Assassin Myths - Busted!

[Aetrus]

This sounds like a terrible example.

 

Sometimes your DCD get wasted by timing out with no benefit. This is true of any class.

 

How? Sometimes you bait out DCDs and switch off, wait until they're down and go back. I can think of very few things where you simply get zero benefit out of a DCD. It'd be kind of like if you could root or stun snipers mid-roll.

 

The one thing I can think of is Kolto Overload on a Bounty Hunter. But if you pop that and don't drop to under 35% then that's your bad.

[Evolixe]

Empty GCD's, we all know them. But I have yet to see an ability actually go on cooldown without doing anything.

 

Actually, I have seen that. Only with phase walk. It sometimes simply doesn't work, still goes on cooldown.

And no, I'm not stupid enough to forget to check if i had a net on me or not.

[Gyronamics]

You really can't think of neutralised or wasted DCD/Other abilities.

 

Outside interference or personally failing to get the benefit you need from your DCD/Other ability is well known, if you really can't think of any I can give you a list.

 

PW is a mobility tool on a countdown requiring some foresight, it's a personal fail if the reason for it not granting benefit is you waiting too long.

 

In the example given the player was playing under par and didn't realise the window to use PW was over.

 

If you want to spin off into bugs that's something different.

Edited April 28, 2014 by Gyronamics

[Evolixe]

You really can't think of neutralised or wasted DCD/Other abilities.

 

Outside interference or personally failing to get the benefit you need from your DCD/Other ability is well known, if you really can't think of any I can give you a list.

 

PW is a mobility tool on a countdown requiring some foresight, it's a personal fail if the reason for it not granting benefit is you waiting too long.

 

In the example given the player was playing under par and didn't realise the window to use PW was over.

 

If you want to spin off into bugs that's something different.

 

That's not the same.

[Aetrus]

In the example given the player was playing under par and didn't realise the window to use PW was over.

 

If you want to spin off into bugs that's something different.

 

Because I didn't need to actually use it until it wore off. And because of how Phase Walk works, once it wore off I wasn't able to use it again. I can't blow my combat stealth for no reason just to reset it for the vague possibility of me being able to use it in the next two minutes.

 

I really like Xinika's suggestion of it being an instant cast, maybe off the GCD. It'd fix the issue entirely. It's really the only complaint I have when playing Deception in ranked...although it would be nice if everyone and their mothers would stop parrying my Low Slashes.

Edited April 28, 2014 by Aetrus

[CelestialsDragon]

I honestly tried reading this entire thread to get some sort of feedback for my Assassin play style but sadly was utterly turned off by how egotistical and retarded Evo is. I am pretty sure I am not the only one who thinks this.

[Hockaday]

Heh...yes, interrupting force lightning on a Sin tank in PvP is clearly the best thing ever.

 

Forgot to mention, There is no bug on shroud. As has been stated...over...and over....and over...and over...it doesn't have 100%. It is 95%. (base 5% chance to fail).

Edited April 30, 2014 by Hockaday

[Evolixe]

Heh...yes, interrupting force lightning on a Sin tank in PvP is clearly the best thing ever.

 

Forgot to mention, There is no bug on shroud. As has been stated...over...and over....and over...and over...it doesn't have 100%. It is 95%. (base 5% chance to fail).

 

And it should be 100%. Hence it's a bug. One that has to dissapear. 5% chance to fail as a base has absolutely no use and should be eliminated at once. Should've been a long time ago.

[MusicRider]

and another question, which way do you prefer while node guarding? PW on potion to have a backup or PW into node so you can walk around it?

PW on node. Guard from 35-45m away, gives you a lot of area to hide. Never guard next to a node unless you are a sage with both barrier and cc breaker or a vanguard. Never guard near the edge of your pw range (60m) as nasty things can happen pw and with the one coming for cap (pulls, pushes all will put you way out of pw range). Most importantly be unpredictable, never guard on the same spot always. And keep on moving always and don't lose sight of the node for more than a sec.

 

and when you are try to ninja alone what do you prefer? try to take down guard node quickly or try to sap and cap? maybe this depends by which class is defending..

Ninjacap ftw. Even if it fails first time, cc breaker has 2 min cd and you can't believe how many stealth node guards will go back to the same spot. Only very best will shout no cc breaker and request a swap, and since there are no ranked wzs anymore such a shout requires too much effort in normals so none actually does it even they know they should .

[MusicRider]

2. How would an assassin be any different? I mean, sure they can phasewalk while mezzed and although that is one of the greatest features ever, will it help in such a scenario?

 

Shroud OP.

[MusicRider]

2. How would an assassin be any different? I mean, sure they can phasewalk while mezzed and although that is one of the greatest features ever, will it help in such a scenario?

 

Shroud OP.

[MusicRider]

You're saying that you can ninja cap from an Operative as a Shadow, because attack has the advantage...

 

Actually the opposite, a stealther defender always has an advantage over an (stealther) attacker provided he takes a few precautions and pre-active measures and has reliable first/second responders.

Edited April 30, 2014 by MusicRider

[Evolixe]

Actually the opposite, a stealther defender always has an advantage over an (stealther) attacker provided he takes a few precautions and pre-active measures and has reliable first/second responders.

 

That is not true.

 

The attacker doesn't only have the element of surprise, if it comes down to a standoff the attacker can also use his stun breaker at will.

 

A defending randomly using his stunbreaker, even in a standoff, will have great repercussions against good players.

 

You won't believe the amount of times i ninjacapped someone because they used their stunbreaker on my hardstun. Only to get ninjacapped straight after.

[MusicRider]

That is not true.

 

The attacker doesn't only have the element of surprise, if it comes down to a standoff the attacker can also use his stun breaker at will.

 

A defending randomly using his stunbreaker, even in a standoff, will have great repercussions against good players.

 

You won't believe the amount of times i ninjacapped someone because they used their stunbreaker on my hardstun. Only to get ninjacapped straight after.

 

True but let me recap and reiterate.... A competent stealther node guard (meaning someone that knows his strengths and weaknesses as well as the capabilities of other classes and is also taking certain pre-active measures) together with a competent responder have the advantage over the attacker who once he reveals himself he has a short window of success. That was in the time of ranked wzs which are gone. For normals same principles apply but there is too much "lag" (no voip) and "rng" (team).

[Evolixe]

True but let me recap and reiterate.... A competent stealther node guard (meaning someone that knows his strengths and weaknesses as well as the capabilities of other classes and is also taking certain pre-active measures) together with a competent responder have the advantage over the attacker who once he reveals himself he has a short window of success. That was in the time of ranked wzs which are gone. For normals same principles apply but there is too much "lag" (no voip) and "rng" (team).

 

That still doesn't give you the advantage as a defender. Defender is always in the disadvantage.

As an attacker I'll just be looking for you untill I find you. Then I'll bite. Not sooner.

 

You won't even know I'm there untill it is too late and you have to either start fighting or playing me one way or another.

Your responder isn't going to be in time if i get your breaker out and get a mez on you within 15 seconds.

[MusicRider]

That still doesn't give you the advantage as a defender. Defender is always in the disadvantage.

As an attacker I'll just be looking for you untill I find you. Then I'll bite. Not sooner.

 

You won't even know I'm there untill it is too late and you have to either start fighting or playing me one way or another.

Your responder isn't going to be in time if i get your breaker out and get a mez on you within 15 seconds.

 

The duration of any mezz does not allow the attacker to cover a long distance and cap while a shadow can easily interrupt from 30m or from close with pw. That is why one of the most important things IMO is to keep distance from the node even if you engage in combat. Stalling combat is more important than killing combat, so no need to get lured too close or too far away from the node.

 

IMO a decent shadow with some experience and a plan in his mind can give enough time for a responder to arrive even if he has to burn every single cooldown he has.

[AGSThomas]

Evo is saying you are at a disadvantage simply because you do not know the attacker is there and the attacker knows you are there. Disadvantage does not equal indefensible. It just means, very likely he will have more cooldowns than you when it comes down to it.

[MusicRider]

Evo is saying you are at a disadvantage simply because you do not know the attacker is there and the attacker knows you are there.

And? Where is the disadvantage? Defender doesn't know that the attacker is there, but at the same time attacker doesn't know where defender is.

 

Disadvantage does not equal indefensible.

Sure it doesn't equal indefensible. But disadvantage equals that the turrets/nodes would be more times lost than defended for a given number of attempts. That is not true, at least when organised objective play existed. Otherwise if that was the case, nobody would let a solo stealth defender.

 

It just means, very likely he will have more cooldowns than you when it comes down to it.

Well I think that's for evolixe to clarify what he means, as I haven't read him saying such thing, but then again I may have missed it.

 

But anyway, sure I agree with you on this, since the attacker can plan to attack whenever he wants he may have more cds than the defender let's say. So what? This is objective team play and not a duel.

[xxSHOONYxx]

Assassins do too much damage

You're right, they do so much DPS they break first place and come out last.

 

I know I'm tardy to the party, but I'm not sure why you put PVE dps leaderboard in a PvP centered thread, it more or less just makes you seem desperate to make your class look bad. Assassins are, and have always been, front loaded burst oriented; which is what you really need in PvP, not so much in PvE.

[Aelanis]

I know I'm tardy to the party, but I'm not sure why you put PVE dps leaderboard in a PvP centered thread, it more or less just makes you seem desperate to make your class look bad. Assassins are, and have always been, front loaded burst oriented; which is what you really need in PvP, not so much in PvE.

 

Madness is not front loaded at all. Anyway, that out of the way, it's there because it's an accurate representation of what classes can do if they can just sit there and whack a stationary target, which is about as maximized as their dps can get. Using the raid leaderboards just means they can't have been sitting still the entire time, and had to run around and have enforced downtime, somewhat like in PVP. Now, if Assassins are sitting in pretty much dead last when they can sit there and beat on a largely stationary target, how are they supposed to glue to a highly mobile target and maintain a maximum damage already lower than most other classes? That was the point.

[AGSThomas]

I know I'm tardy to the party, but I'm not sure why you put PVE dps leaderboard in a PvP centered thread, it more or less just makes you seem desperate to make your class look bad. Assassins are, and have always been, front loaded burst oriented; which is what you really need in PvP, not so much in PvE.

 

Well if you want to get technical, the title says "Assassin Myths - Debunked" If one of the myths is that we do too much DPS, that's how you debunk it.

[Evolixe]

I'm not going to ask for damage buffs in PvP though.. it's right about where it should be.

[AGSThomas]

I'm not going to ask for damage buffs in PvP though.. it's right about where it should be.

Madness needs more damage but that can be accomplished via survivability. Although if you look at Rage Juggs, BW seems to like the idea of buffing damage but keeping survivability low as a sort of trade off. Don't be surprised to see a damage buff for PvP Madness and no survivability help.

[Evolixe]

Madness needs more damage? In PvP?

 

Please tell me you're kidding.. Madness' damage in PvP is *********** fabulous.

I can beat madness sorcs and carnage marauders with it. The only problem is that I die too fast.

[Gyronamics]

Madness is not front loaded at all. Anyway, that out of the way, it's there because it's an accurate representation of what classes can do if they can just sit there and whack a stationary target, which is about as maximized as their dps can get. Using the raid leaderboards just means they can't have been sitting still the entire time, and had to run around and have enforced downtime, somewhat like in PVP. Now, if Assassins are sitting in pretty much dead last when they can sit there and beat on a largely stationary target, how are they supposed to glue to a highly mobile target and maintain a maximum damage already lower than most other classes? That was the point.

 

Since this is a PVP thread we can only assume you are agreeing with the notion that assassins need a damage buff in PVP.

 

Which is faceplantingly ridiculous.

 

Their burst and flexibility in engaging and disengaging is exceptional in a PVP environment.

 

No damage buff affecting PVE should do anything to their PVP damage without wrecking their burst and flexibility to compensate.