it all the more special. Are you getting the picture?

 

Yes it's a luxury. But it's a luxury fans have enjoyed for over 20 years. And anything that is enjoyed then taken away is bound to cause some beef, let alone a cornerstone of their pop culture upbringing.

 

For a lot of people Star Wars isn't just Ep 1-6, it's a far greater universe. Look at all these people playing TOR, posting on these forums or other SW forums like the Force.net. Count the number of people participating in discussion and/or ongoing enjoyment of exclusively the trilogies vs the number of people playing the games, reading the books and discussing them online. Disney doesn't give a **** because mass media will secure ticket from the general public. But those masses will go see the movies once, twice, maybe and possibly buy a DVD or Blu-Ray. Most will not continue funding the franchise by subbing to TOR or buying the books, playing the games, or even watching their ****** TV show(s). I'm sure Disney, being the greedy corporation that it is has crunched the numbers and figured out that the general masses mindlessly seeing the movies only once still provide the bigger revenue. But that's banking on disposable fans, if you can even call them fans. Clearly being a dedicated fan doesn't pay anymore.

 

Can Disney make a new grand universe? Probably, their "one canon" doctrine would seem to support it. But they're throwing the old one away. And that's the one people care about today. And even if they are 100% consistent between whatever new content they create, the fact that there's a large body of works outside that continuity still ruins the perception.

 

tl:dr The very unity and consistency you seem to not even acknowledge is itself an intrinsic part of what made the Star Wars universe magical, and can be talked about separately from individual stories whose specific entertainment value is indeed unchanged. If you can't even see that (whether you agree with it or not) I can't help you.

 

This is pretty much how I feel. the EU was nowhere near perfect, and definitely could've used curation, but axing the entirety of the lore that has already existed is detrimental. The already existing lore is so in depth and so well built that it seems like a waste to abolish it entirely. If they wanted creative freedom, eliminating the post ROTJ EU would've been bad, but somewhat excusable from a production and creativity standpoint. The massive eradication of the ENTIRETY of the EU, is nonsensical.

[MrGoldsilver]

Do you take the time to try and understand what people are actually saying? Or do you just like typing the word "fiction" a lot?

 

A franchise consisting of a massive universe explored through a plethora of media and containing a volume of consistent detail on par in some cases with real history is much more immersive, involved and carries greater weight with a fan interested in it than a franchise with just a few movies and a TV show. It's literally a bigger (here comes your favorite word) fictional world with more opportunities, more background, more characters, more stories, all of which generates more interest, more involvement (look up how many people have contributed to the EU that were themselves SW fans) and therefore more entertainment than any number of movies by themselves ever will. And the fact that it was the only one of its kind (and built on some of the most successful roots in the business) made it all the more special. Are you getting the picture?

 

Yes it's a luxury. But it's a luxury fans have enjoyed for over 20 years. And anything that is enjoyed then taken away is bound to cause some beef, let alone a cornerstone of their pop culture upbringing.

 

For a lot of people Star Wars isn't just Ep 1-6, it's a far greater universe. Look at all these people playing TOR, posting on these forums or other SW forums like the Force.net. Count the number of people participating in discussion and/or ongoing enjoyment of exclusively the trilogies vs the number of people playing the games, reading the books and discussing them online. Disney doesn't give a **** because mass media will secure ticket from the general public. But those masses will go see the movies once, twice, maybe and possibly buy a DVD or Blu-Ray. Most will not continue funding the franchise by subbing to TOR or buying the books, playing the games, or even watching their ****** TV show(s). I'm sure Disney, being the greedy corporation that it is has crunched the numbers and figured out that the general masses mindlessly seeing the movies only once still provide the bigger revenue. But that's banking on disposable fans, if you can even call them fans. Clearly being a dedicated fan doesn't pay anymore.

 

Can Disney make a new grand universe? Probably, their "one canon" doctrine would seem to support it. But they're throwing the old one away. And that's the one people care about today. And even if they are 100% consistent between whatever new content they create, the fact that there's a large body of works outside that continuity still ruins the perception.

 

tl:dr The very unity and consistency you seem to not even acknowledge is itself an intrinsic part of what made the Star Wars universe magical, and can be talked about separately from individual stories whose specific entertainment value is indeed unchanged. If you can't even see that (whether you agree with it or not) I can't help you.

 

Exactly, Di$ney only cares about the money. They don't care about us, the fans, unless we can give them more money. Yes we can still read the books (Which I still do) but the fact is we aren't getting any MORE books!! I want to know what happens to Jania, Ves, Ben etc... And now I can't, because that would ruin profits of some all powerful company.

[Arkerus]

Exactly, Di$ney only cares about the money. They don't care about us, the fans, unless we can give them more money. Yes we can still read the books (Which I still do) but the fact is we aren't getting any MORE books!! I want to know what happens to Jania, Ves, Ben etc... And now I can't, because that would ruin profits of some all powerful company.

 

Where does their money come from? Customers. It doesn't fall from the sky.

 

As been pointed out many times by movie critics, movies aren't made for the inner circle fans. They are made for the mass public. They can't make logical, consistent movies with the wild and wacky EU. That stuff was never full canon anyway. LA always said it was EU and was never guaranteed to be part of ANY movie.

[MrGoldsilver]

Where does their money come from? Customers. It doesn't fall from the sky.

 

As been pointed out many times by movie critics, movies aren't made for the inner circle fans. They are made for the mass public. They can't make logical, consistent movies with the wild and wacky EU. That stuff was never full canon anyway. LA always said it was EU and was never guaranteed to be part of ANY movie.

 

That is true, I guess I'm still angry over Disney buying Star Wars in the first place.

[CrutchCricket]

Where does their money come from? Customers. It doesn't fall from the sky.

 

As been pointed out many times by movie critics, movies aren't made for the inner circle fans. They are made for the mass public. They can't make logical, consistent movies with the wild and wacky EU. That stuff was never full canon anyway. LA always said it was EU and was never guaranteed to be part of ANY movie.

Why not? Apart from throwaway details like the "mountains of Coruscant" thing in Heir to the Empire most of the stories were pretty consistent with the movies and each other.

 

Not that EU content ever needed to be part of any movie. Like I pointed out they could've slotted the new films in a gap between Thrawn and NJO (the ideal solution)

 

If the gave less of a **** but still cared somewhat, they'd overwrite what they need to but leave the rest (which doesn't affect them) alone.

 

But since they give zero ****s about anything except the bottom line we get this.

[Edzew]

Where does their money come from? Customers. It doesn't fall from the sky.

 

As been pointed out many times by movie critics, movies aren't made for the inner circle fans. They are made for the mass public. They can't make logical, consistent movies with the wild and wacky EU. That stuff was never full canon anyway. LA always said it was EU and was never guaranteed to be part of ANY movie.

 

but you get even more money from hard core fans!!! and if you piss off the hard core fans you loose a lot of customers.

 

there is no reason why they could not make movies with the "wild and wacky EU" and G.L. stated that it was all canon B^) only bad thing is G.L. said a lot of things back in the day, he even said he read every novel before it was printed B^P

 

if it was all about the money Disney could have left the EU alone and continued where the novels left off with this next movie, then they could have turned most of the more important novels into cartoons to show on their network, that would have given them years of material to use, but NOOOOOO they flush it all down the drain.

 

not looking forward to the new movie especially with lens flare guy directing it B^(

[Knorlac]

but you get even more money from hard core fans!!! and if you piss off the hard core fans you loose a lot of customers.

 

there is no reason why they could not make movies with the "wild and wacky EU" and G.L. stated that it was all canon B^) only bad thing is G.L. said a lot of things back in the day, he even said he read every novel before it was printed B^P

 

if it was all about the money Disney could have left the EU alone and continued where the novels left off with this next movie, then they could have turned most of the more important novels into cartoons to show on their network, that would have given them years of material to use, but NOOOOOO they flush it all down the drain.

 

not looking forward to the new movie especially with lens flare guy directing it B^(

 

While I hate specific things to be purged from canon, namely the Thrawn trilogy, keeping all of it would make the new movies seemingly have no relation to the old ones at all, if you've not been reading tons of novels and comics.

[Arkerus]

but you get even more money from hard core fans!!! and if you piss off the hard core fans you loose a lot of customers.

 

there is no reason why they could not make movies with the "wild and wacky EU" and G.L. stated that it was all canon B^) only bad thing is G.L. said a lot of things back in the day, he even said he read every novel before it was printed B^P

 

if it was all about the money Disney could have left the EU alone and continued where the novels left off with this next movie, then they could have turned most of the more important novels into cartoons to show on their network, that would have given them years of material to use, but NOOOOOO they flush it all down the drain.

 

not looking forward to the new movie especially with lens flare guy directing it B^(

 

Sorry pal. I don't know what else to say except most of your statement is completely wrong. Movies are not made for "hardcore fans". They are made to make money from the masses. The EU was never movie canon, ever. LA always gave out licenses to use names and likenesses but was always aware that they were under ZERO obligation to conform the movies to any of it. The EU itself contradicts itself many ways.

 

It was what the fans called G canon. Movie canon was always the "story" canon and included the occasional TV show that was green lighted as directly connected to the movies. For example, the clone wars.

 

The public statement by Disney that they aren't bound by the EU is nothing more than a clarification to end this ridiculous discussion.

 

You can still enjoy the EU and related fiction. You are allowed to do so and Disney can't take that away from you. To believe they can is simply ludicrous.

Edited September 19, 2014 by Arkerus

[TravelersWay]

Clearly being a dedicated fan doesn't pay anymore.

 

It never did - for any IP. Just ask the fans of Firefly.

 

There is a reason why there is the term "Mass Market." It is because it is (and has been for many decades) a very profitable business frame. Make no mistake, the "diehard" core fans are still important - they are the free PR - albiet a very small part of the overall PR campaign.

 

Being a diehard fan has always been more important and beneficial to the fan than to the "company." In the end, no diehard fanbase will ever be able to match the purchasing power of a mass market audience.

[Pagy]

Which, given their heavy-handedness tells you just how much their new direction will **** everything up.

 

Let's be real about one thing. Nuking the entire EU for "creative freedom" was never necessary. Believe it or not there was actually a gap they could've slotted the new movies in without changing anything (basically between Thrawn and the whole NJO business) that wouldn't have required any adaptation of previous material and wouldn't have been too far removed time-wise from the end of Ep6.

 

But if even that's too much to deal with, fine. I understand progress (and really, money) must be made and Disney wants the gazillion dollars from new movies over a few thousand from reprinted books. Great. Why not say "all EU material post Ep6 only is now non-canon as we're remaking it with the new movies (but we may still use old material as reference etc. basically all the ******** they're feeding us now.)? What's their beef with pre-prequel stuff?

 

Or even better, a more flexible dynamic statement like: "There is one canon now, which is comprised of the movies, the show, and all books and games and licensed things. However, any new movie made will automatically overwrite any existing content formerly classed as "EU" that conflicts with it." Meaning if and only if the new movies contradict Thrawn, then Thrawn is out.. Of course that will mean some later works will also have inconsistencies if they're dependent on Thrawn or make reference to it but to that I say a) If they're just barreling through, chances are that stuff will be overwritten eventually anyway and b) some stuff if minor could just be ignored. People still enjoy Heir to the Empire without losing their **** whenever the "mountains of Coruscant" are mentioned or the Clone Wars dates don't align. You might even get the authors/editors on board to rewrite and re-release new versions of the stories that update and fix that stuff- ultimately raking in even more money.

 

Throwing out all of it means they plan on messing with everything, Old Republic era stuff included, most likely through changing the origin of things. And that has already begun. Go to Wookiepedia and check out the page on Darth Bane (specifically the "canon" crap they did in the Clone Wars"). Throwing it all out means they could say "Jedi and Sith are only a thousand years old, came from Tatooine and were gay together every New Years" and there's nothing anyone can do about it.

 

Oh and don't kid yourself. The EU is gone. "It's there for reference" means nothing. It's an empty platitude. Of course it's there for reference. The books and **** still physically exist, it's not like they can go back in time and stop them from being made. And LucasFilm or whatever it is now holds the license so they can use whatever they want. But they could do that anyway, it's no favor or special treatment to us.

 

Star Wars is dead. And Disney killed it. Whatever "Mickey Mouse presents" **** comes next is going to be something different.

the amount youre personally invested in fantasy worlds makes me uncomfortable.

[CrutchCricket]

While I hate specific things to be purged from canon, namely the Thrawn trilogy, keeping all of it would make the new movies seemingly have no relation to the old ones at all, if you've not been reading tons of novels and comics.

 

Given that I can jump into reading say The Dark Nest trilogy or even Legacy of the Force (the books) without reading NJO kinda throws your theory out the window.

 

When Anakin and Obi-wan are riding the elevator up to Padme's in Ep2 and Obi-wan mentions "falling in the nest of gundarks" or whatever, did we really need to read the official book or comic where that happen to know what he was talking about? No. From the context of the conversation we know it was a tense situation where Obi-wan was in danger from gundarks (whatever those are) and Anakin saved him. What gundarks are isn't important, the message in this case is Obi-wan and Anakin's teamwork and Anakin's increasing skills and value.

 

By that same token if Han and Luke were in a fleet battle in Ep 7 and Luke said something like "this is like that time Grand Admiral Thrawn almost cleaned our clocks" do we really need to read the Thrawn trilogy to know exactly what he's talking about? Certainly not. Based on the context in which it's said, people can infer and assume enough about what Luke means and who Thrawn might've been to get what he's saying. And people who have read the books would just smirk and enjoy it all the more.

 

It never did - for any IP. Just ask the fans of Firefly.

 

There is a reason why there is the term "Mass Market." It is because it is (and has been for many decades) a very profitable business frame. Make no mistake, the "diehard" core fans are still important - they are the free PR - albiet a very small part of the overall PR campaign.

 

Being a diehard fan has always been more important and beneficial to the fan than to the "company." In the end, no diehard fanbase will ever be able to match the purchasing power of a mass market audience.

Not questioning that. Just questioning why it has to be one or the other.

 

the amount youre personally invested in fantasy worlds makes me uncomfortable.

Oh look everybody. The word of the day today is "fantasy".

 

The ratio of the lack of effort you put into even engaging the discussion to the number of posts you make makes me uncomfortable.

[LordArtemis]

The term "light side sith" makes me uncomfortable. True story.

[Vandicus]

The term "light side sith" makes me uncomfortable. True story.

 

[PavSalco]

therefore until they say "SWTOR is not canon at all" taking from what I have done research on this, and talking to the people I have talked to, it most likely is in fact canon.

But they exactly said that! I've posted the quotation from LA cantina tour and other people posted it as well. You can keep believing what you want, but you simply deny facts. Swtor is not a part of Disney timeline as long as they change their mind if they would ever do that.

 

The discussion has ended. Bye.

[Rasen]

Who cares if it isn't? Nothing we do will be invalidated so long as the game lives.

 

I know people care, but sometimes we all go a little far with our hobbies and this thread is case in point.

[TravelersWay]

Not questioning that. Just questioning why it has to be one or the other.

 

Because that's how business (and life) works. Star Wars would be nothing without the Mass Market appeal. I would wager that 90% (if not more) of people who spent money on something Star Wars doesn't care one whit about canon or the EU. Those 90+% are the ones that made Star Wars a huge international success. The "lorehounds" had a bone thrown to them in the form of LA's "canon police" that made at least some attempt to give a timeline to all events in the universe. It by no means was necessary nor needed to keep Star Wars as popular (and profitable) as it has been for the last four decades.

 

The fact that you and some other fans find enjoyment in that timeline is completely irrelevant - in the end the "lorehounds" do not pay enough of the bills and the "lorehounds" are not the ones that made Star Wars what it is today. To be honest, the canon as it was before Disney took over the IP was a complete disaster and nothing short of the scorched earth policy would have been good enough to fix it. Part of that disaster was a result of the Almighty George himself not giving a real crap about the events outside of his six movies anyway - the very fact that he made the joke of the Holiday Special canon (despite everyone involved in the IP, including himself, despised the project with every fiber of their beings). The fact that the SWHS is no longer canon is the best thing that could have happened to the IP - and the moment that anything related to Life Day returns in this game means that SWTOR will never be canon again either, unless Disney ordains to include it in something that is official canon.

 

No matter what they did, a portion of the lorehounds would not have been happy because "their" part of the canon would have been given the axe. Better to axe it all and start fresh, just as they did. The beautiful thing about science fiction is the "alternate universe" crutch that writers use in order to escape established lore and create something new (a la the Star Trek reboots). The EU and all the other stuff now take place in an alternate Star Wars timeline, if you like. As much as I think that the crutch has been overused in the genre, I am of firm belief that canon should never stand in the way of telling a good story and keeping things fresh. Obviously Disney thinks the same thing - as do many other producers of such entertainment.

Edited September 20, 2014 by TravelersWay

[LordArtemis]

 

...only on the second tuesday of every week.

 

You know, I pull the badges from a Cadillac and it's still a Cadillac. The removal of consideration as canon for SWTOR was a GOOD thing IMO. Not only did it allow me to dismiss some of the more ridiculous established norms in this game and give them a pass on those fumbles, it also might give Bioware a bit more leeway to be creative.

 

No need to reach the canon standard if they dont want or need to do so.

Edited September 20, 2014 by LordArtemis

[DarthDymond]

Speaking just for myself, the only real downside of the decision to move the EU into the separate "Legends" continuity was the concurrent decision to not produce any new works in that continuity. In that regard, SWTOR is actually a nice exception, since its storylines, at least, will continue until the game is eventually sunsetted.

 

I don't really care that much that Episode VII won't be taking place in a continuity that includes Thrawn, the Yuuzhan Vong, or Darth Malgus, but I do wish there would still be books and comics in the future continuing the stories of characters like Vestara Khai, the Fel Dynasty and their Imperial Knights, Zayne Carrick, and the Sword of the Jedi.

[CrutchCricket]

Because that's how business (and life) works. Star Wars would be nothing without the Mass Market appeal. I would wager that 90% (if not more) of people who spent money on something Star Wars doesn't care one whit about canon or the EU. Those 90+% are the ones that made Star Wars a huge international success. The "lorehounds" had a bone thrown to them in the form of LA's "canon police" that made at least some attempt to give a timeline to all events in the universe. It by no means was necessary nor needed to keep Star Wars as popular (and profitable) as it has been for the last four decades.

Err. No. Star Wars would be nothing without merchandising (of which EU works form a subset) and more importantly, public awareness of Star Wars was dropping by the early 90s when it was rekindld by an EU work (Thrawn) which really kicked off the whole EU thing and kept the fumes running until the prequels started coming out. Without it it's anyone's guess whether people would've given a **** that more Star Wars was coming out.

 

The fact that you and some other fans find enjoyment in that timeline is completely irrelevant - in the end the "lorehounds" do not pay enough of the bills and the "lorehounds" are not the ones that made Star Wars what it is today. To be honest, the canon as it was before Disney took over the IP was a complete disaster and nothing short of the scorched earth policy would have been good enough to fix it. Part of that disaster was a result of the Almighty George himself not giving a real crap about the events outside of his six movies anyway - the very fact that he made the joke of the Holiday Special canon (despite everyone involved in the IP, including himself, despised the project with every fiber of their beings). The fact that the SWHS is no longer canon is the best thing that could have happened to the IP - and the moment that anything related to Life Day returns in this game means that SWTOR will never be canon again either, unless Disney ordains to include it in something that is official canon.

Still haven't answered why it has to be mutually exclusive. And please, the Holiday Special was never part of the EU, it was referenced in precisely zero subsequent works and has nothing to do with anything apart from being the go-to exhibit in the case of "Lucas lost his mind" before the prequels came out. There is no good reason to throw out the entire continuity unless you plan to **** with everything in the universe "just because".

 

No matter what they did, a portion of the lorehounds would not have been happy because "their" part of the canon would have been given the axe. Better to axe it all and start fresh, just as they did. The beautiful thing about science fiction is the "alternate universe" crutch that writers use in order to escape established lore and create something new (a la the Star Trek reboots). The EU and all the other stuff now take place in an alternate Star Wars timeline, if you like. As much as I think that the crutch has been overused in the genre, I am of firm belief that canon should never stand in the way of telling a good story and keeping things fresh. Obviously Disney thinks the same thing - as do many other producers of such entertainment.

So your problem is "you're going to piss someone off" and your solution is "let's piss everyone off? Help me here.

 

Like I mentioned above Star Wars was special in part because it didn't go for the alternate universe stuff. It was one continuity detailing one of the richest fictional universes I've ever come across. Nuking it wasn't just wasteful it was a giant middle finger to everyone who worked on or otherwise invested in it, from the content creators all the way to the end users. And it's made specifically insulting by the needlessness of it all. Canon shouldn't stand in the way of a good story , but neither does a good story need to skull**** previously established facts to exist. As evidence I present none other than the good stories of the EU.

[TravelersWay]

Err. No. Star Wars would be nothing without merchandising (of which EU works form a subset) and more importantly, public awareness of Star Wars was dropping by the early 90s when it was rekindld by an EU work (Thrawn) which really kicked off the whole EU thing and kept the fumes running until the prequels started coming out. Without it it's anyone's guess whether people would've given a **** that more Star Wars was coming out.

Merchandising=Mass Market Appeal. Of the actual billions that were brought into the IP through merchandising, only a small portion of it related to the EU (via the novels). The bread and butter of Star Wars was, and always will be the toys and the licensing of the IP to outside entities for merchandise and usage rights (i.e. T-shirts, character likeness in commercials/shows/games). The money brought in from actual book sales of the EU novels is pretty much a drop in the bucket. Again, very few "Star Wars fans" actually know anything about the EU, let alone bought any of the books. For the majority of the people who "know" Star Wars only know as much as the movies.

 

 

Still haven't answered why it has to be mutually exclusive. And please, the Holiday Special was never part of the EU, it was referenced in precisely zero subsequent works and has nothing to do with anything apart from being the go-to exhibit in the case of "Lucas lost his mind" before the prequels came out. There is no good reason to throw out the entire continuity unless you plan to **** with everything in the universe "just because".

They are mutually exclusive for the very reasons stated and witnessed via the outrage from a subset of the lorehounds. Maintaining canon for something as large as the Star Wars universe is cumbersome at best. Time, resources, and energy is better spent working on fresh ideas that are not tied to any other specific works than what the majority of people are familiar with (as I mentioned above). Heck, even Almighty George ended up retconning several things with the Prequels because it obviously was easier for him to do so within the framework of the stories he wanted to tell at that time. Hell, as I recall he pretty much tossed out the storyline told in Splinter of a Mind's Eye with ESB and RotJ. Not saying that it is necessarily right (or good), but when the pile is so big, and much of that pile smells less than desirable, it is better to avoid the pile altogether and start fresh.

 

 

So your problem is "you're going to piss someone off" and your solution is "let's piss everyone off? Help me here.

Absolutely. Which part of the lorehounds would you choose to piss off? Obviously not the group in which you are a part. Also, just because you and some other lorehounds are pissed off does not mean the entire group of lorehounds are pissed off. I know quite a few, myself included, who are relieved that the canon is actually going to finally get cleaned up, and a lot of the pure garbage has been jettisoned. I enjoyed the original Thrawn trilogy back in the day, but don't care one whit whether they are now official canon or not - it will not ever lessen my enjoyment of those works.

 

Like I mentioned above Star Wars was special in part because it didn't go for the alternate universe stuff. It was one continuity detailing one of the richest fictional universes I've ever come across. Nuking it wasn't just wasteful it was a giant middle finger to everyone who worked on or otherwise invested in it, from the content creators all the way to the end users. And it's made specifically insulting by the needlessness of it all. Canon shouldn't stand in the way of a good story , but neither does a good story need to skull**** previously established facts to exist. As evidence I present none other than the good stories of the EU.

As I said, I find that the "Alternate Universe" gimmick to be far too overused in the genre. Personally, I think the mark of a good writer is someone who is able to tell a good story and tell while sticking to the established canon of the IP for which he or she is writing. I say that as a fan of a few IPs. However, since I have also had the experience to be on the other side as a content creator, I also know the difficulties that come with that - and how those difficulties exponentially increase the longer the IP is in existence and the more works become a part of that IP. At some point, like I mentioned, something has to give and generally it is better to let canon fall by the wayside.

 

In regards to the Star Wars universe, the middle finger didn't come from Disney nuking the EU. The middle finger came from the Almighty George, LucasArts, and the "canon police" who let the IP get so out of hand and muddled that this became the only way to fix it. When an IP needs a half dozen tiers of canon just to try to make sense of it, it needs more than just a band-aid to fix it. It needs major surgery. Unfortunately, you will always lose some good cells when cutting away the rotting flesh that has infested the IP for far too long.

[Arkerus]

Err. No. Star Wars would be nothing without merchandising (of which EU works form a subset) and more importantly, public awareness of Star Wars was dropping by the early 90s when it was rekindld by an EU work (Thrawn) which really kicked off the whole EU thing and kept the fumes running until the prequels started coming out. Without it it's anyone's guess whether people would've given a **** that more Star Wars was coming out.

 

 

Still haven't answered why it has to be mutually exclusive. And please, the Holiday Special was never part of the EU, it was referenced in precisely zero subsequent works and has nothing to do with anything apart from being the go-to exhibit in the case of "Lucas lost his mind" before the prequels came out. There is no good reason to throw out the entire continuity unless you plan to **** with everything in the universe "just because".

 

 

So your problem is "you're going to piss someone off" and your solution is "let's piss everyone off? Help me here.

 

Like I mentioned above Star Wars was special in part because it didn't go for the alternate universe stuff. It was one continuity detailing one of the richest fictional universes I've ever come across. Nuking it wasn't just wasteful it was a giant middle finger to everyone who worked on or otherwise invested in it, from the content creators all the way to the end users. And it's made specifically insulting by the needlessness of it all. Canon shouldn't stand in the way of a good story , but neither does a good story need to skull**** previously established facts to exist. As evidence I present none other than the good stories of the EU.

 

I hate to tell you, but he's right and you're wrong. And you are WAY too into the story and its a bit uncomfortable. Disney is doing what they have to do to make a good movie for the mass market.

[CrutchCricket]

Merchandising=Mass Market Appeal. Of the actual billions that were brought into the IP through merchandising, only a small portion of it related to the EU (via the novels). The bread and butter of Star Wars was, and always will be the toys and the licensing of the IP to outside entities for merchandise and usage rights (i.e. T-shirts, character likeness in commercials/shows/games). The money brought in from actual book sales of the EU novels is pretty much a drop in the bucket. Again, very few "Star Wars fans" actually know anything about the EU, let alone bought any of the books. For the majority of the people who "know" Star Wars only know as much as the movies.

I don't disagree with anything you've said, except maybe where you estimate quantities. But then, nothing you've said addresses the fact that it was an EU work that kept SW in the corner of people's eyes when interest was waning in between the original trilogy and the prequels. And unless/until I see official numbers as to the revenue brought in from toys, T-shirts and commercials vs that of books, games and comics I'm going to take phrases like "drop in the bucket" with a large grain of salt.

 

The revenue generated by new movies and subsequent merchandising off said movies is undeniably larger than other older licensing. That much is clear. But differentiating between different streams of merchandising in between movies and claiming one stream vastly outnumbers the other? Not so clear.

 

None of this by the way speaks to the justification of willingly throwing a portion of that merchandise away when there is no pressing need to.

 

They are mutually exclusive for the very reasons stated and witnessed via the outrage from a subset of the lorehounds. Maintaining canon for something as large as the Star Wars universe is cumbersome at best. Time, resources, and energy is better spent working on fresh ideas that are not tied to any other specific works than what the majority of people are familiar with (as I mentioned above). Heck, even Almighty George ended up retconning several things with the Prequels because it obviously was easier for him to do so within the framework of the stories he wanted to tell at that time. Hell, as I recall he pretty much tossed out the storyline told in Splinter of a Mind's Eye with ESB and RotJ. Not saying that it is necessarily right (or good), but when the pile is so big, and much of that pile smells less than desirable, it is better to avoid the pile altogether and start fresh.

Really? 20+ years of maintaining continuity while still coming up with fresh stories belies your point. This game and KOTOR are prime examples. But if you think that's too easy because they're set way before any of the movies, fine. Wanna talk about NJO, the only major storyline that isn't a retread of "Sith/Empire with triangle ships attack Jedi/Republic with mismatched ships and races while protocol and astromech droids and smugglers with souped up freighters run around being all noble"? Or how about Thrawn trilogy that does away with "rawr dark side I am evil and eat babies" villains and actually presents competent and relatable villains while staying true to not just the facts, but also the feel of the original trilogy. Or how about the series after NJO that take Lucas "greater galactic politics backdrop" and runs with it in interesting way, while still not skimping on character development and interpersonal relationships? It all fit pretty well, and it worked out quite nicely. You think all those authors were stifled creatively? I challenge you to prove it.

 

Lucas never cared about the EU one way or another. He just did his own thing. And I can respect that. It was his world everyone else had to play by his rules. Fine. He barged over something, the EU accommodated it. But what he never did was chuck the whole thing out the window. If the damn creator of the thing can create what he wants, whenever he wants, without nuking the whole damn thing or feeling "creatively stifled" why can't Disney, a company that has been collectively creative for more than twice as Star Wars has been in existence?

 

Absolutely. Which part of the lorehounds would you choose to piss off? Obviously not the group in which you are a part. Also, just because you and some other lorehounds are pissed off does not mean the entire group of lorehounds are pissed off. I know quite a few, myself included, who are relieved that the canon is actually going to finally get cleaned up, and a lot of the pure garbage has been jettisoned. I enjoyed the original Thrawn trilogy back in the day, but don't care one whit whether they are now official canon or not - it will not ever lessen my enjoyment of those works.

I wouldn't choose to piss off any of them. What I would choose is the best course for my new movies while not ******** on the work that came before unnecessarily.. They could've fit the new trilogy in the existing post-Jedi framework without specifically adapting or changing any EU work. Admittedly it is a bit of threading the needle. If that is too much effort, then go ahead and overwrite something. Overwrite NJO or Dark Empire or even Thrawn. But don't flush the whole damn thing down the crapper. What does the Bane trilogy have to do with their new movies? Or KOTOR? Or TOR? Or Dawn of the Jedi or any of that? You're telling me that stories that feature none of the same characters, timelines or situations but just happen to use the same setting only millennia in the past is "too much creative stifling?" I call ******** plain and simple.

 

There are so many ways they could've gone about this that doesn't involve taking a giant **** on 20 years of franchise history. Even if they wiped out all post-Jedi canon, would it have killed them to make a stronger reassurance for at least a partial re-inclusion? "It's there" tells us nothing. Of course it's there. No one expects of claims that it's wiped from existence. That doesn't mean anything.

 

Hell even comic book reboots end up re-using a lot of recognizable elements in characters, back stories and plots. And we both agree on what a cluster**** some of those franchises are.

 

By the way if "lorehounds" hound lore, then yes throwing away ALL the lore pisses off ALL the lorehounds. If you don't care, as you indicate you don't, you're not really a lorehound, are you? We'll need you to turn in your membership card.

 

As I said, I find that the "Alternate Universe" gimmick to be far too overused in the genre. Personally, I think the mark of a good writer is someone who is able to tell a good story and tell while sticking to the established canon of the IP for which he or she is writing. I say that as a fan of a few IPs. However, since I have also had the experience to be on the other side as a content creator, I also know the difficulties that come with that - and how those difficulties exponentially increase the longer the IP is in existence and the more works become a part of that IP. At some point, like I mentioned, something has to give and generally it is better to let canon fall by the wayside.

 

In regards to the Star Wars universe, the middle finger didn't come from Disney nuking the EU. The middle finger came from the Almighty George, LucasArts, and the "canon police" who let the IP get so out of hand and muddled that this became the only way to fix it. When an IP needs a half dozen tiers of canon just to try to make sense of it, it needs more than just a band-aid to fix it. It needs major surgery. Unfortunately, you will always lose some good cells when cutting away the rotting flesh that has infested the IP for far too long.

I disagree. The beauty of fiction and creativity is that you can justify and retcon almost anything and it is far more impressive when you do, then when you just go "alright **** everything from before, this is now what's happening".

 

It's analogous to setting and following clear rules for the sci-fi/fantasy elements in your universe. If you want to do something that's not directly supported by them, it's much more impressive if you find ways to do that without breaking the rules. Otherwise it's just an asspull.

 

Just out of curiosity, what is it about the canon you consider so irreparable? I know for a fact you're exaggerating the multi-tiered model. It's actually simple. You have:

 

1.Movie canon

2. EU

3.Out-dated stuff

4. Non-canon

 

3. is probably the only useless level. Later they added a level for the Clone Wars which again is probably not needed but whatever. The only cleanup needed was getting rid of level 3.

 

I hate to tell you, but he's right and you're wrong. And you are WAY too into the story and its a bit uncomfortable. Disney is doing what they have to do to make a good movie for the mass market.

No they're really not. Like I've been saying, there is zero reason to throw out everything.

 

And if not immediately capitulating because someone disagrees is "uncomfortable" to you, perhaps a discussion forum is not the best place to be, eh?

[TravelersWay]

I don't disagree with anything you've said, except maybe where you estimate quantities. But then, nothing you've said addresses the fact that it was an EU work that kept SW in the corner of people's eyes when interest was waning in between the original trilogy and the prequels. And unless/until I see official numbers as to the revenue brought in from toys, T-shirts and commercials vs that of books, games and comics I'm going to take phrases like "drop in the bucket" with a large grain of salt.

 

The revenue generated by new movies and subsequent merchandising off said movies is undeniably larger than other older licensing. That much is clear. But differentiating between different streams of merchandising in between movies and claiming one stream vastly outnumbers the other? Not so clear.

Take it for what it’s worth. There is plenty of information out there to be had in terms of business merchandising, et al. In terms of keeping Star Wars in the forefront of people’s minds, again, that gets back to the general type of fan versus the lorehound. Certainly, the books are enjoyed by many, but there is a much larger segment of the fanbase that 1) doesn’t know all that much, if anything at all, about the EU and 2)simply doesn’t care about the EU. The thing that has kept Star Wars in the forefront of everyone’s mind for the last couple of decades has been the merchandising. That’s where the money has been made. In terms of what I assume to be The Clone Wars you are talking about, while some may consider that to be EU, it is in fact established as official canon, which doesn’t qualify it as EU status, as I recall. That will be explained below.

 

None of this by the way speaks to the justification of willingly throwing a portion of that merchandise away when there is no pressing need to.

The justification is that it is simply easier to wipe the slate clean in terms of canon and bring back what works for whatever direction the new official canon is going. It is a perfectly sensible approach.

 

Really? 20+ years of maintaining continuity while still coming up with fresh stories belies your point. This game and KOTOR are prime examples. But if you think that's too easy because they're set way before any of the movies, fine. Wanna talk about NJO, the only major storyline that isn't a retread of "Sith/Empire with triangle ships attack Jedi/Republic with mismatched ships and races while protocol and astromech droids and smugglers with souped up freighters run around being all noble"? Or how about Thrawn trilogy that does away with "rawr dark side I am evil and eat babies" villains and actually presents competent and relatable villains while staying true to not just the facts, but also the feel of the original trilogy. Or how about the series after NJO that take Lucas "greater galactic politics backdrop" and runs with it in interesting way, while still not skimping on character development and interpersonal relationships? It all fit pretty well, and it worked out quite nicely. You think all those authors were stifled creatively? I challenge you to prove it.

There is nothing to prove. I already said that I find writing to be strong when it can be good and still maintain established canon. I never said that every piece of EU work was bad. There are some very strong works out there. But again, I also have no problem with cleaning up the canon as necessary, and as I have said before the state of the canon as it became needed major surgery. The actual quality of those works has not lessened one iota because of the simplification of the canon.

 

By the way if "lorehounds" hound lore, then yes throwing away ALL the lore pisses off ALL the lorehounds. If you don't care, as you indicate you don't, you're not really a lorehound, are you? We'll need you to turn in your membership card.

Sorry, I checked in with some old friends of mine and they have informed me that my “lorehoundedness” is well intact.

 

Really Just out of curiosity, what is it about the canon you consider so irreparable? I know for a fact you're exaggerating the multi-tiered model. It's actually simple. You have:

 

1.Movie canon

2. EU

3.Out-dated stuff

4. Non-canon

 

3. is probably the only useless level. Later they added a level for the Clone Wars which again is probably not needed but whatever. The only cleanup needed was getting rid of level 3.

 

I think someone needs to check your membership card. Here are the actual facts:

Previously, there were six levels of canon:

G (GL canon)

T (TV canon)

C (Continuity canon)

S (Secondary canon)

N (Non-canon)

D (Detours canon)

 

Over the years, the Almighty George has repeatedly stated that anything that happened in the EU was in a “parallel universe” and in “a different world” than what he himself created directly. All the other tiers of canonocity were created simply to try to keep the EU in line and make some sense from work to work. What Disney and the “canon police” have done now is simplify the canon into two sections: Official Canon and Non-canon. In all actuality, nothing has changed by doing that. “Official” canon always was (as stated many times over the years) only the movies. Everything else was “Non-canon”. The EU was never official canon, the games were never official canon, nothing but the six movies, and later TCW were official canon. All Disney did was combine the lower 5 tiers into one all encompassing tier. Along with that, they have stated several times that just because something was not “official” canon now does not mean it cannot become official canon down the road, based on whatever new works are released.

 

In the end, simplicity is much better than the cumbersome nonsense we had before. The fact that a very, very small portion of the overall Star Wars fanbase is outraged over what amounts to a clarification of what was already known and accepted doesn’t really amount to an anthill of beans in the grand scheme of things. The majority of the lorehounds are welcoming of the change; the rest of the fanbase simply doesn’t care. There was absolutely no need for Disney, or anyone else for that matter, to put one iota of effort in keeping the >1% of the overall fanbase happy. The ROI simply doesn’t make sense to do so.

Edited September 21, 2014 by TravelersWay

[CrutchCricket]

In terms of what I assume to be The Clone Wars you are talking about, while some may consider that to be EU, it is in fact established as official canon, which doesn’t qualify it as EU status, as I recall. That will be explained below.

 

Actually I was talking about the Thrawn trilogy in the early 90s. It is recognized for kicking off the EU as we know it and revitalizing the Star Wars brand at a time when awareness was slipping (with Jedi out for five years and no new content in sight).

 

The justification is that it is simply easier to wipe the slate clean in terms of canon and bring back what works for whatever direction the new official canon is going. It is a perfectly sensible approach.

It is not at all sensible to wipe out something that doesn't interfere with your plans to stop it from interfering with your plans. It is simply not necessary. Any backlash generated as a result, no matter how inconsequential is a detriment that didn't need to be incurred balanced against a gain of zero. The justification is not valid.

 

There is nothing to prove. I already said that I find writing to be strong when it can be good and still maintain established canon. I never said that every piece of EU work was bad. There are some very strong works out there. But again, I also have no problem with cleaning up the canon as necessary, and as I have said before the state of the canon as it became needed major surgery. The actual quality of those works has not lessened one iota because of the simplification of the canon.

Your point was that the canon is too dense to permit the writing of good stories. The quality of individual EU works was not under debate. Insofar as we agree the quality of a good part of these works is good, that serves only to prove the opposite of what you're claiming. So you're not actually supporting your point at all, you just keep saying "it needs to be cleaned up".

 

Sorry, I checked in with some old friends of mine and they have informed me that my “lorehoundedness” is well intact.

I don't see how, if you're willing to chuck it all away on a dime. But let's not take it into personal areas.

 

I think someone needs to check your membership card. Here are the actual facts:

Previously, there were six levels of canon:

G (GL canon)

T (TV canon)

C (Continuity canon)

S (Secondary canon)

N (Non-canon)

D (Detours canon)

Which aligns with what I said except for "detour canon". I'd like to see a definition, and a source for that if you don't mind.

 

Over the years, the Almighty George has repeatedly stated that anything that happened in the EU was in a “parallel universe” and in “a different world” than what he himself created directly. All the other tiers of canonocity were created simply to try to keep the EU in line and make some sense from work to work. What Disney and the “canon police” have done now is simplify the canon into two sections: Official Canon and Non-canon. In all actuality, nothing has changed by doing that. “Official” canon always was (as stated many times over the years) only the movies. Everything else was “Non-canon”. The EU was never official canon, the games were never official canon, nothing but the six movies, and later TCW were official canon. All Disney did was combine the lower 5 tiers into one all encompassing tier. Along with that, they have stated several times that just because something was not “official” canon now does not mean it cannot become official canon down the road, based on whatever new works are released.

Of course the EU was official canon, it was administered, managed and informed by Lucasarts (or Lucasfilm or whatever subdivision with the word Lucas in front of it). That's about as official as it can get, short of Lucas himself managing it, which he never had any interest in doing. And I've already acknowledged this. Lucas had his movies, his ideas, he just wanted to do his own thing. But this is also the man who said "the universe of Star Wars is much larger than my story. And there are other stories to be told. But this is my story". Lucas didn't denounce the EU, he just ignored it. Which is the right way to go about it. Earlier you mentioned Splinters of the Mind's Eye. Did Lucas need to make some grand sweeping statement denouncing all EU works to make Empire (the fact that it was the only EU book at the time is irrelevant)? No. He just went ahead and made the damn thing, overwrote the book. When he made the Clone Wars show, did he need to throw out the EU to do it? No, he just did it. And the EU adjusted. No nuking was necessary and no one lost their ****.

 

In the end, simplicity is much better than the cumbersome nonsense we had before. The fact that a very, very small portion of the overall Star Wars fanbase is outraged over what amounts to a clarification of what was already known and accepted doesn’t really amount to an anthill of beans in the grand scheme of things. The majority of the lorehounds are welcoming of the change; the rest of the fanbase simply doesn’t care. There was absolutely no need for Disney, or anyone else for that matter, to put one iota of effort in keeping the >1% of the overall fanbase happy. The ROI simply doesn’t make sense to do so.

You have yet to explain what is cumbersome (or more precisely what you find cumbersome) about the previous system.

 

What doesn't make sense is pissing off anybody when you have the option to piss off nobody for the same cost.