The Ebon Hawk Guild Summit Meeting Notes

[Hawk_IV]

^ I like this response to it. If people are taking down commanders unflagged, we can heal them unflagged. Easy as that. But in the Guild Summit Meeting notes, it says this -

Conquest Review - When killing commanders please stay flagged, you are less likely to get trolled

And it implies that we'll troll anyone who kills commanders unflagged.

I was just stating that trolling is the wrong solution. I explained it too much though so I'm sure you just skipped it. My bad, lol

Edited September 14, 2014 by Hawk_IV

[llagana]

And it implies that we'll troll anyone who kills commanders unflagged.

I was just stating that trolling is the wrong solution. I explained it too much though so I'm sure you just skipped it. My bad, lol

 

Those are the minutes from the meeting as discussed. The trolling point was added because we cannot control the actions of the community, only give warning of potential actions that will occur.

 

I would not say that trolling is a 'solution' to this issue. Just a fair warning.

[Hawk_IV]

Those are the minutes from the meeting as discussed. The trolling point was added because we cannot control the actions of the community, only give warning of potential actions that will occur.

 

I would not say that trolling is a 'solution' to this issue. Just a fair warning.

 

Ok, makes sense. When i read the minutes I just got the wrong impression, heheheh. I was so disgruntled....

Thanks for clarifying Ilagana

"Sorry about the mess." -Han

Edited September 15, 2014 by Hawk_IV

[llagana]

Call for Agenda Items

Help us build the meeting agenda!

 

PvE

- Ebon Hawk Conquest Request Thread http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=762973

 

PvP

- Open world PVP based around conquests

-

 

RP

-

GSF

-

 

Other

- Has the Google document Guild Contact list helped? Spread the word to get more guilds listed. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1FbWR3RbtUG2dwIj8JYiGGoNJRky0yvvQdiIMo5a3RDk/edit#gid=1968909182

- Add more events to the Google Calendar for SW:TOR The Ebon Hawk community events

https://www.google.com/calendar/embed?src=5icnjg53ah9sdgdiliag85435k%40group.calendar.google.com&ctz=America/New_York

 

 

The next Community Guild Summit Meeting is this Sunday, October 5th, at 7:00 PM EST.

 

 

 

Can't attend? Have your voice heard!

Give us a common issue to discuss and how it may be addressed by the community (i.e. Problem & Potential Solution).

[Prisoner]

How about a discussion about proper queuing etiquette for warzones for the players who might be new to them?

 

(i.e why you're a douchebag if your PVE guild runs several premades with 1300 expertise players for the conquest points/relic, how that screws over the rest of the players on your team, and how easy it is to get at least 1900 expertise.)

 

Because seriously? It's getting out of control on the pub side lately.

Edited October 3, 2014 by Prisoner

[KeyboardNinja]

How about a discussion about proper queuing etiquette for warzones for the players who might be new to them?

 

(i.e why you're a douchebag if your PVE guild runs several premades with 1300 expertise players for the conquest points/relic, how that screws over the rest of the players on your team, and how easy it is to get at least 1900 expertise.)

 

Because seriously? It's getting out of control on the pub side lately.

 

As a member of a douchebag PvE guild that has done specifically that in the past, it's not always screwing the players on your team. Coordination >>> expertise. Aisthesis had a night a few weeks ago where we were running five simultaneous premades, often resulting in multiple concurrent double premade pops (which was fun). We were absolutely wrecking face even against some tough opponents (hit Guerrilla and Hex a few times), but mostly because people were obeying callouts from the more experienced PvPers, and people knew how the game was played. This despite the fact that most of the people in our premade batches had no expertise at all. I mean, we didn't win every match, but we more than held our own, and even the losses were both fun and well-fought.

 

I think your point would be better applied to PvE premades who don't listen to the more experienced teammates (who might be in the non-premade group of four), don't understand how to win a warzone, and most importantly don't care to know. I suspect there are a fair few of those, and they cause a heck of a lot more problems than the no-expertise phenomenon.

Edited October 3, 2014 by KeyboardNinja

[ML_DoubleTap]

How about a discussion about proper queuing etiquette for warzones for the players who might be new to them?

 

(i.e why you're a douchebag if your PVE guild runs several premades with 1300 expertise players for the conquest points/relic, how that screws over the rest of the players on your team, and how easy it is to get at least 1900 expertise.)

 

Because seriously? It's getting out of control on the pub side lately.

 

It really is. I generally get called a jerk for suggesting how to improve their expertise/bolstering.

[BigDumbViking]

How about a discussion about proper queuing etiquette for warzones for the players who might be new to them?

 

(i.e why you're a douchebag if your PVE guild runs several premades with 1300 expertise players for the conquest points/relic, how that screws over the rest of the players on your team, and how easy it is to get at least 1900 expertise.)

 

Because seriously? It's getting out of control on the pub side lately.

 

Ha, I was told by a 40k hp sage healer last night that, that was his pvp gear and always would be. At this point I'm so used to this type of stupidity, it doesn't even bother me that much...

[ML_DoubleTap]

As a member of a douchebag PvE guild that has done specifically that in the past, it's not always screwing the players on your team. Coordination >>> expertise. Aisthesis had a night a few weeks ago where we were running five simultaneous premades, often resulting in multiple concurrent double premade pops (which was fun). We were absolutely wrecking face even against some tough opponents (hit Guerrilla and Hex a few times), but mostly because people were obeying callouts from the more experienced PvPers, and people knew how the game was played. This despite the fact that most of the people in our premade batches had no expertise at all.

 

I think your point would be better applied to PvE premades who don't listen to the more experienced teammates (who might be in the non-premade group of four), don't understand how to win a warzone, and most importantly don't care to know. I suspect there are a fair few of those, and they cause a heck of a lot more problems than the no-expertise phenomenon.

 

Even if that's they case, why would you purposefully handicap yourself? That's akin to saying, well my healers are really good so I'll just stack endurance and power on my tank for NiM content. Once you're separated from those really good healers you'll be a liability to the new group you're joining.

[Prisoner]

As a member of a douchebag PvE guild that has done specifically that in the past, it's not always screwing the players on your team. Coordination >>> expertise.

 

First of all, this was not directed at Aisthesis specifically, especially since I haven't seen your teams in the queue at all lately.

 

Secondly, sure coordination beats gear, but the vast majority of the players I see running around in their shiny PVE Hero gear lately have neither. Then they get melted, wonder why that is, and spend the vast majority of the game crying about it uselessly on west. Now take that phenomenon, multiply it by eight to twelve people and then have those ********s queue in every night of the freaking week and you've got what's going in pubside pvp at the moment.

 

Look, I don't expect everyone to be running around in full expertise and augments, but it takes very, very little effort to get 1900 expertise and it helps quite a bit. Queuing into warzones with huge groups of uncoordinated, ungeared people all freaking night long? Not very cool. And I'm pretty sure if I showed up to an operation with four under geared friends and demand the team take us all along on a HM or NiM run, PVE Heroes would be amazed with our lack of respect and sheer audacity.

 

I think your point would be better applied to PvE premades who don't listen to the more experienced teammates (who might be in the non-premade group of four), don't understand how to win a warzone, and most importantly don't care to know. I suspect there are a fair few of those, and they cause a heck of a lot more problems than the no-expertise phenomenon.

 

Oh hey, I agree. But you have to start somewhere. And to be honest, most PVE heroes aren't willing to listen either about their gear or about strategy. No matter how nice you are about it, no matter how reasonable what you say is, 99% of the time, you get called an ******e for pointing it out. Things I have seen this week:

 

- Experienced players nicely asking undergeared players to guard a node instead of attacking mid, and getting nothing but **** back.

 

- Premades made up of such awesome compositions of three healers and a useless tank, none of which had more than 1300 expertise, who then wonder why their team can't kill anything.

 

- Asking people in private to please gear their guildies up before flooding the queue with their awful premades only to be told "Well we're not a PVP guild so we don't care. We're just there for the conquest points and we don't have time to grind gear."

 

These people are ******** in my sandbox and then getting mad when they're called on it. I'm probably one of the more tolerant veteran players when it comes towards noobs in the 55 queue. One or two players I can handle, and everyone needs to start somewhere when it comes to gearing up. Entire teams of bad, ungeared, uncoordinated players who refuse to listen to strategy or wear decent gear clogging up the queue? Yeah, my patience is seriously wearing thin.

 

This week Pub 55 has become almost unplayable because of certain PVE guilds and I'm starting to get really pissed. I know that gear will not magically make these teams better, but it's a start of ending the ****** entitlement mentality and lack of respect towards PVP players that a lot of PVE Heroes have when it comes to queuing into warzones, which is why I think it's worthy to talk about at the guild summit.

Edited October 3, 2014 by Prisoner

[Seyahat]

As a member of a douchebag PvE guild that has done specifically that in the past, it's not always screwing the players on your team. Coordination >>> expertise. Aisthesis had a night a few weeks ago where we were running five simultaneous premades, often resulting in multiple concurrent double premade pops (which was fun). We were absolutely wrecking face even against some tough opponents (hit Guerrilla and Hex a few times), but mostly because people were obeying callouts from the more experienced PvPers, and people knew how the game was played. This despite the fact that most of the people in our premade batches had no expertise at all. I mean, we didn't win every match, but we more than held our own, and even the losses were both fun and well-fought.

 

I think your point would be better applied to PvE premades who don't listen to the more experienced teammates (who might be in the non-premade group of four), don't understand how to win a warzone, and most importantly don't care to know. I suspect there are a fair few of those, and they cause a heck of a lot more problems than the no-expertise phenomenon.

 

While I think that solid pve players should learn how to gear effectively for pvp, I basically agree with this. I never ***** someone out for being undergeared. What pains me are the people who don't want to learn, won't ask, and won't do what is best for the team in order to win. That said, I do believe that *ranked* matches should expect a bare minimum of expertise.

[KeyboardNinja]

First of all, this was not directed at Aisthesis specifically, especially since I haven't seen your teams in the queue at all lately.

 

Didn't think it was. :-) We've been PvPing, but certainly not as much. Basically just the folks who PvP regularly, conquests or otherwise.

 

While I think that solid pve players should learn how to gear effectively for pvp, I basically agree with this. I never ***** someone out for being undergeared. What pains me are the people who don't want to learn, won't ask, and won't do what is best for the team in order to win. That said, I do believe that *ranked* matches should expect a bare minimum of expertise.

 

Yes and yes. Nothing is worse than being in a Huttball with people who are not only unaware of what they should be doing to win, but completely ambivalent about learning such. Even when you pull out a win due to oppositional derp, those matches still really suck.

Edited October 3, 2014 by KeyboardNinja

[superroo]

As a member of a douchebag PvE guild that has done specifically that in the past, it's not always screwing the players on your team. Coordination >>> expertise. Aisthesis had a night a few weeks ago where we were running five simultaneous premades, often resulting in multiple concurrent double premade pops (which was fun). We were absolutely wrecking face even against some tough opponents (hit Guerrilla and Hex a few times), but mostly because people were obeying callouts from the more experienced PvPers, and people knew how the game was played. This despite the fact that most of the people in our premade batches had no expertise at all. I mean, we didn't win every match, but we more than held our own, and even the losses were both fun and well-fought.

 

I think your point would be better applied to PvE premades who don't listen to the more experienced teammates (who might be in the non-premade group of four), don't understand how to win a warzone, and most importantly don't care to know. I suspect there are a fair few of those, and they cause a heck of a lot more problems than the no-expertise phenomenon.

 

You hit Guerilla who aren't really Guerilla anymore and Hex? LOL was it 8 of you vs 1 of them ? You guys couldn't "hit" water if you fell out of a boat. Get yourselves PvP gear or stick to the cantina.

[KeyboardNinja]

You hit Guerilla who aren't really Guerilla anymore and Hex? LOL was it 8 of you vs 1 of them ? You guys couldn't "hit" water if you fell out of a boat. Get yourselves PvP gear or stick to the cantina.

 

It was a four man Guerrilla group. Hex I think was only queuing with three that night. No question that their other half was pretty weak though. At no point did we run into both groups together. My point is simply that gear is a highly overrated advantage. If you take the best pvpers on the server (which we are not) and put them in 180s, they will still win handily.

Edited October 3, 2014 by KeyboardNinja

[GrandLordMenace]

Even if that's they case, why would you purposefully handicap yourself? That's akin to saying, well my healers are really good so I'll just stack endurance and power on my tank for NiM content. Once you're separated from those really good healers you'll be a liability to the new group you're joining.

 

Well the thing is Aisthesis as a whole doesn't que in a large group to PVP. Besides Jaberse, Fedara, me, Mcshake, Kyra/Kara/everythingthatsoundslikeKira, and the occasional Daharel or Tam no one really consistently PVPs in Aisthesis.

 

Also @Tam I don't think it's 100% fair to say that the members of our guild are exactly queing in full 180s, besides er... melly and he should stay in 180s simply because I like my Dispatch hitting him for 12k. More often than not they either have a mishmash of bolster gear, 180s, and PVP gear TBH.

[KeyboardNinja]

Even if that's they case, why would you purposefully handicap yourself? That's akin to saying, well my healers are really good so I'll just stack endurance and power on my tank for NiM content. Once you're separated from those really good healers you'll be a liability to the new group you're joining.

 

It was mostly that we were queuing either on alts which didn't have PvP gear (outside of Tam, most of my alts have nothing, or rather had nothing) and with people who don't normally PvP. So it's not really a question of gimping ourselves intentionally.

 

For the record, Tam is in mostly Brutalizer gear, so I know exactly how much gear affects performance in PvP. Given a choice, I would never go into a warzone wearing my Dread Master set, but I was still able to contribute positively even while I was gearing up.

 

Also, just pointing this out, but you get PvP gear by PvPing. Which means that you're going to run into people in warzones who are in varying stages of gearing, even if they PvPed extensively while leveling and saved commendations. The only way to avoid that is to legacy gear over from other characters who are already maxed and still PvPing.

Edited October 3, 2014 by KeyboardNinja

[ML_DoubleTap]

It was mostly that we were queuing either on alts which didn't have PvP gear (outside of Tam, most of my alts have nothing, or rather had nothing) and with people who don't normally PvP. So it's not really a question of gimping ourselves intentionally.

 

For the record, Tam is in mostly Brutalizer gear, so I know exactly how much gear affects performance in PvP. Given a choice, I would never go into a warzone wearing my Dread Master set, but I was still able to contribute positively even while I was gearing up.

 

Also, just pointing this out, but you get PvP gear by PvPing. Which means that you're going to run into people in warzones who are in varying stages of gearing, even if they PvPed extensively while leveling and saved commendations. The only way to avoid that is to legacy gear over from other characters who are already maxed and still PvPing.

 

You get nearly full expertise and bolstered stats in anything less than Arkanian. Personally I usually put together a set of campaign set bonus gear and level 54 crafted stuff in other slots on new PvP toons and replace as I go. They'll be more well rounded than full 186s. You end up around 1930 something expertise if I remember correctly because main/offhand don't bolster to full expertise. So those are the first pieces I replace to get to 2018 expertise with only two PvP pieces.

[KeyboardNinja]

You get nearly full expertise and bolstered stats in anything less than Arkanian. Personally I usually put together a set of campaign set bonus gear and level 54 crafted stuff in other slots on new PvP toons and replace as I go. They'll be more well rounded than full 186s. You end up around 1930 something expertise if I remember correctly because main/offhand don't bolster to full expertise. So those are the first pieces I replace to get to 2018 expertise with only two PvP pieces.

 

And if we were queuing more extensively, that's exactly what we would have done. It's also the advice I give to anyone who is just getting started in PvP at level 55 and wants to do it seriously. For the casual PvPer though who doesn't want to build a "stop gap" gear set, 180s are fine as long as you know what you're doing (note that bolster does compensate you somewhat for your lack of expertise; your abilities will hit MUCH harder pre-expertise buffs than in level 54 gear). Spending their time thinking about matchups and studying warzone dynamics will result in far more wins than spending time scrounging up random level 54 modifications.

Edited October 3, 2014 by KeyboardNinja

[Prisoner]

Look, my view is this. If PVE teams are going to be queueing premades en mass into PVP for the conquest points/relics that means that they're probably going to be queuing in a lot, at least for the week or until they get the relic. Which means the respectful thing to do is to get a set of basic blues or oricon gear so that their expertise is not in the *******. That's really not a lot to ask.

 

Should people be more receptive to tactical suggestions and learn how to play? Sure. But that's not nearly as concrete, is way more situational and complicated, takes a lot more time and experience to learn, and is a hell of harder to convince people to do. Really, the gear is just one step - but it's a step that at least shows a little bit of respect for the people they're queued in with. It also gives the noobs time to learn all of the things you want them to, because they don't get globaled and have time to process what the hell is going on.

 

And frankly, to get the conquest points, you don't even have to queue 55 if you don't feel like getting the gear. They can get the same amount of points queuing into little league where the gear issue is moot and derp is to be expected.

 

At any rate, considering how much discussion has already happened in this thread, it seems like this topic is worth some discussion at the Guild Summit Meeting, no? That's the whole reason I brought it up in the first place, lol.

Edited October 3, 2014 by Prisoner

[KeyboardNinja]

Look, my view is this. If PVE teams are going to be queueing premades en mass into PVP for the conquest points/relics that means that they're probably going to be queuing in a lot, at least for the week or until they get the relic. Which means the respectful thing to do is to get a set of basic blues or oricon gear so that their expertise is not in the *******. That's really not a lot to ask.

 

I'll agree on that. I don't really agree that it's completely disrespectful to not take this step, but there's no reason why you shouldn't if you're going to be queuing for more than an afternoon.

 

And frankly, to get the conquest points, you don't even have to queue 55 if you don't feel like getting the gear. They can get the same amount of points queuing into little league where the gear issue is moot and derp is to be expected.

 

WTB more lowbie alts. Madness is hilarious in sub-30 because of how broken bolster is.

 

At any rate, considering how much discussion has already happened in this thread, it seems like this topic is worth some discussion at the Guild Summit Meeting, no? That's the whole reason I brought it up in the first place, lol.

 

Fair enough. :-)

[Sindol]

Where as I agree with Tam that coordination is better than gear in general, it's a bit annoying hearing you say it as a bit of an -excuse- for silly behavior that any member of your guild could EASILY not do and it would take no time. Anyone in your guild in particular could manage an old campaign set, I refuse to believe differently. So it's quite silly for them to gimp their team regardless of how good their coordination is.

 

Because regardless of how coordinated you think you are, you're still screwing your team over if you are against another coordinated team because you're already at a disadvantage because you're wearing lame gear, basically because you were too lazy. After all, would you let someone do a HM or NIM raid with you if they weren't wearing proper gear? I doubt you would. It's the same concept.

 

Hold yourself and your peeps accountable. Don't wear scrubby PvE gear that doesn't get bolster in War Zones.

 

End of story. Discuss this if you want, but there's really nothing else to talk about. If you're going into PvP with PvE gear that doesn't get bolster, you deserve the rage that your teammates are most likely going to unleash on you.

[KeyboardNinja]

Where as I agree with Tam that coordination is better than gear in general, it's a bit annoying hearing you say it as a bit of an -excuse- for silly behavior that any member of your guild could EASILY not do and it would take no time. Anyone in your guild in particular could manage an old campaign set, I refuse to believe differently. So it's quite silly for them to gimp their team regardless of how good their coordination is.

 

Classic coms have a cap, just as with anything else. Anyone in guild could probably scrub up a Campaign set by sweeping through a few alts, but many of us already do that for alts on their way to 55. Crafting would be quicker, and certainly could be done in an afternoon or so.

 

Because regardless of how coordinated you think you are, you're still screwing your team over if you are against another coordinated team because you're already at a disadvantage because you're wearing lame gear, basically because you were too lazy. After all, would you let someone do a HM or NIM raid with you if they weren't wearing proper gear? I doubt you would. It's the same concept.

 

I would and I have. I've done HM DF/DP on my sniper in basically Dread Guard gear, took a Rage Marauder into NiM S&V (successfully) while they were wearing level 54 gear with a level 20-30 left hand side. I raided in pre-nerf Nightmare Mode for weeks as a sub on my sage in a dirty mixture of level 54, commendation 180 and PvP gear.

 

There are so few gear checks in this game it's hilarious. Gear makes things easier, but by and large most of those things are already possible if you know how to correctly compensate for your under-geared state. That goes for PvP as well as PvE. Also I'm not sure that Nightmare Mode is the best analogy for 8v8 regs.

 

End of story. Discuss this if you want, but there's really nothing else to talk about. If you're going into PvP with PvE gear that doesn't get bolster, you deserve the rage that your teammates are most likely going to unleash on you.

 

If I drag the team down, I deserve the rage of my teammates. There's a difference. When I can contribute and hold my own in PvE gear as well or better than your average scrubby full-Obroan queue hopper off fleet, I think I've earned a little amelioration of rage.

 

In practice, I find that when I have queued in PvE gear, people generally don't say anything about it until I start being a problem (melting instantly in mid; failing to survive long enough to delay a cap; doing zero damage ever; that sort of thing). In those cases, I think the rage is pretty justified, with or without the gear issues.

 

Anyway, we're pretty far off topic.

Edited October 3, 2014 by KeyboardNinja

[Sindol]

We -are- pretty far off-topic. Let me get this back on track for Adexi.

 

So, I can't attend the summit unfortunately, but some things I think the community could talk about/do are....

 

1.) Ranked PvP Players Roster (of sorts).

 

- I think it would be helpful for people looking to do Ranked PvP outside of solo ranked to have a list of players that they can contact or touch base with about forming a Ranked PvP team. I say this because not everyone wants to be exclusive to a Ranked PvP guild, but they might want to participate in Ranked PvP still. So perhaps they could reach out to these people and form a Ranked "Team" rather tan a Ranked "Team" within a Ranked PvP Guild. I would personally like to see who all is interested in Ranked PvP on this server, though I may not be that serious about Ranked PvP anymore, I'm still curious to see if there are people here who still are and if so, who and how many? This might also help out with organizing Ranked PvP in the future outside of posting random nights where people will be in queue for solo rated or team rated PvP.

 

2.) An RP Community poll of sorts.

 

- I think it would be cool to rally up the RP community via a community poll. I've seen recently talk about Fleetina RP and the heavy onset of social RP that players are locked into because they're not in a guild. My question, though, is how many people that spend most of their time randomly engaging in social RP would be available to dedicate the time to progression style RP via story lines and plots. There are great members in our community that are capable of producing story-rich plots and arcs for characters to immerse themselves into, but it often becomes a headache because one week everyone is in attendance and the next week you're one or two people short and can't really proceed without them. So it's difficult to want to do things like this with people outside of your circle of trust. Perhaps a list of people looking for something beyond social RP would be good too?

 

Idk, those are just a couple of things you might be able to discuss.

 

<3

 

-Sin

[wadecounty]

While on the subject of Ranked, here's a view from someone who's done quite a bit of it, but isn't necessarily in a pure PvP guild.

 

My biggest problem with the way it is now, is the pool of players is so incredibly small, that you basically end up facing the same 8-10 people every. single. time. And while that might mean a win, a loss, or a close game, you pretty much know which of those its going to be before the match even starts. So it ends up feeling more like preseason scrimmages than anything else, because you know you're not really training to get better, you're just getting practice against the only team(s) you're ever going to face.

 

Additionally, being in a guild that isn't purely about PvP, we don't really seek out ranked often (its difficult to find others who want to queue and it can interfere with raids), but those same 8-10 players do seek us out. So often times we end up doing it just because they ask, and fielding a less than optimal team (I don't mean in terms of comp, which is always variable, but in terms of players, which is the biggest difference). Subsequently, my record is usually sub .500, but I don't think that accurately reflects where we are in terms of the other PvPer's on the server, rather, just where we are amongst the I guess, maybe 20 total? of people that will even do group ranked PvP. All in all, for myself, its just not a whole lot of fun.

 

Long story short, and I think everyone can agree with this, either more people have to queue, or ranked will die, as it always does.

[Sindol]

Errrr, did the summit go down? Can a brother get some cliff notes?