Why are their no macro's again?

[Zoom_VI]

Most of my mmo time has been spent with games that had macro systems. It was a normal thing to do. On the same level of convenience and customization as changing settings, changing your UI, keybinding, etc. All this anti-macro talk is interesting. I haven't seen that often.

 

Using lead-gasoline to reduce engine bumping was standard for half a century and nobody thought anything of it either. Just because it was standard for other past things doesn't make it good.

 

Also you can argue optional all you want.

 

Taking operative healers into ranked is "optional" as well, but you are gimping yourself to bring other healers even though both can heal. Same with macros. You don't have to use them, but your just disadvantaging yourself by not using them.

[GreenLantern]

I think I understand the OP and what he is trying to say. Allow me to translate.

*Clears throat*

I'm bad. I don't possess the skills to press multiple buttons at once. Please lower the games overall skill requirement to my level so that I am satisfied. Never mind that my solution to solving my own inefficiencies I have presented can easily be game breaking (I just can't fathom how, for as I have previously stated, I'm bad). Thank you all for your time.

*End Scene*

 

I think I really captured the essence of the post. I could be the next Ben Affleck or Nick Cage!

[Mazikeen]

So combat macros don't give you a benefit? They don't make it so that you can do more things in combat than you'd be able to do with a keystrokes and a mouse?

 

No, they don't. have you not realized a global cooldown exists? If anything macros make timing WORSE because if you're off by too much then the next command simply won't fire (due to the GCD) which either eliminates the macro chain or simply throws everything out of sync.

Edited November 13, 2013 by Mazikeen
Grammar/spelling

[Mazikeen]

If you want to risk banning by using hardware to circumvent the in game ability to "chain" multiple actions to a single keystroke, be my guest.

 

1) I never said I used them, I was offering the OP a solution to a problem. I know this is a rare thing on forums, but it happens from time to time.

2) Basic macros are allowed in pretty much all MMOs provided the actions can be reasonably mimicked by the player without them. Mouseover macros and two-click macros are almost universally allowed. Chains of 5-20 abilities and botting scripts are almost universally bannable offenses.

3) I appreciate you giving me your permission to do things

[Mazikeen]

Using macros is less about player crutch or lack of skill, and more about circumventing bad design.

 

What 'bad design', exactly? GCDs? Multiple abilities? Abilities that depend on or benefit from others being active? None of these are bad design, they're intentional. Macros make repetitive actions simpler, no more and no less.

 

Macros pose a risk as much as they do a benefit. Yes, they can nail your 'reaction times' down to a millisecond but you still face issues with server lag and interrupts borking the chain. You face issues with trying to cast other abilities mid-chain during a GCD because the encounter took an unexpected turn. You face issues of predictability. Worst of all, longer macros make things very boring (in fact, macro use pretty much destroyed Rift for me, though it was my own fault).

 

If you NEED macros it IS a l2p issue. MMOs are so dumbed down these days it's pathetic. If you simply want them to make life a bit easier (or in the case of mouseover, slow down carpal tumnel) then yes, you have my support.

[captpickles]

I can hazard 1 guess.. like the whole chat-bubble debacle... adding a 'engine' to ''process macros'' would likely make the client side engine lag so much it would be unplayable.

 

because if macros would make money and up subs, **and macros would** .. it would be in the game already if it were feasible.

 

im guessing the engine cannot handle it.

Edited November 13, 2013 by captpickles

[TUXs]

I can hazard 1 guess.. like the whole chat-bubble debacle... adding a 'engine' to ''process macros'' would likely make the client side engine lag so much it would be unplayable.

 

because if macros would make money and up subs, **and macros would** .. it would be in the game already if it were feasible.

 

im guessing the engine cannot handle it.

 

Good guess actually.

[HoloTweed]

Again, macro's are optional and very opinionated. If you think your better without macro's then simply state it to yourself and move on. Say something that explains why other players shouldn't have them, or leave the thread. Otherwise I will just report you for harassment.

 

Here's the simple reason: macros should not be allowed because it gives an advantage to people who know (or want) to use them. If someone else doesn't know how to make one, he is now disadvantaged.

 

And before you anyone rushes to say "They can look it up!" - they shouldn't HAVE to. It should not be up to a player to research some element that is not part of the basic way the game operates in order to not be disadvantaged.

 

So the guy wanting to string together three keystrokes on one macro would gain an unfair advantage over anyone unfamiliar, unable or unwilling to create macros and figure out which macros should do what for the most intelligent usage.

 

It's just this simple.

[Oteefo]

"Again?"

 

I've never been aware of macros in this game since launch......

[CommanderKeeva]

Not sure your understanding. I don't need third party software running in the game to use my macros. My G15 Logitech keyboard does all my Macros for me. Paired with my Naga razor mouse {of which there is a SWTOR version} and I have 66 keys to tie abilitys too. If you need third party software to Macro with you should not be playing.

 

That's exactly the thing. Hardware macros are still macros and they are still against the Terms of Service. Bioware has clearly stated that if you chain queue abilities to one button in any way or shape or form, be that with third-party software or expensive hardware, you are violating the ToS. Three activated skills (even skills not on the GCD) require either three button pushes, three clicks or a combination thereof. So pressing a button on your mouse or keyboard to activate three defensive cooldowns simultaneously is considered cheating. (Any action that gives you an advantage in violation of the ToS is cheating.)

 

But at the same time that Bioware is also marketing (and presumably taking cuts of the profit) these expensive hardware through a cross-promotion with Razer. People who invest hundreds of dollars into advanced computer accessories do so because they want the advantages they bring, not in the least the option to use macros to simplify their gaming. (And not because of all the shiny LED lights on them) And then they're told that they're violating the ToS if they're using said advanced features.

 

So it's a very awkward situation. On one hand they encourage you to spend piles of money on expensive mice and keyboards, but on the other they forbid you from using some of the features that distinguish said hardware from 10 buck junk mice.

 

Will they take action against hardware macros? Presumably, no. My friend has been using every concievable type of macro such paraphernalia can offer as well as mouse-over healing (he used to be a hardcore WoW player) since day one and he's as happy as ever. Bioware is yet to crack down on him for having played in violation of ToS for close to two years. They, presumably, never will.

 

But nevertheless the option remains. Macros on Razers, Nostromos and G-series keyboards are in violation of ToS. Can they detect ability chaining and mouse-over healing? Yes. Do they have the grounds for banning you for doing so? Yes. Will they actually do it? Not likely.

Edited November 13, 2013 by CommanderKeeva

[TUXs]

"Again?"

 

I've never been aware of macros in this game since launch......

 

"Again" as in "please explain, again, why".

[Ratajack]

1) I never said I used them, I was offering the OP a solution to a problem. I know this is a rare thing on forums, but it happens from time to time.

2) Basic macros are allowed in pretty much all MMOs provided the actions can be reasonably mimicked by the player without them. Mouseover macros and two-click macros are almost universally allowed. Chains of 5-20 abilities and botting scripts are almost universally bannable offenses.

3) I appreciate you giving me your permission to do things

 

 

This may be true in MOST MMO's, but I do not think it is true in this one. I believe this is the latest dev position on macros and third party hardware:

 

So a number of people have asked about text macros. A couple of others (even on reddit!) have mentioned 'colour detection to determine which action to take' systems. I even saw a questions about sequence clicking... I even saw claims that we can't detect anything and won't do a thing about this issue.

 

I'll address all four...

 

Text Macros

Strictly speaking, text macro's are against the ToS. If its for emotes etc and isn't being used as a way to advise others of an impending attack in a Warzone (inc snow! for example), then we will turn a blind eye to an extent. If you fire off emotes too many times in quick succession of course then you will get evaluated for if you are spamming.

 

One click 'enter chat, type 'inc snow!', hit enter' text macros designed to warn others is completely against the ToS. You need to make a decision - do I take the time to type 'inc snow' to the ops group, or do I just keep fighting this person... Think of it as an evaluation on if you are using a tool that gives you an unfair advantage over somebody not using that same tool.

 

Colour detection and evaluated action macros

The very act of determining a colour of a pixel on screen and as a result then using a specific action is one of the easy to understand examples of what we call automation. As soon as you have two things happening based on one key press, then its against the ToS.

 

Sequence clicking

If you have a system set up so that if you hit the same key 4 times likes so: '1, 1, 1, 1' and instead of just firing off whatever 1 is bound to it fires off '1, 2, 3, 4', then as long as you keep it to 'one key == one other key hit' its in that grey area of not true automation. There is a caveat - you can't have the macro determine a minimum time between clicks to work around the global cool down timing and only fire the next button in sequence if the GCD has expired.

 

If you instead have a system that when you hit 1, it fires of 1, 2, 3, 4 in quick succession or all at once (i.e. one click == many actions) in order to try and fire something that isn't currently in a cool down state then yes, that is against the ToS. Again, one click must always equal one action and only one action within the game.

 

Detection of abuse

There are many claims based on guesswork that we can't tell when a person is running automation for systems like field respeccing within seconds. Every time you interact with the server we log either the specific event or an aggregate of similar events firing multiple times. We can (and do!) look through those logs using analytic engines. If you want to know more about the concept, look up 'big data' in google - we strive to make all decisions on making changes to the game based on the data we have, and we have a lot of data.

 

We also use that data for game forensics - we may not react in a real-time manner for most things, but as people foolish enough to speedhack know, we can and do act based on irrefutable data.

 

Now, all that said, what are we going to be doing going forwards now that this issue is very much in the limelight?

 

Expect changes to the ability to field respec in Warzones. We were already working on this as part of some upcoming PvP updates (Bruce detailed some of that this week I believe), and we may bring the field respec changes forward - or we may just keep them where they are so to not impact the game update schedules and instead update our existing Warzone game forensic reporting to include inhumanly fast field respec events. Either way my advise if you are currently macroing within Warzones is to stop.

[Ratajack]

That's exactly the thing. Hardware macros are still macros and they are still against the Terms of Service. Bioware has clearly stated that if you chain queue abilities to one button in any way or shape or form, be that with third-party software or expensive hardware, you are violating the ToS. Three activated skills (even skills not on the GCD) require either three button pushes, three clicks or a combination thereof. So pressing a button on your mouse or keyboard to activate three defensive cooldowns simultaneously is considered cheating. (Any action that gives you an advantage in violation of the ToS is cheating.)

 

But at the same time that Bioware is also marketing (and presumably taking cuts of the profit) these expensive hardware through a cross-promotion with Razer. People who invest hundreds of dollars into advanced computer accessories do so because they want the advantages they bring, not in the least the option to use macros to simplify their gaming. (And not because of all the shiny LED lights on them) And then they're told that they're violating the ToS if they're using said advanced features.

 

So it's a very awkward situation. On one hand they encourage you to spend piles of money on expensive mice and keyboards, but on the other they forbid you from using some of the features that distinguish said hardware from 10 buck junk mice.

 

Will they take action against hardware macros? Presumably, no. My friend has been using every concievable type of macro such paraphernalia can offer as well as mouse-over healing (he used to be a hardcore WoW player) since day one and he's as happy as ever. Bioware is yet to crack down on him for having played in violation of ToS for close to two years. They, presumably, never will.

 

But nevertheless the option remains. Macros on Razers, Nostromos and G-series keyboards are in violation of ToS. Can they detect ability chaining and mouse-over healing? Yes. Do they have the grounds for banning you for doing so? Yes. Will they actually do it? Not likely.

 

I think that whether or not they take action against someone violating the TOS by using third party software or hardware to "chain" multiple actions to a single keystroke depends more on whether or not they have reason to investigate that person. With the number of people playing this game, I would be surprised if BW were actively investigating every player for this type of behavior. That situation may change if someone is reported, either by a single individual or multiple people. In that case, I think they may focus more on that individual player and be more likely to detect the use of third party macros and take the appropriate action.

 

They also choose to investigate the "top" PVP'ers to ensure that the competition is "fair".

 

Do I think the risk is worth the reward? No, but that is simply my opinion.

[Hyfy]

Everyone knows Jawas are troublemakers.

 

AND.. they travel in packs too. :p

 

Good point.

[illgot]

This may be true in MOST MMO's, but I do not think it is true in this one. I believe this is the latest dev position on macros and third party hardware:

 

You do realize that SWOTR was tied with Razer when released. How do you think the public would react if EA banned everyone using Razer gaming peripherals?

[shadowrouge]

That's exactly the thing. Hardware macros are still macros and they are still against the Terms of Service. Bioware has clearly stated that if you chain queue abilities to one button in any way or shape or form, be that with third-party software or expensive hardware, you are violating the ToS. Three activated skills (even skills not on the GCD) require either three button pushes, three clicks or a combination thereof. So pressing a button on your mouse or keyboard to activate three defensive cooldowns simultaneously is considered cheating. (Any action that gives you an advantage in violation of the ToS is cheating.)

 

But at the same time that Bioware is also marketing (and presumably taking cuts of the profit) these expensive hardware through a cross-promotion with Razer. People who invest hundreds of dollars into advanced computer accessories do so because they want the advantages they bring, not in the least the option to use macros to simplify their gaming. (And not because of all the shiny LED lights on them) And then they're told that they're violating the ToS if they're using said advanced features.

 

So it's a very awkward situation. On one hand they encourage you to spend piles of money on expensive mice and keyboards, but on the other they forbid you from using some of the features that distinguish said hardware from 10 buck junk mice.

 

Will they take action against hardware macros? Presumably, no. My friend has been using every concievable type of macro such paraphernalia can offer as well as mouse-over healing (he used to be a hardcore WoW player) since day one and he's as happy as ever. Bioware is yet to crack down on him for having played in violation of ToS for close to two years. They, presumably, never will.

 

But nevertheless the option remains. Macros on Razers, Nostromos and G-series keyboards are in violation of ToS. Can they detect ability chaining and mouse-over healing? Yes. Do they have the grounds for banning you for doing so? Yes. Will they actually do it? Not likely.

 

Very true but I am talking one button one ablity. I have the naga razor mouse and it puts my first tool bar at the touch of my thumb. Now I can fire 12 abilitys with out doing anything other than the use of my thumb. on my keyboard I have 18 keys all with in easy reach of three fingers.

 

The hardware you use with easy keyreplacement to me is far better than any macro I can use. Perhaps I miss used the term macro.

[Hyfy]

Here why combat macro are bad when i played wow i made a macro that basically turned a hunter into a 2 button spam marco. That macro could nuke some one in pvp before they could ever get there full rotation off because at the time the macro looked at what was on CD and did not cast it if i had a cool down up. IE why Blizzard changed how there combat macro worked at one point. So my macro was faster at a rotation then a manual button masher.

 

Then add that with how naga mouse which could spam those 2 button faster then humanly possible . Guess what happen to the people i shot they died it was not skill other then my ability to right a macro better then a key binder. This is why there are no combat macro people like me that can push a macro to the edge.

 

There you go this is the reason we have no macro system

 

Just had to point out the irony in your right vs write here. Just thought it was funny.

[Ratajack]

You do realize that SWOTR was tied with Razer when released. How do you think the public would react if EA banned everyone using Razer gaming peripherals?

 

You do realize that this has already been questioned AND answered by the devs. Their answer was that using those peripherals to bind a SINGLE ACTION to a single keystroke was fine, but "chaining" multiple actions to a single keystroke, even though the hardware allows this, is NOT acceptable, IS a violation of the TOS and IS subject to action up to and including banning.

[Hyfy]

No game that has had them has EVER had them as mandatory, EVER. Plenty of people get tops on the leader boards, tops dps meters, and overall win without them. all the time in games with macros. You can believe whatever you want, but the fact is they are ALWAYS optional.

 

What he means by it is it becomes another "gear check". It's quite obvious that is what he and others making the same argument are saying. So you can continue to ignore that but doesn't change the truth behind the argument.

[NoFishing]

You do realize that SWOTR was tied with Razer when released. How do you think the public would react if EA banned everyone using Razer gaming peripherals?

 

Using Razer peripherals is NOT against the ToS. I personally have a Naga Hex, with the extra buttons tied to key presses that activate a single game ability (or my PTT key). Using hardware marketed to "gamers" is NOT against the ToS. Using macros to activate multiple abilities with a single key/button press is.

 

Gamer =/= macro user.

[CommanderKeeva]

Very true but I am talking one button one ablity. I have the naga razor mouse and it puts my first tool bar at the touch of my thumb. Now I can fire 12 abilitys with out doing anything other than the use of my thumb. on my keyboard I have 18 keys all with in easy reach of three fingers.

 

The hardware you use with easy keyreplacement to me is far better than any macro I can use. Perhaps I miss used the term macro.

 

That is simply convenient key/button arrangement. As long as you're pressing or clicking a button before each ability, you're not using macros. That's completetly legal and not in violation of the ToS.

 

A macro would be if you pressed one button and it activated multiple abilities. For example my Gunslinger friend wants to use Smuggler's Luck, Illegal Mods, Boundless Ages Relic and Attack Adrenal at the first Charged Burst. That's four abilities off the GCD. So he set up a macro that every time he uses Charged Burst, the macro tries to activate Smuggler's Luck as well, so it doesn't require a separate keybind. Then he tied the rest of his cooldowns to Trick Shot, something he uses every few seconds. Each time he uses that ability, the macro tries to activate Illegal Mods, his relic and his adrenal at the same time. That's how you turn your clicky relic into a proc relic. This is against the ToS.

[CommanderKeeva]

You do realize that this has already been questioned AND answered by the devs. Their answer was that using those peripherals to bind a SINGLE ACTION to a single keystroke was fine, but "chaining" multiple actions to a single keystroke, even though the hardware allows this, is NOT acceptable, IS a violation of the TOS and IS subject to action up to and including banning.

 

Couldn't have said it better myself.

[Mazikeen]

/10chars Edited November 13, 2013 by Mazikeen

[Hyfy]

No, they don't. have you not realized a global cooldown exists? If anything macros make timing WORSE because if you're off by too much then the next command simply won't fire (due to the GCD) which either eliminates the macro chain or simply throws everything out of sync.

 

They don't give you a distinct benefit? Now you are just kidding yourself.

[Rafaman]

I'd like a macro to make getting back to this thread easier. Clicking on a link is just waaaay to inefficient.

 

/popcorn