SWTOR GSF Flight Stick Compatibility

[JimG]

This isn't a flight sim...it's an MMO with a space combat game component. I hope they add it for you, but I doubt you'll see it.

Exactly. It's not that they are against joysticks, but they don't want to set up a system where people in a F2P MMO have to buy a joystick to play a free mini-game space expansion. They are trying to make it accessible to more people, not less accessible. And, yes, people would basically have to buy one to stay competitive. If it didn't make flying a lot easier, then you guys wouldn't be asking for it.

[NalRethak]

Exactly. It's not that they are against joysticks, but they don't want to set up a system where people in a F2P MMO have to buy a joystick to play a free mini-game space expansion. They are trying to make it accessible to more people, not less accessible. And, yes, people would basically have to buy one to stay competitive. If it didn't make flying a lot easier, then you guys wouldn't be asking for it.

 

No need to buy it, it already works nice for many people around here.

'Stick is just here for the immersion.

 

If those, like me, asking for a 'stick would really ask for a Space Sim, we would be asking to remove the "aim" and "evade" stats that are link to weapons and ships. And it would only rely to anyone's skill to evade and shoot someone down... Not some stupid stat that makes you miss someone right in the middle of your reticle. Which is what the game is, right now.

 

So far, people are sitting ducks in space, not because they don't know how to fly or evade, but mainly because they didn't upgraded their ship enough to have enough evade bonuses and makes opponent miss.

 

So, right now, a Joystick wouldn't make it any easier to play. Or by a small margin, as they're so many things that are screwed in GSF, Radar being one of them also.

 

Still, I'm impressed by guys creating something from scratch, when all they had to do was burrowed XWing Alliance and melt it into SWTOR which would have been faster, funnier, and might as well as brought every Space Sim fanboys to the game, and actually pay for it, just to play that extension.

[TUXs]

And ive had to say that three or four times in every thread ive talked about this in and people like you keep going on and on about joysticks being outdated. So please if you don't know what youre talking about, ignore the need to voice opinion against an option we would like in the game.

This is where you get rude. I'm free to add my opinion just like you are. I'm no opposed to it, if it's easy, I hope they DO add it...but I haven't had any reason/need/desire to use a joystick since 1998. I see it as a waste of developer time IF it's a difficult thing to do. If it's so simple to add, offer to write the code for em and PM the Devs.

[-KeggER-]

Most games with flight offer the option to use a mouse/kb or flight stick as controls. The whole purpose to my OP was to ask if SWTOR could offer both as well. There is no need for someone to bash others if they didn't want the option. They simply use the control method they prefer.

 

I guess 10 yr olds never heard of a flight stick... Then again they don't have them in WoW

[Ramalina]

So you want it optimized for joystick? You realize there is no way to do that without giving joysticks a advantage over mousers which is NOT a good thing. I shouldn't have to buy a joystick to be competitive.

 

Besides do you not realize that joysticks are a dying hardware? Stores only stock one or two if they stock them at all, the 90s flight sims are gone.

 

Joysticks are doing quite well actually. They range from low end logitechs that are cheaper than a gaming mouse to the Thrustmaster Warthog where the stick and throttle combo will set you back $500 unless you can find it on sale somewhere. Some flight sim players will actually build their own by ordering the usb controller board and then wiring it up to custom built mil-spec or surplussed hardware. That's the slow way to do it though, unless you already know how to design usb peripherals and have a friend with a CNC milling machine.

 

I don't think anyone expects joystick optimization. The real issue is that the neutral control position is not self centering. That's really all joysticks do in terms of control difference versus what's in game already. If you stop active input, instead of the control position staying where you left it (as with mouse currently) it returns to a zero pitch, zero roll setting. They could do this with mouse/keyboard too if they wanted to, I've seen it done in other programs.

 

They already have analog pitch and yaw, an option for analog roll would be nice, but not strictly needed. The biggest issue is that for people that like combat flight sims a control stick is the normal and preferred means of input. Just as for MMO gamers ground movement is preferred to be mouse control, and abilities by user configurable hotkeys.

 

Galactic Starfighter is a combat flight sim if not a particularly good one by today's standards of realism (which isn't all bad, not having to worry about high AoA airflow departure can be nice, as is not having to read a 700 page manual to learn how to fly effectively). It was made, presumably, because there was a vocal community saying that they missed the 3D space combat play that was common in some earlier Star Wars game franchises. In terms of delivering that 3D space combat, Bioware has really exceeded expectations in almost every way. The only places it really falls short are in how the HUD displays info (slightly deficient) and in the control interface (significantly deficient).

 

So from the flight sim fan's perspective it's sort of like we expected them to build a Yugo missing two wheels, but instead they delivered a Porsche that has it's dashboard labeled in Cueniform, and has to be steered with a pair of oars. Make an option to replace the oars with a steering wheel and relabel the dash with Latin characters and we'll be VERY happy with the result.

 

It's not that you can't fly basic fighter maneuvers in GS, it's that if you're used to flying them with a stick flying them with a mouse, especially if the neutral position is not self centering, is a real pain in the ***.

 

Play balance wise I'm not sure how it would work out. Normally people who know the basics of air combat should rip people who don't know how to fly to shreds if they get to use their preferred control input devices. So the joystick is somewhat a confounded variable, because the people who have joysticks are going to largely be the people who are already good at 3D combat maneuvering. If they keep the funky target leading system in place though, that should be somewhat negated, because where you're flying and where you're shooting are not the same place.

 

Honestly even if they implemented stick support I think gunship play would still be primarily mouse based because that's heavily biased in favor of mouse pointing.

 

For strike fighters and scouts, as long as max control deflection (ie turn rate) is the same for both control systems I think that it would mostly be a matter of personal preference.

 

I like the gameplay, but I spend a lot of time thinking, "damn, pulling this maneuver is such a nuisance compared to <insert preferred sim with a normal stick interface>."

 

If stick support is implemented they should probably retain an option for non-centering mouse control, and for pitch-yaw as primary controls because although those are the aspects that really bug a lot of flight sim players, for FPS style players those may be the preferred control modes.

 

Edit: oh, and by the way, for those of you hopelessly out of date in regards to what flight sticks are like these days, USB plug and play is the de-facto standard. You can still find ones that require dedicated drivers and lots of fiddling with settings, but that's the exception now, not the rule.

Edited December 11, 2013 by Ramalina

[-KeggER-]

SWG JTL offered the option to use either m&kb or flight stick. That game had a great space community and neither option offered a benefit over the other. It was up to the player to choose. Ps. Players like options!

[Ramalina]

Perhaps the most relevant thing related to flight stick support:

 

As is, Galactic Starfighter is great as a Free to Play addition, but I wouldn't be willing to pay for it as a combat sim or as a SWTOR expansion.

It competes directly in my gaming budget with real flight simulators, and despite the general coolness of Star Wars the quality just isn't quite there.

 

Add flightstick support that allows a pitch-roll input style (ie, let me feel like I'm flying a fighter when I'm flying a fighter), and suddenly it's a strong competitor against DCS's upcoming F-15C module, which will probably be in the $15 - $25 range. There are other bits that could be improved, but the control system is what relegates it to the, "as long as it's free," category for me. With a fixed control system, I'd consider it worthwhile as a standalone paid game.

 

Do enough people agree with me to make it worth Bioware's time to change it? No idea, but I would buy CC's to unlock joystick support if it existed (though that would be an exceptionally bizarre development choice).

 

If you're trying to attract paying customers with a 3D space combat sim portion of the game, it doesn't make an awful lot of sense to me to do it with a control interface that many of those potential customers would consider broken, especially since there are competitors for that sort of gameplay, even if the field isn't as large as it used to be.

[Hambunctious]

If you're trying to attract paying customers with a 3D space combat sim portion of the game, it doesn't make an awful lot of sense to me to do it with a control interface that many of those potential customers would consider broken, especially since there are competitors for that sort of gameplay, even if the field isn't as large as it used to be.

 

That's where they messed up, and it's nowhere close to what most people were asking to get in the old space combat threads.

 

I've given it more than a week, including beta time, and it's not something that suits me. Everyone else I know isn't interested in it either.

 

All I asked to have was some XvT type maps for pvp dogfighting, but the control system, and mechanics ruin the experience. Not that I was bad at it, but I wasn't having fun.

[ArchangelLBC]

I have never been more disappointed with TUXs and Zoom_VI than I am in this thread. Shame on them both. You both deserve to go to the special hell reserved for gunship users and people who talk in the theater.

 

/signed. I'd love a reason to break out the old Joystick again. I miss the old combat space sims.

[septicbrainfluid]

/signed. Im having fun with GSF but definetly want joystick/gamepad support. All the reasons posted against JS support are lame. The worst one is that joystics/gamepads would be overpowered. You can suck just as bad with a gamepad/JS as you can with a keyboard and mouse. It all depends on what you are used to gaming with. I used to be able to do First Person Shooters with a gamepad and kick *** back when i owned a console years ago, now i completely suck at it. I lost that SKILL.

[Arkerus]

That's where they messed up, and it's nowhere close to what most people were asking to get in the old space combat threads.

 

I've given it more than a week, including beta time, and it's not something that suits me. Everyone else I know isn't interested in it either.

 

All I asked to have was some XvT type maps for pvp dogfighting, but the control system, and mechanics ruin the experience. Not that I was bad at it, but I wasn't having fun.

 

Too bad? This is certainly not a flight sim like the x wing and tie fighter games. Its more of an arcade space battle. Fast paced. Lots of customization with some moves actually relegated to hot keys.

 

I especially like your jab that you weren't bad at it but you weren't having fun. We don't need to know if you were bad at it or not but saying so makes it sound like you simply were bad it. Now you are looking for excuses.

 

If you don't like it there is a very simple suggestion...don't play it. The current control scheme doesn't work for a flight stick.

 

And btw, I played the old x wing and tie games. They were so slooooooow compared to GSF. All people did was take quad pot shots at each other for a half hour. They were not that great and very boring to watch nowadays.

Edited December 11, 2013 by Arkerus

[Mallorik]

.

 

I especially like your jab that you weren't bad at it but you weren't having fun. We don't need to know if you were bad at it or not but saying so makes it sound like you simply were bad it. Now you are looking for excuses. .

 

Im pretty sure he did that because of the morons that keep telling people who would like to see js support to learn to play. When in reality people who like flight games and play with joysticks can play with the mouse just fine, we just don't like it.

[fungihoujo]

Amazing how angry some people can get at the mere suggestion of other players getting a control scheme they prefer.

 

Yeah, how dare some players prefer controller over kb/mouse. Clearly the best solution is to alienate half the playerbase by ignoring what they want.

 

What Biofail does best.

[Hambunctious]

Amazing how angry some people can get at the mere suggestion of other players getting a control scheme they prefer.

 

Yeah, how dare some players prefer controller over kb/mouse. Clearly the best solution is to alienate half the playerbase by ignoring what they want.

 

What Biofail does best.

 

That's one thing I do not understand. There are people against options. Would they have the same opinion if the shoe was on the other foot? If this was flight stick/controller only content, would they be shouting for mouse/kb controls? You bet they would, and I'd be 100% on their side to see that they were included.

[Dhuell]

I was at the Austin Community Cantina and asked this exact question. The lead developer of GSF said this. They designed the expansion with the a mindset that it had to be KB/mouse only for several reasons. First is they know everyone has a KB/M. They didn't want to make GSF a game that requires you to use a gamepad or controller or give an advantage to one group. Most of his answer was based around this idea.

 

I then was able to talk to him for about 10 minutes and by the way he is awesome and incredibly excited about what they created. I asked him about PVE and he said initially they worked on it but realized that the can of worms it opened at the time would lead to an even longer dev time. They decided to focus on PVP but hinted that PVR is a possibility.

 

He meantioned many times that these features will all be based on the popularity of GSF. If PVP shows a ton of interest,and activity then maybe we can get some PVE. The controller support will all be based around popularity and demand for the feature. He said I should start a forum post about it as he doesn't recall seeing many on the topic. I guess this is the first and we can see what kind of support we can get from the community. Even still I wouldnt expect anything for 6-9 months.

 

I hope BW knows the KB/M and JS communities can co-exist, I flew with guys in SWG-JTL that used KB/M and did very good, I personally like using a JS, it is just preference. I don't think you are necessarily giving an advantage to one group over the other.

[Foambreaker]

Amazing how angry some people can get at the mere suggestion of other players getting a control scheme they prefer.

 

Yeah, how dare some players prefer controller over kb/mouse. Clearly the best solution is to alienate half the playerbase by ignoring what they want.

 

What Biofail does best.

 

A lot of these people have to be "right", if anyone doesn't agree with them they take an ego hit, the topic doesn't matter, so they have to keep arguing the point even if both sides can have their pie, because it is a matter of pride.

[Tellenn]

I especially like your jab that you weren't bad at it but you weren't having fun. We don't need to know if you were bad at it or not but saying so makes it sound like you simply were bad it. Now you are looking for excuses.

 

He did that so morons wouldn't claim any negative feedback is a l2p issue.

 

he underestimated you.

[rbl_holmes]

The word joystick is just semantics. Controller support is what we're all asking for, with controller support basically any controller that can be hooked up to a PC can work. Everyone I know that plays games has at least a game pad, or joystick, xbox controller etc. laying around.

 

Controllers certainly aren't a niche as every console game has them. If they are collecting dust on PC games it's because game devs aren't taking the time to implement controller support in a game that has a high appeal to play with a controller.

 

/shrug

Edited December 11, 2013 by rbl_holmes

[Ridickilis]

Why does every time this discussion comes up it needs to get hostile? I still haven't heard a legitimate reason why JS can't co-exist with the KB/mouse.

 

Let's look at some of the reasons. I'd say the number one reason is "I don't want to buy new hardware just for this".

Looking at this for a moment, players will spend hundreds of dollars on a razor mouse and gaming keyboard but won't spend 20 dollars on a controller? This makes no sense to me. I can understand the point "I'll never use it for anything else whereas I'm an mmo player and will get my money's worth out of my KB/mouse". Okay fair enough but that brings me to point B then.

 

The unfair advantage. Let's assume there is an advantage using a controller over mouse/kb. At the same time you're perfectly content having an unfair advantage with your gaming mouse and KB over most of us who just use the standard 3 button mouse and keyboard on the ground. I would even agree that, just on the surface by the economical way the gaming equipment is set up, is more efficient than standard equipment. However you'd never hear someone say I got wrecked by a gaming keyboard and mouse user. You'd all say it's a L2P/keybind issue. So I would agree that a controller would make it easier (or make an already good player better) because of the ergonomic placement of all your abilities centered on the controller rather than having to use both the keyboard and mouse.

 

The last one, the weakest of them all, "it won't work, you'll suck and I'll pwn you on your controller". This is flat out untrue. The left stick would be bound the same way the mouse works now, the right stick would take WASD on up, left, down and right respectively. Then you can depress both of those sticks for two more buttons (Like for E and R) and you're still left with 8 more buttons (4 on the right and 4 on the shoulders) for your missiles, guns, boosters and the 4 ship abilities. The only things you'd have left are F1-F4, which can just stay where they are if I were using a controller.

 

The lamest of them all, calling it old 90's technology. Well that is true, but before that you gamed on a pc with what again? Oh yeah a keyboard and mouse. I don't know about you but I didn't have a joystick for silent hunter on my old Apple IIGS, I used the same type of hardware that I'm using now in 2013, a keyboard and mouse.

 

I will say, the biggest advantage using a controller over the mouse would be the 'snap-back' position on the sticks. The mouse doesn't have a snap back when you make a banking turn, the controller would. Much like driving a car, when you make a left you don't have to turn the wheel back to the right to straighten out. You just let go of the wheel and it 'snaps-back' into the center position. With the mouse I have to turn back a little to the right to 'straighten out'. Is it a huge advantage, probably not, but it is an advantage.

 

So all in all yes I do feel a controller is a bit of an advantage but not so significant or more noticeable than a razor/gaming keyboard set up would be vs someone like me without that hardware. Again if your response to that is "this is an mmo, we're mmo players and we have hardware specifically for mmo's"...well I don't have a counter point for that.

[Arkerus]

I hope BW knows the KB/M and JS communities can co-exist, I flew with guys in SWG-JTL that used KB/M and did very good, I personally like using a JS, it is just preference. I don't think you are necessarily giving an advantage to one group over the other.

 

They coexisted in a game that died and overall wasn't very good.

 

There are significant design reasons for the current control scheme. The entire UI and aiming system would have to be reworked for joystick. If Bioware wants to do it, fine. Don't count on it.

[septicbrainfluid]

They coexisted in a game that died and overall wasn't very good.

Supposedly it died when they released a major patch that dumbed the game down drastically to make it a wow clone. It had nothing to do with the space flight expansion.

 

There are significant design reasons for the current control scheme. The entire UI and aiming system would have to be reworked for joystick. If Bioware wants to do it, fine. Don't count on it.

This argument has been shot down numerous times all ready. The short version is that at a minimum (apart from all the back-end coding for controller support,obviously) all they need to do is add a lock mouse pointer at center toggle. Yes it would be harder for controller users to stay on target, but its something se are used to in other games and why should KB/mouse fanboys care if a using a controller is harder.

 

Edit: actualy at minimum they dont hsve to touch the ui. Your controller would just take over the action of the mouse targeting. it would suck IMO but I could get used to it; not much different than using a controller to target in an FPS.

Edited December 11, 2013 by septicbrainfluid
another thought

[Traesk]

Supposedly it died when they released a major patch that dumbed the game down drastically to make it a wow clone. It had nothing to do with the space flight expansion.

 

This argument has been shot down numerous times all ready. The short version is that at a minimum (apart from all the back-end coding for controller support,obviously) all they need to do is add a lock mouse pointer at center toggle. Yes it would be harder for controller users to stay on target, but its something se are used to in other games and why should KB/mouse fanboys care if a using a controller is harder.

 

Edit: actualy at minimum they dont hsve to touch the ui. Your controller would just take over the action of the mouse targeting. it would suck IMO but I could get used to it; not much different than using a controller to target in an FPS.

 

I agree with all of this.

 

Galaxies died not because of the space combat but because of the dumbing down of the game. It was stupid to do.

 

Locking the target reticule to the center of the screen would be very helpful. You can make it optional if you like.

[CKHelseth]

I remember in one of the catina recordings they said they wanted keyboard and mouse controls to be the focus until they were as good as they possibly could be, then and only then, consider adding joystick support.

[Gavin_Kelvar]

target reticule to the center of the screen would be very helpful. You can make it optional if you like.

 

personally I think this might make some turning dogfights easier. I've noticed that in a tight turn dogfight sometimes I get stuck having to keep my crosshairs at the edge of the arc in order to keep on the lead indicator and suffer the accuracy penalty. In theory locked center I'd be able to pull a tighter turn to get the lead indicator center for maximum accuracy. I'd gladly trade being able track my target for a locked center crosshair with stick support (assuming they did a good job on the controls).

[Verain]

I think what I want, after having played a bit, is a flightstick that instantly controls my craft, with a little ****** at the top that handles the aiming reticule. That would be perfect, and I'm pretty sure such devices exist already.