Concern for the future

[CosmicKat]

Please back up broad statements like that with facts?

 

It's my opinion based on my experiences in game. I don't need, nor would it be even possible, to produce any facts to back up that opinion. That's how opinion tends to work.

[OddballEasyEight]

They give no evidence of any sort to back up their claims either, yet you believe them as if their words were magically etched in stone tablets.

 

You have every right to believe them just as I do to think it's laughably implausible marketing propaganda.

 

Well actually they do provide information on how they collect their data.

http://www.superdataresearch.com/services/

 

Of course, unless you are actually standing there looking at them when they collect their data, you could claim they have no proof.

 

But then again, if that is how you live your life, you can't trust anyone ever...

 

I see no reason for superdataresearch to lie in this matter. It's a simple listing of earnings from F2P in F2P/hybrid games with no inceintive to lie about it.

[OddballEasyEight]

It's my opinion based on my experiences in game. I don't need, nor would it be even possible, to produce any facts to back up that opinion. That's how opinion tends to work.

 

Then don't present it as fact.

[CosmicKat]

Well actually they do provide information on how they collect their data.

http://www.superdataresearch.com/services/

 

Of course, unless you are actually standing there looking at them when they collect their data, you could claim they have no proof.

 

But then again, if that is how you live your life, you can't trust anyone ever...

 

I see no reason for superdataresearch to lie in this matter. It's a simple listing of earnings from F2P in F2P/hybrid games with no inceintive to lie about it.

 

Well all I can say is if those numbers are accurate then people like you, who love the game without condition, should be the people most concerned about it because it will mean a much more cash shop centered product in the future.

[OddballEasyEight]

Well all I can say is if those numbers are accurate then people like you, who love the game without condition, should be the people most concerned about it because it will mean a much more cash shop centered product in the future.

 

I don't love the game without condition.

I have plenty of criticism of the game.

But I tend to temper my criticism with reality.

 

This game would be dead without the cash shop.

And EA knows that without new actual content, the game will be dead anyway.

So they will use the proceeds from the cash shop to add content.

 

Just like all other F2P/Hybrid games out there. Look at World of Tanks for example.

Completely driven by cash shop content.

Does this mean they only add cash shop content?

No.

[Rafaman]

Heh. Remind me never to argue with Oddball. Good stuff there. I learned quite a bit about the data gathering which is a great.

 

And, the average means some spend much more and some spend much less. It all washes out in the numbers. But, in my experience and in talking to some of my guildies, I know that several of them spend around 40 bucks a month outside of their sub. They can do it because they have the money and they allocate money for the expenditure. "Cheaper then cable and much more fun" according to one. In addition, I don't usually spend any, but I buy plenty of pack items from GTN which is evidence that others certainly do.

 

So... the numbers aren't hard to believe anyway.

 

As to the spacebar point. It mainly applies to flashpoints or dailies. Some repeat class stories to speed level too, but I will generalize and say that most do not spacebar through the stories the first time through. I'll even go further and say that many esc through the conversations so they can restart it and choose different dialogue options until they are happy with their selection.

 

CK, it is pointless to argue that story is not the strong suit and more importantly the advancement this game brought to the table.

Edited February 3, 2014 by Rafaman

[OddballEasyEight]

Heh. Remind me never to argue with Oddball. Good stuff there. I learned quite a bit about the data gathering which is a great.

 

And, the average means some spend much more and some spend much less. It all washes out in the numbers. But, in my experience and in talking to some of my guildies, I know that several of them spend around 40 bucks a month outside of their sub. They can do it because they have the money and they allocate money for the expenditure. "Cheaper then cable and much more fun" according to one. In addition, I don't usually spend any, but I buy plenty of pack items from GTN which is evidence that others certainly do.

 

So... the numbers aren't hard to believe anyway.

 

As to the spacebar point. It mainly applies to flashpoints or dailies. Some repeat class stories to speed level too, but I will generalize and say that most do not spacebar through the stories the first time through. I'll even go further and say that many esc through the conversations so they can restart it and choose different dialogue options until they are happy with their selection.

CK, it is pointless to argue that story is not the strong suit and more importantly the advancement this game brought to the table.

 

Yeah, I do that all the time

 

Mainly because of Biowares inability to be direct and obvious in the choice of dialogue (same thing in Mass Effect).

So while you might think you pick one thing to say, it often turns out to be something completely different.

[gurneyslabb]

You can thank the beta tersters for that who cried and cried until BW removed any and all actual consequences from the choices you made in the story arcs.

Wasnt the majority Ive been playing on and off since beta , and id still walk through fire to murder Quinn slowly

[hadoken]

Wasnt the majority Ive been playing on and off since beta , and id still walk through fire to murder Quinn slowly

 

Honestly I don't recall ANY of us whining about that. They foresaw a (legitimate) customer support issue by letting you kill your (at the time) only healer companion.

 

That said, I'd do it in a heartbeat anyway even if I didn't have Treek.

[Etheric]

The beauty of video games shares common ground with books (remember those?) and movies. They are a diversion. A departure from the persistent brow beatings that the rat race promiscuously and unceremoniously dishes out. They can be picked up and just as quickly put down. Though I've never seen a reader who was let down by a book go to the publisher's office and throw rocks through their front window yelling for them to change chapter 5 because the droid's armor skin should have been camo instead of paisley.

 

I personally don't believe that humans dislike change. I think most would welcome change, they just loathe entertaining thoughts of discomfort that are associated with it. Risk is a four letter word that many might identify with at the Pazaak table, but are scared to death of at the negotiating table. Folks need to relearn how to let go and stop choking the life out of things they are afraid of losing.

 

You mentioned nomads. Nomadism is liberating, but it is also loyalty pervasive. Ask touring musicians.

 

They are looked up to because they succeed in an environment most are too lazy or too afraid to try more than once. When 'Workin' For a Livin' hit the charts, Huey Lewis was asked how it felt to be an overnight success. To which he responded that The News was an overnight success 20 years in the making. That's what it takes. Most lack the stones to stay a course that long. They are the comedians who quit and go back to their day job after laying their first bomb.

 

Which brings me back to video games. They are just that ... games. There is no pressure to find "the one". "The one" doesn't exist because perfection doesn't exist. If it's fun, stay with it. And it's okay to be a gypsy because gypsies can be fiercely loyal too.

 

You apparently put some thought into this and i didn't want you to believe i didn't bother to read it, i did. thanks

[CosmicKat]

I don't love the game without condition.

I have plenty of criticism of the game.

But I tend to temper my criticism with reality.

 

This game would be dead without the cash shop.

And EA knows that without new actual content, the game will be dead anyway.

So they will use the proceeds from the cash shop to add content.

 

Just like all other F2P/Hybrid games out there. Look at World of Tanks for example.

Completely driven by cash shop content.

Does this mean they only add cash shop content?

No.

 

That claim has been made countless times but it really does not hold up to scrutiny.

 

Even at its lowest point, TOR's playerbase has always been decent compared to all competition that isn't WoW or Everquest.

[DarthTHC]

While it certainly would be nice to see some sort of roadmap for 2014 (I believe Eric is working on something like this), I do not share your concern about the ESO MMO drawing a significant number of players from SWTOR.

 

I have two main reasons for this.

 

First and foremost, I believe a significant fraction of the people who are left playing this game are playing it because it is Star Wars. ESO is decidedly not Star Wars. It's "just another fantasy MMO". It will hold no draw for those people.

 

Second and perhaps equally as significant, the gameplay (as in how you control things) in ESO is significantly different from SWTOR and most other MMOs on the market. I think a lot of players who find SWTOR and WoW and similar controls comfortable will have a hard time adapting to ESO's model, quite possibly hard enough that they'll last no more than a day.

 

That leads me to a prediction about ESO. I think it's going to flop pretty hard in the PC market. It may do well in the console space, but I think the "superserver" they designate for PC gamers will be its lowest population by far.

[Vandicus]

 

That leads me to a prediction about ESO. I think it's going to flop pretty hard in the PC market. It may do well in the console space, but I think the "superserver" they designate for PC gamers will be its lowest population by far.

 

Anyone else notice that there's been a lot of negative reaction towards ESO being a subscription model? Sort of surprised considering how it seemed people practically demanded AAA MMOs be subscription 3 year back. Also a lot of backlash to them having a cash shop. Somewhat less surprising considering its not f2p.

 

I'd buy a multiplayer ES game, but I wouldn't pay a subscription for it.

[OddballEasyEight]

That claim has been made countless times but it really does not hold up to scrutiny.

 

Even at its lowest point, TOR's playerbase has always been decent compared to all competition that isn't WoW or Everquest.

 

They stated that they needed 500k subs to break even.

We have been below that.

 

And a game can stay online and still be dead. If there was only enough income to break even there would not have been any development done on the game.

Thus it would be dead.

Edited February 3, 2014 by OddballEasyEight

[OddballEasyEight]

While it certainly would be nice to see some sort of roadmap for 2014 (I believe Eric is working on something like this), I do not share your concern about the ESO MMO drawing a significant number of players from SWTOR.

 

I have two main reasons for this.

 

First and foremost, I believe a significant fraction of the people who are left playing this game are playing it because it is Star Wars. ESO is decidedly not Star Wars. It's "just another fantasy MMO". It will hold no draw for those people.

 

Second and perhaps equally as significant, the gameplay (as in how you control things) in ESO is significantly different from SWTOR and most other MMOs on the market. I think a lot of players who find SWTOR and WoW and similar controls comfortable will have a hard time adapting to ESO's model, quite possibly hard enough that they'll last no more than a day.

 

That leads me to a prediction about ESO. I think it's going to flop pretty hard in the PC market. It may do well in the console space, but I think the "superserver" they designate for PC gamers will be its lowest population by far.

 

Yeah, I think ESO will go the way of SW:TOR.

It will start off strong and after a few months the "Ooooh, look a shiney!" crowd will move on to whatever else is new (or back to where they came from) dropping the subs by a substantial number. Combine that with the people who just don't like the gameplay (MMO veterans that don't like the fact that it's different from regular MMO's and Singleplayer people who don't like that it's an MMO) and you'll see the game going F2P/Hybrid within a year.

That's all speculation of course, but that's how I see it going down.

 

After that the game might pull itself back like SW:TOR has done, but that is largely up to the developers.

[Darth_Exar]

I gave it a try, wasn't greatly impressed. It has all the elements for RPG but is lacking in very basic stuff for an MMO, I think they should have another 6 months of development time to be totally honest. I don't see the subscription lasting for very long either.....But I guess we will find out in a couple of months how well it does.....Not that i don't want it to succeed but i can see it going stale very quickly.

[Andryah]

Yeah, I think ESO will go the way of SW:TOR.

It will start off strong and after a few months the "Ooooh, look a shiney!" crowd will move on to whatever else is new (or back to where they came from) dropping the subs by a substantial number. Combine that with the people who just don't like the gameplay (MMO veterans that don't like the fact that it's different from regular MMO's and Singleplayer people who don't like that it's an MMO) and you'll see the game going F2P/Hybrid within a year.

That's all speculation of course, but that's how I see it going down.

 

After that the game might pull itself back like SW:TOR has done, but that is largely up to the developers.

 

Yeah, it would be exceedingly unusual for any other scenario in todays MMO market place. If they are smart, they have their contingency and conversions plans on the shelf and ready to go on about month 3 or 4.

 

Of course any MMO can be at the right place at the right time with the right innovation to change player expectation meltdowns, but I don't see any signs of anything coming to market that would do this in today's market. The market is just too broadly cynical, nomadic, and demanding to give a new MMO any breathing room to flower without harsh weather impacting it.

Edited February 3, 2014 by Andryah

[Arkerus]

That claim has been made countless times but it really does not hold up to scrutiny.

 

Even at its lowest point, TOR's playerbase has always been decent compared to all competition that isn't WoW or Everquest.

 

What???

 

What bizarre financial world do you live on? The cash shop literally gives them the freedom to keep producing content. Its in the financial statements. The cash shop is the profit driver. It's not the sub fee.

 

You can pretend this game would have survived in a death spiral after release but I'll choose to live in the real world.

[DarthTHC]

They stated that they needed 500k subs to break even.

We have been below that.

 

And a game can stay online and still be dead. If there was only enough income to break even there would not have been any development done on the game.

Thus it would be dead.

 

They said they needed 500k subs to be profitable.

 

As the game's subscriber base dwindled, management took two very huge actions: They invested a considerable amount of time, effort, and money to add micro-transactions into the game and they had repeated layoffs of large chunks of development staff.

 

It is clear from those actions that the publisher did not expect the game to survive (read: be profitable enough to keep it running) using only the subscription model regardless exactly what the subscriber census was at the time those decisions were made.

Edited February 3, 2014 by DarthTHC

[TUXs]

What???

 

What bizarre financial world do you live on? The cash shop literally gives them the freedom to keep producing content. Its in the financial statements. The cash shop is the profit driver. It's not the sub fee.

 

You can pretend this game would have survived in a death spiral after release but I'll choose to live in the real world.

 

What bizarre world do you live in where people won't spend $15 for the game, yet you think they are responsible for the bulk of the CM items?

 

Subscribers are the BIGGEST buyers of CC's. The sub fee IS important because SUBSCRIBERS are the ones investing in the cash shop, not the folk who won't even pay for a sub.

 

I wish I could live in your reality where people not even paying for your product are your biggest customers...

[fushnchips]

If bioware can't provide decent content I know alot of serious raiders that will leave also the slow deployment of NiM content is also pushing players away and games don't survive with level pushers that just keep rerolling a new toon each month

[Infernixx]

If bioware can't provide decent content I know alot of serious raiders that will leave also the slow deployment of NiM content is also pushing players away and games don't survive with level pushers that just keep rerolling a new toon each month

 

I'm sure we'll survive the departure of a handful of 'serious raiders.'

[TUXs]

I'm sure we'll survive the departure of a handful of 'serious raiders.'

 

Of course you'll survive...it's the snowball effect that'll kill ya. You said the same thing about PvPers. How many more groups are you going to disparage?

[DarthTHC]

I'm sure we'll survive the departure of a handful of 'serious raiders.'

 

The "serious raiders" left within 3-6 months of release. There aren't any "serious raiders" left to depart.

[OddballEasyEight]

If bioware can't provide decent content I know alot of serious raiders that will leave also the slow deployment of NiM content is also pushing players away and games don't survive with level pushers that just keep rerolling a new toon each month

 

It all depends on what you call "decent content".

 

PvP players want more warzones and (some) arenas.

Hard-core Raiders want more NiM content and new Ops.

 

The problem is that those two groups (and I can't really think of any others*) are niche groups with a 'relatively' small portion of the games subscriber base.

Having both groups leave completely would make a difference.

But making content exclusively for those groups at a pace that they would like is also not feasible sinche they are niche groups.

The rate of content that these two groups want is at a level of being main content.

And that just won't happen.

 

So if one belongs to either of those groups one needs to decide to do one of two things. Either leave in protest and find another game that is centered around the preferred playstyle or be content with the rate of content added and maby partake in the rest of the content offered in the game.

 

*there are also roleplayers, but those guys are basically screwed from the start and the ones that are still playing have long since reconciled with the fact that they will get no content whatsoever geared towards them exclusively.