[Sniper Gunslinger Initiative] An opportunity to change Laze Target presents itself

[CJNJ]

The only reason is aoe hmm? Can snipers do that much dmg with engi? Heck no. "Unless your strategy involves stacking smashers", umm..that is ALWAYS the strategy. Try again. Your idea that a sniper would always beat a smash Mara 1v1 is ridiculous. A MM sniper would especially never do this, as it's white dmg is blocked by maras' very powerful dcs and armor. Lethality and Engi are better at ignoring dcs, but because of long build-up burst or for engi no clear defined burst, they don't deliver. Hybrid is the only spec that you could maybe kill a Mara of the same experience lvl with, as even though it does less overall dmg long-term than lethality, it has more clear, defined, burst combined with DoTs to get through dcs/armor than all the other specs.

Assuming NO LoS objects at all, no wals, anything. Also assuming Hybrid spec 4/16/26 with LT.

How I would open fight: Entrench - OS on top of self (Mara goes oh crap..do I stay back and do barely any dmg or waste my saber ward here, probably opting for 2nd option), apply dots and maybe cull. OS ends, knife stun, KB, and leg shot mara. Go through EP, SoS, Cull. Mara is back, pop medpac and flash bang. After this pop shield probe, than evasion at 25% and just go through normal DPs rotation. Yes the Mara will choke you, more than once. Whenever you see berserk - shockwave you run away or stun Mara till it's over, and no ultra smash.

 

Doing all this, CAN you beat a same experience lvl Mara? 99% chance not, *** they have SO much crit fueled, armor ignoring burst, that they will knock the crap out of you, their dcs adding the final, perfect, last touch.

 

As to MM being good against AP, I think not. You said yourself AP is tanky, and MM is terrible against tanks or anything tanky. It is just pure, white dmg. MM is best against healers, and weak DPs classes including other snipers. With lethality still being decent against those, it's long set-up overall good dps,and anti-tankness is best for pvp (not comparing to engi, it is good all around) with its mobility being the last touch. MM however, will be "best" for arenas with short burst, leading me to believe snipers will not be able to help as much as maras, pts, or even mercs in arenas. I might personally try hybrid in arenas, but the burst taking a while to set-up, the get back to burst, might cause it to get healed through too much just like full lethality.

 

Overall I also agree the outlook is dim for snipers when it comes to arenas.

 

K so MM is bad against tanks, which is agreed upon by most people, in the sense try can be shielded and defended, not because people have heavy armor and a buffed defensive CD.

 

As far as 1v1 goes with smashers(and ANY AOE spec for that matter, including AP) MM will always be on top. Period.

 

Your entire scenario is flat out wrong. In fact using Lethality or hybrid is an extremely bad idea due to most of your burst deriving from Cull, and any Mara could easily shut that down by rotating CDs(awe choke stealth and saber ward are more then effective in this regard). If your going to use OS to scare a melee away, then don't waste your Entrench. Hell if u are that afraid of getting CCed during it roll before u cast. If you think you can stop a smasher from smashing for 30 sec while the buff falls then u must be up against some tards. The idea for beating a Mara is generally to counter what CDs get used against you and to try to mitigate damage when ya can, and as far as fighting smashers goes MM will dominate.

 

P.S. NoTomorrow if u reading this update ur guide already!

Edited August 25, 2013 by CJNJ

[bryceskate]

I'm 100% supportive of the new Laze Target.

[BaineOs]

I'm 100% against the new laze.

 

I'm far more interested in having the indicator you're about to be hit with an ambush removed.

[Svii]

Laze Target is already underwhelming, increasing the CD 1-2 minutes just so it affects a stronger skill (Ambush, EP, TD in this case) will make it even MORE underwhelming. Might as well take it off my shortcut bar unless LT also buffs Surge or Bonus Damage or makes it a guaranteed hit.

 

I'd rather keep it in it's current state, than nerfing it

 

Also, by reading between the lines, BW thinks LT is a "powerful" PvP skill against tanks, since a crit is never shielded.. if they don't dodge it They have to come up with something better/creative for me to support a change in this instance.

[kvandertulip]

I agree with this change, but I don't think Bioware is going to go for it. With the advent of cooldown reset in arenas, it would mean we would have an autocrit every opener of every single round of arenas, and we already have more burst than most classes.

[artikulieren]

With an option to change it open, completely open in this case, as opposed to having a list of things to pick from. I am confounded by the choices available as such I can only say that I want it changed. But I am unsure of making it an auto-crit for the other 3 abilities mentioned. While the benefit of having an auto-crit Ambush/Takedown would most likely boost DPS I am more in favour of being "creative" with it, as stated by NoTomorrow.

 

 

To that end, if I were to go on a whim(aka "I haven't thought this through"), I'd suggest something like having Laze Target actually live up to what I feel it's name means. What if it had a 2 second channel and a 2min cd that would;

Place a non-cleansable debuff on target for up to a minute that allows for 2 instant-Snipes on the target to be cast out of cover. If the debuff duration runs out or the 2 snipes are taken, Laze Target goes on cooldown for 2 mins.

 

Perhaps it could do with an internal cd between shots, but I'm not really giving it much thought, more replying than anything else. The applications for this would imo improve both PvE and PvP. Although it is more biased towards MM, it would be nice for MM to get a little bit of mobility outside of cover, especially in fights like NiM Dash/T6. I don't see it as being an improvement to our rotation, just the ability to take potshots while on the move in heavily mobile fights. It would also be costly to let loose with 2 even with the energy reductions.

 

Also, having it be an on-target debuff as opposed to an on-player buff would limit it from being "2 snipes on enemy team" to "2 snipes on marked target that is and has healers aware of it".

 

As for having more on-demand burst, well I can't say it's the same as what TheJanitor suggested, but it's somewhat less OP imo than what PhoenixFyre suggested.

 

 

Then again this might be a stupid suggestion, and if so, kindly let me exit gracefully by not shooting me down and spitting on my burned carcass.

Edited August 25, 2013 by artikulieren

[Heal-To-Full]

it would mean we would have an autocrit every opener of every single round of arenas, and we already have more burst than most classes.

Compare yourself to the best, not to trash classes.

 

Not fixing snipers does nothing to improve the position of trash AC - their problem is lack of any reason to pick them over Mara or Jugg, the top dogs. Middle of the road classes like Snipers or PT aren't the problem.

The problems of trash classes should be addressed by buffing them to narrow the gap between top comps and trash comps. Ideally bringing all classes closer to the top class.

Edited August 25, 2013 by B-Dick

[KingofGob]

I personally have no issues with the current Laze Target but it isn't exciting at all. Anything to make it more fun is fine by me. I think an insta crit ep would make the most sense/works for each spec.

[Grimsblood]

As far as changing Laze Target...I think we are going the wrong way with it. Why do we have to have one ability that we can force a crit on every x amount of time. I think that restriction in and of itself makes the ability lack any interest.

 

I think something that would increase our Surge would be more interesting. Juggs/Guardians get a talent for this, but we could pick up an ability that increases it by 15 - 30% for x amount of time. It may encourage a greater interest in the crit stat and will synergize nicely with the all the specs with their +crit or surge talents.

 

 

Cluster bombs man... Not scatter bombs. It really isn't much actually, I'd say the extra 10 energy would be a nice bonus

 

Herpa derpa.....hah! I got all moist there for a second. My fault. If it gets attached to Cluster, then it wouldn't be too big of a deal. A bit of a buff to Hybrid though.

[shyroman]

The only reason is aoe hmm? Can snipers do that much dmg with engi? Heck no. "Unless your strategy involves stacking smashers", umm..that is ALWAYS the strategy. Try again. Your idea that a sniper would always beat a smash Mara 1v1 is ridiculous. A MM sniper would especially never do this, as it's white dmg is blocked by maras' very powerful dcs and armor. Lethality and Engi are better at ignoring dcs, but because of long build-up burst or for engi no clear defined burst, they don't deliver. Hybrid is the only spec that you could maybe kill a Mara of the same experience lvl with, as even though it does less overall dmg long-term than lethality, it has more clear, defined, burst combined with DoTs to get through dcs/armor than all the other specs.

Assuming NO LoS objects at all, no wals, anything. Also assuming Hybrid spec 4/16/26 with LT.

How I would open fight: Entrench - OS on top of self (Mara goes oh crap..do I stay back and do barely any dmg or waste my saber ward here, probably opting for 2nd option), apply dots and maybe cull. OS ends, knife stun, KB, and leg shot mara. Go through EP, SoS, Cull. Mara is back, pop medpac and flash bang. After this pop shield probe, than evasion at 25% and just go through normal DPs rotation. Yes the Mara will choke you, more than once. Whenever you see berserk - shockwave you run away or stun Mara till it's over, and no ultra smash.

 

Doing all this, CAN you beat a same experience lvl Mara? 99% chance not, *** they have SO much crit fueled, armor ignoring burst, that they will knock the crap out of you, their dcs adding the final, perfect, last touch.

 

As to MM being good against AP, I think not. You said yourself AP is tanky, and MM is terrible against tanks or anything tanky. It is just pure, white dmg. MM is best against healers, and weak DPs classes including other snipers. With lethality still being decent against those, it's long set-up overall good dps,and anti-tankness is best for pvp (not comparing to engi, it is good all around) with its mobility being the last touch. MM however, will be "best" for arenas with short burst, leading me to believe snipers will not be able to help as much as maras, pts, or even mercs in arenas. I might personally try hybrid in arenas, but the burst taking a while to set-up, the get back to burst, might cause it to get healed through too much just like full lethality.

 

Overall I also agree the outlook is dim for snipers when it comes to arenas.

 

Ummm, marksman snipers are the hard counter to smash with a 60% aoe reduction on entrench. Not to mention all of their roots and knockbacks, and a slow on one of their roots, and they can roll away if the smasher manages to get close.

 

Back on topic though, if they were to change only one ability, making series of shots an auto crit would help every spec, I understand this makes the marksman talent of increasing crit chance of sos less useful but that talent could be slightly reworked.

[greg_biochem]

I'm in favor of changing Lazed Target to make the next Ambush/EP/TD a crit.

[Atom_boy]

Paowee - mark me in favour of Laze adding a buff to Ambush/TD at cost of longer CD

[paowee]

I agree with this change, but I don't think Bioware is going to go for it. With the advent of cooldown reset in arenas, it would mean we would have an autocrit every opener of every single round of arenas, and we already have more burst than most classes.

 

OT: Electronet will also reset as well as Recklessness. Marauders' 5 thousand different defensive cooldowns will also reset >_<

[paowee]

Laze Target is already underwhelming, increasing the CD 1-2 minutes just so it affects a stronger skill (Ambush, EP, TD in this case) will make it even MORE underwhelming. Might as well take it off my shortcut bar unless LT also buffs Surge or Bonus Damage or makes it a guaranteed hit.

 

I'd rather keep it in it's current state, than nerfing it

 

Also, by reading between the lines, BW thinks LT is a "powerful" PvP skill against tanks, since a crit is never shielded.. if they don't dodge it They have to come up with something better/creative for me to support a change in this instance.

 

Aww Svii! Hmm.. What is your context, PvP or PvE? Also BW meant Targe Acquired/Illegal Mods, not laze target/smuggler's luck.

[paowee]

With an option to change it open, completely open in this case, as opposed to having a list of things to pick from. I am confounded by the choices available as such I can only say that I want it changed. But I am unsure of making it an auto-crit for the other 3 abilities mentioned. While the benefit of having an auto-crit Ambush/Takedown would most likely boost DPS I am more in favour of being "creative" with it, as stated by NoTomorrow.

 

 

To that end, if I were to go on a whim(aka "I haven't thought this through"), I'd suggest something like having Laze Target actually live up to what I feel it's name means. What if it had a 2 second channel and a 2min cd that would;

Place a non-cleansable debuff on target for up to a minute that allows for 2 instant-Snipes on the target to be cast out of cover. If the debuff duration runs out or the 2 snipes are taken, Laze Target goes on cooldown for 2 mins.

 

Perhaps it could do with an internal cd between shots, but I'm not really giving it much thought, more replying than anything else. The applications for this would imo improve both PvE and PvP. Although it is more biased towards MM, it would be nice for MM to get a little bit of mobility outside of cover, especially in fights like NiM Dash/T6. I don't see it as being an improvement to our rotation, just the ability to take potshots while on the move in heavily mobile fights. It would also be costly to let loose with 2 even with the energy reductions.

 

Also, having it be an on-target debuff as opposed to an on-player buff would limit it from being "2 snipes on enemy team" to "2 snipes on marked target that is and has healers aware of it".

 

As for having more on-demand burst, well I can't say it's the same as what TheJanitor suggested, but it's somewhat less OP imo than what PhoenixFyre suggested.

 

 

Then again this might be a stupid suggestion, and if so, kindly let me exit gracefully by not shooting me down and spitting on my burned carcass.

 

so between the new or old laze target, which one will you pick? or abstain?

[schooch]

I vote to keep it the way it is.

[ScytheEleven]

I'll vote for an auto-crit on Ambush (MM), EP (Eng), or Takedown (Leth)

[artikulieren]

so between the new or old laze target, which one will you pick? or abstain?

 

New Laze Target being the auto-crit Ambush/EP/TD on a 2 min cd?

 

I vote for change, but not for that change. So in this case, I suppose my only option left is to abstain.

[paowee]

Update.

 

 

COMPARISON TO THE SNIPER COMMUNITY QUESTIONS SHEET:

 

76% participation

(will count number of unique snipers/slingers in this thread.

will update this number every 24 hours)

 

VOTES:

I want LT/SL to affect abilities specific to the 3 specs

paowee / b'oard

lordahl

cjnj

b-dick

falver

lucky

telanis

mathegmaica

shyroman

kowabonga

masterjacer

darthrunkmonkey

jetreaperz

grimsblood

greg_biochem

Atom_boy

bryceskate

kvandertulip

kingofbob

scytheleven

notomorrow

 

I want LT/SL to affect Snipe only

forsakenking

flyburito

Svii

 

I want change but not this one so i'll stick with the current LT/SL

thejanitor

phoenixfyre

artikulerien

 

 

 

Edited August 25, 2013 by paowee

[MasterJacer]

K so MM is bad against tanks, which is agreed upon by most people, in the sense try can be shielded and defended, not because people have heavy armor and a buffed defensive CD.

 

As far as 1v1 goes with smashers(and ANY AOE spec for that matter, including AP) MM will always be on top. Period.

 

Your entire scenario is flat out wrong. In fact using Lethality or hybrid is an extremely bad idea due to most of your burst deriving from Cull, and any Mara could easily shut that down by rotating CDs(awe choke stealth and saber ward are more then effective in this regard). If your going to use OS to scare a melee away, then don't waste your Entrench. Hell if u are that afraid of getting CCed during it roll before u cast. If you think you can stop a smasher from smashing for 30 sec while the buff falls then u must be up against some tards. The idea for beating a Mara is generally to counter what CDs get used against you and to try to mitigate damage when ya can, and as far as fighting smashers goes MM will dominate.

 

P.S. NoTomorrow if u reading this update ur guide already!

You're basically right also, as the burst in Hybrid only comes from cull. MM being white dmg also is bad, and the only reason MM might be better is the entrench. Otherwise neither of them match the burst of rage.

Basically my point was you can try a lot of stuff, but you're not going to beat a mara. In fact, if i was fighting a mara in a wz i would run to find a healer ASAP.

[ZiggyTank]

Buff all three!

[TiPnDiP]

I vote yes.

 

It's a good trade off.

 

 

[edit]

 

To all 3 specs, to clarify lol

Edited August 25, 2013 by TiPnDiP

[casitas]

Let's make LT useful for all specs, though I think this change won't make this skill much better for pve/pvp environment and suddenly become great offensive cooldown. But since LT is almost useless as it is now, we should trade lesser cooldown for ambush/TD secured crit.

[MasterJacer]

deleted. Edited August 25, 2013 by MasterJacer

[CJNJ]

You're basically right also, as the burst in Hybrid only comes from cull. MM being white dmg also is bad, and the only reason MM might be better is the entrench. Otherwise neither of them match the burst of rage.

Basically my point was you can try a lot of stuff, but you're not going to beat a mara. In fact, if i was fighting a mara in a wz i would run to find a healer ASAP.

 

Yeah... rage's burst comes from the auto-crit AOE smash... Which means when ya got entrench up then they cannot burst ya. Smash has a minimum CD of 15 seconds. Hunker down lasts 20 seconds.

 

If you want to continue arguing how Hybrid is somehow better for killing smash please either PM me or make a thread.

 

Sorry paowee for the off topic stuff