Is SWTOR still canon?

[RaithHarth]

I think someone needs to check your membership card. Here are the actual facts:

Previously, there were six levels of canon:

G (GL canon)

T (TV canon)

C (Continuity canon)

S (Secondary canon)

N (Non-canon)

D (Detours canon)

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't George Lucas accept the fact that both

are actual canon and do exist in his universe? I remember they nearly made the cut in the Clone Wars animated series in season 3? In fact Bane did make it into the final cut on season 6 during a confrontation with Yoda. Edited September 21, 2014 by RaithHarth

[TravelersWay]

Actually I was talking about the Thrawn trilogy in the early 90s. It is recognized for kicking off the EU as we know it and revitalizing the Star Wars brand at a time when awareness was slipping (with Jedi out for five years and no new content in sight).

Ah yes. It did indeed "kick off" the EU, but what kept Star Wars relevant was the licensing and merchandising. Certainly the novels kept the diehard and lorehound fans interested (though I have friends who are just as diehard as I am and never read one book in the EU and they never lost interest in the brand).

 

 

It is not at all sensible to wipe out something that doesn't interfere with your plans to stop it from interfering with your plans. It is simply not necessary. Any backlash generated as a result, no matter how inconsequential is a detriment that didn't need to be incurred balanced against a gain of zero. The justification is not valid.

It makes perfect sense when one is not personally invested in every nuance of the timeline like the lorehounds are. As the old saying goes, it's business, it's not personal. The lorehounds make it personal, the suits see it as a business. As a business move, it means nothing because the money will still be made regardless. There will still be plenty of people buying books with the "Legends" brand and watching plenty of non-canon Star Wars stuff, and enjoying every minute of it.

 

 

Your point was that the canon is too dense to permit the writing of good stories. The quality of individual EU works was not under debate. Insofar as we agree the quality of a good part of these works is good, that serves only to prove the opposite of what you're claiming. So you're not actually supporting your point at all, you just keep saying "it needs to be cleaned up".

No, my point was that the canon was too convoluted to continue to leave it as it was. When an IP needs six levels of canonocity to try to explain the who, what, when, where, why, and how, that's a problem. Whether something is "official" canon or not has no basis on the actual quality of the product. The quality of the good EU stuff didn't magically take a nosedive the second Disney announced a clean-up of the canon. Reading the Thrawn trilogy today is just as fun and entertaining as when I read it the first time 20 odd years ago.

 

 

I don't see how, if you're willing to chuck it all away on a dime. But let's not take it into personal areas.

Well, I could start dropping names, but it would be pointless to do so based on the nature of the medium in which we are discussing this subject.

 

 

Which aligns with what I said except for "detour canon". I'd like to see a definition, and a source for that if you don't mind.

This was established by the "canon police" (Leland Chen and the Keepers of the Holocron), many years ago and accepted by the diehard fanbase as fact. Google will bring up many, many, many quotes and established facts as such from over the years. For a condensed version, just hop on over to wookepedia and look it up. It does not align with what you said because you separated EU and outdated stuff (which does not exist as a level of canonocity). The actual fact of the matter is that anything that is not the six movies and TCW is part of the EU and falls within one of the five other tiers of canonocity.

 

 

Of course the EU was official canon, it was administered, managed and informed by Lucasarts (or Lucasfilm or whatever subdivision with the word Lucas in front of it). That's about as official as it can get, short of Lucas himself managing it, which he never had any interest in doing. And I've already acknowledged this. Lucas had his movies, his ideas, he just wanted to do his own thing. But this is also the man who said "the universe of Star Wars is much larger than my story. And there are other stories to be told. But this is my story". Lucas didn't denounce the EU, he just ignored it. Which is the right way to go about it. Earlier you mentioned Splinters of the Mind's Eye. Did Lucas need to make some grand sweeping statement denouncing all EU works to make Empire (the fact that it was the only EU book at the time is irrelevant)? No. He just went ahead and made the damn thing, overwrote the book. When he made the Clone Wars show, did he need to throw out the EU to do it? No, he just did it. And the EU adjusted. No nuking was necessary and no one lost their ****.

Only G-canon has been accepted to be "official" canon because G-canon overrides any and all other canon. The EU was part of the "timeline" but nothing that ever happened in the EU could override anything in the top tier, hence it could never become official canon because it could be changed at any time.

 

 

You have yet to explain what is cumbersome (or more precisely what you find cumbersome) about the previous system.

 

What doesn't make sense is pissing off anybody when you have the option to piss off nobody for the same cost.

As I said, it is cumbersome and convoluted because it became necessary to have six different tiers of canonocity to try to explain things, when one should only ever be needed. There have been many contradictions between parts of the EU. Now, we now longer have to worry about that. And it is naive to think that nobody would be pissed off. The minute that Episode 7 hit the screens, a group of lorehounds would be pissed that "their" part of the EU just got overridden.

 

Ultimately, what Disney did changes nothing. Everyone is free to believe exactly what they want to believe in terms of canon - that's the beauty of a fictional universe. We are free to pick and choose what we enjoy the most out of an IP and consider it to be the "truth" of events in that IP. It has what has helped me get past the nonsense that the new Doctor Who and Star Trek stories have done in those franchises.

Edited September 22, 2014 by TravelersWay

[TravelersWay]

Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't George Lucas accept the fact that both

are actual canon and do exist in his universe? I remember they nearly made the cut in the Clone Wars animated series in season 3? In fact Bane did make it into the final cut on season 6 during a confrontation with Yoda.

 

That's where the cumbersome and convoluted part comes into play. There are things that George "made" canon, such as the SWHS (mostly because of the Boba Fett cartoon), but nothing is considered official unless it happened or was referenced in the movies or in TCW. Hence, why the Sith Homeworld is officially Moraband and is not Korriban. There are things that George liked in the EU, but for the sake of continuity, G-canon always takes precedence and is official - the rest of it is not.

[Edzew]

Ah yes. It did indeed "kick off" the EU, but what kept Star Wars relevant was the licensing and merchandising. Certainly the novels kept the diehard and lorehound fans interested (though I have friends who are just as diehard as I am and never read one book in the EU and they never lost interest in the brand).

.

 

what licensing and merchandising??? i don't remember anything in 91, no figures, maybe a crappy super Nintendo game but i think that came out before. the only licensing and merchandising i remember are the EU books, which sparked more interest in Star Wars again heck even the figures started doing EU figs and when shadows of the empire came out it sparked an even bigger interest and they marketed the heck out of that EU book!!!!

[TravelersWay]

what licensing and merchandising??? i don't remember anything in 91, no figures, maybe a crappy super Nintendo game but i think that came out before. the only licensing and merchandising i remember are the EU books, which sparked more interest in Star Wars again heck even the figures started doing EU figs and when shadows of the empire came out it sparked an even bigger interest and they marketed the heck out of that EU book!!!!

 

It was there. Certainly not to the extent that it was before, during the OT's heyday and now, but it was there and profitable for a few people I know.

[Edzew]

It was there. Certainly not to the extent that it was before, during the OT's heyday and now, but it was there and profitable for a few people I know.

 

o please do tell.. what was being marketed in the early 90s?? again the only thing i remember are the books! no action figures back then, not any games, no movies or tv shows. so what was being marketed during that time??? anyone can say "yea i know things that you don't but i don't wana say anything to make you feel bad kuz you don't know" B^P

Edited September 22, 2014 by Edzew

[TravelersWay]

o please do tell.. what was being marketed in the early 90s?? again the only thing i remember are the books! no action figures back then, not any games, no movies or tv shows. so what was being marketed during that time??? anyone can say yea i know things that you don't but i don't wana say anything to make you feel bad kuz you don't know B^P

 

Oh go ahead, I can take it. Trust me I'm a big boy and have been around the block more than once.

[Edzew]

Oh go ahead, I can take it. Trust me I'm a big boy and have been around the block more than once.

 

you need to reread what i typed... i think you misread it. i even went back and edited to to make it a lil more clear for ya

Edited September 22, 2014 by Edzew

[TravelersWay]

you need to reread what i typed... i think you misread it. i even went back and edited to to make it a lil more clear for ya

 

You're right my bad. So, what exactly would it prove? It has nothing to do with the topic at hand, and as I mentioned in one of my previous posts, doing so in this current setting would be pretty meaningless for exactly the reason you put in quotes.

 

Nothing changes the fact that the Star Wars canon needed a major overhaul. Disney went the simple route and took six convoluted tiers and condensed it down to two (which in all actuality is one - something is either canon or it is not). That's pretty much how it worked all along, but the only reason we ended up with the six tiers was to keep lorehounds happy. That never was a necessity and for the most part it was only done because of the lorehounds.

 

Regardless, as has been mentioned several times, whether something is canon or not is completely meaningless. The canonocity of a particular work has absolutely no bearing on the actual quality of said work. If said work is good and entertaining, it will remain good and entertaining if it is official canon and it will still be good and entertaining if it is not canon. For people to get bent out of shape of this is nonsensical. If we are to get bent out of shape about anything, let it be the quality of the new movies when they arrive. If they are well made, fun, entertaining, and maintain the spirit that was set with the OT, then who the hell cares what in the EU it tramples upon. If they suck, well then, let's hate them for the fact that they suck because of the poor writing, effects, production, or what have you.

 

But hey that's not what you asked, right? Well how about this - Zahn's books actually weren't the start of the EU. Something else was, and in fact the things in the books were based on material that was provided to Zahn via this other product. Can you tell me what it is?

 

While you are pondering that question, I'll regale you with a tale:

A few years ago, my wife assisted a client of hers with some preparations for the upcoming birth of her child. My wife and her client hit it off so well, they stayed in touch and wouldn't you know it? Said client was a "close personal friend" of C.C. Deville. As a result, we got to hang out with CC and eventually met the rest of the band, and got baskstage passes to the next show they played in our area. To this day, we still stay in touch with CC and the rest of the band and have never had to pay for concert tickets since then.

 

What does this have to do with the topic at hand? Nothing at all. Let me ask you this though, why do you think I told that tale, and do you think I care whether anyone in this forum believes a word of it or not?

Edited September 22, 2014 by TravelersWay

[CrutchCricket]

Ah yes. It did indeed "kick off" the EU, but what kept Star Wars relevant was the licensing and merchandising. Certainly the novels kept the diehard and lorehound fans interested (though I have friends who are just as diehard as I am and never read one book in the EU and they never lost interest in the brand).

That IS licensing and merchandising. And it was a key aspect of keeping SW in the public consciousness so other stuff would still sell.

 

It makes perfect sense when one is not personally invested in every nuance of the timeline like the lorehounds are. As the old saying goes, it's business, it's not personal. The lorehounds make it personal, the suits see it as a business. As a business move, it means nothing because the money will still be made regardless. There will still be plenty of people buying books with the "Legends" brand and watching plenty of non-canon Star Wars stuff, and enjoying every minute of it.

I'm not talking personal. A loss of a single dollar is unjustified if another course of action that requires no greater effort saves it.

 

Pissing off a fraction of the fans,( no matter how small you claim that fraction is) does not make sense when you could've done otherwise at no cost to you and still met your goals.

 

No, my point was that the canon was too convoluted to continue to leave it as it was. When an IP needs six levels of canonocity to try to explain the who, what, when, where, why, and how, that's a problem.

You keep saying that but you bring no points to support it. And please, six levels of canon on paper (and I'm still waiting on proof for one of them) do not six actually used levels make. When was the last time anything from S-canon or whatever it's called made a difference to anything? What current EU work (or movie or the Clone Wars) made reference to something from, SW Galaxies for example? I can agree this entire level of canon is useless and if they had just gotten rid of that, I probably wouldn't even have noticed. But that's not what happened. And whatever "clutter" you think you see, chances are it was being ignored by everybody anyway. So your entire argument rests on something that's irrelevant to begin with.

 

 

This was established by the "canon police" (Leland Chen and the Keepers of the Holocron), many years ago and accepted by the diehard fanbase as fact. Google will bring up many, many, many quotes and established facts as such from over the years. For a condensed version, just hop on over to wookepedia and look it up. It does not align with what you said because you separated EU and outdated stuff (which does not exist as a level of canonocity). The actual fact of the matter is that anything that is not the six movies and TCW is part of the EU and falls within one of the five other tiers of canonocity.

I AM on Wookiepedia and there is no mention of "detour" canon. What I said "outdated stuff" I was paraphrasing, and pretty much referring to S-canon which reads:

 

S (secondary) canon referred to older, less accurate, or less coherent EU works, which would not ordinarily fit in the main continuity of G and C canon. Unless referenced by a G or C-level source, the story itself is considered non-continuity, but the non-contradicting elements were still a canon part of the Star Wars universe. For example, this included The Star Wars Holiday Special, the Marvel comics, the popular online roleplaying game Star Wars Galaxies and certain elements of a few N-canon stories.

 

That definition seems to cover everything that's been outdated, overwritten or otherwise rendered irrelevant to the main continuity. Notice the wording. Unless referenced by G or C canon, story is non-canon.... non-contradictory elements are still canon. Right there you have the flexibility I'm talking about, yet it lacks the confusion or convolutedness you seem to be going on about. Again, I could see the merits of just ditching this level alltogether, leaving you with a simple structure of Movies>CloneWars>Current EU. I'm not against collapsing even that into "One Canon". Honestly that's how I've always seen it personally anyway. What I am against is throwing out the majority of the content to do so.

 

 

Only G-canon has been accepted to be "official" canon because G-canon overrides any and all other canon. The EU was part of the "timeline" but nothing that ever happened in the EU could override anything in the top tier, hence it could never become official canon because it could be changed at any time.

A hierarchy is not binary. The fact that EU could be superseded by Lucas did not diminish it's official standing one iota. Again, it was managed and administrated by the company, it had the official seal, it was official. Permanence of status is also not a requirement, as I'm sure all the changes to the movies themselves will tell you.

 

 

As I said, it is cumbersome and convoluted because it became necessary to have six different tiers of canonocity to try to explain things, when one should only ever be needed. There have been many contradictions between parts of the EU. Now, we now longer have to worry about that. And it is naive to think that nobody would be pissed off. The minute that Episode 7 hit the screens, a group of lorehounds would be pissed that "their" part of the EU just got overridden.

And as I said, six different tiers were NOT actively used, and I still only count four (five with Clone Wars), one of which can be collapsed without throwing the entirety of the content in the crapper.

 

And yes, some people will be pissed, depending on what gets overwritten. I never denied that. But it's still better than ALL people being pissed (even if that fraction of a fanbase is as miniscule as you say, which I still don't buy).

 

Now would you care to list some of these contradictions? And please limit them to insurmountable ones that necessitating nuking the whole thing. The "mountains of Coruscant" lines in Thrawn don't count.

[CrutchCricket]

Hence, why the Sith Homeworld is officially Moraband and is not Korriban.

 

And there's the real tragedy of all this, more so than just arbitrary debates on what defines a continuity or not. The fact that not only did they nuke the entire thing but they're already planning on and actively screwing with lore that has nothing to do with the future movies, or DVD sales or any of that.

 

Tell me, how does changing the Sith homeworld or messing with Darth Bane's backstory make Disney more money? Would DVDs of the Clone Wars spontaneously combust if the word "Korriban" was said as opposed to "Moraband"?

 

But hey that's not what you asked, right? Well how about this - Zahn's books actually weren't the start of the EU. Something else was, and in fact the things in the books were based on material that was provided to Zahn via this other product. Can you tell me what it is?

 

The Wizards of the Coast Star Wars Roleplaying game? So what? To clarify, I said the Thrawn Trilogy kicked off the EU as we know it. I never claimed there were no other, older extra-theatrical sources of lore. And the mass market appeal of a book series by a popular sci-fi author is quite different then that of a Star Wars DnD game.

[Khevar]

The Wizards of the Coast Star Wars Roleplaying game? So what? To clarify, I said the Thrawn Trilogy kicked off the EU as we know it

Your ignorance just caused Alan Dean Foster to roll over in his grave -- which is quite a feat seeing as how he's still alive.

[eartharioch]

Your ignorance just caused Alan Dean Foster to roll over in his grave -- which is quite a feat seeing as how he's still alive.

 

Seeing how ADF kicked off the OU (Original Universe), I understand. He didn't just write the first spin-off, he ghost wrote the Star Wars novelization itself.

[Gurluas]

Parts of Tor are canon at..

Off the top of my head:

 

Selkath

Old Republic (Complete with logo)

Manaan

Terentatek

 

That's all for now, hopefully more will be added later.

[Arkerus]

Parts of Tor are canon at..

Off the top of my head:

 

Selkath

Old Republic (Complete with logo)

Manaan

Terentatek

 

That's all for now, hopefully more will be added later.

 

Its not "parts". There isn't some happy medium here. I'm sorry to tell you but that's the bottom line.

 

SWTOR is not movie canon in any way, shape or form. Yes, some names/locations might be the same. Yes, some words from a movie might reference the old republic in some way.

 

But this game (and its stories) are all "Legends" material. The movie canon is under ZERO obligation to follow anything that happens here.

 

To put it bluntly, this game is an alternate timeline and nothing that we see in the theatre is based on legends material. Yes, they might have taken some themes or even a character from the legends material but it will all be movie based.

Edited September 22, 2014 by Arkerus

[Gurluas]

Its not "parts". There isn't some happy medium here. I'm sorry to tell you but that's the bottom line.

 

SWTOR is not movie canon in any way, shape or form. Yes, some names/locations might be the same. Yes, some words from a movie might reference the old republic in some way.

 

But this game (and its stories) are all "Legends" material. The movie canon is under ZERO obligation to follow anything that happens here.

 

To put it bluntly, this game is an alternate timeline and nothing that we see in the theatre is based on legends material. Yes, they might have taken some themes or even a character from the legends material but it will all be movie based.

 

Anything that is in the Clone wars series is movie canon, so those things I mentioned are therefore also movie canon.

Yes it's not satifying at all. But a few things ARE canon.

 

For instance, the Old Republic logo is the same as the one in Swtor because it was in an episode of Clone Wars.

However, anything that isn't shown could be changed. So Manaan could be a mountain planet in the new canon for all we know. But at least it's there.

[Arkerus]

Anything that is in the Clone wars series is movie canon, so those things I mentioned are therefore also movie canon.

Yes it's not satifying at all. But a few things ARE canon.

 

For instance, the Old Republic logo is the same as the one in Swtor because it was in an episode of Clone Wars.

However, anything that isn't shown could be changed. So Manaan could be a mountain planet in the new canon for all we know. But at least it's there.

 

I should have clarified. I already know movie canon includes the television shows directly related to the movies, e.g. The Clone Wars. I got sick of typing that into every post. When I say "movie canon" I also include the movie related TV shows that they greenlit as movie canon.

 

Sure, I see what you are saying but using the planet "Manaan" in the official movies is just a name. That's it. It could be filled with dinosaurs! The Manaan we have in SWTOR is still officially disconnected from the movie canon.

Edited September 22, 2014 by Arkerus

[WorldSmasher]

No. I spent my money for official continuation of Star Wars Saga. SWTOR was official backstory for Star Wars Saga and used a lot from the EU. Now, since they stated everything that was published before "A New Dawn" is non-canon, why should I bother? I want official statement about SWTOR because I don't want to play a game that is irrelevant.

 

O.K. Then quit.

[CrutchCricket]

Seeing how ADF kicked off the OU (Original Universe), I understand. He didn't just write the first spin-off, he ghost wrote the Star Wars novelization itself.

...and? The novelization means nothing as the movie trumps it. And Splinters of the Mind's Eye was overwritten by Empire. Neither gained the fame of Heir to the Empire. So who cares?

 

Zahn did use several elements from the Wizards of the Coast RPG. It's clearly documented by the man himself in the 20th Anniversary Edition of Heir to the Empire, as well as elsewhere.

 

Another (minor) reason to be pissed at Disney: their shenanigans means we won't get the 20th Anniversary treatment for Dark Force Rising or The Last Command.

[TUXs]

There is no canon.

 

This is a completely fictional story world. The only purpose of these stories is to make money. The only purpose of the "Star Wars" name, is to make money off of it, and if that means Disney needs to rewrite Return of the Jedi and save Vader, they will. There's no such thing as true "canon"...ask Trek fans about "canon" and JJ.

 

The canon is a lie.

[Khevar]

...and? The novelization means nothing as the movie trumps it. And Splinters of the Mind's Eye was overwritten by Empire. Neither gained the fame of Heir to the Empire. So who cares?

Luke cares

[LordArtemis]

Again, it seems some folks are reverting back to the old canon rating system from LA and George.

 

There are only two phases of Star Wars storyline right now....Canon and Legend. Right now Disney considers the Clone Wars series and all six movies canon. Everything else is Legends.

 

They were crystal clear about that. Though they did say that if some information is used henceforth from the EU it could become canon at their discretion, EVERYTHING aside from the series and the six movies is NOT CANON. It is considered Legend, and writers can choose to ignore it.

 

That means every book, every game, EVERYTHING aside from the series and the movies is Legend.

[DarthDymond]

Again, it seems some folks are reverting back to the old canon rating system from LA and George.

 

There are only two phases of Star Wars storyline right now....Canon and Legend. Right now Disney considers the Clone Wars series and all six movies canon. Everything else is Legends.

 

They were crystal clear about that. Though they did say that if some information is used henceforth from the EU it could become canon at their discretion, EVERYTHING aside from the series and the six movies is NOT CANON. It is considered Legend, and writers can choose to ignore it.

 

That means every book, every game, EVERYTHING aside from the series and the movies is Legend.

Correct in substance, but just to clarify a minor point: the novel A New Dawn and the comic miniseries Darth Maul, Son of Dathomir are Canon, too.

 

(And as another minor point there is also "Infinities" which, although not necessarily its own "level" of canon, isn't really part of Legends or Canon)

Edited September 22, 2014 by DarthDymond

[eartharioch]

...and? The novelization means nothing as the movie trumps it. And Splinters of the Mind's Eye was overwritten by Empire. Neither gained the fame of Heir to the Empire. So who cares?

 

Who cares about fame, I care about quality. Not that Foster's books were high literature or anything, but at least I didn't nearly gag on my own vomit while reading them, which is something I can't say about the one of Zahn's that I did read.

[DarthDymond]

Who cares about fame, I care about quality. Not that Foster's books were high literature or anything, but at least I didn't nearly gag on my own vomit while reading them, which is something I can't say about the one of Zahn's that I did read.

Can't tell if trolling or just has terrible taste.