AP/Tactics PT/Vangs are fine but...

[Stavroz]

I'm referring to your team. Goes or w/e played AP Tank, Also wasn't that don't panics imp team with a elite war hero rage jugg?

 

Yea i am not sure if Goes played AP tank. He never has when i have been there. When we played you guys and the other MVP team with Purage,Jaryx,Wudlol and Kand he was in HE cell and i was tanking.

 

Second point:

First team was against DP's repub team.

It was Tara, Cesc, antipode and Thessia (i think the stream is a little unclear)

DP lost 2-1

Second games was same team DP on their Repub toons.

DP lost 2-1 again

They then played Waka, Gurdarz, Brox(?) and not sure who the healer isi(?) again stream is hard to tell 100% and won 2-0.

Then they played DP for the third time on DP's imp toons. It was yea Aurawell? on his 28hp jug like you say, Taratech, Saggin and cant read the healer too good.

again DP lost 2-1.

 

All games were super close.

 

Then Today we got raped by DP with Wrucks, Tara, Ant and Mlke but we puged our 2nd DPS (paz on her shadow from Rats of Tubruk) and I tanked we did not play Hybrid tank Vang. The same team you guys played today also.

 

 

Stream of the first games are here.

http://www.twitch.tv/bobcow32/b/466716023

 

 

Also i was watched Bodies' stream and Scold's stream earlier today (last night for you) and teams that used to be competitive with you guys pre 2.4 (Especialy the DP's team with Wrucks,Ant,Tara,mlke) and you guys went through them like they were almost PUGS.

 

So basically you guys gained that much personal skill in the space of a 5 hour maintenance between 2.3 and 2.4?

If that's true that is some truly epic improvement in team and player skill.

Edited October 3, 2013 by Stavroz

[Treblt]

Yea i am not sure if Goes played AP tank. He never has when i have been there. When we played you guys and the other MVP team with Purage,Jaryx,Wudlol and Kand he was in HE cell and i was tanking.

 

Second point:

First team was against DP's repub team.

It was Tara, Cesc, antipode and Thessia (i think the stream is a little unclear)

DP lost 2-1

Second games was same team DP on their Repub toons.

DP lost 2-1 again

They then played Waka, Gurdarz, Brox(?) and not sure who the healer isi(?) again stream is hard to tell 100% and won 2-0.

Then they played DP for the third time on DP's imp toons. It was yea Aurawell? on his 28hp jug like you say, Taratech, Saggin and cant read the healer too good.

again DP lost 2-1.

 

All games were super close.

 

Then Today we got raped by DP with Wrucks, Tara, Ant and Mlke but we puged our 2nd DPS (paz on her shadow from Rats of Tubruk) and I tanked we did not play Hybrid tank Vang. The same team you guys played today also.

 

 

Stream of the first games are here.

http://www.twitch.tv/bobcow32/b/466716023

 

 

Also i was watched Bodies' stream and Scold's stream earlier today (last night for you) and teams that used to be competitive with you guys pre 2.4 (Especialy the DP's team with Wrucks,Ant,Tara,mlke) and you guys went through them like they were almost PUGS.

 

So basically you guys gained that much personal skill in the space of a 5 hour maintenance between 2.3 and 2.4?

If that's true that is some truly epic improvement in team and player skill.

 

You forgot to mention that they were running cesc on sent, tarawar on sage, antipode sage healing and wrucks tanking.

Thats a sick way to win

[cannibalcory]

Also i was watched Bodies' stream and Scold's stream earlier today (last night for you) and teams that used to be competitive with you guys pre 2.4 (Especialy the DP's team with Wrucks,Ant,Tara,mlke) and you guys went through them like they were almost PUGS.

 

So basically you guys gained that much personal skill in the space of a 5 hour maintenance between 2.3 and 2.4?

If that's true that is some truly epic improvement in team and player skill.

 

Not so much personal skill improvement. More along the lines of Scold's team doesn't need to carry four other players to victory. So no, it's not just because of an AP PT in tank stance. Go ahead and mirror the comp, we don't mind.

[Laithrup]

l o l

[DarthOvertone]

I can't wait till my PT Tank is OP! (just 7 more pieces of gear to go)

 

*rubs hands*

Edited October 3, 2013 by DarthOvertone

[Morde_]

Not so much personal skill improvement. More along the lines of Scold's team doesn't need to carry four other players to victory. So no, it's not just because of an AP PT in tank stance. Go ahead and mirror the comp, we don't mind.

 

pew pew pew pew

Edited October 3, 2013 by Morde_

[Zunayson]

If this hybrid is OP it is a glaring example of tank stance being OP or HEGC being underpowered. if HEGC were to just be put in line with tank stance, then the huge sacrifice of DPS from going tank stance would balance the huge defense increase from going tank stance.

 

 

In other words, if tank stance gives such huge bonuses, we need to do the same for HEGC. Make it a gigantic bonus.

[Luckeyduckey]

Its really, seems cryin' and whinin baddies on forums ruined the game.

 

Crying about self-healing watchman/annihilation - get SMASH maras as result.

Crying about operatives dps - get unkillable operatives HEALERS as result.

Crying about pyro dps powertechs - get hybrid TANKS as result.

 

So keep crying and whining. You make game only worse every time when you just onen your mouth on forum.

 

Very well said.

[Stavroz]

You forgot to mention that they were running cesc on sent, tarawar on sage, antipode sage healing and wrucks tanking.

Thats a sick way to win

 

I did not forget to mention anything.

We did do not choose what our opponent decide to put up as a composition. Also we are debating about class spec/balance and what OP and whats not.

So you are saying class balance does matter now? Isn't that my point??

 

Not so much personal skill improvement. More along the lines of Scold's team doesn't need to carry four other players to victory. So no, it's not just because of an AP PT in tank stance. Go ahead and mirror the comp, we don't mind.

 

Yes we did mirror the comp. And we won 3 games against DP. And that's my point. DP are are better team and we managed to take 3 games off them in a row mostly b/c of the class comp.

 

You all seem to be getting your knickers in a knot thinking that i am a saying you are only winning b/c of One AP/PT tank.

 

Player skill and team skill/coordination > all i agree 100%.

But all things equal and sometimes even when one team is a bit more skilled then the other team the the team composition and class balance will tip the scales. That's all i am saying.

[rlamela]

pew pew pew pew

 

But aren't you still carrying 3 people to victory Scold No one in this game has as good of a backpack as you. I'm willing to bet you could win 90% of your matches with 2 pug DPS Operatives and a Pug DPS Sage. Not an insult to any of your teammates, you are just a beast.

[Treblt]

I did not forget to mention anything.

We did do not choose what our opponent decide to put up as a composition. Also we are debating about class spec/balance and what OP and whats not.

So you are saying class balance does matter now? Isn't that my point??

 

 

 

Yes we did mirror the comp. And we won 3 games against DP. And that's my point. DP are are better team and we managed to take 3 games off them in a row mostly b/c of the class comp.

 

You all seem to be getting your knickers in a knot thinking that i am a saying you are only winning b/c of One AP/PT tank.

 

Player skill and team skill/coordination > all i agree 100%.

But all things equal and sometimes even when one team is a bit more skilled then the other team the the team composition and class balance will tip the scales. That's all i am saying.

 

no I'm saying that if you want to mirror that comp against Don't Panics main team, they're going to rape you something awful. Just being honest.

If you want to play it against them when they have a sage healer and sage DPS, well ****, I've made some teams with acidropper that could take a win off that because sage healers are so weak.

[Stavroz]

no I'm saying that if you want to mirror that comp against Don't Panics main team, they're going to rape you something awful. Just being honest.

If you want to play it against them when they have a sage healer and sage DPS, well ****, I've made some teams with acidropper that could take a win off that because sage healers are so weak.

 

Fair enough I acknowledge that DP is a stronger team. I don't think I ever said otherwise. In fact i even said I thought those games would not play out the same way if we did not run that comp.

 

I am not sure if it was you in Bob's stream the other night after we played you guys a couple times where Ogi/Goes complained about your composition and i said that your guys were simply better and it did not really matter that you ran that comp b/c we also got beaten by Purerage's team with Wurdlol, Jaryx and Kand.

Although that game was far more competitive with their more "traditional" setup.

[Treblt]

You're right, VG tanks are so OP!

See about 15-16 or so minutes in when Im busy ****** the VG tank, because its still squishy and easy to tunnel as carnage, leth, other classes like that.

http://www.twitch.tv/bobcow32/b/467247852

I do agree that the VG tank is the BiS tank because cleave is so strong in this particular patch.

 

Guardian tank is hugely more CC based in its pressure, which also means that its a more coordinated type of CC when you run it with. It encourages 3 warr/1 operative comps to give you maximum insta aoe. Its also technically squishier against certain comps than a VG is. This is called a tradeoff. You just have to work around it. Guardian tanks are better in some ways, VG tanks are better in other ways. When one tank is better in EVERY way, then its OP.

Edited October 4, 2013 by Treblt

[Stavroz]

You're right, VG tanks are so OP!

See about 15-16 or so minutes in when Im busy ****** the VG tank, because its still squishy and easy to tunnel as carnage, leth, other classes like that.

http://www.twitch.tv/bobcow32/b/467247852

I do agree that the VG tank is the BiS tank because cleave is so strong in this particular patch.

 

Guardian tank is hugely more CC based in its pressure, which also means that its a more coordinated type of CC when you run it with. It encourages 3 warr/1 operative comps to give you maximum insta aoe. Its also technically squishier against certain comps than a VG is. This is called a tradeoff. You just have to work around it. Guardian tanks are better in some ways, VG tanks are better in other ways. When one tank is better in EVERY way, then its OP.

 

What about the shadow tank??

 

Also Milke on his Op

Wrucks on Timemuffin (PT)

Taratech and

and who is that sniper?

 

is that a real DP team?

Edited October 4, 2013 by Stavroz

[Theagg]

You realize that smash has a innate 30% armor penetration. Sniper's MM tree has base armor pen on ambush, plus a armor pen offensive cooldown plus a flat armor debuff. Commandos have a armor pen stance plus a armor debuff. Combat has a 100% armor pen skill.

 

Armor is crap, stop pretenting it means anything. Also jug tanks are within 1% on armor to vanguards with only 6 points into their tank tree

 

Of course I realise that but guess what, 30% off a larger number is most likely going to leave you better off than 30% off a smaller number.

 

Example, take a base armor value of 600. Debuff that by 30% and you reduce the armor value to 420.

 

Now, pop Ion Cell and buff that base value by 60%. New armor value is 960.

 

Debuff that by 30% and you still have 672. Better than the base armor. So, totally worth it.

 

Never mind the fact there are numerous times during an engagement when armor may have no existing debuff on it. At those times armor still counts against 50% of all damage types.

[anwg]

what you say about lol smash and soresu isnt really true. did you ever go shii form, hit enrage, then went to soresu? the shockwave buffs remain, and you still get the automatic crits. its tricky to play, but it works. and you can change by the fly. you cant do that as a PT.

 

No jug will do that because as soon as you are out of soresu guard drops.

[Zoom_VI]

Of course I realise that but guess what, 30% off a larger number is most likely going to leave you better off than 30% off a smaller number.

 

Example, take a base armor value of 600. Debuff that by 30% and you reduce the armor value to 420.

 

Now, pop Ion Cell and buff that base value by 60%. New armor value is 960.

 

Debuff that by 30% and you still have 672. Better than the base armor. So, totally worth it.

 

Never mind the fact there are numerous times during an engagement when armor may have no existing debuff on it. At those times armor still counts against 50% of all damage types.

 

But the actual amount being mitigated in the end is marginal.

It's not that heavy armor is nothing it is that the armor mechanic itself is borked

 

The debs have already admitted that armor is no where as effective as they thought, that armor is the reason VG only have one true DcD on a 2 minute cool down.

 

Those weaknesses plus the weaknesses of shield are why the hybrid is the arena vg tank spec. Becuase the benefits of the flat damage absorb plus the flat AoE mitigation and stunned mitigation are far more practice against most comps, than straight tank is.

 

Fix 36 pt tank and the hybrid will go away

[Treblt]

What about the shadow tank??

 

Also Milke on his Op

Wrucks on Timemuffin (PT)

Taratech and

and who is that sniper?

 

is that a real DP team?

 

Its a bunch of undergeared alts, and neither jonie or I even know for sure who the sniper is. I think they're just messing around with those toons tbh

[evilxpoptart]

Can do 95% of the damage?? Where people get there information I am not sure. For one you cant get the auto crit for HIB. Secoundly if you have actually played this spec you would know that you have severe ammo issues to put out sustained DPS. Third the amount of DR you get from ion cell is marginal.

 

The only reason I used/use this spec is to be able to DPS down a target thats on my guard. As going full VG tank was/is still pointless.

 

 

I have used this spec for the last year. I am not sure why people are finally now QQing when there are other class balance issues that are far more concerning. Or perhaps people remember getting 3 shotted by a VG/PT in a WZ and now hold a grudge pre 2.0.

[Zunayson]

Can do 95% of the damage?? Where people get there information I am not sure. For one you cant get the auto crit for HIB. Secoundly if you have actually played this spec you would know that you have severe ammo issues to put out sustained DPS. Third the amount of DR you get from ion cell is marginal.

 

The only reason I used/use this spec is to be able to DPS down a target thats on my guard. As going full VG tank was/is still pointless.

 

 

I have used this spec for the last year. I am not sure why people are finally now QQing when there are other class balance issues that are far more concerning. Or perhaps people remember getting 3 shotted by a VG/PT in a WZ and now hold a grudge pre 2.0.

 

the reason is because people whine about anything and everything, and then cite "evidence" that usually is:

 

• irrelevant
  
• not a contributor to the problem
  
• was in the game for a long time before massive qq
  

 

 

Examples:

• Operative 30% heal has been in the game since launch
  
• smash has done the same damage (within minor 10% buffs or nerfs) since launch. The only thing that changed was its effective CD, other abilities, surge, relics, adrenals, etc.
  
• Pyro again, has been more or less the same since launch, with the exception of minor tweaks, a range reduction, and a rebalancing of PPA
  
• Snipers have had few changes pre-2.0 and people were still whining.
  

 

In reality, people are mad and classes "seem" more powerful due to meta game issues. Each example below corresponds to its respective one above:

 

• In 1.2, non op heals were nerfed, and concealment was nerfed. Resulting with lots of oppie rerolls, resulting in whining.
  
• Lots of burst prompted a surge nerf around 1.1, but smash ensued. Minor CD nerfs (force alacrity) cause smashers to run away. They were back in 1.6, and smash was doing the same damage. Now, if smash kills you in 5 seconds, they only have time for one smash, which by the way, have been no more powerful since launch. In reality, they're mad that multiple smashies are now ganging up on them and tearing them to shreds.
  
• Pyro was hit or miss RNG god spec, got rebalanced to be less RNG dependent with added internal CD to PPA. Still blew people up. Whining has been more or less constant ever since 2.0 hit, and then whining ensued for opposite reasons.
  
• With the abundance of melee deeps (smash, pyro, decep), a squishy, proactively defending class like a sniper (that is, not face tanking but relies on CC /positioning) seems powerful since it obliterates any melee team.
  

 

QQ claims to be in justice of giving out nerf to overpowered classes, but is really just venting because pvp'ers are really really mad a lot.

Edited October 4, 2013 by Zunayson

[Gomex]

What about the shadow tank??

 

Also Milke on his Op

Wrucks on Timemuffin (PT)

Taratech and

and who is that sniper?

 

is that a real DP team?

 

I don't think anyone knows what a "real" DP team is

 

They tend to be the ones that will play anything spec/class just to play arenas. Don't think anyone is as serious as they will be when season 1 actually hits.

[Raazmir]

So basically the one single hybrid that makes bring a vanguard tank worthwile over a jug tnak should be removed? Also straight AP in ion cell is hardly tanky at all its not like armor means much of anything in pvp.

 

Energy rebounder and stabilized armor seem a whole lot more relevant in pvp to me than some passive bonuses to shield rating and absorb.

[foxmob]

The real problem with it is the solo ranked Q. You are 4dps vs 4 dps, but oh wait the enemy has 3,5dps and a tank

 

this is true regardless of the tank AC. I do agree with op that the cylinder/cell needs to be paired with the tree once you get into the 3rd tier.

[Zoom_VI]

Energy rebounder and stabilized armor seem a whole lot more relevant in pvp to me than some passive bonuses to shield rating and absorb.

 

You don't run full AP with IC if your going to tank anything. You go 13 (or fourteen since there is a random spare point) up the tank tree for roit gas, armor incrase, and the 2% shield+ammo regen. The n you go up AP and pick rebounder.

However in order to maintank you take tank gear so your hardly going to be hitting much harder, and certainly no harder than hybrid sin or a tank jug does with dispatch and ravage.

[irojoz]

I don't think anyone knows what a "real" DP team is

 

They tend to be the ones that will play anything spec/class just to play arenas. Don't think anyone is as serious as they will be when season 1 actually hits.

 

LOL we went in with a scapper dps. won all our games except the ones against you guys.

#nerfscappers

#toostrong