Convince me that Smash spec will not be obsolete now...

[Savej]

Leaderboards mean absolutely nothing since ranked is dead on almost all servers. Also leaderboards only take into accounts wins and mvp votes (yeah like we actually vote for the real MVPs instead of friends and guild mates). By that logic eli is 2x better than peyton because he won 2 superbowls, when everyone says that peyton is the best in history.

 

 

the game hasn't changed much since they were opened up and some servers do have activity - while the rankings are controllable by unscrupulous types thanks to low q activity, they are far from useless or irrelevant when looked at correctly. And they're all that players have to look at. One thing I can say for sure is that smash juggs were never tearing up the solo ranked qs and that is a strong indicator that smash was not a real problem.

[ParagonAX]

Seriously? smash won't be broken. The only change is that instead of smashing everyone for 9k they only smash one person for 9k and the rest for 5k... So basically smashers will have to think about who they are going to smash instead going "oh ill just smash them all"

 

Err... it's more like 1 person for 8k and the rest for 2k.

[Jadescythe]

Err... it's more like 1 person for 8k and the rest for 2k.

 

This is accurate. Of course, it depends if they have 30% AOE reduction.

 

I think people underestimate the nerf since we are basically removing 200% bonus damage given to Smash. And of course, the damage the ability did before was already exaggerated.

[Hei_Atzfel]

I look forward to when deceptions recklessness and the ability to build stats.

 

I'm not sure what this is supposed to be saying....

[Chrisweaver]

Well I really enjoyed smashing my head against the keyboard and killing everything in site so the nerf is lame in that aspect . But in all seriousness it is looking like rage will be best for doing dailies. Vig is going to be the stronger spec of the two.

[Aluvi]

If you still play Rage spec in any form of PvP after 2.7 you're an idiot (assuming current changes go live). Carnge will straight up out dps Rage with 2.7 changes, it has better utility, and it is 100% single target, and one of the best single target / healer / tank killer specs in the game.

 

I love how idiots who have obviously never played the warrior class claim that smash is "spammable". It's a 12 second cooldown that you might get down to 7-8 seconds if you are lucky and don't get stunned at all. It requires setup. It requires charge or oblit to have auto crit. I love how the same idiots claim that every smash does 8-10k. 8-10k smashes are the exception. The only way I see 10k+ is if there is an undergeared sorc on the team that has less than 1800 expertise, and I get a warzone power up buff. Sometimes even that isn't enough, and a bloodthirst is required. There have been a few freak 14k smashes, but that is due to assassin stun (9% more dmg), warzone power up, and the smashed player using old gear with expertise on it (think pre war hero gear, so they have less expertise than a naked person, 1400 or less). The stars need to align. A merc can hit just as hard in the same circumstances.

 

What it comes down to this this: Carnage is still a fun spec and will still be viable, however, because other classes are being buffed, I believe that it will be behind in the overall scheme of things. Sorc and sniper will be the class of choice for dps in both Arenas and Warzones. They offer more utility, more stuns, better CC, and are ranged, which is a huge inherent advantage.

 

I'm not quitting or unsubbing, but I'm definitely not going to be playing Warrior very much anymore in PvP. And neither should you.

[Luckeyduckey]

If you still play Rage spec in any form of PvP after 2.7 you're an idiot (assuming current changes go live). Carnge will straight up out dps Rage with 2.7 changes, it has better utility, and it is 100% single target, and one of the best single target / healer / tank killer specs in the game.

 

I love how idiots who have obviously never played the warrior class claim that smash is "spammable". It's a 12 second cooldown that you might get down to 7-8 seconds if you are lucky and don't get stunned at all. It requires setup. It requires charge or oblit to have auto crit. I love how the same idiots claim that every smash does 8-10k. 8-10k smashes are the exception. The only way I see 10k+ is if there is an undergeared sorc on the team that has less than 1800 expertise, and I get a warzone power up buff. Sometimes even that isn't enough, and a bloodthirst is required. There have been a few freak 14k smashes, but that is due to assassin stun (9% more dmg), warzone power up, and the smashed player using old gear with expertise on it (think pre war hero gear, so they have less expertise than a naked person, 1400 or less). The stars need to align. A merc can hit just as hard in the same circumstances.

 

What it comes down to this this: Carnage is still a fun spec and will still be viable, however, because other classes are being buffed, I believe that it will be behind in the overall scheme of things. Sorc and sniper will be the class of choice for dps in both Arenas and Warzones. They offer more utility, more stuns, better CC, and are ranged, which is a huge inherent advantage.

 

I'm not quitting or unsubbing, but I'm definitely not going to be playing Warrior very much anymore in PvP. And neither should you.

 

Sorc and PT > Sniper. The buffs to sniper are decent, but I don't think it's enough. We'll see though. Carnage is also arguably the hardest spec in the game by a long shot, so expect a lot of bad marauders in 2.7.

[sithBracer]

the game hasn't changed much since they were opened up and some servers do have activity - while the rankings are controllable by unscrupulous types thanks to low q activity, they are far from useless or irrelevant when looked at correctly. And they're all that players have to look at. One thing I can say for sure is that smash juggs were never tearing up the solo ranked qs and that is a strong indicator that smash was not a real problem.

 

Well it is true that they are all we have, but it is clearly not enough; so someone saying "look at rankings, I'm right, you're wrong" when logic and common sense say something completely different, is dumb at best. Simply judging the win/loss ratio with absolutely no stats behind it is useless. There have been many great athletes in all sports that never won a championship and many horrible ones that did. Makayla Maroney is probably the best jumper (male or female) in the world, but because of one small slip she only won silver, yet no one in their right mind would take the woman who won gold over her on their team for example.

Edited February 14, 2014 by sithBracer

[HaoZhao]

If you still play Rage spec in any form of PvP after 2.7 you're an idiot (assuming current changes go live). ]Carnge will straight up out dps Rage with 2.7 changes, it has better utility, and it is 100% single target, and one of the best single target / healer / tank killer specs in the game.

 

Maybe you should learn what you're talking about before you childishly flame us and call us "idiots."

 

Carnage is a joke spec, much like concealment. Your post is written like someone who has never actually played carnage in PVP and thinks he's an expert based on Torparse results alone. Well, ship dummies don't fight back. I do! If you pop Gore in front of me, I will stun you, and you will have lost your entire burst. That's all it takes. No competent player is ever going to let you finish a ravage, root or not. Carnage doesn't get the 7% damage reduction that rage gets and it also doesn't get the shorter cooldown on undying rage. Go ahead and try to bring carnage into solo ranked and see what happens. Pop gore time and time again only to be pushed or stunned almost every time. Then come back here and QQ in bold about how carnage is too weak. You'll do less damage in general for the previously mentioned reasons, but you'll also do less DPS as a consequence of spending more time behind force fields as carnage dies more often than rage does.

 

The DPS from rage will still be fine. Doing 10K to one player and then 6K to three others is still great damage output.

Edited February 14, 2014 by HaoZhao

[Ren_simp]

For focus guardians It won't do as much splash damage as it used to and will be closer to vigilance numbers wise

It will come down to preferred playstyle the 2nd gap closer in focus Or unremitting in vigilance

With the vigilance buffs it has some extreme uptime on targets now but still has windows where it can get kited

My concern is that if vigilances numbers are in fact better in pvp then focus does become obsolete Because vigilance is performing really well in pve we'll have vigilance take over both aspect of the game leaving focus Behind.

We'll just have to wait and see I still think focus will perform well much to the disappointment of the haters salivating

Over its changes because it still offers the key ingredients for melee in pvp.

Edited February 14, 2014 by Ren_simp

[Jadescythe]

The DPS from rage will still be fine. Doing 10K to one player and then 6K to three others is still great damage output.

 

I'm curious where you got 6k from. Things Rage lost:

 

-Auto crit

-100% damage increase from shockwave stacks

-20% damage boost from first tier talent

 

Assuming you are getting 10k per Smash (which you aren't against 90% of players), you are closer to 2-3k unless you get the magic crit on someone and do 4k.

[HaoZhao]

I'm curious where you got 6k from.

 

Nowhere. Until I actually get to the 2.7 PTS, I can only use fluffy example numbers. That wasn't my point. Hitting one target for high damage and hitting 3 others for medium damage is still good DPS output. I'd also like to point out that smashers tend to move in packs. Having three of them leap onto the same group of enemies and all smashing at the same time is still going to cause a lot of grief for the enemy healer.

[L-RANDLE]

Maybe you should learn what you're talking about before you childishly flame us and call us "idiots."

 

Carnage is a joke spec, much like concealment. Your post is written like someone who has never actually played carnage in PVP and thinks he's an expert based on Torparse results alone. Well, ship dummies don't fight back. I do! If you pop Gore in front of me, I will stun you, and you will have lost your entire burst. That's all it takes. No competent player is ever going to let you finish a ravage, root or not. Carnage doesn't get the 7% damage reduction that rage gets and it also doesn't get the shorter cooldown on undying rage. Go ahead and try to bring carnage into solo ranked and see what happens. Pop gore time and time again only to be pushed or stunned almost every time. Then come back here and QQ in bold about how carnage is too weak. You'll do less damage in general for the previously mentioned reasons, but you'll also do less DPS as a consequence of spending more time behind force fields as carnage dies more often than rage does.

 

The DPS from rage will still be fine. Doing 10K to one player and then 6K to three others is still great damage output.

 

He's been a Mara since launch. And most people back then played Carnie exclusively, especially on our native server. He knows what he is talking about.

 

If you counter Carnie so easily, countering Rage should be no problem, so the nerf pretty much kills what they are currently bringing to the party.

[HaoZhao]

He's been a Mara since launch. And most people back then played Carnie exclusively, especially on our native server. He knows what he is talking about.

 

If you counter Carnie so easily, countering Rage should be no problem, so the nerf pretty much kills what they are currently bringing to the party.

 

Being a bad marauder since launch isn't really a point in anyone's favour. You can't avoid rage marauders forever because they have obliterate and smash is instant, not channelled. Carnage is not only easily shut down, but it's also easily kited. Once you've interrupted ravage, they've lost their only close range root. If they used up charge to get to you, then you also don't have to worry about the root from that. Even low-tier DPS classes like mercenaries are laughing at carnage marauders because of how easy it is to kite them. You don't even have to kite them indefinitely. Just keep them out of range when they pop gore and they become a non-threat.

Edited February 14, 2014 by HaoZhao

[Savej]

Well it is true that they are all we have, but it is clearly not enough; so someone saying "look at rankings, I'm right, you're wrong" when logic and common sense say something completely different, is dumb at best. Simply judging the win/loss ratio with absolutely no stats behind it is useless. There have been many great athletes in all sports that never won a championship and many horrible ones that did. Makayla Maroney is probably the best jumper (male or female) in the world, but because of one small slip she only won silver, yet no one in their right mind would take the woman who won gold over her on their team for example.

 

You're focusing on exceptions which always exist in any statistical analysis. There are definitely no absolute conclusions to be drawn and in this case anyone's individual rating/score is at best questionable. But when you have a collection of thousands or 10s of thousands of entries you can reliably identify trends. And when you see 3k jugg/guardians and almost none with a high rating or ranking compared to 2k PTs/VGs which have entries

all over the top, you can setup some informed theories about which classes do well in pvp, generally speaking, and which are having problems. My numbers above are just for illustration and not accuracy - i can't access leaderboards from where I am right now. But from what I remember, while the number of guardians/juggs played is up there compared to other classes, the number of guardians with a high rating/ranking is a small fraction

compared to that of almost every other class. Believe it or not that does mean something is wrong. Maybe only bad players pvp with juggs? Or maybe every good jugg has a bad hair day whenever they q and they're constantly adjusting it in their monitor mirrors while the enemy healer is freecasting? I tend to believe that it means that the class doesn't have enough of the right tools to be competitive. If arenas results were ALL completely random/luck than there would be more juggs at the top of the board.

Edited February 14, 2014 by Savej

[Tevzz]

Maybe you should learn what you're talking about before you childishly flame us and call us "idiots."

 

Carnage is a joke spec, much like concealment. Your post is written like someone who has never actually played carnage in PVP and thinks he's an expert based on Torparse results alone. Well, ship dummies don't fight back. I do! If you pop Gore in front of me, I will stun you, and you will have lost your entire burst. That's all it takes. No competent player is ever going to let you finish a ravage, root or not. Carnage doesn't get the 7% damage reduction that rage gets and it also doesn't get the shorter cooldown on undying rage. Go ahead and try to bring carnage into solo ranked and see what happens. Pop gore time and time again only to be pushed or stunned almost every time. Then come back here and QQ in bold about how carnage is too weak. You'll do less damage in general for the previously mentioned reasons, but you'll also do less DPS as a consequence of spending more time behind force fields as carnage dies more often than rage does.

 

The DPS from rage will still be fine. Doing 10K to one player and then 6K to three others is still great damage output.

 

Yes, keep doing Charge->Gore->Ravage in arenas and no wonder you'll die and get stunned all over the place If I want to melt a healer or a tank or a DPS as Carnage I WILL, if I try the same thing with Rage all it takes is a 30% AoE reduction talent or an average healer and forget about it, the single target dps rage has is trash.

 

and hitting 3 others for medium damage

 

It's not medium dmg...Smash in any other spec that Rage without the crit buff and shockwave is a 2k non-crit and 3-4k crit...that's not medium dmg, it's TRASH for a main hitter. Heck AP PT Flamethrower ticks go for 4.6k crit ticks...and it ticks a lot, not to mention the epic slow.

Edited February 14, 2014 by Tevzz

[L-RANDLE]

Being a bad marauder since launch isn't really a point in anyone's favour. You can't avoid rage marauders forever because they have obliterate and smash is instant, not channelled. Carnage is not only easily shut down, but it's also easily kited. Once you've interrupted ravage, they've lost their only close range root. If they used up charge to get to you, then you also don't have to worry about the root from that. Even low-tier DPS classes like mercenaries are laughing at carnage marauders because of how easy it is to kite them. You don't even have to kite them indefinitely. Just keep them out of range when they pop gore and they become a non-threat.

Do you play this class? Besides the fact that most healers and Carnies here disagree with you, just about everything you listed is wrong...

[Tankqull]

Yes, keep doing Charge->Gore->Ravage in arenas and no wonder you'll die and get stunned all over the place If I want to melt a healer or a tank or a DPS as Carnage I WILL, if I try the same thing with Rage all it takes is a 30% AoE reduction talent or an average healer and forget about it, the single target dps rage has is trash.

 

singletarget dmg of rage outside of the 4sec gore window is higher than carnage dmg ...

is your enemy able to deny youre gore window you suck even more than ragespec. and that can be done quite easily with the amount of cc´s you are facing in WZs/arenas

Edited February 14, 2014 by Tankqull

[HaoZhao]

Yes, keep doing Charge->Gore->Ravage in arenas and no wonder you'll die and get stunned all over the place If I want to melt a healer or a tank or a DPS as Carnage I WILL, if I try the same thing with Rage all it takes is a 30% AoE reduction talent or an average healer and forget about it, the single target dps rage has is trash.

 

Yes, I agree. Keep doing that so I can keep kiting you and burning you down while taking almost no damage. You don't really have a choice though, do you? Because if you don't charge, gore, ravage, you won't have have a chance of putting a scratch on anyone who can fight you at even medium range.

 

If you want to melt an incompetent player with carnage, yes, you can. You can also kill incompetent players with madness assassins. Is anyone actually going to believe you if you claim you can hold down SKILLED, healing operatives indefinitely with carnage? I don't think so. You'd have to be really naive to believe a claim like that. In carnage, you can't even pin down healing mercenaries. If you want to convince me, show your work. Tell me exactly how you would plan to keep a healing mercenary in range long enough to get 3 attacks off during gore.

Edited February 14, 2014 by HaoZhao

[Tevzz]

singletarget dmg of rage outside of the 4sec gore window is higher than carnage dmg ...

is your enemy able to deny youre gore window you suck even more than ragespec. and that can be done quite easily with the amount of cc´s you are facing in WZs/arenas

 

It's called not being obvious and going "Z**** GORE->RAVAGE IN HEALER'S FACE WITH 4 GUYS AROUND HIM YOLOOOO!"

 

Strangely I don't have much trouble landing my burst? Is it an L2P issue perhaps, or have you guys never actually played Carnage?

 

 

Yes, I agree. Keep doing that so I can keep kiting you and burning you down while taking almost no damage. You don't really have a choice though, do you? Because if you don't charge, gore, ravage, you won't have have a chance of putting a scratch on anyone who can fight you at even medium range.

 

If you want to melt an incompetent player with carnage, yes, you can. You can also kill incompetent players with madness assassins. Is anyone actually going to believe you if you claim you can hold down SKILLED, healing operatives indefinitely with carnage? I don't think so. You'd have to be really naive to believe a claim like that. In carnage, you can't even pin down healing mercenaries. If you want to convince me, show your work. Tell me exactly how you would plan to keep a healing mercenary in range long enough to get 3 attacks off during gore.

 

Yeah, see how you kite me while I'm running with 80% movement speed around your *** all the time ROFL

Tell me who can hold Skilled OP healers? NOBODY, even less smash monkeys, they're utter shet at putting pressure on a single target who's healing himself/getting healed. There's something called "Predation" it's often your solution to all the kiting problems and the amount of people who use it just proves how many people have no damn clue as how to play carnage.

Edited February 14, 2014 by Tevzz

[HaoZhao]

Yeah, see how you kite me while I'm running with 80% movement speed around your *** all the time ROFL, stupid bads -.-''

 

Except that doesn't happen. Predation requires 30 stacks of fury. To get those you need to use up Frenzy which has a 150 second cool down. Once every two and a half minutes you can move fast for 10 seconds. Wow, that makes you about as lethal as concealment operatives. lmao I can tell you really thought that one through!

 

Speaking of bad, you claimed that your strategy against a MERCENARY is to run at him really fast. Yeah, I'm sure mercenaries will get a huge kick out of you chasing them at light speed while you have electro net on you. I can tell that you're a master strategist by claiming that you could counter electro net by running around as much as you possibly can.

 

Please teach me, sensei.

[Vodrin]

Except that doesn't happen. Predation requires 30 stacks of fury. To get those you need to use up Frenzy which has a 150 second cool down. Once every two and a half minutes you can move fast for 10 seconds. Wow, that makes you about as lethal as concealment operatives. lmao I can tell you really thought that one through!

 

Speaking of bad, you claimed that your strategy against a MERCENARY is to run at him really fast. Yeah, I'm sure mercenaries will get a huge kick out of you chasing them at light speed while you have electro net on you. I can tell that you're a master strategist by claiming that you could counter electro net by running around as much as you possibly can.

 

Please teach me, sensei.

 

Look, we get it. Carnage/Combat is a difficult spec to play well and you lack the ability to do it. It's ok. I'm sorry they are heavily nerfing one of the few spec's simple enough for you to PvP well on.

[HaoZhao]

Oh yeah because you think I'll let you get off a concussion missile off? Pretty optimistic -.-''

 

You don't know what you're talking about. Mercenaries get Power Surge which allows them to cast a channelled ability instantly. Then after that you still have eat another 4 seconds of electro dart. That's 12 seconds of CC. You're not very good at this, are you?

[Tevzz]

You don't know what you're talking about. Mercenaries get Power Surge which allows them to cast a channelled ability instantly. Then after that you still have eat another 4 seconds of electro dart. That's 12 seconds of CC. You're not very good at this, are you?

 

Wait...so you'll waste power surge on a casted CC...Oh lord...help this poor being.

Edited February 14, 2014 by Tevzz

[Tevzz]

This isn't a response to anything I said. This is you running from my post because you had no response. You've clearly never played a mercenary before and don't know what you're talking about. A carnage marauder isn't capable of stopping a mercenary from kiting. I proved this using math and then you raged out and told me you weren't going to respond to me anymore.

 

You couldn't make it more obvious that you are making it up as you go along.

 

You proved using math, that Carnage marauders can only use Predation once every Frenzy CD...that's what you proved. I showed u that even if you were to Pop hydraulics I'd still catch up to you. And I'm telling you, that mercs can't kite me on my Mara OTHERWISE I wouldn't be killing them all the time, unless they caught me in a big zerg fight and Tracered->heatseekered->Unloaded my *** off! If you were smart you'd use power surge to cast an insta-heal so that I can't get u into execute range, that's what you'd do if you're smart.

Edited February 14, 2014 by Tevzz