[Class Rep] Three Questions Regarding Our Wonderful Class

[TheSupaCoopa]

Ok, i dont know if your trolling or not, but if you are just stop. Powertechs NEED, 100% NEED a gap closer. It is without a doubt 100% bonafide needed. I dont care if we lose Hydraulic Overrides, but for christ sake give PT DPS Jet Charge! PT DPS is almost as mobile as a friggin Sorc or Merc! I even have talent ideas for AP, and Pyro that will synergyse with Jet Charge and the specs.

 

Hydraulic Overboost - Activating Jet Charge gives you Hydraulic Overboost, which increases your movement speed by 30% and makes you immune to Physics for 4.5 seconds. (AP Talent replaces the HO +4 duration talent)

 

Fuel Leak - Activating Jet Charge creates a trail of fuel that ignites from your jetpack, causing anyone near it to ignite for 6 seconds dealing ~600 Elemental damage. (Pyro Talent)

 

Both of these talents would be useful. I would even have Harpoon removed, or made tank only to replace it with Jet Charge because Leap > Pull

 

While I agree with gaining Jet Charge, Harpoon and Hydraulic overrides are way too invaluable to loose.

 

Jet Charge Changes(To be balanced for DPS and Tank) could include:

- decrease damage by 50%

- increase CD to 20s(up from 15s)

- decrease root time to 2s(Down from 4s)

 

Tanks could spec into a faster CD(15s), longer root(4s), and increased Threat, while Tactics could have a damage boost(10%) after using Jet Charge, and Pyro would get fuel leak(DoT).

Edited March 3, 2014 by TheSupaCoopa

[TheSupaCoopa]

Duran'del here:

 

Honestly, BW needs to look at the CD of Shoulder Cannon. Id the 4 missiles are not used when you side or the timer reaches 0, it goes on CD. This is obnoxious in PvP. The Shoulder cannon Missiles need to be permanent buffs and the CD should reset when you die. It would also be nice if the CD was decreased by 15-30s.

[TACeMossie]

Duran'del here:

 

Honestly, BW needs to look at the CD of Shoulder Cannon. Id the 4 missiles are not used when you side or the timer reaches 0, it goes on CD. This is obnoxious in PvP. The Shoulder cannon Missiles need to be permanent buffs and the CD should reset when you die. It would also be nice if the CD was decreased by 15-30s.

 

Hes onto something you know.

 

e.g. What if shoulder cannon was redesigned so instead of loading 4 missiles and letting you spam it out, its just on a 15 second cooldown (talent in AP tree reduces cooldown by 2.5/5/7.5 instead of loading more missiles) - DPS increase, but hurts more than it helps in PvP (and lets be honest... Aside from shield tech PTs are obscenely good in PvP).

 

Then we just double the damage of Heat blast or something and call it a day.

 

However, these are not "3 Suggestions to help our wonderful class", but rather we are trying to formulate 3 questions relating to the class. I think we should just get off the topic of suggesting adding jet charge to all specs, and throwing out suggestions everywhere, and get back on topic.

 

Heres what I picked up to be the basics of our questions:

 

SHIELD SPEC

Worst PvP tank due to no hybridability (unlike juggs - seriously they need to tie the ravage proc to Shien form) and weak damage output (unlike sins), and no burst cooldowns (Both)

 

ADVANCED POWERTECH

Lowest Sustained single target spec, issues with requiring flame barrage proc for sub-par damage output due to it being a necessary part of the resource management (the best parse on a debuffed 1-mill dummy was 3400dps, and that was with 100% uptime on flame barrage and 10 seconds between rocket punches) and generally poor damage output.

 

PYROTECH

Issues with resource management (relies on a proc that stuffs up at the worst times to get resources back), as well as severely hurt by alacrity, yet being forced to take an alacrity talent to have its energy return talents.

 

Thats the problems with each spec right now. And questions need to be formulated around said problems that the devs can properly respond to.

 

If there are any more issues, its just I feel like HtL is a little too small a boost for my liking in speed. Its just a thing that annoys me that I can't use it to run around quickly indoors/in pvp while my rocket boots are on cooldown/disabled due to PvP, and Im not expecting a 20% increase to its boost anytime soon, but if it happens I wont complain...

Edited March 3, 2014 by TACeMossie

[Mularky]

Hes onto something you know.

 

e.g. What if shoulder cannon was redesigned so instead of loading 4 missiles and letting you spam it out, its just on a 15 second cooldown (talent in AP tree reduces cooldown by 2.5/5/7.5 instead of loading more missiles) - DPS increase, but hurts more than it helps in PvP (and lets be honest... Aside from shield tech PTs are obscenely good in PvP).

 

Then we just double the damage of Heat blast or something and call it a day.

 

However, these are not "3 Suggestions to help our wonderful class", but rather we are trying to formulate 3 questions relating to the class. I think we should just get off the topic of suggesting adding jet charge to all specs, and throwing out suggestions everywhere, and get back on topic.

 

Heres what I picked up to be the basics of our questions:

 

SHIELD SPEC

Worst PvP tank due to no hybridability (unlike juggs - seriously they need to tie the ravage proc to Shien form) and weak damage output (unlike sins), and no burst cooldowns (Both)

 

ADVANCED POWERTECH

Lowest Sustained single target spec, issues with requiring flame barrage proc for sub-par damage output due to it being a necessary part of the resource management (the best parse on a debuffed 1-mill dummy was 3400dps, and that was with 100% uptime on flame barrage and 10 seconds between rocket punches) and generally poor damage output.

 

PYROTECH

Issues with resource management (relies on a proc that stuffs up at the worst times to get resources back), as well as severely hurt by alacrity, yet being forced to take an alacrity talent to have its energy return talents.

 

Thats the problems with each spec right now. And questions need to be formulated around said problems that the devs can properly respond to.

 

If there are any more issues, its just I feel like HtL is a little too small a boost for my liking in speed. Its just a thing that annoys me that I can't use it to run around quickly indoors/in pvp while my rocket boots are on cooldown/disabled due to PvP, and Im not expecting a 20% increase to its boost anytime soon, but if it happens I wont complain...

 

I'm not a big fan of this idea. Mainly becuase shoulder cannon is a huge part of burst in both dps specs.

[OM-AR]

I'm not a big fan of this idea. Mainly becuase shoulder cannon is a huge part of burst in both dps specs.

 

It has a very low dps contribution at pve though.

[Kooziejr]

Ok, i dont know if your trolling or not, but if you are just stop. Powertechs NEED, 100% NEED a gap closer. It is without a doubt 100% bonafide needed. I dont care if we lose Hydraulic Overrides, but for christ sake give PT DPS Jet Charge! PT DPS is almost as mobile as a friggin Sorc or Merc! I even have talent ideas for AP, and Pyro that will synergyse with Jet Charge and the specs.

 

Hydraulic Overboost - Activating Jet Charge gives you Hydraulic Overboost, which increases your movement speed by 30% and makes you immune to Physics for 4.5 seconds. (AP Talent replaces the HO +4 duration talent)

 

Fuel Leak - Activating Jet Charge creates a trail of fuel that ignites from your jetpack, causing anyone near it to ignite for 6 seconds dealing ~600 Elemental damage. (Pyro Talent)

 

Both of these talents would be useful. I would even have Harpoon removed, or made tank only to replace it with Jet Charge because Leap > Pull

 

1) You don't know how to play a PT

2) Re roll a mara/jug

 

You are clearly a PvE players and that is fine...I can tell you play absolutely zero PvP and if you do you are a terribad. Jet charge is not as good as hydraulics in PvP...in fact it would completely fk you over standing on Melee dps...Son...you don't understand the class MECHANIC. IT IS NOT A 4M class----THEREFORE THERE CANNOT BE A 4M gap closer! YOU NEED TO RE ROLL A MARAUDER OR JUGGERNAUT IF U WANT A GAP CLOSER - THEY ARE 4M classes! Do you understand this?

 

In PvE the problem IS NOT the gap closer....People get less DPS on dummies regardless (THey start 4m from the dummy)!. YOU NEED THE SUSTAINED DPS FIXED....IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH GAP CLOSING..YOU ARE A BAD PLAYER IF U THINK PTS NEED A GAP CLOSER OR THAT THIS WILL SOMEHOW INCREASE THEIR DPS TO COMPETITIVE LEVELS....

 

You can all argue tooth and nail for the next 10 years that PTs need a gap closer. IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN. THAT IS NOT THE CLASS MECHANIC. Please stop suggesting this....It WILL NEVER HAPPEN. Saying "we need a gap closer" will not solve this problem...it makes you look stupid on the forums to the people who actually used them more than 2 weeks because people have said that every patch since 1.1.....When 2.7 rolls around there will be NO GAP CLOSER JET CHARGE ADDED FOR DPS. So, either RE ROLL or L2P PT properly. Read past threads to learn HOW TO PLAY PT properly. You clearly DO NOT UNDERSTAND and it is too hard for you if you think you need a gap closer. GO PLAY ANNIHILATION MARAUDER they have a gap closer on a Very low cooldown...you will enjoy that.

 

Rant over.

 

Scenario for you based on your suggestion: Sniper Vs PT in a node fight 1 v 1 from 35m start away from eachother assuming no hydraulic override and jet charge instead.

 

Sniper: Legshot @ 35 Meters

Sniper: Explosive Probe @ 35 Meters

Sniper: Ambush @ 35 Meters

Sniper: Followthrough

 

PT - Uses first attack (YOU CANNOT CHARGE A SNIPER!) Don't forget legshot coming again in 8 seconds when hes 25M away again after a roll (Charge and Grapple don't work on sniper!)

You lose 80% to 0%

 

WHAT? you used your CC breaker on legshot?

 

Sniper: Flashbang

Sniper: Explosive Probe

Sniper: Ambush

Sniper: Followthrough

Sniper: roll away

Sniper: Leg shot

Sniper: Series of Shots followthrough

Sniper: Takedown

 

So as you can see....with your change in mechanics are you a completely useless class against any decent sniper and cannot kite Melee at all.....which is terrible because melee will kill you quicker from 4m than you can kill them...

 

I know you won't understand this. I have tried explaining the whole "jet charge" thing so many times but people don't get the class. They think they need to be on top of everyone and everything and if they get knocked back to 16-17 metres in a raid that they need to "CHARGE BACK" LOL L2P. Learn to use explosive dart. It does more damage than force leap and by the time the GCD you are back within 10m anyways. The only time when PT gap closer would be nice is at 25-30M away..but hey L2P the class and you won't be that far away. Over and out. Rant now officially over. One more thing. L2P

Edited March 3, 2014 by Kooziejr

[Mathemagica]

I've said so in my first post, but I feel I should say it again. The top issue of Powertech tanks in my opinion is the conflict between defense and the talents Shield Vents, Hydraulic Shields and Heat Screen.

If we have to choose one (and only one) question about Shield Tech, my vote goes to the following question (or the same question with other words):

 

The Shield Tech tree contains several talents - Shield Vents, Hydraulic Shields and Heat Screen to be precise - that are triggered when shielding an attack, but not when an attack is parried, dodged, resisted etc. Increasing the defense value on a Powertech tank decreases the chance of shielding an attack, hence it reduces the chance of triggering these skills.

It is true for every tank that higher defense reduces his/her practical shield chance, because less attacks make it to the point where they can be shielded. However, Powertech tanks suffer more under this effect than the other two tanking trees, since there are several mechanics in the Shield Tech tree that require shielding and not dodging etc. to get triggered.

This becomes even more problematic when theory crafters suggest that, in order to maximize mean mitigation, Powertech tanks need a lot of defense.

In short, the defense stat conflicts with the mechanics of Powertech tanks. Could we see a change to this such that the 'conflict' between defense and shield doesn't interfere with tree mechanics (for example by making the talents mentioned above additionally trigger whenever an attack gets dodged, parried, resisted)?

 

 

 

I like Blitz-Wing's question about our dps trees, but we need to be able to back it up somehow. The way the question is put, they might simply say that their metrics indicate otherwise.

[TheSupaCoopa]

1) You don't know how to play a PT

2) Re roll a mara/jug

 

You are clearly a PvE players and that is fine...I can tell you play absolutely zero PvP and if you do you are a terribad. Jet charge is not as good as hydraulics in PvP...in fact it would completely fk you over standing on Melee dps...Son...you don't understand the class MECHANIC. IT IS NOT A 4M class----THEREFORE THERE CANNOT BE A 4M gap closer! YOU NEED TO RE ROLL A MARAUDER OR JUGGERNAUT IF U WANT A GAP CLOSER - THEY ARE 4M classes! Do you understand this?

 

In PvE the problem IS NOT the gap closer....People get less DPS on dummies regardless (THey start 4m from the dummy)!. YOU NEED THE SUSTAINED DPS FIXED....IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH GAP CLOSING..YOU ARE A BAD PLAYER IF U THINK PTS NEED A GAP CLOSER OR THAT THIS WILL SOMEHOW INCREASE THEIR DPS TO COMPETITIVE LEVELS....

 

You can all argue tooth and nail for the next 10 years that PTs need a gap closer. IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN. THAT IS NOT THE CLASS MECHANIC. Please stop suggesting this....It WILL NEVER HAPPEN. Saying "we need a gap closer" will not solve this problem...it makes you look stupid on the forums to the people who actually used them more than 2 weeks because people have said that every patch since 1.1.....When 2.7 rolls around there will be NO GAP CLOSER JET CHARGE ADDED FOR DPS. So, either RE ROLL or L2P PT properly. Read past threads to learn HOW TO PLAY PT properly. You clearly DO NOT UNDERSTAND and it is too hard for you if you think you need a gap closer. GO PLAY ANNIHILATION MARAUDER they have a gap closer on a Very low cooldown...you will enjoy that.

 

Rant over.

 

Scenario for you based on your suggestion: Sniper Vs PT in a node fight 1 v 1 from 35m start away from eachother assuming no hydraulic override and jet charge instead.

 

Sniper: Legshot @ 35 Meters

Sniper: Explosive Probe @ 35 Meters

Sniper: Ambush @ 35 Meters

Sniper: Followthrough

 

PT - Uses first attack (YOU CANNOT CHARGE A SNIPER!) Don't forget legshot coming again in 8 seconds when hes 25M away again after a roll (Charge and Grapple don't work on sniper!)

You lose 80% to 0%

 

WHAT? you used your CC breaker on legshot?

 

Sniper: Flashbang

Sniper: Explosive Probe

Sniper: Ambush

Sniper: Followthrough

Sniper: roll away

Sniper: Leg shot

Sniper: Series of Shots followthrough

Sniper: Takedown

 

So as you can see....with your change in mechanics are you a completely useless class against any decent sniper and cannot kite Melee at all.....which is terrible because melee will kill you quicker from 4m than you can kill them...

 

I know you won't understand this. I have tried explaining the whole "jet charge" thing so many times but people don't get the class. They think they need to be on top of everyone and everything and if they get knocked back to 16-17 metres in a raid that they need to "CHARGE BACK" LOL L2P. Learn to use explosive dart. It does more damage than force leap and by the time the GCD you are back within 10m anyways. The only time when PT gap closer would be nice is at 25-30M away..but hey L2P the class and you won't be that far away. Over and out. Rant now officially over. One more thing. L2P

Duran'del here:

 

I fail to see how we are not a 4m class. We are supposed to use Rocket punch rotationally. 100% chance to proc CGC, 45% chance to proc PPA, increased damage... and that's for Pyro.

AP uses it as resource management and also to proc rail shot autocrits.

 

And stop saying "L2P" because of has to be the stupidest response ever. People seem to thing its the answer to everything. Your house got robbed? L2P. Your coffee's cold? L2P

[TheSupaCoopa]

I think a good question to ask would be:

 

"Compared to the two other tanks, Power techs have very low utility. Whereas Assassins get a healing boost, along with stealth revives, and Juggernauts gain a friendly leap and a raid-wide damage shield. How could Power techs get more utility, without making other tanks less important?"

[OM-AR]

Regarding pve dps so far we have:

 

1- Give Jet charge with a fire trail talent for dps ( nice AOE and extremely fun mechanic )

2- Remove CD on shoulder cannon, increase damage but put it on a 6-12 seconds cool down this would be a direct increase to dps on both specs, more so on AP.

 

I'd like to throw out a few:

 

1- Give retractable blade and incendiary missle a cool down ( e.g. 10 seconds for activation + GCD ) but reduce their Dot duration.

e.g. RB does 2368 internal damage over 15 seconds, 2368 / 15 = 157.9 or 158 dps

Giving it a 9 second time 2368/9 = 263 a nice 105 dps increase. this is excluding critical hits.

 

2- CGC stacks up to 5 times. HEGC AP tree has prototype ventilation gives HEGC has an added effect of making your next flame thrower instant ( happens once every 15 seconds )

 

3- Pyro power braces skill revives an added effect of: making rocket punch explodes the periodic damage(s) on the target and instantly give the full damage of the periodic damage instantly.

 

4- AP loaders receives an added effect of missiles having a 25% chance of instantly finishing cd on flame thrower.

 

Slow day at work as you can see

[ReclaimerDonar]

Guys, stop asking for stupid jet charge and come up with some serious questions already....

[TACeMossie]

I think a good question to ask would be:

 

"Compared to the two other tanks, Power techs have very low utility. Whereas Assassins get a healing boost, along with stealth revives, and Juggernauts gain a friendly leap and a raid-wide damage shield. How could Power techs get more utility, without making other tanks less important?"

 

DONT ASK THIS QUESTION. IT WAS PUT IN THE VANGUARD QUESTIONS, AND GOT AN ANSWER THAT WENT ALONG THE LINES OF "ITS A PERCEPTION PROBLEM".

 

Other than that...

 

Regarding pve dps so far we have:

 

1- Give Jet charge with a fire trail talent for dps ( nice AOE and extremely fun mechanic )

2- Remove CD on shoulder cannon, increase damage but put it on a 6-12 seconds cool down this would be a direct increase to dps on both specs, more so on AP.

 

I'd like to throw out a few:

 

1- Give retractable blade and incendiary missle a cool down ( e.g. 10 seconds for activation + GCD ) but reduce their Dot duration.

e.g. RB does 2368 internal damage over 15 seconds, 2368 / 15 = 157.9 or 158 dps

Giving it a 9 second time 2368/9 = 263 a nice 105 dps increase. this is excluding critical hits.

 

2- CGC stacks up to 5 times. HEGC AP tree has prototype ventilation gives HEGC has an added effect of making your next flame thrower instant ( happens once every 15 seconds )

 

3- Pyro power braces skill revives an added effect of: making rocket punch explodes the periodic damage(s) on the target and instantly give the full damage of the periodic damage instantly.

 

4- AP loaders receives an added effect of missiles having a 25% chance of instantly finishing cd on flame thrower.

 

Slow day at work as you can see

 

Yeah I can see its a slow day at work. Lets see:

 

1. Buffs to burst without affecting PvE DPS - check. And bad idea.

2. Buffs to burst while also making PvE DPS get an obscenely big boost. And a bad idea.

3. Buffs to burst while barely affecting PvE DPS - check. And bad idea.

4. Buffs to burst while also making PvE DPS get an obscenely big boost. And a bad idea.

 

If this were a suggestion thread. I'd have a very simple way to go around fixing things. Would numbers need a little bit of tweaking afterwards? Sure! Would it be overpowered as hell? Who knows!

One thing is certain though - Tanks will still need something afterwards. I didn't give them any buffs other than the sustained threat of a more-often-available shoulder cannon... But thats for another time.

 

1. Remove RNG from resource management. Particle Proc Accelerator is now a 100% proc chance on Rocket Punch and Flame Burst, and Flame Barrage is now a 2-stack skill that reduces the cost of Rocket Punch by 50% per stack, getting a 50/100% chance of 1 stack on flame burst and 2 stacks on immolate

 

2. Shoulder cannon no longer builds up stacks, cooldown set at 15 seconds. Fires the missile immediately upon activation.

 

3. Rocket punch cooldown reduced to 7.5 seconds, cost reduced to 10 heat.

 

4. AP TREE - Power Loaders no longer increases the number of missiles held by shoulder cannon or the damage done. Now has the following effect.

 

"Reduces the cooldown on Shoulder Cannon by 1/2/3 seconds. In addition, elemental damage has a 10/20/30% chance to activate Power Loaders, Instantly finishing the cooldown on shoulder cannon and making the next missile 10% more powerful. This effect can not occur more than once every 6 seconds"

 

5. PYRO TREE - Power Bracer has an additional effect:

 

"Burn damage has a 25% chance to activate power bracer, instantly finishing the cooldown on rocket punch and making it do 20% more damage. This effect can not occur more than once every 6 seconds"

 

Now I know what you're thinking. "These changes are stupid! Look at your burst buffs!"

 

and then you realize that shoulder cannon takes a full minute before its burst is increased, and its gonna hurt the burst of the spec pretty badly losing that extra 1.5k dps for the first few seconds, and so the minor burst increases in other areas are no where near as strong as they appear.

[ScytheEleven]

I would rather leave Shoulder Cannon as-is.

 

The missiles do maybe 1.5 - 2k by themselves. Unloaded all in one GCD, they are painful. Thermal Det > Incendiary Missile > (Pop Explosive Fuel here) > Rail Shot while spamming all of Shoulder Cannon = dead. No more. Just dead.

 

The goal here is to increase PVE sustainable damage without hurting PVP DPS. Changing Shoulder Cannon would hurt PVP DPS.

 

And to be honest, none of our suggestions are going to matter. The Dev team will come up with their own. At this point, as pointed out earlier, we need to STOP with the suggestions and START formulating proper questions

 

And please, I beg you guys...stop asking for Jet Charge as a baseline talent. I used to think that would be great when I just PVE'd...but now that I PVP, dear Lord would we get nerfed if we had that.

Edited March 3, 2014 by ScytheEleven

[TACeMossie]

Guys, stop asking for stupid jet charge and come up with some serious questions already....

 

This was almost a double post (deliberately) but then scythe came to the rescue!

 

This second post is gonna be a questions-based post and as such will be relevant to this thread

 

Heres what I picked up to be the basics of our questions:

 

SHIELD SPEC

Worst PvP tank due to no hybridability (unlike juggs - seriously they need to tie the ravage proc to Shien form) and weak damage output (unlike sins), and no burst cooldowns (Both)

 

ADVANCED POWERTECH

Lowest Sustained single target spec, issues with requiring flame barrage proc for sub-par damage output due to it being a necessary part of the resource management (the best parse on a debuffed 1-mill dummy was 3400dps, and that was with 100% uptime on flame barrage and 10 seconds between rocket punches) and generally poor damage output.

 

PYROTECH

Issues with resource management (relies on a proc that stuffs up at the worst times to get resources back), as well as severely hurt by alacrity, yet being forced to take an alacrity talent to have its energy return talents.

 

And so the 3 questions:

 

PvP BASED - SHIELD SPEC

 

Patch 2.4 did a lot for Powertechs when it came to PvP. Its most noticable thing it brought though, was the horror that was the AP-Shield Spec Hybrid. People hated this because it was a tank that came in as a DPS into arenas, so it threw off team balance and made it much easier to win games. And the worst thing was, if both teams already had a tank it could just swap cells + gear, and prevent being at a disadvantage. The bad thing though, was that when it was removed in patch 2.6, Powertechs lost their Tank spec that actually worked in PvP - the significantly less burst and sustained dps of the tank spec, as well as having far less abilities that can be used to heavily frustrate the opponent (e.g. Knockbacks, mezzes, ect...) mean that if you go in as a PT Tank, the only thing you can do is throw your guard around. No one is going to pay attention to you - and when they do your grand total of 3 DCDs (one which can literally be moved out of) are easily bypassed. So with that in mind, what are the plans for PT Tanks in PvP?

 

PvE BASED - PYROTECH SPEC

 

Another thing Patch 2.6 did, was remove the PvE Hybrid. Now we know you dont like hybrids, but the sad thing is that aside from 1-2 obscenely good Vanguards/Powertechs (e.g. C-tor), Powertechs needed the AP/Pyro hybrid to compete in PvE situations - mainly because of the great resource management, decent sustained damage, and the AoE damage to really help in specific situations. But with 2.6, the hybrid was cut, and we had to go back to full trees, where problems really started to show. In Pyrotechs case, these problems were most obvious in the high RNG Dependencies on its resource management, as well as how a necessary talent (Rapid Venting) gave a stat that would hurt its resource regeneration system (particle proc accelerator's 6 second ICD gets ruined by the 2% alacrity on a stable internet connection). With the 2.7 changes being planned, we can see that RNG is being removed from the aresenal spec on mercs, as well as from all specs of Sorcs - but the real thing seen there is that ICDs are being modified to allow alacrity without it hurting the proc rate (see - 8 second ICD on Barrage). Are there any plans in the future for reducing the RNG behind the Pyrotech Powertechs proc system and getting rid of alacrity problems in the spec?

 

WILDCARD QUESTION - ADVANCED POWERTECH SPEC

 

This spec is probably one of the specs that really needs to be looked at. Until patch 2.6 came out, the spec wasn't a spec - it was pieces of a hybrid spec that was half shield spec in PvP and half pyro in PvE. This is confounded by it literally being the lowest parsing dps spec in the game, and the entirety of its viability in the new dread ops come from adds being a little too easy to bunch up, while its PvP Viability is tied entirely to having explosive fuel up, and the slow on Prototype Flamethrower. Are there any plans to really look into improving Advanced Powertech so it no longer becomes second rate to the other specs?

 

Now if someone wants to take those 3 questions and shorten them a bit so the devs dont have enough to make a stupid answer for, then we'd have something that looks like what we need.

Edited March 3, 2014 by TACeMossie

[Kooziejr]

Duran'del here:

 

I fail to see how we are not a 4m class. We are supposed to use Rocket punch rotationally. 100% chance to proc CGC, 45% chance to proc PPA, increased damage... and that's for Pyro.

AP uses it as resource management and also to proc rail shot autocrits.

 

And stop saying "L2P" because of has to be the stupidest response ever. People seem to thing its the answer to everything. Your house got robbed? L2P. Your coffee's cold? L2P

 

1 move in pyro is 4 metres and 2 in AP. Are you seriously calling that a melee class?

 

Compare that to carnage (basic attack, battering assault, ravage, gore, massacre, slow etc)...Are some of you really that thick that you don't see the difference? Rotationally yes, we come in for 4 metres once every 9 seconds or so in pyro and about the same in AP (apply them both at once etc).

 

Im not usually a jerk on the forums but seriously THIS IS A L2P issue. And if you cannot see it by now PLEASE do not respond to me as I have no time for people asking for stupid "buffs" which are actually nerfs to good players who play the class properly.

 

Let me guess..snipers are melee because they have a 4m stun? and mercs are melee because they have a root or whatever it is on their rocket punch? zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz I grow weary of this.

Edited March 3, 2014 by Kooziejr

[Kooziejr]

I would rather leave Shoulder Cannon as-is.

 

The missiles do maybe 1.5 - 2k by themselves. Unloaded all in one GCD, they are painful. Thermal Det > Incendiary Missile > (Pop Explosive Fuel here) > Rail Shot while spamming all of Shoulder Cannon = dead. No more. Just dead.

 

The goal here is to increase PVE sustainable damage without hurting PVP DPS. Changing Shoulder Cannon would hurt PVP DPS.

 

And to be honest, none of our suggestions are going to matter. The Dev team will come up with their own. At this point, as pointed out earlier, we need to STOP with the suggestions and START formulating proper questions

 

And please, I beg you guys...stop asking for Jet Charge as a baseline talent. I used to think that would be great when I just PVE'd...but now that I PVP, dear Lord would we get nerfed if we had that.

 

Nice to see some sensible people on the forums.

[Blitz-wing]

PvP Question:

PT tanks in PvP lack the burst defensives of Assassins (shroud) and Juggs (reflect). Further, PT tanks have a distinct lack of long CC compared to juggs (intimidating road - 6 sec mez), and sins (whirlwhind - 8 second cc). The classes all have 2 hard stuns but pts have no Mez/CC. To summarise, We neither have a burst defensive cooldown to stop large amounts of incoming damage or a CC/Mez that the other tank classes do and makes them very powerful in PvP. We understand that Powertech tanks are in a good place right now in PvE so a new defensive cooldown is probably out of the question for reasons of game mechanics. But a 6 - 8 second CC will have no bearing on PvE and will increase PT tank viability in PvP (especially Arenas). Both sins and juggs pick up stun talents in their tank tree.

How does the Combat Team justify this in-balance between the Tanking Classes?

 

PvE Question:

Pyrotech DPS in PvE content is below all other advanced classes DPS, excluding Assassin's. However in PvP content Pyrotech DPS is at a competent level. It has been shown, by a select few, that Pyrotech's can complete with any class in DPS, however for the vast majority of player's Heat Management & Proc RNG are the deciding factors. Heat Management is determined by Proc RNG. Proc RNG is affected by lag, low proc rates & alacrity. The Alacrity in the Rapid Venting talent de-sync's the PPA Proc, reducing DPS & increasing Heat Management.

We would like to hear the Combat Team's thoughts on Pyrotech DPS in regards to both the over statement & the fact that other classes have had their RNG mechanics reduced or removed.

 

Other:

Set-Bonus Issues:

PvE 2-pc - Reduces Explosive Fuels cooldown by 15 seconds.

This is a waste, using both your EF & click relic (2min CD) is a DPS gain. Shoulder Cannon has a 1:30 CD + a 15sec reload + 15sec usage time = 2min.

There is no point in having a reduced CD if you are better to wait that extra time for a larger increase.

This would be a good place to assist Powertech's with gap closing in PvE, adding to the speed boost given by Hydraulic Overrides (from 30% to 100%). We feel this will help the PT DPS in PvE while not affecting PvP performance.

[JMagee]

Blitz,

 

I don't particularly like your PvE question. It's convoluted, confusing, and it sort of argues with itself.

 

1. You can't say that Pyro DPS is sub-par and then add a qualifier saying some people are really good at it. I don't know how BW balances classes, or the right way to do it, (Floor, median or theoretical highest with 100% perfect proc rate) but it's a tough spec to excel at for sure. I agree it could use some sustained DPS love in PvE, but when you add a clause saying some people show it's fine, it really weakens your argument.

 

2. Proc RNG is not affected by lag or low proc rates. That doesn't make any sense. A run a bad RNG does ruin Ammo management, but if anything lag would not negatively impact proc rate. If anything an argument could be made that a little bit of extra lag would counteract the alacrity bonus, which can throw Ionic Accelerator procs off. Proc RNG is proc RNG, it's independent of anything other than the roll of a die. And that alacrity buff.

 

3. I agree that the 2-piece set bonus does not sync up well with a clicky relic, and that it probably is a DPS loss. But there is a pretty strong consensus that the BiS PvE relics are FR and SA. So if you have a clicky, EF CD reduction is a burden, but if you have an FR/SA combo, the CD reduction is a small DPS gain.

 

As far as ideas on how to adjust PvE DPS without altering PvP DPS. Well, that is a tricky ask for sure.

 

I think the "easiest" way to do it would be to increase DoT duration on Assault Plastique/IR and/or slight cost reduction of IP/SS (I'm terri-bad at PT terms, pardon my VG sensibilities). I wouldn't necessarily change the CD timer of AP, but if you increased the DoT duration, and kept the DPS of it constant, it would allow some more filler time for IP/SS and HiB procs.

 

I just don't see how you can tune instant cast abilities to do more damage without OPing them in PvP. I would love if Pyro got a SC buff, or at least something unique about it, but what, I don't have a clue.

 

While I don't think it needs a question, a threat adjustment to harpoon wouldn't be a bad fix in addition. I assume the reason it generates so little threat compared to the shadow pull is because it's a class baseline ability instead of a tank tree ability. So it's a bit more forgiving, threat wise, if a DPS uses it at a dumb time. But for end-game it should definitely generate a comparable amount of threat. DPS should know better anyway.

 

And put me on the "please no Storm as a baseline talent" band wagon. It just doesn't jive with anything. I agree it's terrible having to traverse long distances as a VG/PT, but a gap closer is so not needed.

Edited March 3, 2014 by JMagee

[Ottoattack]

There was a lot of of discusion of jet charge in this thread and PT/VG forums lately. For seasonal players here is why it is not a good idea. PLEASE STOP REQUESTING IT.

 

For PvE. I like JMagee idea of increasing the duration of dots for PvE. That has no impact at all in PvP. I still think the entire pyro tree needs a major overhaul, but this should come with level increase not as a current class balance. Adding 3 more secs on both IM, TD dot and retractable blade can help PvE a bit.

Edited March 3, 2014 by Ottoattack

[Brunner_Venda]

I've said so in my first post, but I feel I should say it again. The top issue of Powertech tanks in my opinion is the conflict between defense and the talents Shield Vents, Hydraulic Shields and Heat Screen.

If we have to choose one (and only one) question about Shield Tech, my vote goes to the following question (or the same question with other words):

 

The Shield Tech tree contains several talents - Shield Vents, Hydraulic Shields and Heat Screen to be precise - that are triggered when shielding an attack, but not when an attack is parried, dodged, resisted etc. Increasing the defense value on a Powertech tank decreases the chance of shielding an attack, hence it reduces the chance of triggering these skills.

It is true for every tank that higher defense reduces his/her practical shield chance, because less attacks make it to the point where they can be shielded. However, Powertech tanks suffer more under this effect than the other two tanking trees, since there are several mechanics in the Shield Tech tree that require shielding and not dodging etc. to get triggered.

This becomes even more problematic when theory crafters suggest that, in order to maximize mean mitigation, Powertech tanks need a lot of defense.

In short, the defense stat conflicts with the mechanics of Powertech tanks. Could we see a change to this such that the 'conflict' between defense and shield doesn't interfere with tree mechanics (for example by making the talents mentioned above additionally trigger whenever an attack gets dodged, parried, resisted)?

 

 

 

I like Blitz-Wing's question about our dps trees, but we need to be able to back it up somehow. The way the question is put, they might simply say that their metrics indicate otherwise.

 

This here. A guildie of mine was saying the same thing.

 

Stacking defense makes you a better tank, but your shield activation abilities don't go off as often, which screws your DPS and heat management.

 

This guy understands tank mechanics, and this needs to be one of our questions.

Edited March 3, 2014 by Brunner_Venda

[WillLongstick]

Yes this question.

 

And:

 

PT tanks in PvP lack the burst defensives of Assassins (shroud) and Juggs (reflect). Further, PT tanks have a distinct lack of long CC compared to juggs (intimidating road - 6 sec mez), and sins (whirlwhind - 8 second cc). The classes all have 2 hard stuns but pts have no Mez/CC. To summarise, We neither have a burst defensive cooldown to stop large amounts of incoming damage or a CC/Mez that the other tank classes do and makes them very powerful in PvP. We understand that Powertech tanks are in a good place right now in PvE so a new defensive cooldown is probably out of the question for reasons of game mechanics. But a 6 - 8 second CC will have no bearing on PvE and will increase PT tank viability in PvP (especially Arenas). Both sins and juggs pick up stun talents in their tank tree...would there be any plans to give PTs a CC talent in their tanking tree in the future?

 

This is a PVP tank question I can get behind. Wording should be cleaned up so it doesn't come across as another VG "perception problem" question, but this is the correct direction to keep PVE Shield Tech unchanged.

 

Couple things: I primarily playing a PT tank in endgame PVE content, I'd rather lose Jet Charge than lose Hydraulic Overrides. That's our mechanic cheeser over Shroud and Saber Reflect. Get off the gap-closer for everyone idea.

 

I understand why people want Shoulder Cannon to be more consistent damage (at least for PVE). The sacrifices though aren't just PVP burst, this change to Shoulder Cannon would mess with the overall PVE tank balance (which is in a spectacular place right now). Right now, you can use 4 Shoulder Cannon missiles every 1:50 to heal for a total of 20% max health. 78s put a PT tank at ~44k health, so 0.2*44 = 8.8k healing. Divide by 110 seconds and we currently have Shoulder Cannon healing an average of 80 HPS. Putting Shoulder Cannon on a 10 second CD would up a PTs healing to 220 HPS. That's an imbalance that would need to be corrected in a way we won't like.

 

Think about removing the RNG from Pyro. If that happens then Pyro is a 4 button rotation that now requires no thought or reaction to procs. If you want Pyro to play like a Speak & Spell, sure keep asking for RNG to be removed.

 

The threat on PT grapple is annoyingly low as a tank (don't even bother using it for threat, Jet Charge has higher threat). Remember this is due to DPS having the grapple, and DPS not necessarily wanting 9k threat immediately when pulling something for mechanical reasons (NIM Kephess bombers). I do wish this would be addressed either by a Shield Tech talent or a modification from Ion Gas Cylinder.

 

Shield Tech talents require you to shield an attack. Perhaps it's not an issue of the tree being wrong, but your gear being wrong (I run 18% defense chance with full 78s and stim). I ran the numbers last summer, assuming equal post-mitigation damage, your gearing can make you take between 2850 and 3150 DTPS from melee/ranged attacks. Compare that spread to the 2400 to 3600 DTPS spread you take from force/tech attacks depending on how you gear. I think I've seen KeyboardNinja's numbers for PTs even turn away from defense now.

 

Just in general, it doesn't matter if you only PVE or only PVP and don't care about the other. Fact is, developers will not break the balance in one area just so you can be happy in the other.

Edited March 3, 2014 by WillLongstick

[Kaos_KidSWTOR]

1) You don't know how to play a PT

2) Re roll a mara/jug

 

You are clearly a PvE players and that is fine...I can tell you play absolutely zero PvP and if you do you are a terribad. Jet charge is not as good as hydraulics in PvP...in fact it would completely fk you over standing on Melee dps...Son...you don't understand the class MECHANIC. IT IS NOT A 4M class----THEREFORE THERE CANNOT BE A 4M gap closer! YOU NEED TO RE ROLL A MARAUDER OR JUGGERNAUT IF U WANT A GAP CLOSER - THEY ARE 4M classes! Do you understand this?

 

In PvE the problem IS NOT the gap closer....People get less DPS on dummies regardless (THey start 4m from the dummy)!. YOU NEED THE SUSTAINED DPS FIXED....IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH GAP CLOSING..YOU ARE A BAD PLAYER IF U THINK PTS NEED A GAP CLOSER OR THAT THIS WILL SOMEHOW INCREASE THEIR DPS TO COMPETITIVE LEVELS....

 

You can all argue tooth and nail for the next 10 years that PTs need a gap closer. IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN. THAT IS NOT THE CLASS MECHANIC. Please stop suggesting this....It WILL NEVER HAPPEN. Saying "we need a gap closer" will not solve this problem...it makes you look stupid on the forums to the people who actually used them more than 2 weeks because people have said that every patch since 1.1.....When 2.7 rolls around there will be NO GAP CLOSER JET CHARGE ADDED FOR DPS. So, either RE ROLL or L2P PT properly. Read past threads to learn HOW TO PLAY PT properly. You clearly DO NOT UNDERSTAND and it is too hard for you if you think you need a gap closer. GO PLAY ANNIHILATION MARAUDER they have a gap closer on a Very low cooldown...you will enjoy that.

 

Rant over.

 

Scenario for you based on your suggestion: Sniper Vs PT in a node fight 1 v 1 from 35m start away from eachother assuming no hydraulic override and jet charge instead.

 

Sniper: Legshot @ 35 Meters

Sniper: Explosive Probe @ 35 Meters

Sniper: Ambush @ 35 Meters

Sniper: Followthrough

 

PT - Uses first attack (YOU CANNOT CHARGE A SNIPER!) Don't forget legshot coming again in 8 seconds when hes 25M away again after a roll (Charge and Grapple don't work on sniper!)

You lose 80% to 0%

 

WHAT? you used your CC breaker on legshot?

 

Sniper: Flashbang

Sniper: Explosive Probe

Sniper: Ambush

Sniper: Followthrough

Sniper: roll away

Sniper: Leg shot

Sniper: Series of Shots followthrough

Sniper: Takedown

 

So as you can see....with your change in mechanics are you a completely useless class against any decent sniper and cannot kite Melee at all.....which is terrible because melee will kill you quicker from 4m than you can kill them...

 

I know you won't understand this. I have tried explaining the whole "jet charge" thing so many times but people don't get the class. They think they need to be on top of everyone and everything and if they get knocked back to 16-17 metres in a raid that they need to "CHARGE BACK" LOL L2P. Learn to use explosive dart. It does more damage than force leap and by the time the GCD you are back within 10m anyways. The only time when PT gap closer would be nice is at 25-30M away..but hey L2P the class and you won't be that far away. Over and out. Rant now officially over. One more thing. L2P

 

 

I have a level 32 Powertech Tank, and a level 55 Vanguard Tank, i almost exclusively play my Vanguard tank in PvP, and sweep house with things, rarely die, though dont kill things too often but am a general nuisance because of my damage reducers and Taunts. I also play a level 43 Guardian in Vigilance, and once played a 55 Carnage Marauder till i got really bored with it and deleted it for a Sorc, i also have a level 21 Juggernaut in Vengance, I also Main a 55 Operative in Concealment and regularly PvP with it. So I know my PvP and PvE. Though i will say i am on the Harbinger server so PvP isnt my main focus.

 

Also, you forget something, you can Grapple the sniper while he is Rolling... So, Argument Invalid. Just grapple the sniper, Cryo him, and run away. I dont face snipers as my VG tank because i know i havent the tools yet to take one on yet. I rarely ever think of Hydraulic Overrides/Hold The Line because as a Merc in leveling, and as my Vanguard during leveling, i never had them! I didnt level as Tactics or Arsenal, i leveled as Tank, and Healer for my Merc. So, as a result im not conditioned to use them! I typically just use Kolto Overload or Grapple them to me if i can and beat the snot out of them.

 

Edit: If you arent even open to the suggestion you cant even see the results, Maybe if you were more open minded to the idea, it could work! But since your so closed minded, you cant see what could work. If it doesnt work, then you can always just go back to Square one, and re look the ideas.

Edited March 3, 2014 by Kaos_KidSWTOR

[Brunner_Venda]

This was almost a double post (deliberately) but then scythe came to the rescue!

 

This second post is gonna be a questions-based post and as such will be relevant to this thread

 

 

 

PvE BASED - PYROTECH SPEC

 

Another thing Patch 2.6 did, was remove the PvE Hybrid. Now we know you dont like hybrids, but the sad thing is that aside from 1-2 obscenely good Vanguards/Powertechs (e.g. C-tor), Powertechs needed the AP/Pyro hybrid to compete in PvE situations - mainly because of the great resource management, decent sustained damage, and the AoE damage to really help in specific situations. But with 2.6, the hybrid was cut, and we had to go back to full trees, where problems really started to show. In Pyrotechs case, these problems were most obvious in the high RNG Dependencies on its resource management, as well as how a necessary talent (Rapid Venting) gave a stat that would hurt its resource regeneration system (particle proc accelerator's 6 second ICD gets ruined by the 2% alacrity on a stable internet connection). With the 2.7 changes being planned, we can see that RNG is being removed from the aresenal spec on mercs, as well as from all specs of Sorcs - but the real thing seen there is that ICDs are being modified to allow alacrity without it hurting the proc rate (see - 8 second ICD on Barrage). Are there any plans in the future for reducing the RNG behind the Pyrotech Powertechs proc system and getting rid of alacrity problems in the spec?

 

WILDCARD QUESTION - ADVANCED POWERTECH SPEC

 

This spec is probably one of the specs that really needs to be looked at. Until patch 2.6 came out, the spec wasn't a spec - it was pieces of a hybrid spec that was half shield spec in PvP and half pyro in PvE. This is confounded by it literally being the lowest parsing dps spec in the game, and the entirety of its viability in the new dread ops come from adds being a little too easy to bunch up, while its PvP Viability is tied entirely to having explosive fuel up, and the slow on Prototype Flamethrower. Are there any plans to really look into improving Advanced Powertech so it no longer becomes second rate to the other specs?

 

Now if someone wants to take those 3 questions and shorten them a bit so the devs dont have enough to make a stupid answer for, then we'd have something that looks like what we need.

 

I agree with these two questions, but the tank question should revolve around the defense chance/shield chance ability proc issues.

[WillLongstick]

I agree with these two questions, but the tank question should revolve around the defense chance/shield chance ability proc issues.

 

From KeyboardNinja's gearing thread:

 

HM DF Build: {2800,{defense->707,shield->1233,absorb->861}}

HM Average: {2800,{defense->517,shield->1333,absorb->950}}

HM DP Build: {2800,{defense->452,shield->1367,absorb->981}}

 

That's 17.2% defense for HM DP and 20.1% defense for HM DF. (18% defense chance averaging between the ops)

[Ottoattack]

I have a level 32 Powertech Tank, and a level 55 Vanguard Tank, i almost exclusively play my Vanguard tank in PvP, and sweep house with things, rarely die, though dont kill things too often but am a general nuisance because of my damage reducers and Taunts. I also play a level 43 Guardian in Vigilance, and once played a 55 Carnage Marauder till i got really bored with it and deleted it for a Sorc, i also have a level 21 Juggernaut in Vengance, I also Main a 55 Operative in Concealment and regularly PvP with it. So I know my PvP and PvE. Though i will say i am on the Harbinger server so PvP isnt my main focus.

 

Also, you forget something, you can Grapple the sniper while he is Rolling... So, Argument Invalid. Just grapple the sniper, Cryo him, and run away. I dont face snipers as my VG tank because i know i havent the tools yet to take one on yet. I rarely ever think of Hydraulic Overrides/Hold The Line because as a Merc in leveling, and as my Vanguard during leveling, i never had them! I didnt level as Tactics or Arsenal, i leveled as Tank, and Healer for my Merc. So, as a result im not conditioned to use them! I typically just use Kolto Overload or Grapple them to me if i can and beat the snot out of them.

 

Edit: If you arent even open to the suggestion you cant even see the results, Maybe if you were more open minded to the idea, it could work! But since your so closed minded, you cant see what could work. If it doesnt work, then you can always just go back to Square one, and re look the ideas.

 

I am not sure what this rambling is about. You say you play tank, which has both HO and JC. You do not mention anything regarding dps, which JC request that a lot some posters have is coming from. Then you say we need to be "open minded." I assume that you want JC base line for PTs. No, and here is why.