Bioware AUSTIN has some PR issues right now.

[Andryah]

For the record.. when you get Music videos, new catch phrases and even quoted responses.. you MIGHT just have a PROBLEM with the class. Your team really needs to take a second look at the issues at hand.

 

So.. are you saying that the dev team responsible for a class is not allowed to disagree with players on class design and point out why they disagree?

 

Personally, I'm pretty sure every dev team responsible for a class is constantly reviewing the class design, and doing so in context to player feedback, the other teams and their class design and to upcoming patch content both PvE and PvP. I see no signs that they are not. I do however see clear signs that some players refuse to accept a class as is and want it to be different (always different btw).

 

As a player.. there are in fact things about every class I play that I wish were different. But this has always been true in every MMO I have ever played as well. But I also accept that my desires are mine.. and likely are not consistent with the greater context and long term health of a class.... EVEN if some other players have the same feelings as I do.

 

TL;DR we as players play the classes. We get to provide feedback about the classes too. But it is up to Bioware what/how/why/when they make adjustments to any class. Player input is just one set of data to a class.. NOT the only set. As a player, I understand and respect this.. even if I personally don't always agree with the changes they make to a class (or don't make).

Edited August 27, 2013 by Andryah

[weejohnathon]

The dev answer to this, and my answer to this are that if you can do the same DPS as someone who can't heal, but you can heal, don't you have a significant advantage over them?

 

No as this is where the trade off comes in you have to stop dpsing all together to heal, therefore you arent dpsing so you cant keep up with the other dps classes, if you spec into dps that should be what you do, if you wanted to heal you would have chosen the heal spec. No?

[hadoken]

The dev answer to this, and my answer to this are that if you can do the same DPS as someone who can't heal, but you can heal, don't you have a significant advantage over them?

 

In the DPS role, you do not. And it becomes a problem in this case when the answer to lacking defensive cooldowns is to spend a LOT more gcd healing, thus reducing your DPS significantly (if it doesn't destroy your resource outright).

 

I understand now some of you (along with BioWare) are now taking a revisionist stance that there is no DPS role for sorcs, only a hybrid one. It's kinda why most people are a bit shocked/outraged with their response. That wasn't the class they were playing.

[AlyxDinas]

At the end of the day I think we can all agree that getting a good dialog going about class issues is a good thing for everyone.

 

This is a much appreciated reply, with only a meager follow up question: would it be possible to encourage a more in depth reply from the designers to supplement the replies given from this round of questions? I think that would be a very real step to facilitating true communication and, to all intents and purposes, addressing the shortcomings of the replies given.

 

Please consider it. I believe it would be worthwhile.

[mmjarec]

So let me get it right. Sorcs want to spec dps and still be above average dps as well as able to heal like heal spec? Sorry bud but the fact you can heal needs to be countered with some nerf in anotjer area sure sorcs dps heals could use a buff but dont be able to expect a buff until full dps sins are at least on par witj your dps

[Icebergy]

In the DPS role, you do not. And it becomes a problem in this case when the answer to lacking defensive cooldowns is to spend a LOT more gcd healing, thus reducing your DPS significantly (if it doesn't destroy your resource outright).

 

I understand now some of you (along with BioWare) are now taking a revisionist stance that there is no DPS role for sorcs, only a hybrid one. It's kinda why most people are a bit shocked/outraged with their response. That wasn't the class they were playing.

 

On the contrary, when someone is DPS I expect them to DPS. But again, there has to be some trade off. One class cannot be the best at everything.

 

Lets put aside the PvE issue for a minute because its clear we are at an impasse. Assuming player skill is equal: How would you kill a player who has as much DPS as you, as much survivability as you, but they can also heal and you cannot?

[Andryah]

You should not be able to do more dps on a sniper or maurader than a sorcerer specced into dps.

 

Nonsense. You know why? Because even a Sorc speced into DPS can still heal. Until/unless they make it so Sorcs/Sages cannot heal if they spec into DPS.... your argument is baseless.

 

LOL you have absolutley no idea what you are talking about do you? I mean have you even read what you typed?

 

Irony, IMO.

[EricMusco]

Eric thank you for this update. Agree that not having your team available for immediate response does put them in catch up mode on Monday and 500 posts later.

 

As for the Feedback from the user community on Sage/Sorc. Some PENT up issues around Balance that many folks expected to see some sort of explanation/resolution. A large amount of people feel pretty strongly we have a balance issue no matter what DEV team weighted utility metrics are stating. The response (poorly written) was just the spark the exploded the powder keg of upset Sage/Sorc community waiting for months to see our class fixed.

 

For the record.. when you get Music videos, new catch phrases and even quoted responses.. you MIGHT just have a PROBLEM with the class. Your team really needs to take a second look at the issues at hand.

 

Please DO NOT make us "OP" but at least look at putting our class in line with our peer classes.

 

I think that is a fair assessment and we are going to try to work through that for sure. As Courtney stated a few minutes ago we are going to work with the combat to see if we can get some responses today to some of the issues raised in the thread.

 

Also, I actually think it is pretty cool that we got a music video, some memes, and a new acronym! Understanding of course that it came out of some displeasure from the community, which is something that we can work through. Someday I hope H2F can be the new orange pixel.

 

-eric

[oaceen]

Someday I hope H2F can be the new orange pixel.

 

-eric

 

what about some official H2F t-shirts?

Edited August 27, 2013 by oaceen

[Ansalem]

hrm he apologizes for the delay in response, but not for the response itself? I don't get it. I guess they can get away with disrespecting us with a condescending tone telling us to l2p h2f and that we have a perception problem and then expect us to just move on. BW you are dead to me

[Icebergy]

hrm he apologizes for the delay in response, but not for the response itself? I don't get it. I guess they can get away with disrespecting us with a condescending tone telling us to l2p h2f and that we have a perception problem and then expect us to just move on. BW you are dead to me

 

Honestly you are lucky you even got that with this kind of attitude. He comes in here to a very hostile environment and extends an olive branch and you throw this back in his face...

 

Don't let the door hit you on the way out, imo.

Edited August 27, 2013 by Icebergy

[kwestone]

Hey folks!

 

I apologize for the delay in response. In retrospect, I think us posting class top 3 answers on Fridays may be a poor decision. What that unfortunately creates is a situation where we can post answers and then at some point, need to go home. Leaving all of you on the forums to our silence, which is certainly not optimal.

 

Also, I know for Courtney the end of last week was a hectic one for her role on the team which made it difficult to take an active part in the thread. For myself, I wasn't in the country, I was in Germany for our Cantina event. Excuses aside, it was poorly timed on our behalf and I want to make sure we avoid that. I would rather us hold the answers for a day or two than kind of "drop the mic" on you after we answer.

 

This kind of thing is a great learning experience for us on what we can do to improve the class rep system. In both regards to you guys, the forum users, and us on the BioWare side in how we present information. I know this round didn't exactly make everyone throw a parade but it helps in making sure that we make this system better. At the end of the day I think we can all agree that getting a good dialog going about class issues is a good thing for everyone.

 

-eric

 

Eric-

I have a great deal of respect for you, and understand what a difficult position you are in. To be between a MMORPG fan base and the game developers is not an enviable position.

 

That being said, you responded to an Assassin thread over a month ago regarding Assassin tank spikiness, and told us that the issue was "being looked at". Shortly after that, you announced the class representatives deal, and gave us some hope that perhaps our issues would indeed be addressed.

 

I think there is a great deal of frustration from the assassin and shadow community because our mains are now pigeon holed into off tank, story mode content or just not even being able to raid or PVP ranked at all. We had hope that you would follow up on your words, and indeed fix the issues.

 

Also, in an interview on madsithasssassin.com, Austin Peckinpaugh said that assassins would be looked at if they were not performing.

 

News flash: They are not performing.

 

We are now more than 6 months into repeating ourselves on these forums, and I personally have unsubscribed. This is a result of your devs:

1. Breaking a class that many people that are YOUR CUSTOMERS enjoyed

2. Refusing to acknowledge that you broke it

3. Continuing to take our money

 

Now, if the game were played by the devs, and it were theirs and theirs alone, I could understand this. But when your CUSTOMERS are telling you that the product you are SELLING THEM is unsatisfactory, is it not customary to at least ATTEMPT to resolve the issue?

 

Right now, your developers have spent 6 months absolutely ignoring one of the Tank classes in the game. Why? Why not make your customers happy and simply tweak the armor rating? I just do not understand the stance here.

 

As far as DPS assassins go, please tell Austin Peckinpaugh his interview serves as a reminder to anyone that can read that he has some promises to keep.

 

Or dont. Hey, I am just one person right?

 

Again, I personally have a great deal of respect for this games artists, writers, community reps, 3d texture artists etc.

But your class designers are your weakest link. I will remain un-subbed from this game until I see a parse that shows Assassins on par with other classes (no sideways talk about some special metric) and I see raid groups with 2 assassins clearing NiM content.

 

I have been a Bioware customer since the first Baulder's Gate (one of my favorites) and it saddens me to see one or two guys sullying your reputation with not only me, but an entire community of online gamers.

 

Also, one last thing: Thank you for having the courage to address the community, and taking time out of your busy schedule to do so-

[Andryah]

I understand now some of you (along with BioWare) are now taking a revisionist stance that there is no DPS role for sorcs, only a hybrid one. It's kinda why most people are a bit shocked/outraged with their response. That wasn't the class they were playing.

 

You are incorrect in your understanding.. at least with respect to me.

 

Sorcs do have a DPS role.. but because they can also heal.. from a total balance of play perspective.. it would be inappropriate to give them the best DPS potential in the game. They are good at DPS when DPS speced, but not as good as a Sniper.. and that is the way it should be.

 

Now.. if you want to have a discussion about true balance in the context of Sorcs having DPS on par with Snipers... first agree that by definition then....Snipers get the same healing toolkit as Sorcs.

[oaceen]

hrm he apologizes for the delay in response, but not for the response itself? I don't get it. I guess they can get away with disrespecting us with a condescending tone telling us to l2p h2f and that we have a perception problem and then expect us to just move on. BW you are dead to me

 

i think they realize things didn't go over well and have said (in the last few minutes or so) that there will be some follow-up today

[thecoffeecup]

 

FACT: Sorc and Sage are hybrid classes.. and as such will never be top DPS.

 

[Disclaimer: PvE only]

 

Ah. The hybrid tax. Nobody *ever* wanted a hybrid for a raid, always just specialists. Why would you want someone to do something at 50% capacity at any time if they could stick to their speciality and perform 100%?

 

In my years of raid healing, I never, ever wanted or required DPS to heal themselves. Unless mechanics were ignored, the healers were fully capable of taking care of all healing. DPS healing themselves were considered a liability because they weren't doing their actual job.

 

Hybrids are, on the other hand, extremely handy in very small groups where you don't have all roles covered very well. I will admit to that.

 

Now why would you roll a pure DPS class if you aren't automatically best at DPS? Simple: you get 3 DPS specs. If the game is well-balanced and each tree is worthwhile, that means you can switch either for fun or to be able to adapt perfectly to each fight. Lot of AoE? Switch to your AoE spec. Movement? Switch to the movement-friendly spec. This is both great utility and flavor for those who just want to DPS and unfortunately usually completely ignored in these discussions.

 

In other words, "pure" DPS players give up on healing or tanking specs because they *want* to DPS and require maximum flexibility and variety in this role. At least this is how I think it should be.

Edited August 27, 2013 by thecoffeecup

[Icebergy]

 

We are now more than 6 months into repeating ourselves on these forums, and I personally have unsubscribed.

 

OH THE HORROR SIX MONTHS!? I didn't see you guys speaking up when the other two tanks had to play second fiddle to you guys for over a year while you were ridiculously OP.

[Aries_cz]

So let me get it right. Sorcs want to spec dps and still be above average dps as well as able to heal like heal spec? Sorry bud but the fact you can heal needs to be countered with some nerf in anotjer area sure sorcs dps heals could use a buff but dont be able to expect a buff until full dps sins are at least on par witj your dps

 

Nobody is asking for that. Please point me to where we ask for that.

While we are DPS specced, we would like to be on par with other DPS classes. We are lagging behind some 10-15% (source, TORParse). If we were to start healing ourselves to compensate for our lack of defense (instead of popping something like Undying Rage, Scrambling Field, or whatever), that difference would go even higher. However, in comparison with other dps/heal hybrids (Mercs/Operatives) we still get hit for greater numbers and we are easier to shut down.

[hadoken]

On the contrary, when someone is DPS I expect them to DPS. But again, there has to be some trade off. One class cannot be the best at everything.

 

Lets put aside the PvE issue for a minute because its clear we are at an impasse. Assuming player skill is equal: How would you kill a player who has as much DPS as you, as much survivability as you, but they can also heal and you cannot?

 

Well I tend to agree with the devs when it comes to PVP. Running off to heal to full is a viable option, because you're not in a race against other people DPSing in a line, colonial British style. That part of the outrage people are voicing I'm pretty opposed to. I'm only focusing on the PVE part. And I have no idea what the answer is, if it's some form of nerf to non heal specced healing (if that's really the concern) while giving them more cooldowns or what. Only that it IS an issue.

[Andryah]

In my years of raid healing, I never, ever wanted or required DPS to heal themselves. Unless mechanics were ignored, the healers were fully capable of taking care of all healing. DPS healing themselves were considered a liability because they weren't doing their actual job.

 

Suggestion: the way to approach this is to present a case for Sorcs/Sages specing into DPS to have that disable their healing while buffing their DPS.. through the spec. In principle.. the spec trees should be able to accomadate this, but it may be more difficult on the dev side then it appears to us.

 

In essence.. what I am saying is that a hybrid class can be spec'ed hybrid, DPS, or Heal.. but only if you go deep into the spec tree would you realize the full potential. It's also complex from a spec balance standpoint.. but an interesting concept IMO.

 

That said.. even though we can freely respec on the fly now days.. I don't really expect the devs will go this route. NOT when there are pure DPS classes (both ranged and melee) that can fill your requirement.

 

The thing to keep in mind from your end though... MMOs appear to be evolving away from "pure roles" and more into "jack of all trades" roles. GW2 and TSW being great recent examples of movement in the genre in this regard.

Edited August 27, 2013 by Andryah

[Ansalem]

I still don't agree that Friday's post was condescending. And even if it was, do you honestly believe that it was to the level of hatred that has been thrown back at them by the community? If anything, WE should be apologizing to THEM. Being a customer does not give people the right to act like a child.

 

Apparently a majority of the community disagrees with your view on friday's post as we can see by the meme's and videos that popped up over the weekend. And I absolutely think that original response warranted the backlash that we have seen on the forums. They managed to insult their most loyal customers and we are seeing folks posting that they have unsubbed over this stuff so I think its obvious BW should be the ones apologizing. And paying 15 bucks a month to be insulted isn't my thing so as a customer I expect service ya know what I mean?

[dscount]

Suggestion: the way to approach this is to present a case for Sorcs/Sages specing into DPS to have that disable their healing while buffing their DPS.. through the spec. In principle.. the spec trees should be able to accomadate this, but it may be more difficult on the dev side then it appears to us.

 

In essence.. what I am saying is that a hybrid class can be spec'ed hybrid, DPS, or Heal.. but only if you go deep into the spec tree would you realize the full potential. It's also complex from a spec balance standpoint.. but an interesting concept IMO.

 

The thing to keep in mind from your end though... MMOs appear to be evolving away from "pure roles" and more into "jack of all trades" roles. GW2 and TSW being great recent examples of movement in the genre in this regard.

 

That said.. even though we can freely respect on the fly now days.. I don't really expect the devs will go this route. NOT when there are pure DPS classes (both ranged and melee) that can fill your requirement.

 

Okay.. date stamp this. . I actually AGREE with you for once.

 

Fix the TREE and move the utility to the a Specific TREE. Want DPS? No problem.. you lost off healing. At the same time here is a NEW OFFENSIVE Tool to make you equal to your peers in DPS.

 

Healing still needs a "HoT" of some sort (not that weak one we have already), but something that is more on the move castable and packs a punch. If we are to "RUN AWAY" then at least let us HEAL on the move like OPS/MERC.

[thecoffeecup]

Suggestion: the way to approach this is to present a case for Sorcs/Sages specing into DPS to have that disable their healing while buffing their DPS.. through the spec. In principle.. the spec trees should be able to accomadate this, but it may be more difficult on the dev side then it appears to us.

 

In essence.. what I am saying is that a hybrid class can be spec'ed hybrid, DPS, or Heal.. but only if you go deep into the spec tree would you realize the full potential. It's also complex from a spec balance standpoint.. but an interesting concept IMO.

 

That said.. even though we can freely respect on the fly now days.. I don't really expect the devs will go this route. NOT when there are pure DPS classes (both ranged and melee) that can fill your requirement.

It *is* an interesting concept and I would love to try playing a true hybrid. Unfortunately, this is not the best choice for PvE, and with that realization, I think the argument for even having a hybrid tax falls apart.

 

I think something very important is being left out when discussing DPS though. The parses that people are looking at are almost always from the top players, and it includes lucky crits and such. I'm not sure it's entirely accurate to base ourselves completely on those numbers. On the other hand, balancing after the average player also means that we're not treating classes with a higher skill requirement fairly.

Edited August 27, 2013 by thecoffeecup

[Ansalem]

Vocal minority is the term you are looking for. You have no data to prove it is a majority.

 

I am one of their loyal customers and I did not find their post insulting.

 

you can check post by post its about 90% negative feedback with angry customers upset over the response. then you can check the videos and memes

[AlyxDinas]

I am one of their loyal customers and I did not find their post insulting.

 

You could just as possibly be an outlier. Your statement means nothing.

[Andryah]

You could just as possibly be an outlier. Your statement means nothing.

 

In fairness.. neither does Ansalems.... who counts multiple posts by the same person as unique complaints in his count.

 

This back and forth epeen on sizing of complaints is pointless.

Edited August 27, 2013 by Andryah