JediMasterSLC Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 Wow You mention how leap is an overpowered move and people go crazy talking about how X spec isn't performing up to par so leap nerf would kill them. News flash. Casting classes in this game suck. (please don't mention sniper, we all know they have pushback and interupt immunity) There are a huge variety of ways to interrupt a target, interupts. mez, stuns, pulls, knockbacks . It is a large part of the reason that sorcs and mercs have struggled so much in rated play. Within the same respect it is a large part of why operative healers are so strong, instant casts are simply much better for pvp. If you play melee, no matter how much damage you take as long as you are alive and in range you can deal optimal damage. This same scenario does not play out the same for ranged as the more damage you take, the less likely your casts will finish due to spell pushback and interrupts. If you decide to kite in order to live as ranged, your damage potential goes down even further. Then you have classes like tank jug that can reset the cooldown on their interrupt. Why am I even bothering. Force barrier should be able to be interrupted, sorcs OP. End thread You should add some other classes to your sig, otherwise it's too obvious that you're biased towards sorcs. A lot of what you say is true, but you're exaggerating some things. There is not a fundamental problem with caster specs in PvP, they just need some buffs. Doesn't look like the upcoming changes are going to be enough, but that's just because BW doesn't play their own game. In actuality, making middle tree mandos and sorcs good in ranked wouldn't be that hard/complicated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoom_VI Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 Pushback immunity is hardly useless, just b/c it doesn't fix every single problem all at once doesn't mean its not a good thing. At least now I can cast grav with having the cast reset becuase some guy threw a thermal grenade at the guy next to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Telaan Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 Jugg is the best tank for ranked from a tanking and utility standpoint only. The only reason to take either of the other options is for their dps output not for their tanking ability, and if the hybrid specs for those classes ever get nerfed then jugg will be the only option at all. This may be true. But the class is still terrible in ranked, in every capacity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LovarBoy Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 I guess we should have given the devs more feedback.... o wait... there are like 3 threads dedicated in the commando forums with lists of way better alternatives than push back reduction. There is a HUGE thread in the Sage forum too. I really hope they read it. This are some... of the changes. Hopefully only the cherry on the pie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Helig Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 Should remake the Overload for sorcs just like the commando and sniper push back.. (360 degrees) Its really stupid that only sorcs have a cone. Would be great if A: the cone was wider, and B: it would push considerably farther - at least as far as talented Commando pushback. Because, you know, it's more focused. And stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MotorCityMan Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 (edited) (please don't mention sniper, we all know they have pushback and interupt immunity) Ya, I wonder if Bioware has noticed that there are 3 snipers in the top 500; not 50, 500!? Edited January 4, 2014 by MotorCityMan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ottoattack Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 (edited) Why do you keep making the wrong changes? Why are you too arrogant to roll back awful updates? Why do you keep stacking ish on ish. Ops and scoundrels should be EXACTLY LIKE AT LAUNCH. GIVE BACK COVER, increase damage, change cooldowns back, REMOVE ROLL. done. ALL this PUTZING around. OPS at launch are where they should be now. But NOOOOO you had to jack the game by making ops the fastest players, weak, can be leaped to, pointless DPS. When all you had to do was NOTHING. GIve back cover Remove OP/scoundrel Roll or give 6 second cooldown ONLY IF COVER AND COOLDOWNS returned. I support that the healer SHOULD NOT be able to change position at will. Something else have to be offered for dps though. I still agree it should not be no CD. Give back instant whirlwind. Only for madness sorc. Not saying madness sin does not need buffs, but not that direction. Give back 30m stun to sage/sorc and merc/mando. No. Put back GBTF/UR as it was. Lol, hell no. GIve mandos and mercs an execute and a speed burst that isnt BS, or a GOOD damage reduction cooldown. Execute is a no. Speed burst? Is not that what HO does, plus knock back and some CCs protection. GOOD damage reduction? This is major lack of understanding. Merc between various DCDs and heavy armor are pretty tanky. Their issues have nothing to do with survivability. Their issue is damage delivery that is very susceptible to interrupts. Removing the push back is defaintly a plus, but is not enough to make the class competitive, considering that all of the strongest specs and classes are immune to interrupts or use instant casts. Make TC, PS and unload immune to interrupt and merc will be fully viable for competitive PvP. The push back immunity, while welcome, is too far from enough. Buffing survivability won't help. Put back sin/shadow tank healing or buff armor you nerfing bastards. Lol, no. Sin tanks are now much better than pre 2.5 except when fighting solo. In fact, is the strongest of three tanks as pure tank considering the average survivability, DCDs and damage output. STOP NERFING THINGS, buff other classes counters if you deem something OP. Your changes are terrible. Status quo. I do agree, but are also not comprehensive, thus I will wait to see the actual changes to make a judgment. But based on the highlights Eric mentioned, with the exception of merc healers, all other changes are not what the classes needed and where not what was requested and will not deliver. If anyone is curious my main is a smash Jugg. But I have one or 2 of every AC. on multiple servers and have been playing since lauch as a sub. Also, zero intrest in GSF. zero. My responses are above. Edited January 4, 2014 by Ottoattack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smuglebunny Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 My responses are above. Well I'm glad you kinda sorta almost agree with some of what I said lol. Opinion respected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smuglebunny Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 i like the cut of your jib snugglebunny. Always good to have a well cut jib. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leafy_Bug Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 Looking forward to these changes. Can't wait to hammershot myself at 3am with the light off Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cashogy_reborn Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 You should add some other classes to your sig, otherwise it's too obvious that you're biased towards sorcs. A lot of what you say is true, but you're exaggerating some things. There is not a fundamental problem with caster specs in PvP, they just need some buffs. Doesn't look like the upcoming changes are going to be enough, but that's just because BW doesn't play their own game. In actuality, making middle tree mandos and sorcs good in ranked wouldn't be that hard/complicated. Wrong, there is a huge problem with caster specs in PvP. And Depreva explained it very well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madtycoon Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 Removing pushback is the first change that is going in the right direction they have made in awhile. Most of their changes reduce the skill required to play this game. Madness dots uncleasable, removing cover benefit from scoundrels, even allowing healing commandos to self hammer shot and shell everyone all make the game easier to play (just to name a few). Class is underpowered. Let's increase damage! Removing pushback at least makes stopping casts now about interrupting and not just attacking. People should not be complaining about lockout now or shouldn't on abilities with no pushback. Lockout does very little in this game. I mean its not like it stops all output. Casters lose a lot of time with pushback and the cast times themselves. When you factor in multiple people and guard (the way the game is designed), pushback hurts you just as much if not more than interrupts. It also makes it very difficult to outplay the interrupts with fake casting. No one in this thread has mentioned that? This change helps encourage fake casting. That is a good thing. Fake casting requires a higher skill level in SWTOR. You can't rely on interruptbar here. Right now fake casting has little reward, partly because of sluggish cast times due to pushback. Most casts also have small output reward compared to instant casts. This doesn't really address that problem. When you fake cast with someone attacking you, you see this: Fake Cast Time + Pushback Time Instant Cast -> wasted interrupt Reward Cast Time + Pushback Time The amount of time saved now in that sequence could almost mean a global, especially when you're being trained by multiple people and have guard. You also now see more reward for outplaying the person attacking you. This is something that is severely lacking in SWTOR PvP. Reward for outplaying people. This change won't make gunnery and lightning top of the pack. It won't magically give them the same output when 3 people are training them as say a PT with cooldowns popped, but it is a change in the right direction. Removing pushback does nothing but help the main problem casters have. A low reward for getting casts off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azzataky Posted January 4, 2014 Share Posted January 4, 2014 Worst thing about all this is.. no smash nerf so far. Its just preview but still they won't nerf it anyway. Why they don't do it differently for PvP and PvE is just out of my mind.. There is probably more dps scoundrels than non-smash sentinels in PvP lol.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Telaan Posted January 5, 2014 Share Posted January 5, 2014 Worst thing about all this is.. no smash nerf so far. Its just preview but still they won't nerf it anyway. Why they don't do it differently for PvP and PvE is just out of my mind.. There is probably more dps scoundrels than non-smash sentinels in PvP lol.. Lol? Smash is fine. My main is a sage healer in mixed WH/conq gear as a result of being gone for 11 months. Smash toons are on the bottom of my concerns list. I'd rather have a smash toon tunnel me than a veng jug. An easy way to find ppl who require some l2p are the ones who complain about smash. It's a shared tree and guards/jugs are meh ok in reg wz and garbage in ranked while most mara/Sents don't play smash in ranked. The spec is very squishy with one burst ability that is easy to mitigate. Additionally it's one if the most predictable specs in game. It won't get nerfed because of not only the above but because smash is not the preferred DPS spec of either ACs in pve. Smash is balanced just fine in the light of hybrid pt/sins running around with 500k+ dmg and 400k+ prot and op/scoundrel healers who blow both other healing ACs out of the water, etc, etc. Them again your post could be a troll post. If that's the case. GG sir. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azzataky Posted January 5, 2014 Share Posted January 5, 2014 Smash is fine. most mara/Sents don't play smash in ranked. Don't know about team ranked but solo ranked I've met today almost every team 1 smash, usualy 2 and like 5 times, maybe even more, 3 smashers. Maras, juggers, doesn't matter. And from my experience most played builds are not usualy so fine. Also I haven't heard anyone in solo ranked complain about powertech or assasins except them being a hybrid so you get dps and they have tank. But about smash almost everyone is complaining. But might be that republic has a lot of new players so we all sux so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Telaan Posted January 5, 2014 Share Posted January 5, 2014 Don't know about team ranked but solo ranked I've met today almost every team 1 smash, usualy 2 and like 5 times, maybe even more, 3 smashers. Maras, juggers, doesn't matter. And from my experience most played builds are not usualy so fine. Also I haven't heard anyone in solo ranked complain about powertech or assasins except them being a hybrid so you get dps and they have tank. But about smash almost everyone is complaining. But might be that republic has a lot of new players so we all sux so far. No doubt that smash is a heavily played spec; ESPECIALLY among guards/jugs. It's easy. It requires very little critical thinking to play. Bad players can be meh, meh players ok, ok players good....but it ends there. The skill ceiling is low and it's not hard to reach. Players will generally gravitate towards achieving the best results for the minimum amount of effort. Smash has one very good ability: smash (hence the nickname). The rest is largely fillers that build rage up to the next smash. People blow the power of rage waaaay out of proportion. People complain about those hybrid classes all the time and call pt/vanguard players bads who don't hybrid spec. There's a thread on the front page ************ about guard and how op it is because DPS can't burst down a guarded target, and then threads ************ about X hitting too hard..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NathanielStarr Posted January 5, 2014 Share Posted January 5, 2014 The only reason smash feels fine is because Operative healing is also overpowered. I think it's also the smashers that come on here and talk about how easy it is to take out Operatives also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Telaan Posted January 5, 2014 Share Posted January 5, 2014 The only reason smash feels fine is because Operative healing is also overpowered. I think it's also the smashers that come on here and talk about how easy it is to take out Operatives also. My sage heals through smash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aetideus Posted January 5, 2014 Share Posted January 5, 2014 (edited) No doubt that smash is a heavily played spec; ESPECIALLY among guards/jugs. It's easy. The skill ceiling is low and it's not hard to reach. Players will generally gravitate towards achieving the best results for the minimum amount of effort. Normally, it would be expected that an easy spec would inflict medium damage and a higher skill spec higher damage. No, no...the top damage dealers are smashers and there is no problem, after 1 year, for that. The only reason smash feels fine is because Operative healing is also overpowered. I think it's also the smashers that come on here and talk about how easy it is to take out Operatives also. The OP "Arena" healers will be nerfed despite their sort rein. No reason for smash to feel fine I guess Edited January 5, 2014 by Aetideus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vaerah Posted January 5, 2014 Share Posted January 5, 2014 I mostly play Shadow and a new-ish Sorc. Even with relatively little experience playing Sorc I can appreciate less pushback but it won't make the class arena-worthy. The number of interrupts and their short CD make: - stand still & cast a class killer. - stand still & fake cast just a recipe to get hit with little reward. Why? Because in a game where every dog can leap or similar, you still HAVE to stand still while fake-casting (actually, fake casting + real casting pins you down for longer than the already unbearably long casting). Plus fake-casting considerably lowers your throughput. Plus the opponent team's interrupts CDs are so short that you will ALWAYS have to spend your whole lifetime fake-casting, the instant you have to real-cast (even after fake-casting) there SHALL be somebody with an interrupt available. For Madness, have BW devs ever started WoW to see how a DoT spec Warlock looks like? For Lightning, have BW devs ever started WoW to see how mage looks like? Because maybe that would explain them why WoW had 14M no F2P subs whereas SWTOR struggles keeping a tiny fraction of that. I have played both, and both those WoW classes were valid and enjoyable. Instead, in SWTOR when I played Shadow it used to be forced to guard nodes in non ranked and just told to **** off ranked. I play Sorc which is awesome in PvE, nice in unskilled PUGs WZs and an atrocious torture in ranked arenas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlrikFassbauer Posted January 5, 2014 Share Posted January 5, 2014 (edited) Should remake the Overload for sorcs just like the commando and sniper push back.. (360 degrees) Its really stupid that only sorcs have a cone. Well, people just LOVE easy kills ! Cone -> nothing against those from attack from behind ... When Concealment Op was strong, it was the most hated class/spec in the game. It was so depended on back-to-back stuns and double application of the heavy DoT opener (Acid Blade) that it wasn't uncommon to kill repeatedly without taking any damage whatsoever (easy targets were casting classes like Commandos and Sages, pre-tech override, pre-electronet, pre-force barrier, etc.). Once an Op (or two) found a soft target, it was very easy to make warzones totally unplayable for some people. I was on the receiving end of that many times, and dished it out plenty on my Op. It was the perfect troll spec, and I totally get why it was so despised. I'd like to see a re-vamp of the class's combat mechanics along the lines Taugrim outlined way back - a stealth class that is less dependent on a gimmick and that requires real tactics, innovative use of stealth and maneuver. I agree to this statement. I was too often on "the receiving end" as well - especially during the Gree Event ... ALL this PUTZING around. In German language, the verb "putzen" means "cleaning", or "tidying up". Them again your post could be a troll post. If that's the case. GG sir. What does "GG" mean ? My sage heals through smash. LOL ? Since when is an Sage able to perform Smash ? Mine definitively isn't. Edited January 5, 2014 by AlrikFassbauer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cashogy_reborn Posted January 5, 2014 Share Posted January 5, 2014 Putz = a yiddish word. Not German. GG = Good Game "My Sage heals through smash" = He can outheal smash. Dat reading comprehension... man I miss kindergarten. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Telaan Posted January 5, 2014 Share Posted January 5, 2014 Putz = a yiddish word. Not German. GG = Good Game "My Sage heals through smash" = He can outheal smash. Dat reading comprehension... man I miss kindergarten. You beat me to the punch lol. No matter how I tried to re-read what I wrote there is no possible way to interpret it the way he replied. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JediMasterSLC Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 Wrong, there is a huge problem with caster specs in PvP. And Depreva explained it very well. Lol ok, so what do you suggest? Not much of a distinction between saying that they need some buffs and saying that they have a huge problem. Maybe you underestimate what I mean when I say "some buffs". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cashogy_reborn Posted January 6, 2014 Share Posted January 6, 2014 Lol ok, so what do you suggest? Not much of a distinction between saying that they need some buffs and saying that they have a huge problem. Maybe you underestimate what I mean when I say "some buffs". You can fix Merc/Mandos problem with one easy fix IMO: make Tech Override have a 60s cooldown, 2 charges base. The problem is big. The solution is not. There are a lot of things like that in this game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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