Arena's show the true state of balance in PvP

[Jintel]

So, from ranked warzones we all knew that PvP balance wasn't great but arenas really show just how bad it actually is....

Before the game even starts you know if its a loss or win just by looking at the classes/specs in your/opposition team. For example, if you see an operative DPS you know that whichever team has that AC is going to lose just based on how unbalanced the classes are.

 

Now people will say L2P or its skill dependent, but its not at all! Even the best operative DPS, madness assassin, merc, veng jug is going to lose to a team of mediocre FoTM classes (operative healer, hybrid PT/deception assasin/mara smash) and that's just plain sad.

 

I guess what im trying to say is that BW, congratulations, you have created maybe the worse PvP balanced MMO I have certainly ever played on.

[RiChess]

So, from ranked warzones we all knew that PvP balance wasn't great but arenas really show just how bad it actually is....

Before the game even starts you know if its a loss or win just by looking at the classes/specs in your/opposition team. For example, if you see an operative DPS you know that whichever team has that AC is going to lose just based on how unbalanced the classes are.

 

Now people will say L2P or its skill dependent, but its not at all! Even the best operative DPS, madness assassin, merc, veng jug is going to lose to a team of mediocre FoTM classes (operative healer, hybrid PT/deception assasin/mara smash) and that's just plain sad.

 

I guess what im trying to say is that BW, congratulations, you have created maybe the worse PvP balanced MMO I have certainly ever played on.

 

I leave arenas that are blatantly unbalanced. For example the 1 op healer 3 mara team vs my teams 1200 exp 27k sin tank, me on my pyro merc, and two random sin dps. At that point why even bother. And this kind of stuff happens all the time.

[NathanielStarr]

Yes and it's really bad.

[KhalDrogoe]

After season 1, they'll see the discrepancy between the classes on the leader boards. Merc will of course be the lowest because there are no competitive specs. But the Mara/Op/PT will all post the highest numbers overall. It's actually somewhat apparent right now.

[NathanielStarr]

After season 1, they'll see the discrepancy between the classes on the leader boards. Merc will of course be the lowest because there are no competitive specs. But the Mara/Op/PT will all post the highest numbers overall. It's actually somewhat apparent right now.

 

It was apparent before, but hopefully with it taking a giant dump on the chest of Bioware they'll be forced to do something.

[KhalDrogoe]

You're right, the players have been very vocal about which classes are OP and which are turbo suck.

 

But somehow, the "devs" are happy with how the classes are performing. Obviously they're getting metrics from somewhere other than the live game, or else they would do something about it. Mercs have been the most nerfed class in the history of this game, yet to them they're exactly where they need to be (which is bottom of totem pole and first targeted)

[Hiltingp]

So, from ranked warzones we all knew that PvP balance wasn't great but arenas really show just how bad it actually is....

Before the game even starts you know if its a loss or win just by looking at the classes/specs in your/opposition team. For example, if you see an operative DPS you know that whichever team has that AC is going to lose just based on how unbalanced the classes are.

 

Now people will say L2P or its skill dependent, but its not at all! Even the best operative DPS, madness assassin, merc, veng jug is going to lose to a team of mediocre FoTM classes (operative healer, hybrid PT/deception assasin/mara smash) and that's just plain sad.

 

I guess what im trying to say is that BW, congratulations, you have created maybe the worse PvP balanced MMO I have certainly ever played on.

 

Lol......so what are you gonna say about competitive teams of TOFN that play with sorc dps, operative dps, vengeance juggs, annihilation marauders and tank sin in their teams? The better teams actually DO play with these classes, yes, my dear friend. I guess by the end of this post you already figured that yeah, l2p issue.

[Zoom_VI]

But somehow, the "devs" are happy with how the classes are performing. Obviously they're getting metrics from somewhere other than the live game, or else they would do something about it. Mercs have been the most nerfed class in the history of this game, yet to them they're exactly where they need to be (which is bottom of totem pole and first targeted)

Mercs where nerfed....once in 1.2

Everything else has been a buff since then.

[Glower]

Mercs have been the most nerfed class in the history of this game, yet to them they're exactly where they need to be (which is bottom of totem pole and first targeted)

 

Mercs where nerfed....once in 1.2

Everything else has been a buff since then.

 

Mercs? How about Operative DPS?

[Plicitous]

\What we're seeing now in PvP is similar to some of the struggles Blizzard has faced when trying to balance Warcraft 3 and StarCraft II. There are specs that the conventional wisdom frowns upon and yet there are always outliers proving the conventional wisdom wrong, and that usually indicates that things are fairly balanced when all classes are played optimally. The problem occurs when some of those specs are much more difficult (or easy) to play than others and that's exactly what's happening now. Mara/Sents and PT/Vanguards are low skill, high output classes so it's only natural that people flock to those classes.

 

The key to getting this right is to design classes/specs in such a way that they require a high skill level to achieve maximum output. Optimizing skill rewards is the key to balance nirvana. Sadly, it's much easier said than done. One of the huge challenges is getting it just right for different segments of the population. It's possible to have things tuned almost perfectly at the highest levels while still having a game that's horribly unbalanced for lesser skilled players. It's a trade off and a difficult one at that.

Edited November 18, 2013 by Plicitous

[warultima]

The most nerfed is definitely concealment operative. They went from "kill you before you learn how to walk" to the current state, a waste of team slot.

 

Mercs were nerfed 1 time, and a few bug fixes, the rest of it, they got straight up buffs, its just that its not nearly as as good as mara/tankasin/PT and so on. All the chain buffs mercs got simply was not enough (partly because BW/EA also are extremely well-known of their tendency to buff the most powerful/op classes).

 

Since there are a lot of noobie on this forum that have very little idea how the game "evolved" or "degraded", here's some example.

 

When SWTOR was released, most marauders and their mom used to be Annihilation, which is extremely powerful and nearly unkillable, rage and carnage was "about even as other classes". BW buffed Carnage (in attempt to make them as good as Anni) and less and less people using Annihilation (since its harder than both carnage and smash newbs), and shortly after BW revamped "smash monkey tree" on both mara and juggs, and the age of smashtards is created.

 

The point isnt how BW created smashtard spec for newbs to compete, its that Anni was already percived as overpowered which they did NOT nerf while giving them even more options to be OP eg, going monkey newb or roll carnage.

 

BW rarely (if ever) straight up nerf anything (EXCLUDING the chain nerfs they've done to concealment operative), or straight up buffing anything other than some of the already powerful classes.

 

e.g off the top of my head, sorc knockback buffed to instant, but they also nerf its 360 degree to frontal cone, they buffed rocket punch for merc to a root (so they dont unintentionally fill enemy resolve) yet they they nerfed RP's knockback when it should've been a knockback + root.

Edited November 18, 2013 by warultima

[Monterone]

Actually, operatives and sorcs are the most nerfed classes in this game. Ops got some major nerfs in a couple of big patches, and sorcs have been serially nerfed, over and over, for about a year and a half.

[Racter]

Yeah merc tears are hilarious, clearly you don't know concealment operatives exist. Although to be fair there are a whopping 30 of us left in the world so not really worth worrying about I guess.

 

Hilarious that people can run DPS Ops on TOFN. Bring that team to Pot5. i will give you 10mil credits each if you take a single round from a serious team on Pot5 with a DPS Op rofl

[DarthSabreth]

I totally agree that pvp in this game is ultra unbalanced, here is how I see the imbalance:

 

1. Op/Scoundrel heals, they are the best healers in the game, not that their heals are better or more powerful, but that the energy management is way off and costs much less than other healers in the game, a skilled Op healer can heal a arena group and him/herself and it will take most of the other team to take them down. no other healer class can claim this, all other healers are cast intencive. they need to have their energy cost increased a bit to counter this issue.

 

2. PT/VG dps, their burst damage is some of the best in the game, and pre 2.0 this really wasn't an issue because they were really squishy, but post 2.0 it seems that their survivability has increased a great deal, no class should have ultra high burst with really great damage mitigation, this needs to be re-tweeked back the way it was.

 

3. assin/shadow: again, the dps class has great burst with great damage mitigation, and if they are a damage / tank hybrid spec this is even more apparent, some of the better defense traits should be higher up on the tree to balance this issue.

 

4. Merc / commando: this class does not need a nerf but the CC this class has is now pretty high, the issue is the slows and other cc's should give a higher gain to the other players resolve, this class has too much kitting potential, no other class can claim this.

 

5. sniper/slinger, only issue I have with this class is their ability to cap a node from cover, this should break cover when they do this.

 

this in my opinion is what is needed, most of the other classes / AC's are alright.

[Corsin]

The OP is talking about arenas not warzones...

my comments on your post are in red.

 

I totally agree that pvp in this game is ultra unbalanced, here is how I see the imbalance:

 

1. Op/Scoundrel heals, they are the best healers in the game, not that their heals are better or more powerful, but that the energy management is way off and costs much less than other healers in the game, a skilled Op healer can heal a arena group and him/herself and it will take most of the other team to take them down. no other healer class can claim this, all other healers are cast intencive. they need to have their energy cost increased a bit to counter this issue. - agreed

2. PT/VG dps, their burst damage is some of the best in the game, and pre 2.0 this really wasn't an issue because they were really squishy, but post 2.0 it seems that their survivability has increased a great deal, no class should have ultra high burst with really great damage mitigation, this needs to be re-tweeked back the way it was. Ion cylinder DPS PT/VG's are currently the only thing broken with that class.... the other trees are fine.

 

3. assin/shadow: again, the dps class has great burst with great damage mitigation, and if they are a damage / tank hybrid spec this is even more apparent, some of the better defense traits should be higher up on the tree to balance this issue. - Assassins have nice burst but their sustained damage is poor making it a far more demanding class to play in group arenas where sometimes the damage output just isnt there. However in solo que they still dominate quite effectively.

4. Merc / commando: this class does not need a nerf but the CC this class has is now pretty high, the issue is the slows and other cc's should give a higher gain to the other players resolve, this class has too much kitting potential, no other class can claim this. - I kinda like where merc dps is at, altho their heals need a boost.

 

5. sniper/slinger, only issue I have with this class is their ability to cap a node from cover, this should break cover when they do this. - who cares about warzones? They give the space and time to allow any class to do well.... and are a poor measure of balance.

this in my opinion is what is needed, most of the other classes / AC's are alright.

 

 

the classes/specs that need improvements are....

 

Ops dps.... need more sustained damage.

 

Sorc heals.... nuff said

 

Merc Heals

 

Jugg Dps.... where Jugg tanks are awesome in group rateds as tanks. Juggs fall pretty hard in solo and group ques as dps since they have like the worst defensive cool-downs of any class.... (ironic given their name). You can see a noticeable gab in the rating on solo ques for juggs compared to any other class.

 

Assassin Madness - Just needs some love

 

 

 

Nerfs

The Ion cylinder needs to be far less effective at dealing damage than it currently is.

 

Op healer energy

[Cretinus]

I totally agree that pvp in this game is ultra unbalanced, here is how I see the imbalance:

 

1. Op/Scoundrel heals, they are the best healers in the game, not that their heals are better or more powerful, but that the energy management is way off and costs much less than other healers in the game, a skilled Op healer can heal a arena group and him/herself and it will take most of the other team to take them down. no other healer class can claim this, all other healers are cast intencive. they need to have their energy cost increased a bit to counter this issue.

 

2. PT/VG dps, their burst damage is some of the best in the game, and pre 2.0 this really wasn't an issue because they were really squishy, but post 2.0 it seems that their survivability has increased a great deal, no class should have ultra high burst with really great damage mitigation, this needs to be re-tweeked back the way it was.

 

3. assin/shadow: again, the dps class has great burst with great damage mitigation, and if they are a damage / tank hybrid spec this is even more apparent, some of the better defense traits should be higher up on the tree to balance this issue.

 

4. Merc / commando: this class does not need a nerf but the CC this class has is now pretty high, the issue is the slows and other cc's should give a higher gain to the other players resolve, this class has too much kitting potential, no other class can claim this.

 

5. sniper/slinger, only issue I have with this class is their ability to cap a node from cover, this should break cover when they do this.

 

this in my opinion is what is needed, most of the other classes / AC's are alright.

 

According to what you're writing, the only classes that are fine are warries/knights and sorcs/sages.

 

But sorcs/sages are not really fine. They're too squishy and die very, very fast. They could use a slight buff to survivability.

 

And warries/knights (in particular maras/sents) are at least as bursty as PT/VG and have dmg mitigation tools that are at least as good as those of PT/VG. They could use a slight nerf either to burst, or to defensive CDs.

 

And who could be interested in not buffing sorcs, not nerfing maras/sents and nerfing all other classes? A mara/sent of course. So your main is probably a mara/sent.

[valeita]

Now people will say L2P or its skill dependent, but its not at all! Even the best operative DPS, madness assassin, merc, veng jug is going to lose to a team of mediocre FoTM classes (operative healer, hybrid PT/deception assasin/mara smash) and that's just plain sad.

 

Yeah, it's really sad =(

[Agenteusa]

According to what you're writing, the only classes that are fine are warries/knights and sorcs/sages.

 

But sorcs/sages are not really fine. They're too squishy and die very, very fast. They could use a slight buff to survivability.

 

And warries/knights (in particular maras/sents) are at least as bursty as PT/VG and have dmg mitigation tools that are at least as good as those of PT/VG. They could use a slight nerf either to burst, or to defensive CDs.

 

And who could be interested in not buffing sorcs, not nerfing maras/sents and nerfing all other classes? A mara/sent of course. So your main is probably a mara/sent.

 

You can't say a class without mentioning a tree.

 

For instance Maras/sents are as bursty as a PT/VG. WRONG

 

Have dmg mitigation tools that are as good as PT/VG. WRONG

 

Maras have way better mitigation tools than a PT/VG unless you go Shield spec. It's not even comparable.

 

See I don't even know what you're talking about, care to describe which trees you're mentioning?

 

And sorcs/sages aren't squishy it just seems to be we have the same sort of noobism that we had when I left the game. PEople have no clue how to play with the classes and then say barbarities.

 

At my time Maras were the FOTM class so I decided to roll one, I was good with it not the best but good but you could count with one hand really good Maras on the server.

 

And btw I don't know if it got nerfed even more but the first class in this game to receive the nerf bat was the conc OP. It was rendered virtually useless at the time so that doesn't surprise me and it was all involving stealth.

Edited November 18, 2013 by Agenteusa

[Dartai]

The point isnt how BW created smashtard spec for newbs to compete, its that Anni was already percived as overpowered which they did NOT nerf while giving them even more options to be OP eg, going monkey newb or roll carnage.

 

This part is incorrect, Annhi most definitely got nerfed, hard. Their damage dependent on dots, which have no cleanse protection and can be removed by any healer, and their survivability is based on those dots critting and healing them. BW nerfed that heal by 50%. No one plays it now because its damage is easily mitigated by a half-intelligent healer and its survivability with that healing nerf is garbage. Smash was always strong, people just didn't play it because of how good Annhi was; when its healing was nerfed, people jumped ship and went with smash.

[AlrikFassbauer]

5. sniper/slinger, only issue I have with this class is their ability to cap a node from cover, this should break cover when they do this.

 

I never knew that Gunslingers could do this. Have I missed something ?

 

Or do you rather mean Scoundrels ?

Edited November 18, 2013 by AlrikFassbauer

[Majspuffen]

The key to getting this right is to design classes/specs in such a way that they require a high skill level to achieve maximum output. Optimizing skill rewards is the key to balance nirvana. Sadly, it's much easier said than done. One of the huge challenges is getting it just right for different segments of the population. It's possible to have things tuned almost perfectly at the highest levels while still having a game that's horribly unbalanced for lesser skilled players. It's a trade off and a difficult one at that.

 

Unfortunately Bioware is taking strides away from this notion. My favourite spec before 2.0 was the Balance Shadow. The class was very squishy but it had incredibly powerful defensive CDs (if used right) and the damage was very versatile, being able to do unhealable single-target damage or AoE pressure. Bioware thought that this spec was too hard to play however and dumbed down the gameplay and nerfed the spec so damn hard that it's barely even good at AoE pressure anymore. It is easy to make nice numbers for the scoreboard, but this spec's damage isn't lethal... and it's boring as hell to play now.

 

If Bioware were to somehow make this spec viable then we'd see smashtard v2 because the gameplay is just too easy to justify being powerful. It was the same with Operative Healers in my experience; I played one at launch and I thought that they were great. I did all nightmare content in pve and I was pretty known on my server for being incredibly hard to kill, but it was harder to manage energy back then so fewer could play the class well... then they were over-buffed and dumbified (more so in 2.0 for no reason) which leads to, well...

 

I think it's pretty obvious. Why are the devs so blind? Are we wrong?

Edited November 18, 2013 by Majspuffen

[Agenteusa]

It was the same with Operative Healers in my experience; I played one at launch and I thought that they were great. I did all nightmare content in pve and I was pretty known on my server for being incredibly hard to kill, but it was harder to manage energy back then so fewer could play the class well... then they were over-buffed and dumbified (more so in 2.0 for no reason) which leads to, well...

 

I think it's pretty obvious. Why are the devs so blind? Are we wrong?

 

Yes you could do all content , yes you weren't a bad healer at best. They were great? Really???

 

At least 2 heals from the Operative were broken at launch and they didn't get fixed until much later , I can't remember the second one but the first was the top tree talent. It was broken so you couldn't effectively heal a group, at best support another healer with good dots and good channels.

 

PVP wise it was the same we were ok but undoubtely the merc/comm healer was the best pvp healer and even the sorc could outshine us in at least 2 WZ's.

[Cretinus]

You can't say a class without mentioning a tree.

 

I can. Because I'm answering to a post that itself says classes without mentioning the trees.

 

For instance Maras/sents are as bursty as a PT/VG. WRONG

 

This you say without mentioning trees? A tank VG has more burst than a mara? Hmmm... I don't think so....

 

VHave dmg mitigation tools that are as good as PT/VG. WRONG

 

Maras have way better mitigation tools than a PT/VG unless you go Shield spec. It's not even comparable.

 

Really? Now check that post of mine that you were quoting.

Small hint: Look for the term "at least" in

"Maras/sents have dmg mitigation tools that are at least as good as PT/VG"

 

and then compare with your statement that

"Maras have way better mitigation tools than a PT/VG...".

 

Care to elaborate where is the difference?

 

Perhaps you should read more carefully what you're quoting, and also have a brief look at the post that's being answered in that quotation.

[Agenteusa]

I can. Because I'm answering to a post that itself says classes without mentioning the trees.

 

This you say without mentioning trees? A tank VG has more burst than a mara? Hmmm... I don't think so....

 

 

 

Really? Now check that post of mine that you were quoting.

Small hint: Look for the term "at least" in

"Maras/sents have dmg mitigation tools that are at least as good as PT/VG"

 

and then compare with your statement that

"Maras have way better mitigation tools than a PT/VG...".

 

Care to elaborate where is the difference?

 

Perhaps you should read more carefully what you're quoting, and also have a brief look at the post that's being answered in that quotation.

 

1- So if the comparison is wrong at start you just go with the flow? :w

 

2- No , but then again you can pick any mara tree and it won't have the same burst as a Pyro PT. That was actually the point, why I mentioned you should compare trees.

 

3- I know and I noticed and I didn't quote that part since it was irrelevant to my statement. The "at least" in that sentence was downgrading the mara even more so I think you can come to a conclusion.

 

Oh I read Mr. , I think you should read more insightfully cause you didn't interpret what I said correctly, no offense meant.

[Jiminison]

lol play wow if you want massive imbalance . Swtor is at least in the ballpark and relatively a new game. Keep up the good work BW.