Hardmode queue time!

[DarthTHC]

Sometimes you really get these tanks who stop before every trash mob for a minute, offer a carefully detailed tactical analysis of the situation and mob composition, meticulously mark every single mob for CC (even ones that die just by looking at them), predetermine a kill order and dutifully trigger a ready check to make sure that the pull does not happen unexpectedly.

 

A few times I've seen tanks do exactly this. I can understand if they want to stop to allow some vital skills to come off cooldown but some tanks really take this to extreme levels of preparation for a 3-second fight.

 

I've been playing this game well nigh 2 years and never have I seen a tank go that slow.

 

Yes, it's annoying when they let your cooldowns drop off. If they do this when everyone is ready and full on energy/focus, then education is a far better approach than "GO!".

[Hassat-Hunter]

I usually can get the CZ weekly done by GF (this is as DPS). Maybe server.

Not by choosing random match though, random *always* gives Athiss somehow... has been for months. Maybe most people log only for that due to it's ease? But I also got it doing random with a guild, and with a random healer and tank found in general on fleet.

 

Here's my horror story of this very last week, new alts. Friend as DPS Guardian, me as healer Smuggler. Logged for Hammer station. Lvl 16 tank. Ok, all fine...

You know, he does take a huge amount of healing needed for a tank? Let's see... *inspects gear* lvl 9 all green gear. Even the 2 DPS could take more punishment. He left of his own, then (quickly I might add) we got a 21 tank that just plummeted through all of it.

Though of course I have no idea if our original 'tank' was really one or just badly chosen a role.

[Ottoattack]

This is the worst idea ever. This increases the likelihood of getting a bad DPS in your group by 50%.

 

Since bad DPS are the primary reason for tanks not doing flash points (please read this thread!), this is exactly the opposite of what we want to do to get more groups to happen.

 

It would be better to tune them to 1 tank, 1 heals, and 1 DPS. At least then you're cutting your chances of getting a bad DPS in half.

 

Also, it is not an easy solution. They would have to tune every fight in every flash point. That's a lot of hours that could be spent creating new flashpoints doing nothing of value in the old ones. I prefer new content, please.

 

DPS can either figure out how not to suck or roll tanks... which would actually help them figure out how not to suck.

 

/rant

 

Fyi, I have done at least couple of hundred flash points, and played all three roles, and the primary reason for wipes in order of them occuring:

 

1- Lack of knowledge of mechanics.

2- Healer sucking.

3- Tank sucking.

4- Dps sucking.

5- Enrage timers.

 

See, no matter how bad the dps are, as long as they do not pull a second group, which happens maybe once every 50 FPs, all what matters is the tank and the healer. Healer and tank are geared and know what they are doing, the odds of anyone dying is slim to none, even if the dps completely suck. The other way around you will see so many wipes. Any argument that claims adding more dps will cause more wipes in FPs is completely false and has no basis.

 

Trivia, most pulls, aside from bosses do not even need a tank. My PvP geared toon can kill at least one elite, 2-3 strongs and 5-6 regular mobs, without getting one heal and that's typically half of most trash mob pulls.

Edited December 11, 2013 by Ottoattack

[DarthTHC]

Fyi, I have done at least couple of hundred flash points, and played all three roles, and the primary reason for wipes:

 

1- Lack of knowledge of mechanics.

2- Healer sucking.

3- Tank sucking.

4- Dps sucking.

5- Enrage timers.

 

See, no matter how bad the dps are, as long as they do not pull a second group, which happens maybe once every 50 FPs, all what matters is the tank and the healer. Healer and tank are geared and know what they are doing, the odds of anyone dying is slim to none, even if the dps completely suck. The other way around you will see so many wipes. Any argument that claims adding more dps will cause more wipes in FPs is completely false and has no basis.

 

I never said adding more DPS would cause more wipes. I said adding more DPS increases the chances of getting a DPS that sucks.

 

There are problems in flash points aside from wipes. Problems that we tanks (and healers) don't want to deal with. Social problems. Behavior problems. Problems that make things a lot harder on us than they have to be.

 

Carrying DPS that don't contribute is bad, and that happens a lot. But far worse is recovering from DPS who do something really stupid, over and over and over again. Putting up with insults and complaints from DPS when you tell them to stop doing that stupid stuff.

 

Yes, a competent tank plus a competent healer can overcome a lot of badness in DPS by putting in a lot of extra effort, paying extra special attention, and generally being better. But should they have to?

 

This whole thread is about getting Group Finder groups to pop quicker. The belief seems to be they are slow because tanks do not want to queue. The feedback in this thread from tanks is that they do not want to queue because there are too many bad DPS out there making our experience in flashpoints downright suck. That is the problem that needs to be fixed.

 

If we're going to count "we didn't wipe" as an incredibly fun success, we can achieve that with just a competent tank and healer plus one companion each. We don't need DPS. But that's not going to solve the long queue time problem, is it?

 

(And yes, we could do that pretty easily. Tank + Healer can Group-Finder queue together, each initiates a vote kick on one DPS upon arrival, and pull out companions. I do not want to do that. I want to run flash points with geared, competent, friendly [or at least silent] players.)

Edited December 11, 2013 by DarthTHC

[Ottoattack]

I never said adding more DPS would cause more wipes. I said adding more DPS increases the chances of getting a DPS that sucks.

 

There are problems in flash points aside from wipes. Problems that we tanks (and healers) don't want to deal with. Social problems. Behavior problems. Problems that make things a lot harder on us than they have to be.

 

Carrying DPS that don't contribute is bad, and that happens a lot. But far worse is recovering from DPS who do something really stupid, over and over and over again. Putting up with insults and complaints from DPS when you tell them to stop doing that stupid stuff.

 

Yes, a competent tank plus a competent healer can overcome a lot of badness in DPS by putting in a lot of extra effort, paying extra special attention, and generally being better. But should they have to?

 

This whole thread is about getting Group Finder groups to pop quicker. The belief seems to be they are slow because tanks do not want to queue. The feedback in this thread from tanks is that they do not want to queue because there are too many bad DPS out there making our experience in flashpoints downright suck. That is the problem that needs to be fixed.

 

If we're going to count "we didn't wipe" as an incredibly fun success, we can achieve that with just a competent tank and healer plus one companion each. We don't need DPS. But that's not going to solve the long queue time problem, is it?

 

I agree with you that success or fun is not measured by "the count of wipes." However, the primary reason ques for dps takes too long is not because tank and healers preference not que solo que in GF, it is because the slots allocated to dps in GF; 2 out of 4 (50%), is far below the actual average of people playing dps which is close to 70% to 80%, hence the long ques.

 

I prefer to play with guildies or competent people all the time, but if they are not available I do que solo. However, when I am queing as dps it takes 30 minutes plus, thus outside of one of my guildies rolling a tank, I won't que. It just take insane amount of time to get a pop.

 

This is an inherent problem in design. The 1:1:2 format is fail and need to be expanded to 1:1:3 or 1:1:4 to accommodate the number of dps queing.

[DarthTHC]

I agree with you that success or fun is not measured by "the count of wipes." However, the primary reason ques for dps takes too long is not because tank and healers preference not que solo que in GF, it is because the slots allocated to dps in GF; 2 out of 4 (50%), is far below the actual average of people playing dps which is close to 70% to 80%, hence the long ques.

 

I prefer to play with guildies or competent people all the time, but if they are not available I do que solo. However, when I am queing as dps it takes 30 minutes plus, thus outside of one of my guildies rolling a tank, I won't que. It just take insane amount of time to get a pop.

 

This is an inherent problem in design. The 1:1:2 format is fail and need to be expanded to 1:1:3 or 1:1:4 to accommodate the number of dps queing.

 

You're looking at it entirely wrongly then. Expanding to 1:1:3 increases by 50% the reason tanks say they won't queue. Expanding to 1:1:4 doubles it.

 

As I've said before, and others have echoed it: If I could be assured that I would get a properly geared, properly specced, competent team every single time, I would chain-q for the duration of my gaming time.

Edited December 11, 2013 by DarthTHC

[Qaeta]

You're looking at it entirely wrongly then. Expanding to 1:1:3 increases by 50% the reason tanks say they won't queue. Expanding to 1:1:4 doubles it.

 

As I've said before, and others have echoed it: If I could be assured that I would get a properly geared, properly specced, competent team every single time, I would chain-q for the duration of my gaming time.

 

I think you are missing the point. Having more DPS means one individual DPS sucking won't matter as much, making the overall experience smoother.

 

EDIT: woops, didn't notice this was an old thread... stupid google.

Edited October 3, 2014 by Qaeta
necro

[Tremz]

I personal think if it really bothers you maybe you should join a guild that runs in guild stuff. If you don't like the dps wait make a tank or healer and que and just send the gear you want for your dps. The biggest thing is get used to it not many wanna heal and tank eveyone wants to pew pew the hell out of mobs not keep the party alive.

[Kalfear]

I agree with OP that wait times are horrible (not just for DPS but Healers as well).

My server seems to have a real shortage of tanks

 

Having said that however,

hardly a day goes by I dont add another DPS'er to my ignore list for being nothing short of an idiot

 

Off top of head this week here some examples

 

Playing healer and get tactical spawn of Corperate Labs

at first boss (The huge Droid) the Vangard DPS leaps in and subs as tank (awesome but does require larger heals as not a speced tank)

2nd DPS was ranged and was fine

3rd DPS takes up behind me hidden in a corner

 

Adds come out

Vangard on boss

2nd DPS clears adds on right side

3rd DPS continues to shoot boss from range completely ignoring adds

I kill adds on left of me and mention to 3rd dps its his job to pick up adds

 

he reply "It is? why?" and proceeds to ignore adds for 2 more rounds

 

We get to 2nd boss

once again the 4 droid adds come out, race towards me as healer, and moron dps sits there shooting boss ignoring adds, 3 times adds come out, 3 times he never stops hammer shoting boss (I wish I was joking)

 

I "accidentally" forgot to heal him rest of flash point and added his name to my ignore list on 2 55 healers, 1 55 tank, and 1 55 DPS characters, (and my other 39 tank and 29 tank just for future measure to ensure never grouping with him again)

 

I run 5-8 flash points a day and EVERY DAY lately some DPS ends up on my no group list

 

Stupid crap like jumping ahead of tank when they dont have gear or ability to handle such a maneuver

Not picking up adds (standard DPS duty in any FP or Ops)

Constantly breaking CC because they to stupid to change target after seeing mob cc'd (or worse breaking cc with mob marked as being cc'd)

Positioning self as far away from healing terminals in tactical's so they never responsible to take that one sec and heal group (such a selfish maneuver on their part)

 

But the moron DPS move of the year goes to this incident

 

Again Corporate labs

Every boss fight this one DPS would run and click on all the healing terminals BEFORE attacking the boss

 

So honestly baffled by this behaviour (honestly never seen it before) I asked

 

"DPS, why are you wasting healing terminals before you attack? Just attack boss, Ill take care of healing fine (I was on my sage in full 180 gear fully augmented.)

 

He replied "ST*U and heal"

and then followed up with

"Besides its a good habit to get into to click on terminals at start of fight"

 

This was a bad group as we hit enrage timer on ALL 3 BOSSES because this guy would stop fighting and run to terminals when he was already at full health.

Still amazed we managed to win those fights and have never seen any other group hit a single enrage timer (SM or HM) so consistently.

 

That DPSer name was added to every single one of my Rep characters ignore lists. Even the lvl 11 mission runners I have.

 

Ive seen some bad tanks and some bad healers as well (not that often but occasionally) but far and away the worst consistently are the PUG DPSers.

 

So wouldn't shock me at all some DPSers have earned bad reps and they sit in queues because they been mass ignored by so many other players. These people don't seem to understand that their bad behavior and antics WILL AND DOES have a negative lasting effect on their future game play and grouping ability.

 

To be fair Ive met some great DPSers as well and those groups are a blessing to be sure.

 

EDIT: woops, didn't notice this was an old thread... stupid google.

 

LOL me to (I never look at dates) but thread is still very much a issue.

 

Least on my server

So my response still counts

Edited October 3, 2014 by Kalfear

[HelinCarnate]

Im with Kalfear. I have multiple healers and tanks and the people I put on ignore most often are DPS.....mostly sentinels and marauders it seems. Something about that class just attracts stupid players more than others. Granted I have seen some terrible players on all classes and great ones as well but it just seems that you seem to encounter twice as many bad mara/sents vs other classes.

 

So your best bet to faster pops as a DPS are to not stand in giant circles of death, kill weakest to strongest, kill adds when they spawn on boss fights, know how to drop agro and stay in range of your healer and guard (if applicable). Not doing those things can get you on ignore lists and only increase your wait time.

Edited October 3, 2014 by HelinCarnate

[Kalfear]

Im with Kalfear. I have multiple healers and tanks and the people I put on ignore most often are DPS.....mostly sentinels and marauders it seems. Something about that class just attracts stupid players more than others. Granted I have seen some terrible players on all classes and great ones as well but it just seems that you seem to encounter twice as many bad mara/sents vs other classes.

 

heh Sentinels and snipers for me.

 

Snipers on the imp side drive me freaking batty in flashpoints

[Jicydd]

I think there are not alot of tank's because they go through so much sh*t, like dps pulling mobs in fp's or attacking elite/silver mobs while the tank watches the healer get aggro from trash mobs when the dps should be killing them before anything in most situations.

 

Let a tank do his/her thing.....sounds simple but for me when I had a pt tank at level 45 I quit leveling because of so much idiots. I have played both sides but never a healer. Before I played a tank to level 45 honestly I was a noob i didnt give much thought of what I was doing or how pulling mobs a nd what not would affect other players in my group specifically the tank and healer, but after playing a tank and see what it was like on the other side I then realized how stressful it was to play as a tank.

 

It just wasn't fun at all, but those rare occasions when I did have a great group that knew how to play they're class I loved it. Also what I have been noticing alot is that in hm level 50 fp's (yes I know we are still talking about level 55 hm fp's) a level 50 ish tank will que up and a dps with uber gear will just not give 2 sh*ts and pull mobs and take on the role as a tank. Sometimes the tank will quit sometimes the tank will just not say a word and finish the fp. I feel real bad for them cuz its just fcked up.

 

In the end this will continue to happen and wont stop cuz of morons, I'm sorry if I sound blunt and rude but it's the truth.

[Halinalle]

I think there are not alot of tank's because they go through so much sh*t, like dps pulling mobs in fp's or attacking elite/silver mobs while the tank watches the healer get aggro from trash mobs when the dps should be killing them before anything in most situations.

 

Let's not forget:

- DPS queuing as heals and doesn't respec (DPS tanks aren't as bad since all content in this game can be tanked by DPS, for example 38k HP Balance Shadow I met in level 50 HM where he killed boss before my Combat Sentinel got through the opener)

- Healer/DPS: "Use your AoE taunt noob!" when tank hasn't reached level 30 yet.

Edited October 3, 2014 by Halinalle

[NrDLeipe]

As a tank id say random fps can be fun but when it goes wrong its 95% dps that runs around like headless chickens.

When i play dps in a fp i take weakest targets first and even then i see my co dps go fully crazy on elites only and aggro goes all over the place.

 

Now especially with the whole conquest going on i barely see any reason to pug a grp, full grp of guildies = smooth run + we keep all the points in the guild, im not gonna give points away to other guilds when we are competing in the conquest aswell

[ChroniKill]

The reasons I never do a HM GF as a tank:

 

1. I'd rather go with my guild and have a smooth run

2. There's no point - commendation rewards for tanks suck, I'd rather just run an operation and get better gear

[Knorlac]

While I agree that bad DPS can be frustrating, I've seen my share of bad tanks as well, especially while playing a healer.

 

-Just attacking one mob in a group and letting the rest swarm me

-Not waiting for my energy to recharge before pulling the next group

-rushing ahead without giving anyone a chance to heal up or even loot so I barely get to them before they die

-no knowledge of tactics (especially in Czerka Meltdown's desert environment dome, where we once had to let a mara do the tanking after the real tank managed to wipe us 3 times)

-attitude problems like raging at every small mistake and initiating a vote kick over nothing

 

All in all I'd say that bad/inexperienced DPS result in just as much, if not more stress for a healer who has to keep everyone up at the same time when aggro is all over the place. Yet I seldom see a healer leave unless there have been wipes, while tanks often seems to think: Screw the others who waited 45+ mins I'll get an insa pop anyways and just leave without saying a word.

[Orizuru]

I rarely get to do random groups when I queue as a tank. Between my guild and my friends list, I can easily field a full group for any HM FP within minutes of logging into one of my tanks. By the time I'm done tanking a few runs with my friends and guildies I usually don't have any time left to queue by myself to put a tank into the group finder system.

 

From what I've seen in the various guilds and the other tanks I've known in-game, I am of the mind that this is a fairly common situation for many tanks.

[DawnAskham]

While I agree that bad DPS can be frustrating, I've seen my share of bad tanks as well, especially while playing a healer.

 

-Just attacking one mob in a group and letting the rest swarm me

-Not waiting for my energy to recharge before pulling the next group

-rushing ahead without giving anyone a chance to heal up or even loot so I barely get to them before they die

-no knowledge of tactics (especially in Czerka Meltdown's desert environment dome, where we once had to let a mara do the tanking after the real tank managed to wipe us 3 times)

-attitude problems like raging at every small mistake and initiating a vote kick over nothing

 

All in all I'd say that bad/inexperienced DPS result in just as much, if not more stress for a healer who has to keep everyone up at the same time when aggro is all over the place. Yet I seldom see a healer leave unless there have been wipes, while tanks often seems to think: Screw the others who waited 45+ mins I'll get an insa pop anyways and just leave without saying a word.

 

QFT

 

It isn't bad dps players that cause a lack of tanks, as bad players fill all roles including tank, and bad players of all roles cause issues for groups.

 

Bad dps players coupled with nearly instant queues contribute to more prima donna attitude tanks who will drop at the slightest hint of trouble rather than try and see it though, and the nearly instant queue also leads to tanks more likely to drop if they don't get the FP they wanted (rather than just queue specific).

 

Outside of that, there are a host of reasons for fewer tanks - ratios required in swtor (1:2 vs 1:3 in many games), crappy comm gear for tanks (even many Ult Comm items have no / low mitigation), more stressful role, anti-tank mechanics (getting stunned / cc'd / knocked back many times a run by trash is annoying), wonky threat (taunts can miss / tps for tanks doesn't scale with dps), soloing non-group content as tank is slow (dailies, farming), etc.

 

Add in the bad players to the mix above, along with the nearly instant queues, and tanks feel they are entitled to perfect groups and getting the one FP they enjoy - if they don't get it, they drop like petulant little kids.

Edited October 3, 2014 by DawnAskham

[Ottoattack]

OP, there is no solution. Based on BW the formula is Tank : Healer : Dps is 1:1:2. This no where near correct. There is way more dps than there are tanks and healers.

 

BW think that the solution is that dps will que for tactical FPs, LMAO. How did that work out?

[Foambreaker]

Oh noes Mr Bill we are short 1 DPS....

 

Got a dime?

[Halinalle]

-Just attacking one mob in a group and letting the rest swarm me

 

That tells more about DPS not doing their job.

 

DPS Kill Order:

1) Anything that is attacking healer

2) Standard/Weak

3) Strong

4) Elite

5) Champion

[Feanar]

While I agree that bad DPS can be frustrating, I've seen my share of bad tanks as well, especially while playing a healer.

 

-Just attacking one mob in a group and letting the rest swarm me

-Not waiting for my energy to recharge before pulling the next group

-rushing ahead without giving anyone a chance to heal up or even loot so I barely get to them before they die

-no knowledge of tactics (especially in Czerka Meltdown's desert environment dome, where we once had to let a mara do the tanking after the real tank managed to wipe us 3 times)

-attitude problems like raging at every small mistake and initiating a vote kick over nothing

 

All in all I'd say that bad/inexperienced DPS result in just as much, if not more stress for a healer who has to keep everyone up at the same time when aggro is all over the place. Yet I seldom see a healer leave unless there have been wipes, while tanks often seems to think: Screw the others who waited 45+ mins I'll get an insa pop anyways and just leave without saying a word.

 

This, so much this. It was same in WoW, it's same here, and nothing we do can change that. As Scarra once said (Well-known LoL player), "People are bad, because people are bad".

[bdatt]

I queued for HM 55 solo during prime time as dps for the first time ever last week. Expecting a long wait I went to do something else. 30 seconds later queue popped. I was fearful the tank or healer was on the entire server's ignore list (besides me and the two other unlucky folks) since I got a near instant pop. Smooth run all around. Perhaps I just got lucky.

[TrigPt]

I don't think queue times are too bad for dps.

I have two dps toons I'm currently collecting comms for and manage to get the daily done almost everyday. I'd say my wait time is typically 15-20mins. Sometimes it can stretch out beyond 30mins but that's rare. When I log on first thing I do is join queue then do other stuff whilst waiting such as check GTN start doing dailies or read these forums over a coffee..

 

This is on The Red Eclipse 12noon -9pm GMT

 

As for bad players most people overgear the HM FPs now so it's not really an issue if you have to carry someone. In fact I prefer it since it makes me have to think a bit when things don't go to plan.

 

The real challenge will come when the expansion comes and people aren't overgeared anymore for the hopefully new HM FPs. After so long being fed easy content it might be a bit of culture shock for some. I remember for the first couple of weeks after the last level increase running 55HM FPs with PUG groups took typically 2-3 wiipes to finish. Happy days.

Edited October 3, 2014 by TrigPt

[Grayseven]

Personally I am not skipping those missions on my tank chars, but I limit myself mostly to my guild. That way I can ensure, that my guildies are getting a tank knowing his job and I know that I will get a healer and 2 DDs who will not cause me to wipe. (Same for my healer chars... my DDs however are skipping the missions )

 

Bioware cannot do anything to make me play with strangers (more).

 

This.

 

Tanking a PuG is a thankless job. There is always a DPS that thinks the tank isn't going fast enough, or who doesn't want to wait for mat gathering, or who thinks they can kill a mob faster than it can kill him.

 

When I tank, it's with at least 2 other guild mates. While I'm not an experienced tank I am an experienced healer and dps and know what the tanks job is and I really don't want to have to deal with PuG's who don't and won't tank whine about how I'm tanking.

 

Free advice, OP...roll a tank. Run some HM PuGs and deal with what people who regularly tank have to deal with. If you aren't willing to put yourself in the tanks shoes, you can't gripe about it.