[Sniper Gunslinger Initiative] An opportunity to change Laze Target presents itself

[Solar_Breeze]

Im going to propose something competely different from this.

 

A new ability that REPLACES Laze Target

...

 

 

I did always hope Laze would be something like this. It always struck me as it should mark the target with something which increased accuracy/armour pen against that target for a certain duration "as you are now hitting it in more vital places etc.."

 

Perhaps on the voting form we can have.

 

Change | Change but to something different | No Change

 

for me I would vote 1 | 1 | 0 as I would like to see it changed but would also rather it is changed to something completely different rather then just abilities added.

[Luckeyduckey]

Hey.

 

I was hoping we could get something like HK's "Assassinate." Why not make Laze Sight increase the activation time of Ambush by double (So for MM with 2 snipes = 3 seconds, rest for 5 seconds) and increase the damage and crit by 100%. So like, a super healer nuke. I'm still for the change, as I stated, but I would totally nerdgasm if I could have a long cast super ability I could hit on unsuspecting enemies. Just my thoughts.

[paowee]

If all it's going to be is still ONE auto-crit, that cooldown better not be above one and a half to two minutes or that would be a complete waste of redesign. If they want to make it more like Force Potency I would be ok with over two minutes if the cooldown had mutiple charges.

 

They don't intend to redesign it at all. It's just something that came up since we asked about it in the Sniper Q&A. Trust me buffing Snipers is not in the list of things to fix for BW. This is just a bone tied to a string they threw our way. We can grab and bite it off or ignore it and they'll just yank it away.

Edited August 26, 2013 by paowee

[yindaka]

I'm pro changing it to auto-crit for snipe, ambush or takedown. But maybe a lesser CD than 3 minutes, somewhere between 1,5 and 2 minutes and a small energy cost of 5 to 10 energy?

[islander]

Hey.

 

I was hoping we could get something like HK's "Assassinate." Why not make Laze Sight increase the activation time of Ambush by double (So for MM with 2 snipes = 3 seconds, rest for 5 seconds) and increase the damage and crit by 100%. So like, a super healer nuke. I'm still for the change, as I stated, but I would totally nerdgasm if I could have a long cast super ability I could hit on unsuspecting enemies. Just my thoughts.

 

they would never, ever allow that to happen.Too OP

[CaptCody]

I vote Yes for the change to 2 min CD with the crit on Ambush, Takedown, or Explosive Probe

 

Love,

 

Horice

[Lord_Viro]

I vote Yes for the change to 2 min CD with the crit on Ambush, Takedown, or Explosive Probe

 

Love,

 

Horice

 

count my vote yes for this as well

[paowee]

updated the op

[CarbonMerid]

Count my Vote as a Yes for the change ^_^

[SamuelAU]

I can see how having laze target affect a separate ability will help, but putting it on a longer cooldown is just taking a step backwards, granted it'd be a bonus for PvP but have little to no effect, if not a minus, for PvE.

 

I'm all for changing Laze Target/Smuggler's Luck but I'd rather throw a few more ideas around to try and find a better solution.

 

I want to see some changes to LT/SL but this one is still underwhelming for me.

[Ardarell_Solo]

updated the op

 

I think you forgot to count my Yes in for

 

Rickmyron

 

:-)

[ZetaaZ]

I want a change but i dont like the idea that is suggested. Imo it benefits MM lot more than lethality for example. Ambush crits almost double TD (instead of TD this could be changed for 100% crit on cull channel)... Personally id like to see changes for SOS for example. Since everyone is using it make it 100% crit for all tics.

[Svii]

I'm in this category:

"I want to see some changes to LT/SL but this one is still underwhelming for me"

 

[islander]

I mean, when you think about it, laze target is pretty underpowered as it stands now. Smashers can auto aoe crit every 20-25 seconds. I mean, if we are the two defeault pure DPS classes...laze target should be on a shorter CD as it stands now.

 

It's basically what? A 2k damage add every minute - when anotehr snipe in 1.4 seconds does the same damage?

 

The idea of trading it for a 2 min CD for an ambush is pretty fail. If anything, laze target CD should be dropped to 30 seconds. Maybe 40. This wouldn't dramatically increase our 'burst' in the classic sense like auto-critting an ambush would...but still improve and make it useful.

Edited August 27, 2013 by islander

[Heal-To-Full]

Best solution would be to have it apply to next Snipe, Ambush, Takedown, SoS, Cull or Explosive Probe - basically any next major attack short of Orbital Strike.

 

While Cull for a fully Leth specced sniper is fairly strong, the relative benefit it gets from auto-critting is considerably smaller. This is for two reasons: 1) Cull has a high crit chance as it is and no surge bonuses, 2) Cull is internal damage, so crit only helps a linear increase in its damage, not chance to bypass shield. You also have to consider that a Leth sniper's SoS or Ambush is not on the same level as a MM sniper's SoS or Ambush.

 

Basically, give us choice of what to do with it. Auto-crit OS would be OP, anything else isn't.

Sniper is known for being a high-attention class with flexible specs and dynamic rotations, and it's a great factor in its playing enjoyment, so it's best if our abilities support this freedom of choice.

Edited August 27, 2013 by B-Dick

[Kaos_KidSWTOR]

Most likely shunned. I doubt BW will change any ability based on player "submissions." They merely offered to consider changing Laze Target to Ambush/EP/TD (i guess since we asked about it) , but they'll have to increase its cooldown.

 

But in all honesty will anyone actually USE this change to Laze Target? Probably not since the CD increase will put it to damn near useless. So this new ability would completely replace Laze Target AND It has a CD that is fair (Well do you think my idea is balanced? is what im getting at). And it would increase damage on EVERY ability not just a few select abilities. It even gives Marksman a use for Takedown!

 

Put me in the 3rd catagorey. This proposed change is too underwhelming. It's making Laze Target even MORE useless than it already is.

Edited August 27, 2013 by Kaos_KidSWTOR

[Jekan]

I would love the change suggested. Since I play mainly lethality, snipe never gets used. But, why does the cooldown have to increase? As mentioned earlier, smash monkeys get a much shorter auto crit. While I would be OK with the changes suggested with the longer cooldown, I think the longer cooldown is the paragon of "meh", but if that's the bone we're getting thrown, well, this dog ain't gonna be too picky about what bone he can gnaw on.

[Jekan]

How about we be more creative? I would like laze target to give us versatilty in the way how we play our sniper.

 

Laze target upgrades your next Shatter Shot or Legshot damage to that of a Snipe, the ability itself will count as a snipe for purposes of FT proccing.

 

This would only be useful for MM, as they'd get the benefit of FT, eng/leth would not. Don't really like this suggestion, but I do loves me some NoTomorrow.

[paowee]

But in all honesty will anyone actually USE this change to Laze Target? Probably not since the CD increase will put it to damn near useless. So this new ability would completely replace Laze Target AND It has a CD that is fair (Well do you think my idea is balanced? is what im getting at). And it would increase damage on EVERY ability not just a few select abilities. It even gives Marksman a use for Takedown!

 

Put me in the 3rd catagorey. This proposed change is too underwhelming. It's making Laze Target even MORE useless than it already is.

 

Yep i'll write you down in abstain.

 

Hmm.. i don't understand why some people would think this will make Laze Target even more useless :|.

 

Lazed EP for Engi

Lazed TD for Full Lethality

 

Lazed Snipe for both Engi and Lethality seems to be the underwhelming version of Laze Target. MM gets better use for the current Laze Target as far as sustained DPS (according to namesrtough and ssfish math around ~30 DPS over 5+ minutes).

 

Now i don't know how Lazed EP/TD with the increased cooldown will parse as Engi or Lethality spec, but i'll make sure i get this point across when i forward this to eric.

 

offtopic: i'm quite glad the class rep program worked out better for us than it did for the sorcs. I really think things can get done in this game a little bit much better if people would post and try to talk to the devs in a more mature way. Like i am sure (from my past experience, prior to getting this "Class Rep" forum title, that Eric and AmberGreen do in fact forward player concerns and i've been talking with both of them for quite a while (before the class rep). Since BW left us a question, i'm 100% positive that our inputs will be forwarded and heard by the devs (who gave us our top 3 answers).

 

Inputs namely:

1) A majority of the Sniper/Slinger forum community like BW's proposal to Laze Target

2) A major concern would be "nerfing" the ability by giving it a 3min cooldown.

2.a) i'll inquire if they are going to do some internal testing to see how their new laze target fares to the old laze target in terms of sustained DPS.

3) End goal is to have a new laze target with a 2min cd. Not 2min30seconds and hopefully... definitely not 3min cd.

4) If the new laze target has a 3min cooldown i think... ill pass and keep the current one

 

Anyone else agree with the above points?

[Jekan]

Since BW left us a question, i'm 100% positive that our inputs will be forwarded and heard by the devs (who gave us our top 3 answers).

 

Inputs namely:

1) A majority of the Sniper/Slinger forum community like BW's proposal to Laze Target

2) A major concern would be "nerfing" the ability by giving it a 3min cooldown.

2.a) i'll inquire if they are going to do some internal testing to see how their new laze target fares to the old laze target in terms of sustained DPS.

3) End goal is to have a new laze target with a 2min cd. Not 2min30seconds and hopefully... definitely not 3min cd.

4) If the new laze target has a 3min cooldown i think... ill pass and keep the current one

 

Anyone else agree with the above points?

 

Agree 100%, my man. And don't forget to add me to your "in favor" group .

Edited August 27, 2013 by Jekan

[Kaos_KidSWTOR]

Yep i'll write you down in abstain.

 

Hmm.. i don't understand why some people would think this will make Laze Target even more useless :|.

 

Lazed EP for Engi

Lazed TD for Full Lethality

 

Lazed Snipe for both Engi and Lethality seems to be the underwhelming version of Laze Target. MM gets better use for the current Laze Target as far as sustained DPS (according to namesrtough and ssfish math around ~30 DPS over 5+ minutes).

 

Now i don't know how Lazed EP/TD with the increased cooldown will parse as Engi or Lethality spec, but i'll make sure i get this point across when i forward this to eric.

 

offtopic: i'm quite glad the class rep program worked out better for us than it did for the sorcs. I really think things can get done in this game a little bit much better if people would post and try to talk to the devs in a more mature way. Like i am sure (from my past experience, prior to getting this "Class Rep" forum title, that Eric and AmberGreen do in fact forward player concerns and i've been talking with both of them for quite a while (before the class rep). Since BW left us a question, i'm 100% positive that our inputs will be forwarded and heard by the devs (who gave us our top 3 answers).

 

Inputs namely:

1) A majority of the Sniper/Slinger forum community like BW's proposal to Laze Target

2) A major concern would be "nerfing" the ability by giving it a 3min cooldown.

2.a) i'll inquire if they are going to do some internal testing to see how their new laze target fares to the old laze target in terms of sustained DPS.

3) End goal is to have a new laze target with a 2min cd. Not 2min30seconds and hopefully... definitely not 3min cd.

4) If the new laze target has a 3min cooldown i think... ill pass and keep the current one

 

Anyone else agree with the above points?

 

The major reason why the changes would be useless is because of the CD change. If the CD is changed to like 45 seconds WITH the new changes. It would be more useful than now. but a 3 minute CD on an auto-crit? That's rediculous.

[Zoom_VI]

The major reason why the changes would be useless is because of the CD change. If the CD is changed to like 45 seconds WITH the new changes. It would be more useful than now. but a 3 minute CD on an auto-crit? That's rediculous.

 

Considering several classes have zero autocrits, and several don't even have any offensive cooldowns at all.

Yes I will give you that Laze target seems a little out there, but I don't think it should be changed solely because right now snipers and gunslingers are so far ahead right now compared to other ranged classes and even melee dps, its not even funny.

 

I mean really mando's instant cast is useless for dps, and the no-cost on next ability cooldown is only for when you have screwed up your resources. Every class in the game has buttons that several of their specs don't use - its par for the course.

[Zoom_VI]

The major reason why the changes would be useless is because of the CD change. If the CD is changed to like 45 seconds WITH the new changes. It would be more useful than now. but a 3 minute CD on an auto-crit? That's rediculous.

 

Actually come to think of it, the reason they are pushing the cooldown up so much is specifically so it doesn't increase dps. Snipers are already the highest parsing class, giving them more dps would be rediculus particularly when they just told the second lowest parsing class, that their low dps are just "perception problems"

[AngelFluttershy]

Most likely shunned. I doubt BW will change any ability based on player "submissions." They merely offered to consider changing Laze Target to Ambush/EP/TD (i guess since we asked about it) , but they'll have to increase its cooldown.

They don't intend to redesign it at all. It's just something that came up since we asked about it in the Sniper Q&A. Trust me buffing Snipers is not in the list of things to fix for BW. This is just a bone tied to a string they threw our way. We can grab and bite it off or ignore it and they'll just yank it away.

First off I'd like to say I'm not picking on Paowee or anyone else, just his above posts hold a theme that a few posters seem to be supporting.

 

I'm getting the feeling that some of the players are supporting the brainstormed change to Laze Target that the Devs threw out because they'd take anything over nothing. As Paowee said, they threw us a bone on a string and we're chasing it, but is that how we really want to treat this opportunity? The Devs answered our question about Laze Target and showed that they'd be open for altering the ability a bit to better fit its designed purpose, but many of you are acting like the whole combat team sat down and gave us an ultimatum. I'm sure whoever sat down and wrote that question put that out there just to show us something they could do with it, not something they would or wanted to do with it in the first place.

 

I would suggest we take advantage of this opportunity, not just stop here. The community team gave us the platform to ask questions, the combat team answered our questions with an open-ended response for us to retort, and now its up to us to continue the discussion. Why stop at a suggestion they just came up with to flesh out their answer? Why can't we have a developing conversation about the purpose of Laze Target and what alterations could make it fit its designed purpose better? We already know that class balancing won't be coming until 2.5-2.6, so we have a lot of time to hold a strong discussion that would help the ability develop into something we can all be very happy with.

 

Let's put in the extra effort the combat team is and continue the discussion so we can go back to them with some really great input. Not only could this improve Laze Target beyond what was initially suggested, but this would set a precedent for the future where more back and forth between the combat team and player community could take place. We've got nothing to lose here and everything to gain.

[Heal-To-Full]

I'm getting the feeling that some of the players are supporting the brainstormed change to Laze Target that the Devs threw out because they'd take anything over nothing. As Paowee said, they threw us a bone on a string and we're chasing it, but is that how we really want to treat this opportunity?

Well, it's better than nothing.

 

If nothing else, I hope at least some change coming out of this is a good thing. Good start. Precedent for further Dev-Player cooperation.

 

Why can't we have a developing conversation about the purpose of Laze Target and what alterations could make it fit its designed purpose better?

Because it's Laze Target.

Really. If I were a developer, I wouldn't want to have long talks about the purpose of Laze Target. For you it's one of your only two offensive cooldowns... for me it's one of your 40 possible abilities and one of 150 between all classes.

 

Let's put in the extra effort the combat team is and continue the discussion so we can go back to them with some really great input. Not only could this improve Laze Target beyond what was initially suggested...

Well, I posted my suggested improvement a few times here:

 

I believe the PvP game needs an offensive cooldown that can, once in a while, get through sustained defenses. Something that can actually kill someone who, at their 25% hitpoints, otherwise remains still invincible due to guard and heals.

 

Allowing LT-buffed shots to ignore Guard - and preferably ignore player defenses altogether, no avoidance, no mitigation - would let it serve this purpose. It won't make snipers parse any higher, mobs don't guard one another. It will simply give Arenas that all-important execute. Not the fake "execute" that only takes the target from 25% to 20%; just something other than Smash that can actually finish a player off so acid doesn't have to.

 

Total DPS doesn't change, not more than by a few points. It just makes sure this damage comes to the target and not to the ever-healed tank. After all, aren't Snipers supposed to hit who they meant to hit?