Galactic Starfighter....suggestions to give it wider appeal, short and long term

[CrazyOldMystic]

yeah too complicated for today´s console kiddies. Can you even imagine handing them over a full HOTAS?

Glad they stick to their Xboxy toy controllers and leave the real hardware to adults

 

I could not have said it better myself. I do hope they put the Joystick in. The era has only passed for the child and his controller. For us old gamers Joystick is the only way to go for something like this.

[MajikMyst]

I am pretty sure someone here on forums claimed he was able to use some third-party software to map keyboard keys to xbox controller and play swtor on a big screen. So basically, pressing LB+A on controller equaled to for example pressing 5 on keyboard, and executing ability located in quickslot 5.

I think there has to be some sort of software that could do this for joysticks as well.

 

But see.. That isn't truly porting the game for use with a controller now is it?? People can do a lot of things with 3rd party stuff.. That doesn't mean it is right or they should.. I would prefer not to rely on some 3rd party software to play my game.. That of course is just my view on the issue.. I have not had the best of luck when it comes to 3rd party addons for games..

[MajikMyst]

Hmm... its been awhile but there was an effort to play this game on an xbox controller and it worked. I'll try to find the relevant info. Personally given all the key bindings I need I couldn't and wouldn't ever pursue that option. However, for a limited space flight scenario, I would consider it.

 

Let me check on the link and get back to you.

 

Edit: Here is the link. http://swtorpeeps.blogspot.com/2011/12/playing-mmo-with-controller-are-you.html

 

There is a lot of useful info here and if you are inclined to use a controller. I don't see why it wouldn't work for space combat. In fact... it may be a better option than a Joystick IMO.

 

The sad thing is, I went to your link and there is no usefull info.. It doesn't appear to explain how he is doing it and and how he is setting up his bindings.. There is a nice video of him playing some PVP.. I am not even sure if what I see in the video is him using a controller or just a mouse and keyboard.. Sorry.. I don't trust everything I read or see just because it is on the internet.. But as I said.. No real information is to be found on the link you provided.. I am sorry he has back problems though..

 

In either case.. I was speaking to how difficult it would be to port the game to a controller.. Not using some 3rd person work around.. So my post was 100% accurate.. The game does not support the use of a controller.. That doesn't mean people can't do it..

Edited October 26, 2013 by MajikMyst

[MajikMyst]

What you probably don't realize is that because of today's incredible advances in game design, developing dumb fighters to shoot at your craft, ala X-wing style, is actually harder in some cases and its a waste of time in most.

 

If they can handle countless mobs and bosses with detailed mechanics and spells.. I am sure they can handle a mob that flies a ship does a few maneuvers and takes turns shooting missles and lasers at you.. You ever go against a Tie Advanced in XWA?? I hated those ships.. This is not something hard.. The hardest thing for them would be rendering the cockpit view and the ability to turn our heads to see our left, right, and behind us..

 

The tools require a level of knowledge and workmanship and often time good convincing AI in today's graphically realistic worlds is very difficult. I am sure Bioware has a skilled staff, but they are right. To develop fully fleshed out AI in 3d space is NOT easy. It would take several months if not a year to even get anything ready for prototype.

 

Ok.. We are talking about a pilot for a basic star fighter.. We are not programming Data or Hal.. The graphics are the easy party.. Their graphics designers are top notch.. Their environments are awesome.. Ever play any of the Descent games?? An AI in 3D space is as old as the hills.. If they can't do that easily then they may as well throw in the towel.. Seriously dude.. We aren't talking about brain surgeon here.. Compared to what they have already done.. This should be pretty basic..

 

Games like X-wing and tie fighter were impressive because they were good, for their time. If you put the same AI from those games in today's engine (not that you can) you would sit there and say "why are these enemies so dumb"? Your expectations have risen, believe it or not.

 

Ok.. Seriously.. Where did you get this idea that programming a pilot AI would be all that difficult?? To be honest they can use the existing AI that they use now for mobs.. Instead of giving it spells and skills to use, give it maneuvers.. It still has to react to us.. Which they do.. It is just an issue of changing the variable.. I just don't think you understand what has to be done.. They can either modify one of the current AI that are used to control mobs.. Or you can create an entire new one but still based on the same structure.. This isn't hard nor is it a waste of time.. This is very doable..

Edited October 26, 2013 by MajikMyst

[Knorlac]

I agree that creating an AI for PvE spaceflight wouldn't be prohibitively hard, especially in a StarWars/space only game. It would be a lot harder if a real flight model as in atmospheric flight was needed or a flightmodel based on newtonian spaceflight like we saw in I-war for example.

 

The hard part would be scripting enticing encounters for PvE FPs or OPs as just pitting you against a handfull of AI piloted fighters wouldn't quite cut it. I'd be thrilled to see it happen somewhere down the line but for the time being I'm happy with what we're getting with GSF.

[MikdiBoken]

An elegant control, for a more civilised age...

[thecoffeecup]

But PvE players already have their own space game, they don't need to corrupt our PvP space game!

We have an on-rails minigame. Yay!

 

The disappointment for me comes from seeing all those sub dollars spent on a PvP only minigame expansion, while the actual core game (including its PvP component) still suffers from bugs and a lack of balance. And what about expanding the existing storylines?

 

I normally don't complain much about the game, but I just can't seem to find the enthusiasm for this space project. I just don't see the point.

[LordArtemis]

It's a fair point I think. Some folks are not going to like this expansion, others are not going to care either way, still others will like or love it.

 

This is something that folks have been asking for for a while. Just as an aside, BF2 was the number one choice in the Beta poll by a wide margin.

[LordArtemis]

I could not have said it better myself. I do hope they put the Joystick in. The era has only passed for the child and his controller. For us old gamers Joystick is the only way to go for something like this.

 

I should have probably called it a gamepad.

[Vandicus]

Ok.. Seriously.. Where did you get this idea that programming a pilot AI would be all that difficult?? To be honest they can use the existing AI that they use now for mobs.. Instead of giving it spells and skills to use, give it maneuvers.. It still has to react to us.. Which they do.. It is just an issue of changing the variable.. I just don't think you understand what has to be done.. They can either modify one of the current AI that are used to control mobs.. Or you can create an entire new one but still based on the same structure.. This isn't hard nor is it a waste of time.. This is very doable..

 

As technology progresses the variety of options a player has to dispose of an enemy increases, allowing us to trivialize what previously would have been formidable AI. I'll use the Total War series as an example. The AI in the total war series has always been mediocre, but because of limitations on player activities due to a lack of tactics and unit choice, they came off as relatively balanced in most of the series(especially the much lauded Shogun 2, which had horrendously bad AI). Rome 2 Total War made major improvements to the AI(far better than any of the previous games by a long shot), but even more dramatically increased the amount of ways in which players could deal with their opponents. Consequently there are many complaints of the AI being far too easy to deal with.

 

(*Note: Previous total wars also had to rely on gimmicks which caused virtually everyone to go to war with the player over time, or all at once, in order to maintain a semblance of difficulty, Rome 2 abandoned this crutch)

[spectreclees]

Ok, many posts exist for this already, but I wanted to bring some focus to what I feel MIGHT be some issues moving forward.

 

Now, first, this is extremely early, so this could be something that is already planned, or the feature could be so good it will not matter. I concede both points.

 

But I wanted to comment on what I see are common themes and concerns around the net about the new feature, and perhaps list them out, and see if others would like to do the same.

 

Here is my list of things I would like Bioware to consider, short and long term.

 

1) Cockpit view and Joystick control. The reason I feel both are important is that it is a common staple of the kind of games that this feature seems to have some kinship with at first glance, and I think this is what many folks would like to see.

 

I contend that cockpit view does not have to be fancy...something without moving arms, just the cockpit window and dash would probably work. Just a zoom in to first person view would apply. Also, if joystick option can't be implemented, perhaps some kind of interface to assign keys to a joystick would work, or at least joystick capability would be appreciated IMO.

 

2) Eventual implementation of capital ship combat, on foot combat to expand this feature into a BF2 like PVP feature. One of the most appealing features of BF2, IMO, was the ability to transition out of your fighter into a hanger, and then fight on foot. You could man a turret, or take out objectives in the ship/defend the ship.

 

I would suggest low poly single appearance models for players, and a single bar for abilities, using the same interface as the fighter. The might allow something like this to be added.

 

To clarify on this a bit, that means a completely different single appearance model for pubs and imps. The model would have a simple appearance, be low on polys...so essentially everyone on one side that had the same class would look the same. Your class would only apply to the basic appearance and the weapon you used.

 

3) Eventual implementation of PVE features. Would be nice to see some kind of PVE element come down the road that uses this setup, even if it is just dailies or some kind of single mission workup. Obviously this would take a huge amount of work, considering AI requirements and the like. But perhaps if the feature proves popular it might be worth it to do so down the road.

 

 

 

As a final comment, I think second suggestion could open the door for another option for on foot PVP. If the on foot suggestion is ever implemented and it proves popular it could open the door to a PVP alternative that would be far more appealing than what is in place at present.

 

Thank you for your time, and I look forward to the lists from others.

 

Something this big is only going to make it into a separate game. I'm expecting #1 to be added in Battlefront 3. I can't see the capitol ship combat being added but, the cockpit and of course the PvE are possibilities.

[RandomXChance]

If they can handle countless mobs and bosses with detailed mechanics and spells.. I am sure they can handle a mob that flies a ship does a few maneuvers and takes turns shooting missles and lasers at you.. You ever go against a Tie Advanced in XWA?? I hated those ships.. This is not something hard.. The hardest thing for them would be rendering the cockpit view and the ability to turn our heads to see our left, right, and behind us..

 

 

 

Ok.. We are talking about a pilot for a basic star fighter.. We are not programming Data or Hal.. The graphics are the easy party.. Their graphics designers are top notch.. Their environments are awesome.. Ever play any of the Descent games?? An AI in 3D space is as old as the hills.. If they can't do that easily then they may as well throw in the towel.. Seriously dude.. We aren't talking about brain surgeon here.. Compared to what they have already done.. This should be pretty basic..

 

 

 

Ok.. Seriously.. Where did you get this idea that programming a pilot AI would be all that difficult?? To be honest they can use the existing AI that they use now for mobs.. Instead of giving it spells and skills to use, give it maneuvers.. It still has to react to us.. Which they do.. It is just an issue of changing the variable.. I just don't think you understand what has to be done.. They can either modify one of the current AI that are used to control mobs.. Or you can create an entire new one but still based on the same structure.. This isn't hard nor is it a waste of time.. This is very doable..

 

Ok, so please explain why games with amazing graphics and abysmal AI are so common? Most modern shooters come nowhere close to matching the AI of the soldiers in Half Life 1, a game released in 1998.

 

Making computer controlled enemies IS the hard part of making a game. More processing power gives you more to work with, but having developers with the intelligence and creativity to pull it off is not so abundant.

 

The space fighter element in SWTOR is really just a mini-game. While i would love to see what people are asking, it really involves making a whole separate game (with all the involved costs).

 

Really no joystick required. Ever played Freelancer?

[LordArtemis]

I feel that joystick ability is very important...VERY IMPORTANT...but naturally that is just my feeling. Cockpit view as well, perhaps not as important but still up there.

 

Other BF2 features can wait (but should most definitely be added shortly), PVE can wait IMO, but not joystick control. That will determine, IMO, the overall appeal, whether it appeals to a small group or large group.

[LordArtemis]

Something this big is only going to make it into a separate game. I'm expecting #1 to be added in Battlefront 3. I can't see the capitol ship combat being added but, the cockpit and of course the PvE are possibilities.

 

I don't really agree. The current GS build, what we know about it, is already a separate game based on the mechanic revealed, much like the current space feature I would argue.

 

I think, over time, the full potential of this feature could be realized.

[Sportiva]

Can anyone think of a single gameplay system that has received a radical change to it since launch? I can't.

 

The closest change along those lines, IMO, is adaptive armor. At first, BW was insistent on making each class / spec look distinctive. The change to adaptive armor is about the only 180 change of mind I can think of.

 

Bottom-line, I'm sure that there will be tweaks to GS overtime, but by-in-large what BW has planned for GS is what we will be given.

[LordArtemis]

Can anyone think of a single gameplay system that has received a radical change to it since launch? I can't.

 

The closest change along those lines, IMO, is adaptive armor. At first, BW was insistent on making each class / spec look distinctive. The change to adaptive armor is about the only 180 change of mind I can think of.

 

Bottom-line, I'm sure that there will be tweaks to GS overtime, but by-in-large what BW has planned for GS is what we will be given.

 

I don't know...in this case I think it might be a bit deeper than that...time combined with cost and the unknowns as far as the features appeal (the prior space combat feature was not well received IMO and they may be cautious).

 

In this particular case, if it is set up properly and turns out to be popular we could see upgrades in the future to widen it's appeal.

[Vandicus]

Can anyone think of a single gameplay system that has received a radical change to it since launch? I can't.

 

The closest change along those lines, IMO, is adaptive armor. At first, BW was insistent on making each class / spec look distinctive. The change to adaptive armor is about the only 180 change of mind I can think of.

 

Bottom-line, I'm sure that there will be tweaks to GS overtime, but by-in-large what BW has planned for GS is what we will be given.

 

Legacy. From meaningless bar to what it is today(hard to find words to describe it).

[LordArtemis]

Legacy. From meaningless bar to what it is today(hard to find words to describe it).

 

Heh. Good point.

[Sportiva]

Legacy. From meaningless bar to what it is today(hard to find words to describe it).

 

Not really what I'm talking about. At launch the Legacy system wasn't even implemented other than Legacy name IIRC. I think the Legacy is/was implemented as they originally planned.

 

The type of example I'm thinking of is weapon restrictions ... there are a lot of calls to change the appearance of weapons ... for example Commandos or BH's wanting to use blaster rifles instead of their assault cannons / pistols ... regardless of it being cosmetic, BW refuses to move on it.

[LordArtemis]

Not really what I'm talking about. At launch the Legacy system wasn't even implemented other than Legacy name IIRC. I think the Legacy is/was implemented as they originally planned.

 

The type of example I'm thinking of is weapon restrictions ... there are a lot of calls to change the appearance of weapons ... for example Commandos or BH's wanting to use blaster rifles instead of their assault cannons / pistols ... regardless of it being cosmetic, BW refuses to move on it.

 

I see your point, but I'm not sure that could stand as a reputable reason as to why it is unlikely they would improve on GS if it proves to be popular.

[aeterno]

Joysticks&cockpit view for wider appeal? They're doing 3rd person mouse control precisely because of wider appeal lol.

[xOxDarkyxOx]

Re-skin starwars battlefront 2 and add it in!

[Lord_Ravenhurst]

Re-skin starwars battlefront 2 and add it in!

 

Add the original X-Wing to an Arcade machine in the Nar Shadda casino

[LordArtemis]

Joysticks&cockpit view for wider appeal? They're doing 3rd person mouse control precisely because of wider appeal lol.

 

Is that an opinion or did you see some kind of statement to this?

[Trentest]

Seems fairly obvious this isn't a flight sim, but more of an arcade-y fast paced flyer. Still fun... but seriously doubt joystick and cockpit view will give a player any advantage in that case. Only disadvantages.