Arkerus Posted October 19, 2013 Share Posted October 19, 2013 If the boss dies. Good. If the boss does not die. Bad. Everyone has to do better. You live and die as a team. We do not need public DPS meters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmjarec Posted October 20, 2013 Share Posted October 20, 2013 It doesnt exclude anyone from playing they exclude themselves by not trying to avoid being dead weight. Thats life you think a sales company is going to keep someone who doesnt sell? Its their choice if they want to suck they could change it i dont see why they are happy being horribad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rafaman Posted October 20, 2013 Share Posted October 20, 2013 If the boss dies. Good. If the boss does not die. Bad. Everyone has to do better. You live and die as a team. We do not need public DPS meters. It is a difficult concept for some to understand. Besides... the content in this game is really not that hard. And anything that really requires a focused group effort should not be PUG'ed. And... parsers and meters exist now. Everything is as it should be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Klarick Posted October 20, 2013 Share Posted October 20, 2013 Your example is flawed for one simple reason - you didn't specify what caused the said wipe. The fact you asked that question places you in the "I dont understand the example given" crowd. Hint: The reason the party wiped is very obvious to the experienced MMO player. Also, the fact you asked that question, you are my proof that meters do nothing to tell the reason for the wipe, and serve no purpose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmperorLupey Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 Some very inflated comments from both sides of this argument. This should not be a sore subject, nothing related to bettering a game should be. You may think a real time tracker of damage taken, damage dealt, healing, taken, healing done, cleansing done, a listed break down of who is taking damage from what skills, and which skills are not being interrupted does not help improve in group awareness. Your judgement on the matter is flawed. These real time updates with the correct people monitoring each 1 greatly improve peoples abilities to "gel" together. this is Including PUG's. In a PUG it defines a standard that must be met. I have had some crappy toons, in crappy gear. I have never been removed from a group due to low numbers. I have had people say things like "Wow your DPS is *expletive*". I would agree with them, and explain why. Most cases the bar was so low to reach that even my crappy dps was over the mark. If it wasn't these Elitists would carry me through it. I would thank them, and we would go on with our lives. In turn I have carried many groups on my own back nearly 100% of the way. Not removing people for being worse than myself. Usually the comments were along the lines of "Holy poop! Your toon is godly". I would just laugh, and tell them how I was carried at 1 point also. Community is the people in it. Not the tools that community has. This seems to be the biggest misconception that this argument is running into. I feel as if most people responding to this by saying that "it will be abused "really mean "I will abuse it". It is unlikely good people will turn bad due to adding a new feature. If you are already bad than maybe you should lighten up a bit. (bad in this context meaning "Mean spirited") I have lead raids in many games across many systems, and I found that having these meters was a huge relief compared to after the matter parsing. Vanilla WoW Naxxramas was a huge pain in the butt. As soon as my guild officers all started to use skada our management of situations was much more refined. People learned how to stay out of bad things (fire, poison) and they only got that way because we called them out on it. IF we found someone trying to top DPS charts, but soaking up damage from avoidable means we didn't applaud them. We griped at him, and let him die. If they couldn't learn from this we replaced them. Every argument against this is about how it not a team building utility. I for 1 strongly disagree. Holding people to a standard (in most cases an extremely low standard) is not a bad thing. If people do not meet that standard they should not be expected to be carried, but in most cases they are. In those regards the person carrying is usually friendly about it, or indifferent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EmperorLupey Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 The fact you asked that question places you in the "I dont understand the example given" crowd. Hint: The reason the party wiped is very obvious to the experienced MMO player. Also, the fact you asked that question, you are my proof that meters do nothing to tell the reason for the wipe, and serve no purpose. Most times a simple run through of damage taken will give the reason for a wipe. Example 1: 3 top dpsers struggling for first place decide to stand in the fire. Fourth place person overcomes all of them due to dead dps= 0 dps. Example 2: Tank did not use his interrupt on a large aoe ability 2/3 of the raid take 80% damage. Example 3: Tank did not use a cooldown to mitigate damage from a large ability Example 4: Offtank did not taunt off Main tank in time to remove stackable debuffs Example 5: Main tank did not drop his rotation and regained aggro after a taunt Example 6: Healer did not cleanse "bomb type" ability Example 7: Healer abandoned his assignment to inflate numbers This list is huge, and every regard to it is able to be tracked by a system like recount, and should make people be held accountable for their mistakes. I have been that person before in every example, except for the first, and have learned to be a better player because of it. Without this tool the majority of the time nobody will accept their mistakes. When you point them out with definitive proof there is no argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trollokdamus Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 The fact you asked that question places you in the "I dont understand the example given" crowd. Hint: The reason the party wiped is very obvious to the experienced MMO player. Also, the fact you asked that question, you are my proof that meters do nothing to tell the reason for the wipe, and serve no purpose. Sure, feel free to put me in that crowd. In my understanding there are numerous reasons that may have caused the wipe in your example. Though i guess you were hinting at marauder who, despite having great dps, failed to perform boss mechanics which caused a wipe, and the meter should somehow protect him from being blamed. But i don't see how having great dps on the meter can help him if it's obvious that he screwed up. The meter doesn't cause any problems in your example, on the opposite, it may show you that it was exactly the marauder who failed. Next, i've already told you what purpose meters serve in my previous post, as well as EmperorLupey did in his latest post, yet you still keep saying that they serve no purpose... Oh well, some people can only hear themselves, can't do anything about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
branmakmuffin Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 Some very inflated comments from both sides of this argument. This should not be a sore subject, nothing related to bettering a game should be You've already revealed your bias with your assertion that the subject of "DPS meters" is a subject about "bettering the game." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarMagus Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 Most times a simple run through of damage taken will give the reason for a wipe. Example 1: 3 top dpsers struggling for first place decide to stand in the fire. Fourth place person overcomes all of them due to dead dps= 0 dps. Example 2: Tank did not use his interrupt on a large aoe ability 2/3 of the raid take 80% damage. Example 3: Tank did not use a cooldown to mitigate damage from a large ability Example 4: Offtank did not taunt off Main tank in time to remove stackable debuffs Example 5: Main tank did not drop his rotation and regained aggro after a taunt Example 6: Healer did not cleanse "bomb type" ability Example 7: Healer abandoned his assignment to inflate numbers This list is huge, and every regard to it is able to be tracked by a system like recount, and should make people be held accountable for their mistakes. I have been that person before in every example, except for the first, and have learned to be a better player because of it. Without this tool the majority of the time nobody will accept their mistakes. When you point them out with definitive proof there is no argument. Keep in mind that what Recount would do in helping the raid get past those mistakes is make the content EASIER to clear, which is why some games don't want them. Heck for awhile WoW had a mod that made it so if you clicked a button it would find automagically have your character use whatever remove bad effect ability they had on the nearest person. You just kept clicking the button until it stopped glowing. It made content trivial, and it was removed. These mods are loved by players and people wanting to clear content because they make things easier, you listed 7 ways that recount would help a raid, but a game company has an interest in not letting players have too easy of a time clearing content. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gorstram Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 Keep in mind that what Recount would do in helping the raid get past those mistakes is make the content EASIER to clear, which is why some games don't want them. Heck for awhile WoW had a mod that made it so if you clicked a button it would find automagically have your character use whatever remove bad effect ability they had on the nearest person. You just kept clicking the button until it stopped glowing. It made content trivial, and it was removed. These mods are loved by players and people wanting to clear content because they make things easier, you listed 7 ways that recount would help a raid, but a game company has an interest in not letting players have too easy of a time clearing content. Your referring to Decursive. Which was a necessity because unlike the debuffs in this game where it usually throws it up on one or two players, and gives you several seconds to get it off, there were raid bosses that threw a huge debuff up on an entire raid of 40 people, and you had about 10 seconds to get it off before it insta-gibbed those players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rafaman Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 (edited) Besides, you don't need Recount for what is being described. I will admit it makes it easier, but the parsers and meters available do in fact to this very thing in a rudimentary fashion. Check out Parsec and you will see that you can filter a raid groups combat logs by effects, attacks, heals, events, incoming and outgoin damage etc. and it gives you a great view of the log so you can go through it line by line and find the issues if you are so inclined. In my view, we don't need BW to provide anymore than what they have provided. There are other priorities. Edited October 21, 2013 by Rafaman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarMagus Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 Your referring to Decursive. Which was a necessity because unlike the debuffs in this game where it usually throws it up on one or two players, and gives you several seconds to get it off, there were raid bosses that threw a huge debuff up on an entire raid of 40 people, and you had about 10 seconds to get it off before it insta-gibbed those players. I think that's what it was called, they later removed the ability because it made things too easy. I don't know if they brought it back, but I remember the patch that "broke it" and the howls from the raid on the next attempt at one of those bosses. People had gotten so bad at cleansing because of it that the entire raid died. Heh... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ImpactHound Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 I think that's what it was called, they later removed the ability because it made things too easy. I don't know if they brought it back, but I remember the patch that "broke it" and the howls from the raid on the next attempt at one of those bosses. People had gotten so bad at cleansing because of it that the entire raid died. Heh... They redesigned encounters at the same time as breaking the mod, because it was bad design to require that addon to clear a killing debuff. The context of this deflates your point partially. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarMagus Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 They redesigned encounters at the same time as breaking the mod, because it was bad design to require that addon to clear a killing debuff. The context of this deflates your point partially. Not really, my point was that mods that are designed to make the game easier are wanted by the players. Recount is one example of that. I mean as a raid leader the more information I have the easier it's going to be to beat an encounter. Give me the ability after the fight is over to see where everybody was standing, their rotations, what damage they were taking, how the boss was moving in something like SC2 match replay and I'll come up with ways to beat the encounter faster than somebody who isn't using any external tools. More information is a good thing when it comes to raiding. That also exactly why a game company may not want to provide that information to their players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ImpactHound Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 Not really, my point was that mods that are designed to make the game easier are wanted by the players. Recount is one example of that. I mean as a raid leader the more information I have the easier it's going to be to beat an encounter. Give me the ability after the fight is over to see where everybody was standing, their rotations, what damage they were taking, how the boss was moving in something like SC2 match replay and I'll come up with ways to beat the encounter faster than somebody who isn't using any external tools. More information is a good thing when it comes to raiding. That also exactly why a game company may not want to provide that information to their players. These mods are loved by players and people wanting to clear content because they make things easier, you listed 7 ways that recount would help a raid, but a game company has an interest in not letting players have too easy of a time clearing content. Maybe it's just me, but I'm reading two different opinions from the same person on the same page. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StarMagus Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 (edited) Maybe it's just me, but I'm reading two different opinions from the same person on the same page. It's not... as a raider you want as much information as possible. The more information you have the faster you can knock down encounters. As a game company you don't want your players bulldozing past your encounters. It's not that I hold 2 different opinions, it's that I understand the view point of Raiders and of the company making the raids. Edited October 21, 2013 by StarMagus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ImpactHound Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 (edited) It's not... as a raider you want as much information as possible. The more information you have the faster you can knock down encounters As a game company you don't want your players bulldozing past your encounters. That's clearer. I also oppose that developer line of thinking as a player. Players are going to go as fast as they choose and you can't really stop a hardcore group from doing content(or trying really hard) at a fast pace. What developers can do is improve the overall quality-of-life of that content and the overall experience so if it's fun, players will revisit it and pace themselves accordingly. Weekly raid lock-outs are a logical example of a good way to extend content and not let players burn out on it. Trying to block addons that improve your game by streamlining data to the player is not one. Edited October 21, 2013 by ImpactHound Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuixupu Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 I think that's what it was called, they later removed the ability because it made things too easy. I don't know if they brought it back, but I remember the patch that "broke it" and the howls from the raid on the next attempt at one of those bosses. People had gotten so bad at cleansing because of it that the entire raid died. Heh... I don't remember WoW ever breaking or removing Decursive. I always used it and it is still available to use now. However, they did recently change the way debuffs and cleansing works. You can now cleanse all debuffs on a target at once, but there is a longer coolodwn so it's no longer spammable. I do remember when they broke AVR, but that addon was just too OP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ImpactHound Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 (edited) I don't remember WoW ever breaking or removing Decursive. I always used it and it is still available to use now. However, they did recently change the way debuffs and cleansing works. You can now cleanse all debuffs on a target at once, but there is a longer coolodwn so it's no longer spammable. I do remember when they broke AVR, but that addon was just too OP. It was a macro element of Decursive, not the addon itself. It broke the spirit of the original addon where it was largely automated, which is no longer the case. On a side note, are you pleased Wildstar is launching with an open API and mod support right out the gate? Edited October 21, 2013 by ImpactHound Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ikinai Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 Because, Americans have problems converting things into the metric system. Now if you were to introduce a DPS feet or DPS miles, you might get somewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ImpactHound Posted October 21, 2013 Share Posted October 21, 2013 Because, Americans have problems converting things into the metric system. Now if you were to introduce a DPS feet or DPS miles, you might get somewhere. That reference was so good, I stood up and clapped. I find it hard to believe anyone in Europe or the eastern hemisphere liked Rodney Dangerfield. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TUXs Posted October 22, 2013 Share Posted October 22, 2013 Because, Americans have problems converting things into the metric system. Now if you were to introduce a DPS feet or DPS miles, you might get somewhere. OMG LOL! That was brilliant!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeweledleah Posted October 22, 2013 Share Posted October 22, 2013 I feel as if most people responding to this by saying that "it will be abused "really mean "I will abuse it". It is unlikely good people will turn bad due to adding a new feature. If you are already bad than maybe you should lighten up a bit. (bad in this context meaning "Mean spirited") no. its because most of us have seen it be abused. I've seen it over and over. I've seen it when I just started playing and when I started seriously raiding, when I burned out and went casual... over and over. in most cases I was able to point out how person abusing the meters was actually abusing them instead of using them correctly. but not always. and every single time, it turned the run sour. also. having raided for years, not a single group, not one successful group seriously discussed mistakes as encounter progressed. there was simply no time for that as you would be more focused on trying to salvage it. no. mistakes were always ALWAYS addressed after a wipe. we would run back and then we would go over the logs, trying to see what went wrong, analyze the situation and NOT always through "damage meters/logs" either, because a lot of times - we had to figure out what visual cues were telling us and how to respond to them. a lot of times, someone would fraps the encounter, so that we would be able to go over it in an instant replay fashion and improve from there. moreover, in encounters that WOULD be cleared if individual's performance was not up to par, it was discussed AFTER the raid, by going over logs, NOT during. why? because we would be raiding for a limited time and we simply didn't have time to stop and address minor issues when there were more bosses to attempt. last but not least - pugs don't benefit from this sort of tools, why? because you are not steady group, you are there to kill bosses first and foremost. if pug is not going well, majority of the time, it just falls apart, because people don't have time to waste trying to find replacement and turn into teaching opportunity. ergo. ability to dissect the encounter, searchable logs, ability to see individual logs, search etc as quickly as possible without having to upload it? yes please. damage meters? widespread, built in damage meters? more harm then good. P.S. I'm looking forward to trying out parsec tonight instead of my usual torparse. its supposed to do a better job logging the encounter and making said log more readable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishigum Posted October 23, 2013 Share Posted October 23, 2013 (edited) I have an idea, How about adding personal meters that one can only see once the instanced event is over? That way you can see how you did once it's all over with and you can then choose to share this information at your own discretion. Make it a feature that you have to enable as well. Parsers are ok but they don't show critical information such as absorbs from shields and what not. Edited October 23, 2013 by Ishigum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeweledleah Posted October 23, 2013 Share Posted October 23, 2013 I have an idea, How about adding personal meters that one can only see once the instanced event is over? That way you can see how you did once it's all over with and you can then choose to share this information at your own discretion. Make it a feature that you have to enable as well. Parsers are ok but they don't show critical information such as absorbs from shields and what not. those already exist. I believe they were mentioned earlier in a thread, but the three i know of for sure are Mox, torparse, and parsec Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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