An Open Letter to BioWare: Improving the Overall State of SWTOR.

[FriendReferral]

1) every MMO I have ever played has suffered from class preference by players. It's where the term FoTM came from too.. as devs try to balance the classes in an MMO.. the players always find and fixate on some class that they perceive is better then the rest as devs make balance adjustments. It's the nature of the "non-realm team warfare" PvP player unfortunately.

It's just gotten to the point where the term FOTY is more appropriate since class balancing is happening at a rate of the movement of the Death Star.

 

I think it's just inarguable which class specs shine in PvP at the moment. For sure, lolSmashers and Scouperatives are most likely perfect where they're at in PvE, but PvP it's just a complete mess. It's been an ongoing issue for a long time, so I think the concerns raised by the PvP community for this long and this loud is more than warranted.

 

Even Sage/Sorc healers, who may but not always under-perform Scouperatives, are now being shunned by a majority of the PvP community because of the lack of adjustments and what we've been told, which in turn, have made them nonviable for Arenas. IMO, it would be smart for the combat team to revisit the Sage/Sorc debacle and actually tweak some things. Not sure about buffing or nerfing, but I'd rather not get into that as class balance discussion isn't really my forté.

 

2) It's unfortunate to see you insist on making absolute judgments as to the talents of (or lack of) the PvP devs. I won't support it because there is simply no way it is true. It's a pejorative exaggeration, made by PvP players who are not getting what they want and want to lash out at the devs in some sort of revenge or spite.

It may not be true to you, but it is true to what most of the PvP community believes at the moment because that's how we feel. We're frustrated, bewildered and overall disappointed with the direction it's taken.

 

I know you're not an avid PvP'er, but many of us really want these class balance changes to happen as soon as they can so other class specs can get at a viable level.

Edited September 26, 2013 by FriendReferral

[ELRunninW]

Why are you still here?!

[L-RANDLE]

Why are you still here?!

At the core?

Because we want a direct answer on whether or not BW wants our money and if they are willing to perform significantly better to get it.

[ELRunninW]

So all this threatening about unsubscribing is just a joke? Do you expect anyone to take you seriously?

Why change anything when all you are going to do is make few forum threads?

[L-RANDLE]

So all this threatening about unsubscribing is just a joke? Do you expect anyone to take you seriously?

Why change anything when all you are going to do is make few forum threads?

 

Some are, some are not. Its up to each individual who agrees with this letter. I was speaking for myself personally, but I am sure more share this stance..

[Lagboot]

I do not support this post, nor any petition based on PvP. PvP is the bane of most all MMo's. I played WoW for 8 years from release. PvP was the worst addition to that game from day one (month 6 or so). PVE suffered ever since. There was such a constant balance issue every 3 months, that PVE was nerfed to the ground, most all future Raids were based on PvP rebalances and classes suffered and became F.O.M. classes for a few months. Arenas ruined PvP even more and degraded PvE constantly. I see MMO's as PVE first and PvP as a secondary "fun time" mini game on the side. Seriously go play CoD, BF, or a console PvP game if you want absolute balance on a PvE server. PvP servers though are and could be different and balanced . Later in my post I will show an old idea for PvP.

Just my opinion and I am not glorifying or saying it is better than anything else out there...but.......I think Warhammer got PvP mostly right. No real balance.

Certain classes "HAD" to be protected, certain classes "WERE" over powered in certain aspects and situations, but all classes could be utilized if the players worked as a team and utilized their PvP gaming skills together. Tanks had to tank outside the castles, Dps had to protect healers as well as Dps Dps, and heavy armor classes could take a beating, but were vulnerable to casters who in turn were glass cannons against melee dps. Ranges classes could put out serious Dps at range. This made the teams actually have to function as an entity and not as a bunch of mindless free-for-all kill festers.

Now, Warhammer failed due to launch issues, bad timing in release, and glitches, but the PvP was the most fun when it happened server wide, in any MMO I have played. But I do understand it was server wide and not in "matches".

But, since we have no “World” PvP at the moment, balance may be the answer, but it can and always has come back to haunt PvE and endgame.

Lastly, I think the true solution to PvP is to dedicate PvP changes to PvP servers only.

My idea is to separate PvP from PvE completely on PvE servers and have PvP servers perform as totally different servers’ stat wise and game play wise.

Here is what I have seen said before and thought of in the past…………………

On PvE servers you will have a totally separate Talent tree for PvP. The instant you flag for PvP your PvP talent tree and spec takes precedent and is activated. Un-Flag and your PvE talents activate. This will allow complete balancing through talents and skills and allow the PvE tree to remain pure and even tweaked for Operations and Hard Modes. Since on a PvE server the majority of PvP is in Warzones and now will be in Ranked this seems doable and logical.

On PvP servers all talents are geared to PvP. (no PvE talent trees) All Operations, Flashpoints, and Hard modes are tuned to the disadvantage of wearing PvP gear and PvP talents. Most likely tuned down in difficulty, but equal to PvP gear factors for a challenging game experience.

This means that all Operations and Flashpoints gear will be PvP based and not Pve on a PvP server. There is Zero PvE stats, and all that on a PvP server. Set bonuses apply to PvP and PvE together. This in turn makes a PvP server truly PvP only. Development can go all out to balance PvP with this setup without affecting PvE on PvE servers.

In conclusion I do understand this would have some development issues and setbacks, but doable without a major overhaul of the game. Since it would be server specific (PvP and PvE) it would begin with a separation of the game by server type then patching to modify Ops, HM's ,etc. as I laid out above. Understandably not as simple in my explanation.

[branmakmuffin]

At the core?

Because we want a direct answer on whether or not BW wants our money and if they are willing to perform significantly better to get it.

Well, good luck with that.

[branmakmuffin]

Bran, you da man.

What's happening, Arkerus?

 

You are.

[Roalmo]

I do not support this post, nor any petition based on PvP. PvP is the bane of most all MMo's. I played WoW for 8 years from release. PvP was the worst addition to that game from day one (month 6 or so). PVE suffered ever since. There was such a constant balance issue every 3 months, that PVE was nerfed to the ground, most all future Raids were based on PvP rebalances and classes suffered and became F.O.M. classes for a few months. Arenas ruined PvP even more and degraded PvE constantly. I see MMO's as PVE first and PvP as a secondary "fun time" mini game on the side. Seriously go play CoD, BF, or a console PvP game if you want absolute balance on a PvE server. PvP servers though are and could be different and balanced . Later in my post I will show an old idea for PvP.

Just my opinion and I am not glorifying or saying it is better than anything else out there...but.......I think Warhammer got PvP mostly right. No real balance.

Certain classes "HAD" to be protected, certain classes "WERE" over powered in certain aspects and situations, but all classes could be utilized if the players worked as a team and utilized their PvP gaming skills together. Tanks had to tank outside the castles, Dps had to protect healers as well as Dps Dps, and heavy armor classes could take a beating, but were vulnerable to casters who in turn were glass cannons against melee dps. Ranges classes could put out serious Dps at range. This made the teams actually have to function as an entity and not as a bunch of mindless free-for-all kill festers.

Now, Warhammer failed due to launch issues, bad timing in release, and glitches, but the PvP was the most fun when it happened server wide, in any MMO I have played. But I do understand it was server wide and not in "matches".

But, since we have no “World” PvP at the moment, balance may be the answer, but it can and always has come back to haunt PvE and endgame.

Lastly, I think the true solution to PvP is to dedicate PvP changes to PvP servers only.

My idea is to separate PvP from PvE completely on PvE servers and have PvP servers perform as totally different servers’ stat wise and game play wise.

Here is what I have seen said before and thought of in the past…………………

On PvE servers you will have a totally separate Talent tree for PvP. The instant you flag for PvP your PvP talent tree and spec takes precedent and is activated. Un-Flag and your PvE talents activate. This will allow complete balancing through talents and skills and allow the PvE tree to remain pure and even tweaked for Operations and Hard Modes. Since on a PvE server the majority of PvP is in Warzones and now will be in Ranked this seems doable and logical.

On PvP servers all talents are geared to PvP. (no PvE talent trees) All Operations, Flashpoints, and Hard modes are tuned to the disadvantage of wearing PvP gear and PvP talents. Most likely tuned down in difficulty, but equal to PvP gear factors for a challenging game experience.

This means that all Operations and Flashpoints gear will be PvP based and not Pve on a PvP server. There is Zero PvE stats, and all that on a PvP server. Set bonuses apply to PvP and PvE together. This in turn makes a PvP server truly PvP only. Development can go all out to balance PvP with this setup without affecting PvE on PvE servers.

In conclusion I do understand this would have some development issues and setbacks, but doable without a major overhaul of the game. Since it would be server specific (PvP and PvE) it would begin with a separation of the game by server type then patching to modify Ops, HM's ,etc. as I laid out above. Understandably not as simple in my explanation.

 

Agree with this post. Send the PVPers away. All balancing/game changes for the PVPers impact the PVErs, mostly negatively.

 

Learn from the past of other MMOs, after update 1.4 to WAR the population went off the cliff, and it was an attempt to appease the PVPers whining. Where is WAR now?

[TheNahash]

Why are you still here?!

 

You're asking this question in a petition thread made by someone who's "Unsubscribed as of the 1st of May" yet keeps coming back in a "The Artist Formerly Known As Prince" fashion and is co-signing the same petition (in another thread - because apparently one wasn't enough) made by someone else who left because Revan's armor was not red enough (or something) but re-subscribes to "count the votes and announce the forum user of the month" and alternates between calling Musco a liar and asking him for an honest answer.

 

You're not going to get an answer that makes sense.

You know that, right?

[mmjarec]

You should put a demand that they wipe out all bots and cheating because it ruins the game for everyone and its prevalent just do a youtube search

[dscount]

They shouldn't swing the NERF / BUFF bat so dang hard.

 

Just seems like when they do something it's complete knee jerk and not "Baby Steps" or correctional type in nature. Then you get all the QQ's fits by FOTM or FOTY now (We know who they are) if they can't insta kill something anymore.

[smilingbee]

I'm emotionally invested in that the most since I never got the chance to regularly run RWZs.

 

To be completely honest, I don't think they can keep 8v8 warzones as they currently are. Should they be left in the game, only the same select handful of players will still get to compete in them. As I stated in "the other thread", there lacks a transition from regs into ranked. My guild consists of some rather casual PvPers and raiders. We just don't have the manpower to build a ranked team. The "LF good pvp healer for RWZs" ads on the fleet can be somewhat intimidating to respond to, especially if you're planning on trying ranked for the first time (folks aren't always nice when you make even one small mistake while learning). To also have a consistent 8-man ranked warzone team would probably require me to switch guilds, something I do not wish to do. Thus, there would need to be an improvement in the ease of access of 8v8, on top of all the changes already proposed. If that were to happen, I would be the happiest PvP healer on POT5. I love competitive PvP, always have in 5-6 other MMOs. IMHO in this game it just wasn't accessible to the newbie competitive PvPers and I've always had that lingering feeling of disappointment in the whole ranked warzone system because I could just not participate in them in the current state of things. I outfitted my 3 PvP healers in conqueror gear doing regs (ouch).

 

That being said, you finally have my support for your cause. I feel it is much more constructive than the previous iteration, and does not tie the devs' hands in term of responding and acting on the suggestions presented. It has no reference to who is a good or bad PvPer depending on their guild. It has no implication of having to unsub if I sign, as I still enjoy operation progression.

 

Therefore, /signed.

 

[SenaZane]

Agree with this post. Send the PVPers away. All balancing/game changes for the PVPers impact the PVErs, mostly negatively.

 

Learn from the past of other MMOs, after update 1.4 to WAR the population went off the cliff, and it was an attempt to appease the PVPers whining. Where is WAR now?

 

And PVE balancing affects PvPers too! Case and point: Smash. So very mediocre compared to other dps specs in PVE apart from clearing trash and yet in PvP it is overpowered. Look at Ops/Scoundrels.. Give them overpowered resource management so they can be almost on par with sorcs/sages and let them run around in PVP and be pretty much unkillable (that is if you are a decent PvPer). Sure you get cases where classes are adjusted for PvP and it ends up badly in PVE, but please don't act like it doesn't happen the other way around.

 

"Do away with the PvPers". I don't care how much you dont like PvP saying something like that in a game that has chosen to include PvP as part of it is like saying "send your subscribers away!" I have seen so many PVErs sit here and belittle the PvPers calling them "The bane of the game." or things akin to this. Yet here we are, PvPers sitting here asking Bioware to make the game better for EVERYONE by including other things that directly/indirectly affect everyone.

 

Sure there is a lot of PvP stuff in here, but that is because PvP is neglected. We are getting this big update so clearly Bioware wants PvP as part of their game, so we are asking them to listen to us if they want to do something with it. I feel many people severly underestimate the number of people who include PvP as a reason to play this game for more than just their weekly raids. Case and point: I get faster wz que pops on servers that are just PVE focused than on my actual PvP server. It is cheaper to sub than buy the weekly passes to raid, but I wonder how many people would be around on a regular basis if it WERE cheaper to just be f2p and buy passes than subscribe to the game.

 

P.S. Powertechs in anything but as dps arenas. Lol.

[Gnoblesse]

2) It's unfortunate to see you insist on making absolute judgments as to the talents of (or lack of) the PvP devs. I won't support it because there is simply no way it is true. It's a pejorative exaggeration, made by PvP players who are not getting what they want and want to lash out at the devs in some sort of revenge or spite.

 

If you don't mind, I'd like to take a quick shot at a bit of an explanation of where that kind of attitude comes from. I'll note, though, that I'm not claiming to speak for the OP, this is just my personal observation.

 

I think the frustration for many comes from what appears to be a significant over reliance on metrics, compared to actual player experience on live. (Not to say that it should completely swing the other way, mind you, because you can't really account for varying player skill.) Metrics aren't going to show you, for example, how many melee were absolutely miserable for MONTHS after 1.4 (Bubble Stun.) Unless the specific metric you're focusing on is "how long do players spend not in control of their character," things like that end up taking way too long to be addressed. I think there's also a concern with how the metrics deal with outliers - if a class is not performing well in general, but a select dedicated few stubbornly stick to the class and perform reasonably well out of sheer determination, is that factored into the equation? Players will flock to the class perceived as FOTM and many will still struggle with it, how does that affect the "metrics" overall?

 

Basically, there is very little shared about what these metrics are, and how they are used. (Weren't we supposed to get a "mathy" post explaining bolster? Did that ever get posted?) If there was more transparency there, there'd also be more opportunity for constructive discussion. "I know your metric shows *this,* but in the live game, it's actually happening like *that,* and *here* is where you might want to consider making an adjustment." Instead, it feels like we are just being asked to trust metrics that aren't really shared with us, and then when people see things like bubble stun left in the game for month after month; THAT'S when people start wondering what on earth the devs are looking at to determine that the current state of gameplay is acceptable.

 

TL,DR: I think showing us, to the extent that it's possible, the actual math instead of telling us to "heal to full" would be a significant improvement.

[L-RANDLE]

Agree with this post. Send the PVPers away. All balancing/game changes for the PVPers impact the PVErs, mostly negatively.

 

Its hard to make this statement when the changes to date have been more negative than positive for PvP. In fact they have done a total 180 on what PvP community wanted on many occasions.

 

Top raid guilds have a lot of the same issues with certain classes. I don't see what "putting PvPers away" will do to solve BWs lack of consistent balancing between classes. NPC difficulty can always be adjusted.

[Crawelc]

2) It's unfortunate to see you insist on making absolute judgments as to the talents of (or lack of) the PvP devs. I won't support it because there is simply no way it is true. It's a pejorative exaggeration, made by PvP players who are not getting what they want and want to lash out at the devs in some sort of revenge or spite.

 

This should be seen as what it is, blind obedience. If we can not say after nearly 2 years that the pvp devs are completely incompetent and a direction change is severely needed then we also can not say the sun rises in the east. I would make a list, but I have to wash my hair. Needless to say month after month patch after patch has seen nothing but mediocrity at the best from the developers. IMO it all stems from having a Lead Designer for both PVP and PVE. Gabe needs a PVP counterpart and that has been readily apparent since the Guild Summit.

[Leonardhbrown]

/signed

 

[Draekos]

Nice rewrite. Hopefully there can be a dialogue created with BW here.

[Blackardin]

Just wanted to jump in here (Long day at work), and voice my support. I don't agree with every detail of these requests, but that's not what matters to me. What matters is that its out there. What matters is that every last one of us participating in this thread, on these boards, in this game, regardless of who likes what, who hates who, who wants what, share a single set of common goals, which is to see the game continue to improve where it has, to start to improve where it has not, to continue onward in an upward direction.

 

We're all here because, when all is said and done, we like the game, and we want it, as much as the developers, or anyone that has poured their efforts into it, to succeed and continue. Its important that the developers understand this, understand that through all the childish ranting and raving, all the insults leveled, all the crass rudeness, the players are as much invested in this game as are they, and are right beside them in their desire to see it remain for many a year to come.

 

The game has endured, it is earning, it has the potential to earn even more if there is an investment made into positive change to a degree that will draw more players in from all aspects of the game as well as maintain a strong interest with players that have remained.

 

From my standpoint, that is where such requests as this truly come into play. There are those of us that enjoy the game (especially after a day such as I've just had), for what it is, a game, a distraction. However, though I've been here since launch, been an avid player, I'm finding myself logging on less and less at this point in time. I personally do not want to feel that. What I want is to have something to look forward to, new ideas being looked into, improvements to performance as they can be done, new PVE and PVP adventures, the knowledge that the game will continue to improve and expand, and be ongoing.....and I tend to believe that when all the fat is boiled away, it is pretty close to what most players want -even the silent majority.

 

For that I would gladly offer my financial support both through ongoing subscription, cartel purchases, and participation....as I believe many of us will.

 

....and I would not worry too much about whether the developers answer this thread, or if it will gain notice. They may not respond (for a number of reasons), but they are already reading it guys. No one in any industry with any horse sense at all would not.

 

Well done.

 

/signed

 

Waves to Eric. ;p

[SnapKatana]

/signed /support

 

 

bioware my biggest issue with swtor, and I love this game, is class balance. For the love of god we cant go 6+ months with no class balance...

 

this issue will be even more in the spot light with arena's coming out. Time will tell if you guys can fix the game or we will continue to watch people leave the game. I am particularly frustrated recently because several members of my 8man nightmare group have quit the game due to no class balance and a complete lack of excitement at having had to run tfb for the past year. We need help as a playerbase just as you as developers need help.

 

I implore YOU bioware austin to let us help you improve swtor. We will be happy gamers and you will have a more successful and profitable game.

[Mercurial_Harpy]

Nice rewrite. Hopefully there can be a dialogue created with BW here.

 

I find it very interesting (or telling, depending on your preference) that no one official from Bioware, forum mods or devs, has responded to any of the 5-6 threads asking for input in over 2 weeks. Not even the ubiquitous "tone it down, folks" finger shaking we usually see.

 

After what happened with the class reps and the PR fiasco that followed, I seriously doubt a dialogue with unhappy players will be forthcoming, even if their griping is justified. I've said it in other threads, but I'm getting a "this is all we got, love it or leave it" vibe from EA/Bioware. Sorry state of affairs.

[Rasen]

Keep in mind the one to reply to such a thread would be Eric and he is away at the moment as he stated a couple of days ago. So getting a reply from him this week isn't going to happen. As for next week we'll see. I'd recommend that for those who are willing to PM Eric directly and ask him to read and muster up a reply to this specific thread. I do not think Bioware will ignore this, but we can't expect Amber and Courtney to jump in here. I don't believe this falls into their job line of sight.

[Rafaman]

Keep in mind the one to reply to such a thread would be Eric and he is away at the moment as he stated a couple of days ago. So getting a reply from him this week isn't going to happen. As for next week we'll see. I'd recommend that for those who are willing to PM Eric directly and ask him to read and muster up a reply to this specific thread. I do not think Bioware will ignore this, but we can't expect Amber and Courtney to jump in here. I don't believe this falls into their job line of sight.

 

Fair point. I did not know he was out. Thanks.

[FriendReferral]

You're asking this question in a petition thread made by someone who's "Unsubscribed as of the 1st of May" yet keeps coming back in a "The Artist Formerly Known As Prince" fashion and is co-signing the same petition (in another thread - because apparently one wasn't enough) made by someone else who left because Revan's armor was not red enough (or something) but re-subscribes to "count the votes and announce the forum user of the month" and alternates between calling Musco a liar and asking him for an honest answer.

 

You're not going to get an answer that makes sense.

You know that, right?

If you read earlier in the petition, my sub is about to end in a few days. I've just been using a friend's account to post on the forums.

 

 

P.S. I actually typed up the other petition. My buddy decided not to support this one due to the lack of having due dates.