Aces?

[mr_sim]

Stings/Flashfires aren't "overpowered". In fact, they are the best balanced and most versatile ship class.

It's just that most other ships simply lack useful options to build a suitable counter to them.

Nerfing Stings and Flashfires wouldn't fix the issues, those other ships currently have.

 

Submitted as evidence for the plaintiff.

 

Seriously reread your own words. You say "balanced" then you go on to declare every other class to be deficient. That's like saying the desk top lamp is in the right place we just need to move the rest of the desk. Please hold the lamp while we move the desk. No you move the lamp or in this case adjust the scout.

[Morgrid]

Submitted as evidence for the plaintiff.

 

Seriously reread your own words. You say "balanced" then you go on to declare every other class to be deficient. That's like saying the desk top lamp is in the right place we just need to move the rest of the desk. Please hold the lamp while we move the desk. No you move the lamp or in this case adjust the scout.

 

You would think that if any ship were to be the most versatile, it would be the strikes.

 

Seeing as that's their whole thing...

[Mallorik]

Submitted as evidence for the plaintiff.

 

Seriously reread your own words. You say "balanced" then you go on to declare every other class to be deficient. That's like saying the desk top lamp is in the right place we just need to move the rest of the desk. Please hold the lamp while we move the desk. No you move the lamp or in this case adjust the scout.

 

Flashfires don't need to be nerfed, all the other roles need to be fixed so they actually fly, but if they did that the "aces" that fly them couldn't anymore.

[DamascusAdontise]

So the day 2.6 came out I called that the HUGE nerfs to DF and evasion would only sate the communities hatred of scouts for a short time. The last two pages of scout hate are a testament to my foresight. The only thing thats changed is when I kill someone now they call me a blaster overcharge no skill whore, whereas before they called me a no skill DF spamming whore.

 

How about giving credit where credit is due, the people that enrage you on scouts are (probably) decent pilots, and that mixed with knowledge of their build and how to fly it is why they are so good, not some super secret and uber build that allows them to melt faces.

 

I wont say there are not balance issues out there, but IMO I think it involves "buffing" the strike fighter and "nerfing" ion rail, not nerfing the scout yet again.

 

Scouts are fast nimble little ***** with very little armor and now reduced evasion effectiveness. There is no longer an I win button (pre 2.6 DF) your call for nerfs are unjustified, you shoot them and they die now. They can still frontload lots of damage, which is likely the source of rage, but what benefit would you provide us for our fragility in place of firepower?

 

A scouts effectiveness is directly proportional to the pilots skill, a good scout is a real pain in the ***. But lets think for a sec about all the other scouts you come across, the ones that blow up before you knew you hit them (come on you know this is true for some of you) - the scout IMO has a high skill margin meaning you can be both really good with it or really bad depending, and theres nothing wrong with this since the skill of the pilot is what makes it great not the abilities or components by themselves.

 

*Note* If you want to ***** about scouts or anything else please create a post for it, this post is about nominating pilots for their skills, bringing this type of stuff here is just lazy, get your own thread*

[mr_sim]

*Note* If you want to ***** about scouts or anything else please create a post for it, this post is about nominating pilots for their skills, bringing this type of stuff here is just lazy, get your own thread*

 

There is longest discussion thread on the GSF forum http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=705697.

[Kain_Turinbar]

Not that I wouldn't welcome some sort of buff to my Pike but depending on what it was I think it would be OP.

 

Double missile lock break scouts are very tough for me to kill solo but everything should have a counter. Gunships are practically defenseless (obviously one that you don't see or notice can cripple you with Ion no matter what you fly) as is I can't imagine being even more powerful.

 

Really I see scouts as "targets of opportunity". If there is an opening to fire on one I'll take it but generally I avoid dogfighting them (I will joust with them though) and always target gunships first, other fighters second.

 

Bombers are kind of strange. I don't see too many of them in TDM but if I do come across one I will fire a pair of missiles at them but don't go out of my way to "hunt" them. In Domination though if I see one heading to an objective I will call out in chat and try to intercept it.

Edited February 19, 2014 by Kain_Turinbar

[Zoom_VI]

Is this thing being updated at all?

[Armonddd]

Stings/Flashfires aren't "overpowered". In fact, they are the best balanced and most versatile ship class.

It's just that most other ships simply lack useful options to build a suitable counter to them.

Nerfing Stings and Flashfires wouldn't fix the issues, those other ships currently have.

 

Nah, the issue is that flashfires and stings are the only dogfighters that are pretty much perfectly designed. Every component slot offers multiple competitive choices that work well in combination, and none of them are wasted on things like magazine or sensor components. And honestly I think that's fine -- the only component that seems out of place is the armor slot, because why would a scout have extra armor? (Also lightweight armor makes no sense, but that's an argument for another day.)

 

Now, that's how a real military would do things. If you look at all the fighter jets we have today, they're all optimized for what they do. They're all about as perfectly designed as we're going to get with today's technology.

 

The question becomes, should the game be balanced around optimal design, or should each ship have at least one glaring flaw? This goes back to the desk and the lamp. Is the lamp attached to the ceiling? Is there a wall preventing us from moving the desk? Are there other desks that we should keep ours close to? It's a major decision that decides pretty much the entirety of how balance should work.

 

Part of the problem is that there's a very limited number of minor components. Each ship gets four of sensors, reactor, capacitor, armor, magazine, and thrusters... and sensors and magazine are pretty questionable. So, currently, if you get what the flashfire/sting get, you are Set For Dogfighting, and if you don't, well, tough luck. There's two changes that could be made to fix that, ideally -- either each ship only gets three minor components, or more viable minor components are introduced.

 

If each ship got three, you could have type 1 scouts with sensors, thrusters, and capacitors, and type 2 scouts would trade sensors for reactors, and both scouts get a touch more armor and shields. You'd then shuffle things around for the other ships -- maybe the rycer and starguard get capacitor, armor, and reactor, while the quell and pike get magazine, reactor, and armor, and alter their engine efficiency (power pool + afterburner costs) to make up for the lack of thrusters slot. This plus buffing magazines and sensors to worthwhile levels (the latter of which is difficult because railguns and arbitrary dampening limitations) would, I think, make both strikes and scouts more balanced.

 

On the other hand, if magazine and sensor components were buffed to usefulness and more options were introduced, not having them would be an actual detriment to the flashfire/sting. Currently, magazine competes with capacitor and loses, while sensors are just flat out not useful due to dampening mechanics. Perhaps cloaking mechanics will make sensors useful, but given the wording on targeting telemetry, I kind of doubt it. You could also have other options, such as... I dunno, something that interacts with the duration and/or cooldown of your active abilities, something to deal with your firing arc, crit chance, tracking penalties, accuracy, what have you.

 

I'm only comparing scouts to strikes, not to gunships or bombers. The latter two just play completely differently from everything else in the game, so it's apples to oranges.

[Phatbeard]

Further evidence of the same point, you talk the fighter jock talk well but again I warn you. Don't abuse the server community. Every imperial pilot who can actually fly worth a damn knows your name. Currently they merely tolerate you, It's not likely many will quit on you if you maintain 4 man premades(but no larger), however if you do want to continue fighting skilled players and not the chaff that is fresh meat that doesn't know your name yet but also are mostly without skill and likely offer next to zero challenge. Then I'd suggest you offer respect where it is due as much as you can.

 

There are actual people flying everyone of those ships you kill. GSF UI offers a lot of power for them to ESC opt out on players they have no tolerance for. My words are not just for you but any player like you at the top of GSF on their server. The "Bail On Premades" thread was started by a JC player your team is one of the ones that lead the guy to start the thread. Though he's calmed down and only the worst of the worst are on the BAIL list.

 

I know of the premade of which you speak, and outside of an odd match or two because a guildee invites me I don't participate in it precisely for the lack of challenge. Their justification for doing it and bailing unless both groups get into a match is "so we don't hurt anyone's feelings by having to fight each other." I was in their TS when they said that and had to mute my mic from laughing so hard. As a result, outside of a random request from another player to pair up I queue solo. So I'm not sure whether this rant is supposed to be directed at me or the premade offenders in general?

[Phatbeard]

Flashfires don't need to be nerfed, all the other roles need to be fixed so they actually fly, but if they did that the "aces" that fly them couldn't anymore.

 

And after the massive nerf sledgehammer to passive and active evasion abilities, Flashfires are much closer to being the glass cannons that BW probably intends them to be. Their utility still wins out over Strike Fighters, but that could be fixed with a few tweaks.

 

Who's really in a bind right now are the NovaDive/Blackbolt pilots. They don't bring anything to the table that can't be done (and done better) by a Flashfire/Sting. The rocket nerf has rendered them toothless. EMP Burst, which has the potential to be their saving grace, is useless given its pathetic range and cooldown time. Their other utility abilities are of marginal value. So they're the training wheels you have to tolerate until you can ride a real bike.

[Armonddd]

The rocket nerf has rendered them toothless.

 

Don't disagree that novadives need some love, but reduced pod damage is kind of mitigated by reduced evasion (which every target worth shooting has a fair chunk of).

[Pilgrim_Grey]

Currently, magazine competes with capacitor and loses, while sensors are just flat out not useful due to dampening mechanics. Perhaps cloaking mechanics will make sensors useful, but given the wording on targeting telemetry, I kind of doubt it. You could also have other options, such as... I dunno, something that interacts with the duration and/or cooldown of your active abilities, something to deal with your firing arc, crit chance, tracking penalties, accuracy, what have you.

 

The presence of sensor dampening seems to make sensors more useful in my mind, but I wouldn't argue that Sensors couldn't use some kind of a buff... you can argue that having more sensors on a Nova isn't as helpful as being able to sneak around more with some added sensor dampening. Besides cloaking, a slight accuracy boost or something might be nice but not game breaking.

[ptwonline]

And after the massive nerf sledgehammer to passive and active evasion abilities, Flashfires are much closer to being the glass cannons that BW probably intends them to be. Their utility still wins out over Strike Fighters, but that could be fixed with a few tweaks.

 

Who's really in a bind right now are the NovaDive/Blackbolt pilots. They don't bring anything to the table that can't be done (and done better) by a Flashfire/Sting. The rocket nerf has rendered them toothless. EMP Burst, which has the potential to be their saving grace, is useless given its pathetic range and cooldown time. Their other utility abilities are of marginal value. So they're the training wheels you have to tolerate until you can ride a real bike.

 

Novadive and Blackbolts have to be played differently.

 

I use them in Deathmatch to deny enemies some of the powerups and to try to lure enemies into range of our gunships. They can also be used to harass and break up the gunship lines.

 

In Domination I find them less useful since EMP is not strong enough, but they are still good for initial caps while waiting for your Bombers to get there, and can distract enemy recon units into attacking you and setting themselves up for the Gunships moving in.

[TrinityLyre]

I separated my "aces" list by faction (server: The Bastion) and put parentheses next to those I feel are good on a single ship, because I believe they deserve some credit as well. I also omitted people who I haven't seen play GSF in weeks. Apologies if I left someone out, this list is by no means exhaustive and is only based on the games I've played (which is 1,800+ games, about 80% Empire 20% Republic). That, and my goldfishy memory. Anyway...

 

Imperial:

Bauglir

Drakolich

Drellion // Sadishist

Sanic

Talonzz

Truquam

Xiaoyu

Iron-clad (Sting)

Naveh (Sting)

Perceptive (Sting)

Pincer (Sting)

Purple (Mangler)

Razan (Sting)

Wehavecookies (Sting)

 

Republic:

Greyline

Jubbz

Nitram

Sinshen

Wiz

Aquilon-tune (Pike)

Band-aid (NovaDive)

Irridescence (Flashfire)

Sindress (Star Guard)

Viisas (Star Guard)

Wreath (Flashfire)

Xanckef (Flashfire)

Edited February 19, 2014 by TrinityLyre

[Armonddd]

The presence of sensor dampening seems to make sensors more useful in my mind, but I wouldn't argue that Sensors couldn't use some kind of a buff... you can argue that having more sensors on a Nova isn't as helpful as being able to sneak around more with some added sensor dampening. Besides cloaking, a slight accuracy boost or something might be nice but not game breaking.

 

Sensor dampening does literally nothing if you're within 15 km of the target, because railguns. And since scout max range is like a third that...

 

(Or so everyone tells me. I've had conflicting experiences, which implies that it may have been bugged when I experimented.)

Edited February 19, 2014 by Armonddd

[mr_sim]

And after the massive nerf sledgehammer to passive and active evasion abilities, Flashfires are much closer to being the glass cannons that BW probably intends them to be. Their utility still wins out over Strike Fighters, but that could be fixed with a few tweaks.

 

Who's really in a bind right now are the NovaDive/Blackbolt pilots. They don't bring anything to the table that can't be done (and done better) by a Flashfire/Sting. The rocket nerf has rendered them toothless. EMP Burst, which has the potential to be their saving grace, is useless given its pathetic range and cooldown time. Their other utility abilities are of marginal value. So they're the training wheels you have to tolerate until you can ride a real bike.

 

My issue with Flashfire comes down to simply this. I put full charge to lasers and get the drop on a Flashfire delivering multiple shots before he returns fire in a head to head. Yet every single time my better armored strike gets blown away.

 

This is aggregated by the fact that you say you don't use offensive systems but booster system instead. Yet If i let you and your FF get close my shields still melt like nothing. I'm just using you as an example, but my point is that the strike is not properly mitigating the the higher damaging FF such that balanced gemeplay exists. There should be no reason why FF are consistently winning head to heads especially considering that really shouldn't be something a scout should be doing as they have the speed advantage that they can expect to get on a persons tail.

 

I sort of agree about the Novadive especially in TDM. That said It is a better ship to have in Domination I believe if you use it in the true scout role and the clear out bomber pets on nodes role. Unfortunately even then it is still a second stringer as far as which ship you should spend more time on for the match.

[Nocher]

Who's really in a bind right now are the NovaDive/Blackbolt pilots. They don't bring anything to the table that can't be done (and done better) by a Flashfire/Sting. The rocket nerf has rendered them toothless. EMP Burst, which has the potential to be their saving grace, is useless given its pathetic range and cooldown time. Their other utility abilities are of marginal value. So they're the training wheels you have to tolerate until you can ride a real bike.

I sort of agree about the Novadive especially in TDM. That said It is a better ship to have in Domination I believe if you use it in the true scout role and the clear out bomber pets on nodes role. Unfortunately even then it is still a second stringer as far as which ship you should spend more time on for the match.

 

You, sirs, have not been introduced to a proper Nova Dive player. Most players try to play a Nova Dive the way they play a Flash Fire, (dogfighting with other scouts) when in reality, it is the best guerrilla fighter in the game. Sure the rocket pods got a hit, but against gunships they're still superior to clusters, by not letting them hear a loud beeping sound while still pushing out high dps with lasers and rockets firing together. This allows me to kill most gunships before they move, unless they are either an ace in their own respect, or see me coming.

 

Having 3 separate missile breaks (2 being stationary) makes a decent Nova Dive player nearly un-killable by any Strike Fighter (hasn't happened to me once since 2.6), which makes a head on fight with even a great pike player possible to win in a scout.

 

On top of that, the Nova Dive's EMP field is an AMAZING support tool when running in a premade with a Pike behind me. I simply call out who i hit with it, then their nearly inescapable torpedoes do the rest. (Anastasie can back me up on the easy kills he got from this)

Edited February 20, 2014 by Nocher

[Sindariel]

My issue with Flashfire comes down to simply this. I put full charge to lasers and get the drop on a Flashfire delivering multiple shots before he returns fire in a head to head. Yet every single time my better armored strike gets blown away.

 

This is aggregated by the fact that you say you don't use offensive systems but booster system instead. Yet If i let you and your FF get close my shields still melt like nothing.

 

Seriously?! Why the hell do you even let him get close to you? Close range combat is a Flashfires speciality. Of course you get your face smashed...

That's like walking on a highway and then complaing because you got hit by car.

 

Boost away, gain some distance, turn around and use the range to your advantage. And use Directional Shields for head to head fights, at least.

Thats one of the first things i learned myself after flying a Sting/Flashfire.

 

It took some time and practice and a lot of experimenting around with components, but today i can effectively take on a Flashfire in a 1on1 fight in my Quell. (As long as he's not a better pilot than me )

And there are other strike fighter pilots on my server who can give me a really hard time in my Sting and Flashfire.

Edited February 20, 2014 by Sindariel

[Argonloris]

The list is now up to date as of this post.

On that note the thread seems to be getting off track.

Please limit discussions to the topic of the thread.

 

And on a side note, I've fallen off horses before. I remain intact as do my sensibilities. I'm open to adding both missing names from the list if those involved are open to admitting they made a mistake. I created this thread in an effort to bring some extra good will to the threads as we praise others. I hope that we can continue to do so. Best regards to all aces in the game, both on and off the list.

Edited February 20, 2014 by Argonloris

[Armonddd]

Not sure when I got nominated for TEH (but not complaining!), but my pub there is Mae'thon, not Arstane.

[Zoom_VI]

Oops, I forgot to mention that Sranishor was a imp Quell pilot not a pub. (Jung Ma)

 

also its Crinnet not Crin, Crin is just my nickname.

[Fanteen]

I know of the premade of which you speak, and outside of an odd match or two because a guildee invites me I don't participate in it precisely for the lack of challenge. Their justification for doing it and bailing unless both groups get into a match is "so we don't hurt anyone's feelings by having to fight each other." I was in their TS when they said that and had to mute my mic from laughing so hard. As a result, outside of a random request from another player to pair up I queue solo. So I'm not sure whether this rant is supposed to be directed at me or the premade offenders in general?

 

I know what you mean.. what's the point of steamrolling stuff. It's like the people who use cheat codes for console games. The fun is in the challenge. I, likewise, usually que solo, except for the occasional guildy for a 2 man. Also, making imp toon with all ungraded ships is a hoot.. when you school some folks.

[Fanteen]

Also, I'll have to say I haven't seen huge differences with the recent changes. For my two cents, I don't think GS should be able to 1-shot people (and I do that a lot), FF are a bit overpowered but its not the ship.. I think it's more that Quad and Burst cannons hit too hard. If you are a good pilot then you know how to get up on someone and rain the fire. Give Nova Burst, its a close combat blaster isn't it?

[Phatbeard]

The list is now up to date as of this post.

On that note the thread seems to be getting off track.

Please limit discussions to the topic of the thread.

 

And on a side note, I've fallen off horses before. I remain intact as do my sensibilities. I'm open to adding both missing names from the list if those involved are open to admitting they made a mistake. I created this thread in an effort to bring some extra good will to the threads as we praise others. I hope that we can continue to do so. Best regards to all aces in the game, both on and off the list.

 

O, Cruel Fate! O, Vicious Fate, to be thusly boned of my heart's true desire! I prostrate myself before thee, a worm before thine righteous scorn! May thou heapest it upon me, that I may be buried in mine own unworthiness! Verily, I supplicate myself before thee...Nay! Nay, I say! I grovel to thee! Whilst thou wash mine quick fingers and slow eyes clean of their transgression against the List of Things and Bylaws thereunto pertaining, that I may look upon it and smile, and be made whole again?

[OscarDivine]

As a small correction to the list, the player on Jedi Covenant Republic side you noted as "Kairth" is named "KARLTH"