dps meter

[KorusNarek]

Indeed,Gearscore is the one that ruined World of Warcraft.

Atm is called "Item Level" for example when 2 players 1 with 371 item level and the other 378 you pick the 378 obiously by reflex,and the lower player may be better player.

I don't mind Dps meters in the game, would be awesome to test the rotations/specs/etc.

[RiskyBiz]

You are all over the place with this post.

 

First, progression guilds don't rely on meters or, even, try to evaluate those issues during the raid. We post logs and analyze the logs between lockouts. That's the only way to evaluate performance as a raid or individual performance. You need time and discussion to understand the numbers. This is especially true for healing and dps. We don't even allow members to post meters during raids.

 

Meters do show things like interrupts, but so what? Being hammered by the skill that your guildy was supposed to interrupt also contains the same information. You assign people to perform certain duties and expect them to get it done. If you have 2 people interrupting then you expect them both to get their act together.

 

Meters are a tool used primarily by pugs and second tier raiding guilds that are trying to do their best with no real appreciation for how to accomplish it. They believe things can be fixed "on the fly" and once you overgear the raid, they are probably right. Once half the raid is overgeared and the other half is trying to get gear, those groups throw the numbers around like they mean more than they actually do. I have seen this over and over again in alt pug raids and when I raid with other guilds.

 

That said, you will get your way and this game will eventually have dps meters. They always do.

 

You're 100% correct. I've only ever been in second tier raiding guilds, and we heavily looked into meters (we never used World of Logs like the best guilds did). We always ran with good players-- not excellent or "the best," but good players with some room for improvement. Our recruiting was very relaxed, so we'd take our new members through raids and take a look at the meter results to see if they're using interrupts when they're told to, if they're breaking CC, and so on and so forth. We NEVER used it to say "Well, the mage is beating the feral druid so it's time to kick the druid," BUT if 99% of the feral's damage is coming from an ability they're not even supposed to use in their rotation, it's safe to assume they need improvement.

 

I think it's fair to say that the upper tier raiding guilds comprise of a slim minority of players, so damage meters would be appreciated by the majority of players.

[GengisKahn]

You are all over the place with this post.

 

First, progression guilds don't rely on meters or, even, try to evaluate those issues during the raid. We post logs and analyze the logs between lockouts. That's the only way to evaluate performance as a raid or individual performance. You need time and discussion to understand the numbers. This is especially true for healing and dps. We don't even allow members to post meters during raids.

 

Meters do show things like interrupts, but so what? Being hammered by the skill that your guildy was supposed to interrupt also contains the same information. You assign people to perform certain duties and expect them to get it done. If you have 2 people interrupting then you expect them both to get their act together.

 

Meters are a tool used primarily by pugs and second tier raiding guilds that are trying to do their best with no real appreciation for how to accomplish it. They believe things can be fixed "on the fly" and once you overgear the raid, they are probably right. Once half the raid is overgeared and the other half is trying to get gear, those groups throw the numbers around like they mean more than they actually do. I have seen this over and over again in alt pug raids and when I raid with other guilds.

 

That said, you will get your way and this game will eventually have dps meters. They always do.

 

 

Thats what guilds do in wow today... back in the time there were no upload of logs and meters were the way.

 

Anyway, the upload of logs is an improved way to look at the meter, and pages like world of logs are improved meters, improved ways to parse the log and measure everything that happened in the fight.

 

Live meters like recount are used to improve rotations and such by good players.

 

By using world of logs you ARE USING METERS, so no, they are not used only by pugs or second tier raiding guilds.

 

Bad players will always be there, but developing thinking in what bad players will do with your tool is the worst developement strategy i have ever heard of.

 

Again, dps meters existe SINCE VANILLA IN WOW. Worse, in vanilla they showed a lot less usefull information.

 

Dps meters dont destroy neither a game nor a community, and that's a FACT.

 

I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but you are wrong. I dont know for how long you played wow, but i can assure you dps meters had nothing to do with the community being complete idiots nowadays.

[lrage]

I have lots of MMO experience. From EQ-beta through pretty much everything till SWTOR. And of course WoW.

 

In WoW I was in everything from a server leading progression guild (which is very different then a world class progression guild). To a very casual guild that did light raiding, but spent most of my time in middle of the pack (Server Top15-20ish) progression guilds.

 

In those guilds my personal experience is the ones looking at logs, that parse their logs, that upload their logs, that discuss, are the good players, not the bad ones. In a typical progression guild there is a mix of really great players and average players with a few pretty bad players that typical aren't bought on progression encounters but rotated in once things go to farm status just ahead of alts. Content at different times was hard. T11 was much harder then most of WotLK. It just was. I don't think it was Ninja Gaiden for the 360 hard, but it was more a challenge.

 

Because of the increased challenge, people that had facerolled through content for the previous two years were hit with a slap of hurt. They thought they were just fine. But they weren't. A lot of the fights had just enough wiggle room to get through them with the items you were able to acquire before beating them. Logs allowed us to address the facerolling. Unless you're just in a horrible guild, oddities in an encounter are noted. My dps might drop one encounter if I'm on add duty. It also might be up because of that. Or if I'm required to kite around a nasty add. Whatever. But ignoring those specifics we were able to approach people and say, "look, your dps is very far behind the other dps in raid, and based on global parsings we know for your gear level and class/spec you should be doing more". And in some cases their DPS improved, in other cases it didn't and they were no longer bought along.

 

The world class guilds are a little different. Anyone that's just average isn't getting into their guild. They're able to be very picky about who they take. But for the rest of us, and that's the most of us, in challenging progression content logs/meters are almost required. Or the content can just be easy and no one cases, or zergable (EQ days were zerg fests in progression raiding for a lot of it). And I don't want easy or zergable content. I want hard content and parsings so we can improve since I don't plan to be in a world class guild full of nothing but the best of the best.

[Zothlar]

I will make this as simple as I possibly can. Some people enjoy playing the game competitively and want to optimize their performance in every way possible. Some people enjoy playing the game without searching for the best spec and the optimal rotation.

 

Including a dps meter allows the competitive people the use of a tool which enhances their particular enjoyment of the game with NO CONSEQUENCE to other players. And please, before anyone else types any more garbage about the "negative impact" dps meters have, or how they "ruin the community" think about this without emotion for a moment.

 

Nobody is seeking players out, inviting them to group to test their dps and then calling them bad. If you have been treated badly by someone "because of the dps meter" you have brought it on yourself in two ways. 1) you joined a group that was motivated by performance and 2) you failed to perform well. I really don't care how bad your spec, your rotation, or your play is until you join a raid with me and waste everyone else's time. It is extremely self-centered to believe that in a group situation you should be able to play however you want for your own fun even at the expense of everyone else. This sense of entitlement is what ruins communities, not dps meters.

 

Dps meters don't "force" you to spec or play any certain way. Choosing to join a group that cares about success is what forces players to choose optimal specs and rotations. The meter is nothing but a tool used by these players who are trying to optimize.

People spend a great deal of time and energy to learn how to get the most out of their characters. If you don't want to spend the same effort that is fine, it's not required. But you shouldn't join a group of people who do that for their fun. If you want to group with people you should either find a group of like-minded individuals or form your own raid where you get to establish the norms.

 

To sum up, the pro-meter people want a tool available for people that use it, and are fine with it being ignored by people who don't find that playstyle fun. To each his own.

 

The anti-meter people don't want the tool and therefore don't want it available to anyone. They apparently believe everyone should play their way.

 

Finally, yes some people will be jerks if we add a dps meter. They will be jerks if we don't add a meter. Because they are just jerks.

[Melchiora]

I think there seems to be some disagreement about what is meant by various terms.

 

What I personally want: A combat log, that can be analyzed to pull out damage numbers and timestamps, so that I can look at and measure my own output. A damage meter.

 

Now, some of the disagreement seems to be about the format.

 

If we have a combat log that can be saved, it can then be analyzed later (either by a website, or program on computer, or heck, by hand, but we'd have the information the server does).

 

This can be implemented either with, or without, a way to actively analyze the data in game (depending on what restrictions are placed on methods to alter the UI, etc.).

 

"Damage meter" does not necessarily mean a mod that lets people post the last fight's numbers to chat after each boss. If I had one, I'd use it to view my own numbers, and determine if I seemed particularly low compared to others, or how much I expected myself to be putting out. If I only had a combat log and external parser, I could use that too, just not as conveniently.

 

As it stands, I have no easy way to see if I'm missing something. Boss is dying slowly. Is my damage low? Is my brother's? I see my numbers on the screen, but without fraps and a stopwatch I can't easily convert (ok, there's probably some way to intercept the data, but that's beyond my area of experience). I definitely can't see how anyone else is doing. Maybe there's another sniper who's doing twice as much damage as I am. Maybe I completely overlooked an ability, which when energy cost, cast time, etc. is all factored in, is great to use whenever possible. Maybe I'm using an ability I shouldn't which is actually leaving me more energy starved than I ought to be.

 

I have had times in other games where my damage was about 70% of what it should have been, because I was ignoring an ability that I thought was only worthwhile for aoe (turns out it was awesome for single target, in large part because of synergy with another ability that was not obvious at first glance). Yes, I could look up "proper sniper priority list," but I prefer to work on it myself, UNTIL there's an issue with my output. This means I need to be able to know when I'm having an issue with output.

 

The tools do not need to have in game spam capability. I'm sure some people would prefer in game access, but many would be glad to just have external access to a combat log, or even just the log where we could then manually write down the info and type it in externally.

[RiskyBiz]

If you have been treated badly by someone "because of the dps meter" you have brought it on yourself in two ways. 1) you joined a group that was motivated by performance and 2) you failed to perform well. .

 

Harsh, but true.

[Keeneyes]

First, progression guilds don't rely on meters or, even, try to evaluate those issues during the raid. We post logs and analyze the logs between lockouts. That's the only way to evaluate performance as a raid or individual performance. You need time and discussion to understand the numbers. This is especially true for healing and dps. We don't even allow members to post meters during raids.

 

YMMV, but my progression guild uses combat logs as a TOOL. Because we understand the context of their usefulness, they help us to identify problem areas and fix them when things go wrong. Our raiders don't use them for bragging rights or ignore raid mechanics just to push their numbers higher. Everyone does their job and everyone is mature about it. As such, I find it tedious when people try to lump everyone together and act like their own poor experience is representative of the whole player base. Some guilds and raids use them the right way for the right reasons. For those who have had negative experiences with them, I'm sorry that's the case, but maybe you've either been in the wrong guild or raid or else you have unrealistic expectations of being able to hammer keys with oven mitts and expect everyone to applaud your skills as a gaming samurai.

 

Regardless, even the context of number parsing Thankyjack is beyond the realm of possibility because there's no log of any kind.

[RagingSage]

If we only had personal dps meters, I'd be absolutely fine with that. I only want a dps meter to gauge my own performance, not others.

 

But it is absolutely necessary, and I really hope this is something that comes in quickly. For people like myself, this is a priority. I want to be able to gauge what works, and what doesn't, and improve myself. That's important to me.

 

Please implement asap, bioware. Thanks.

[Thelgow]

Like wise. As a sniper I'm still debating whether to laze, sniper then ambush, or laze, ambush, then snipe. etc.

And without having any actual proof, I have no idea whats going on.

Warzones can count your damage so its obviously in the game behind the scenes.

Let us see it when we want to.

[Novastinger]

This game needs combat logging ASAP. It's ridiculous to run operations without one, as it stands when things aren't going well, people just start throwing blame around with nothing to back it up. It's all based on hunches or who's friends with who and what not. Especially considering how much they love enrage mechanics.

 

They're probably afraid that it'll give objective analysis between the various dps classes, which will causing more whining. Either that or it just hasn't been completed to satisfaction from the development perspective.

[JackkSparrow]

lol they were supposed to have that implemented already *** 7 years of construction and no combat log?

[Nikolu]

If a combat log is implemented a damage meter will be made, even if its 3rd party and out of game, and you have to tab out to check it or play in window mode, it will happen. People saying they support a combat log but not a damage meter aren't really following the evolution of the idea. Its going to happen.

[Zaxaras]

I like to know if I'm doing something wrong, then I can improve myself by fixing it. Dps meters will allow me to do that, as well as (hopefully) compare myself to others using the equivalent of worldoflogs. Bring them on.

[Rhavim]

I personally hope they never release DPS parsing info. It changes the focus from the story/fun to a numbers game and arguments that someone was 12 dps under where they need to be. One of the reasons I stopped playing that other MMO. stay raw...i am sure I will lose this one

 

 

 

the real problem comes when you are trying your hardest to beat a boss that has an enrage timer, you use stims, adrenals, you perfect your rotation, you optimize your gear and spec the best way possible and do major research on forums and whatnot, still dont defeat the boss and the group just keeps failing, later the group decides you must be the problem because the other dps is wearing purples (pvp purples) and you are wearing moddable gear (with pve purple mods) and they boot you.

 

later you discover the other dps was a jedi sentinel that just threw 20 points in each tree because he felt they were cool and all he did was smash his focus gaining ability and one focus dump ability, has no idea what a rotation is and said he doesnt need one because he rocks in pvp, apperantly. he also doesnt know what an adrenal is or does.

 

 

 

true story.

[Menisong]

I suspect we won't see a combat log in this game for a very very long time. I think Bioware is using the lack of a player combat log to mask how poorly balanced the classes are, that they were not properly balanced before launch.

 

I think when we start seeing massive talent, ability changes in the patches we may be getting closer.

[Hxxr]

Still, why do the equivalent of giving an idiot a gun?

 

Why forbid guns just because there are idiots out there that might or might not get a hold of one?

 

Best case scenario the idiots will shoot eachother and everybody wins.

Worst case there'd be some collateral damage.

 

Btw, since when is 'gun' an acceptable metaphor for 'metric game analysis'?

 

It's a game. There are people who find numbers very entertaining, so why not supply them with the means?

[Thankyjack]

To sum up, the pro-meter people want a tool available for people that use it, and are fine with it being ignored by people who don't find that playstyle fun. To each his own.

 

The anti-meter people don't want the tool and therefore don't want it available to anyone. They apparently believe everyone should play their way.

 

Finally, yes some people will be jerks if we add a dps meter. They will be jerks if we don't add a meter. Because they are just jerks.

 

Pro-meter people are fine with it because many of them will absolutely use the dps meters "for" other players, whether we want them to or not.

 

Here is a fair compromise, because meters can be fun if used properly: we have meters, but no way to publish or broadcast the results to others. That way, pro-meter people can use the results to improve their play, but cannot use them to grief others.

[darkonnis]

A happy compromise would be to have meters only show what damage/healing you do.

I'd love to know how i do, i dont care at all about you and your self conscious self. Oh noes you may actually have to take your role as DPS properly, who'd have thunk it. Personally i'd love to see what talents are good, what aren't whats worth having. What isnt. It becomes obvious after 2 raids if someones DPS is ****, because mind traps dont break, jarg and sorno dont have equal health when you take them down. One of the DPS dies and all of a sudden the boss's %% hp doesnt seem to move. For casual players im sure this is fine, but i have spent the last 3 weeks bored doing EV (soa HM) because people cant get it right or do enough DPS. If a meter means i'll be able to not waste my time, i'll gladly take it.

[Drakinor]

i just wanted to know if anyone knows if we will ever have some type of dps meter, like how r u supposed to know if ur doing good in a flashpoint without knowing the numbers. I know swtor doesnt have any addon options yet or will ever have it, but does any1 know if a dps meter will ever be implemented

 

checklist for knowing your doing it right

 

1. as dps your hitting the SAME target as tank

2. said target is focusing on tank and not you

3. targets health bar is decreasing at a decent pace

4. no ones yelling at you for being an idiot and pulling

5. you let the TANK do the initial pull, unless other wise asked

6. you focus on burning down the correct targets and not concern yourself with whether or not your the best dps on the team. Its a TEAM not a competition

7. you understand that meters only make people competitive in the team which causes stupid mistakes like extra pulls, over use of AOE, getting initial hits as dps, "alpha strike" mentality and blaming healer for you dying etc.

8. bosses arent wasting the tank because healer ran out of resources to heal with (if this happens either 1. tanks dam reduction is too low, 2. healers resources are too low, or 3. lo and behold your dps is too low, not always tank and healers fault)

 

simple right? Common sense is your friend lol

[JLapp]

1. as dps your hitting the SAME target as tank

 

What? If there are multiple targets (specifically weak ones) I am specifically going to be targeting the one the tank isn't.

 

2. said target is focusing on tank and not you

 

Sounds like the tank who isn't doing it right.

 

3. targets health bar is decreasing at a decent pace

 

How do I know what a decent pace is? How do I know if it is me or the other DPS that isn't doing it "at a decent pace"?

 

4. no ones yelling at you for being an idiot and pulling

 

I don't have all day! Lets hurry this **** up.

 

5. you let the TANK do the initial pull, unless other wise asked

 

See 4.

 

6. you focus on burning down the correct targets and not concern yourself with whether or not your the best dps on the team. Its a TEAM not a competition

 

Most teams seek to get better.

 

7. you understand that meters only make people competitive in the team which causes stupid mistakes like extra pulls, over use of AOE, getting initial hits as dps, "alpha strike" mentality and blaming healer for you dying etc.

 

jack-holes are going to be jack-holes with or without meters. Terrible use of "only"...lots of people have very legitimate uses for them.

 

8. bosses aren't wasting the tank because healer ran out of resources to heal with (if this happens either 1. tanks dam reduction is too low, 2. healers resources are too low, or 3. lo and behold your dps is too low, not always tank and healers fault)

 

MY DPS?!?!?!? what about the other dps in my group?

 

 

Also how am I going to make fun of the other people in my group for having less gear than me without numbers to back it up!

[Zothlar]

Pro-meter people are fine with it because many of them will absolutely use the dps meters "for" other players, whether we want them to or not.

 

Here is a fair compromise, because meters can be fun if used properly: we have meters, but no way to publish or broadcast the results to others. That way, pro-meter people can use the results to improve their play, but cannot use them to grief others.

 

Over the course of these threads I have gotten really, really tired of the claim that players with meters "grief" people. It is a lie told from a ridiculously self-centered perspective. If people are forming a raid with the expectation of success, then joining that group brings the responsibility of performing well. This means proper spec, appropriate gear, and a competent understanding of class mechanics. If someone fails to bring those things and vastly underperforms then they are not a victim. They have put themselves in this position and are, in fact, having a negative effect on the fun of the people they are grouped with.

 

Yes, that person paid $15 to play how they want and shouldn't be told what is right or wrong. But the other 7 people have paid $105 and have a right to expect that everyone who has voluntarily grouped with them is going to help them have fun the way those 7 people want to play.

 

No one is telling you that you can't run a busted spec and make a raid full of people in RP slave outfits spamming nothing but force lighting all night long. If you and the people in your raid are having fun then by all means, do it that way every week.

 

But why do you feel like you have some sort of right to raid with anyone at anytime and not feel an obligation to help them have fun too? Why do you feel entitled to make everyone else accept your playstyle?

 

If I join the costume raid above and refuse to wear the gear that everyone is wearing and insist on using abilities other than force lightning then I'm forcing that group to accept my playstyle even though that's not why they are there. And after griefing them this way, when they kick me I'm self-centered enough to cry about "elitists" being mean? I asked for it by not being willing to help their group have fun their way.

 

If you join a performance raid and refuse to do what is accepted and understood to maximize performance then YOU are the problem. No one will try to tell you how to play until YOU put YOURSELF into positions where YOU have a responsibilty to more people's fun than just your own.

[FobManX]

I don't really get the people who are totally against meters. I understand you don't want people spamming them in parties as that can be obnoxious, but there shouldn't be any issue with at least knowing how much DPS YOU did. And once you start doing endgame, it's important to be able to play optimally. Yes I know there are a lot of bads who just want to play but many of us strive to play the best we can and are always trying to be better. Hard to do that without knowing just what we're putting out.

 

At the least they can make it so you can view total damage done at the end of a flashpoint, and then maybe set it up so you can divvy that up and look at damage done per boss attempt to get a clearer picture(total damage is bad because it overemphasizes trash/AOE situations).

[Forduc]

Over the course of these threads I have gotten really, really tired of the claim that players with meters "grief" people.

 

Not all, not most, but some. Granted, they'll probably be pain either way, but then they'll have someting to troll about even if things are going nicely.

 

And while things you said are important (to some people), dps meters aren't only or even good way to deal with those kind of questions/management.

Edited February 13, 2012 by Forduc

[Bionixx]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. The majority of the people who are against damage meters are the ones who do not perform well on them. And you have no right to object. Stop trying to hide your ineptitude and learn to play your class/spec. Let the actual good players have a tool to analyze performance.