Vanguard // Powertechs Top 3 Answers!

[Pilgrim_Grey]

everyone saying that we should calm down and present logical arguments instead of pages of perception problem:

 

have you not followed these forums or the pts ones since 2.0? have we not presented oodles of logical arguments, metrics, and examples of how the class is under performing? havent we tried being civil? the answer is yes. the reason we the gag is circulating is because obviously engaging in logical arguments doesnt work with the devs; they dont see the issues. so the sad thing is, the only way to make them aware of how wrong they are is to continuously ridicule them until they realize how stupid the answers and their train of thought is/was/will be

 

and anyone saying that the questions were worded poorly:

 

would it have mattered? nope. go check out the sorc questions. worded better, WORSE response.

 

The original three questions were civil, which is a good thing. I just think it would have helped to be more focused, and I'm not the only one saying it, either. I have my doubts as to whether players would have been satisfied with the responses if the questions had been stronger, but it woudn't have hurt.

 

As for the civility issue, you won't get anything done by throwing insults or throwing around walls of text with "perception problem." If the devs and community people don't already skim past those (and maybe ignore these threads because of them), I wouldn't be surprised. Lack of civility doesn't lead to much at all, no matter how frustrated you are.

 

For the record, I understand the difficulties for players and devs with this. I came from City of Heroes and was a vocal voice for a balance change for a shapeshifting class called Kheldians. They finally worked on Kheldiansand I actually had some private message exchanges with the dev in charge of the changes. He was pretty clear on what he was trying to do and where he was going to hold back for a bit to see if his changes were enough to balance things out, but he was leery of talking too much with those in the community, because players in any MMO tend to pick apart anything a dev says, whether they meant it that way or not. And it's true, we do tend to do that.

 

The devs here don't seem as communicative or responsive (particularly on the PTS forums), but keeping it civil is worthwhile. But if you're too fed up with things, I can understand giving up for awhile. This is a game, after all.

[Botho]

Mehhhhhhhhhhhhh

[Ottoattack]

The original three questions were civil, which is a good thing. I just think it would have helped to be more focused, and I'm not the only one saying it, either. I have my doubts as to whether players would have been satisfied with the responses if the questions had been stronger, but it woudn't have hurt.

 

As for the civility issue, you won't get anything done by throwing insults or throwing around walls of text with "perception problem." If the devs and community people don't already skim past those (and maybe ignore these threads because of them), I wouldn't be surprised. Lack of civility doesn't lead to much at all, no matter how frustrated you are.

 

For the record, I understand the difficulties for players and devs with this. I came from City of Heroes and was a vocal voice for a balance change for a shapeshifting class called Kheldians. They finally worked on Kheldiansand I actually had some private message exchanges with the dev in charge of the changes. He was pretty clear on what he was trying to do and where he was going to hold back for a bit to see if his changes were enough to balance things out, but he was leery of talking too much with those in the community, because players in any MMO tend to pick apart anything a dev says, whether they meant it that way or not. And it's true, we do tend to do that.

 

The devs here don't seem as communicative or responsive (particularly on the PTS forums), but keeping it civil is worthwhile. But if you're too fed up with things, I can understand giving up for awhile. This is a game, after all.

 

There is a large difference between we will look into it. Or the class is supposed to do specific objective and telling the community they have a perspective problem. If they wanted things to be civil, maybe they should have considered not insulting players or actually responding to the questions.

[MarkXXIV]

Looks like I just saved 15 bucks a month.

[Gloomycakes]

I better unsub,

 

I've got perception issues and failed to h2f

 

/give-up

 

Here I thought class representatives were a good idea, I feel bad for all the effort these poor people put into it.

[Skolops]

I better unsub,

 

I've got perception issues and failed to h2f

 

/give-up

 

Here I thought class representatives were a good idea, I feel bad for all the effort these poor people put into it.

 

I honestly am not sure why anyone thought it was a good idea. The fact is that one way or another, they were going to have to tell people things they didn't like to hear in response to questions. No matter what they said, it was going to aggravate a lot of people. It's kindof a lose-lose program to be honest.

[OldSpiceSwag]

I honestly am not sure why anyone thought it was a good idea. The fact is that one way or another, they were going to have to tell people things they didn't like to hear in response to questions. No matter what they said, it was going to aggravate a lot of people. It's kindof a lose-lose program to be honest.

 

you're turning into courier....... everytime you post i feel obligated to call you out, call you stupid, and tell you why youre wrong.

 

1. youre wrong

 

2. youre stupid

 

3. let me direct you to the sentinel and sniper answers, the 2 best damage dealers without a doubt in pve and 2 of the 3 optimal damage dealers in arenas. go check out what their answers were. you certainly wont be seeing "l2hytf," youll be seeing more of "we recognize this as a problem and have a gameplan to fix it"

 

there is no excuse

[IronmanSS]

After reading the Vanguard/Sorc Dev responses, my lack of perception was revealed. As I did with my fellow Sins, I will now enlighten you to the true design of what the Combat Team envisions for all "Hybrid" ACs:

 

PvE DPS Vanguards who aren't quite cutting it with the DPS - L2P, you aren't utilizing your abilities to the fullest. If your Ops boss is about to enrage due to your lackluster DPS, USE YOUR TAUNTS. You're leaving half of your utility on the table if you aren't taunting the boss and giving the MT a break now and then.

 

Also, what are you doing in anything but Ion Cell? Swap to TANK STANCE so you can GUARD The Sentinel. This will enable The Sentinel to DPS "all out" without having to hold themselves back like they normally do. Also, if there are any adds that would train on The Sentinel - you are meant to TAUNT them so that The Sentinel will not be interrupted and can concentrate on doing the DPS that you could never come up with anyhow. Also, use Burnout more.

 

WE HAVE BEEN DOING IT ALL WRONG. VANGUARD DPS IS FIXED, YOU HAVE BURNOUT - L2P.

Edited August 25, 2013 by IronmanSS

[Skolops]

you're turning into courier....... everytime you post i feel obligated to call you out, call you stupid, and tell you why youre wrong.

 

1. youre wrong

 

2. youre stupid

 

3. let me direct you to the sentinel and sniper answers, the 2 best damage dealers without a doubt in pve and 2 of the 3 optimal damage dealers in arenas. go check out what their answers were. you certainly wont be seeing "l2hytf," youll be seeing more of "we recognize this as a problem and have a gameplan to fix it"

 

there is no excuse

 

Nonsense. The sentinel answers were nearly as bad. Their explanation for the intention behind each of the three specs not only doesn't match the reality in the game, it was also nonsensical and garbled.

 

The truth is that people who play games with classes will always feel that their class is in need of work, regardless of how good or bad they objectively are. If you play Protoss in Starcraft, you think Protoss is too weak. If you play Terran, you think Protoss is fine or strong but Terran is weak. That's the nature of gamers. It's also far and away the nature of those most likely to be using the class forums, since folks don't spend a lot of time posting in there to say how much they love their class. It's generally a place for complaints and asking for improvements.

 

My point is that in agreeing to answer questions selected by the community, they put themselves in a position where any answer was not going to be good enough for many people.

 

Now I agree that the last two were particularly weak. There's no question. That doesn't change the fact that I really don't believe doing this could produce anything but negative reactions, because there is no way that they were ever going to go ahead and buff any class in any particularly significant way.

[Ottoattack]

I honestly am not sure why anyone thought it was a good idea. The fact is that one way or another, they were going to have to tell people things they didn't like to hear in response to questions. No matter what they said, it was going to aggravate a lot of people. It's kindof a lose-lose program to be honest.

 

I was not waiting for or expecting a response saying: "class has problems we are going to fix them." But when the community keeps loading the class forms with facts that the class is under performing and I have the devs come and tell me the class have 30 meters atks and burn out there is a serious problem. To put it simple, they have never played or seen the class being played before. To add assault to injury they tell the community as a whole that we have a "perception problem." Do I feel aggravated? Kind of.

 

On the bright side, I do not see any future in classes being balanced as devs are incompetent and ignorant. So I pre know the future of arenas and PvP. There is no reason to stay in the game.

Edited August 25, 2013 by Ottoattack

[OldSpiceSwag]

Nonsense. The sentinel answers were nearly as bad. Their explanation for the intention behind each of the three specs not only doesn't match the reality in the game, it was also nonsensical and garbled.

 

The truth is that people who play games with classes will always feel that their class is in need of work, regardless of how good or bad they objectively are. If you play Protoss in Starcraft, you think Protoss is too weak. If you play Terran, you think Protoss is fine or strong but Terran is weak. That's the nature of gamers. It's also far and away the nature of those most likely to be using the class forums, since folks don't spend a lot of time posting in there to say how much they love their class. It's generally a place for complaints and asking for improvements.

 

My point is that in agreeing to answer questions selected by the community, they put themselves in a position where any answer was not going to be good enough for many people.

 

Now I agree that the last two were particularly weak. There's no question. That doesn't change the fact that I really don't believe doing this could produce anything but negative reactions, because there is no way that they were ever going to go ahead and buff any class in any particularly significant way.

 

Hey folks!

 

PvP

 

 

 

The stacking Annihilator/Merciless buff and the stacking buff from Juyo Form are both too short at their current 15 second durations. We will increase the duration of these buffs to give Marauders/Sentinels more time to get back into action before needing to start back up on their long entry ramp. As for a faster way to ramp up, we plan to give you something to help in this regard, but it will not be coming anytime soon. We may also experiment with decrementing the stacks on expiration, rather than removing all of them at once, but we cannot make any promises at this time that you will ever see it decrement stacks in the Live game.

 

PvE

 

 

 

If Rage/Focus had the best burst damage, the best AoE damage, and the best sustained damage; then there would be very little to no incentive for a Marauder/Sentinel to ever spec anything else. Rage/Focus is the top burst spec for a Marauder/Sentinel, and that is by design. Right now, it is also the top AoE damage spec for Marauders/Sentinels (by design) – but that is something we would like to get away from in the future. Ideally, any damage spec should be able to deal formidable AoE damage when necessary (and should prefer to leave most AoE attacks out of their rotation in a single-target fight). It will take some time to right this ship, as it has already sailed and must come back to port for repairs (so don’t expect Annihilation/Watchman and Carnage/Combat to be pumping out massive AoE DPS or for Rage/Focus to get a huge AoE DPS nerf next patch).

 

Annihilation/Watchman is intended to be the top sustained damage spec for Marauders/Sentinels, while Carnage/Combat is meant to be better sustained damage than Rage/Focus (but worse than Annihilation/Watchman) and better burst damage than Annihilation/Watchman (but worse than Rage/Focus). As a result, the top damage over an extended period should go to Annihilation/Watchman. The top damage in a short fight should go to Rage/Focus. Carnage/Combat should hold its own in both situations, while not being the best at either – think of its strength as versatility.

 

Right now, the goal for Rage/Focus in PvE is to be good burst damage and good AoE damage, and it already does very well in these respects. In the future, when the other specs have improved ways to do AoE damage, then you can expect the sustained damage gap between Rage/Focus and Carnage/Combat to shrink a little bit. In summary, yes we know that Rage/Focus is the worst Marauder spec for single-target sustained damage because that is exactly how we designed it. Unfortunately, because target dummies never drop in health you cannot use them as a 1:1 replacement for Operation boss encounters. Only certain specs (Rage/Focus is not one of them, but Carnage/Combat is) can use execute abilities on a target dummy. It is also unlikely that you are testing on a target dummy with your own personal armor-debuffer (which you should definitely have against a real raid boss). So that 9% gap you may be seeing on target dummies is closer to approximately 4% in reality.

 

All

 

 

 

We agree that it seems an odd design decision was made here. While Bloodthirst/Inspiration and Predation/Transcendence are active, we see no reason why you shouldn’t be able to build Fury/Centering stacks. However, being allowed to build Fury/Centering during Berserk/Zen would be a substantial damage increase that would only serve to widen the gap between Marauders/Sentinels and the rest of the pack that they are already leading. We may change it in the future, but for now Berserk/Zen will continue to block Fury/Centering generation while we will make changes to allow the building of Fury/Centering during Bloodthirst/Inspiration and Predation/Transcendence.

 

not nearly as horrible. not even close. not even close to being close.

[Kynesis]

Wow... that is some seriously impressive trolling BW.

 

Months of work and discussions, theory crafting, building up peoples hopes and leading them to elect somebody to stand up and speak on their behalf in an officially sponsored capacity... and then slap them down with a trusty old "LOL L2P noobs".

 

It's tempting to re-address the points of the discussion, like why being able to shoot back with Shoulder Cannon while stunned (and almost certainly being the focus target, particularly in a ranked / competitive environment) is meaningless... but that kind of answer isn't one that should need to be given to somebody who understands how PvP works, in any mmo.

 

The same needs to be said of a dps class relying on heals to get them out of a bad situation... I honestly and in all seriousness can not believe that this answer could be given by a professional game designer or even a moderately experienced player.

... and gap closers / mobility vs pot shots... just... wow. That's some spaced out thinking.

 

I take it that there's no room for debate on this, those answers sound rather final.

[kennethdale]

I am sorry to say this and will surely get flamed but take a step back and honestly look at those questions. They are extremely accusatory and demanding and in one case referenced something the devs are already trying to fix, what other kind of response could be feasibly expected? While the devs SHOULD have thicker skin, they are people and clearly do not like being told that they are doing a bad job, but would you? Most people who are old enough to have worked a few jobs will have undoubtedly worked in customer service and have had a customer come and complain and no matter how reasonable their complaint if they said it in a way that just set you off how likely would you be to give that persons complaint real and thoughtful consideration? In the end, learn from this, move forward and put together better questions for the PT side.

[Ottoattack]

I am sorry to say this and will surely get flamed but take a step back and honestly look at those questions. They are extremely accusatory and demanding and in one case referenced something the devs are already trying to fix, what other kind of response could be feasibly expected? While the devs SHOULD have thicker skin, they are people and clearly do not like being told that they are doing a bad job, but would you? Most people who are old enough to have worked a few jobs will have undoubtedly worked in customer service and have had a customer come and complain and no matter how reasonable their complaint if they said it in a way that just set you off how likely would you be to give that persons complaint real and thoughtful consideration? In the end, learn from this, move forward and put together better questions for the PT side.

 

As a starter, questions need to be aggressive, or you will get zero response. I don't see anything in the questions that are demeaning or accusatory. Why should the devs have thicker skin?

 

1- They are a professionals presenting a company. This is not 2 players arguing class effectiveness in the general forums.

2- Part of the aggressiveness is a result of lack of communication for over 4 month.

3- Part of the aggressiveness is due to the class being significantly under performing for over 4 month.

 

As a professional who work in a service company, I want to remind you that the customer is ALWAYS right. Meaning, no matter how aggressive the customer gets (as long as there are no direct insults), as a professional, you need to respond in a professional manner. BW coming out and telling us we have "perspective problem" is way out of line, regardless of how aggressive the questions are. If I do this with my clients' (no matter how wrong they are) I will get fired. Maybe BW should do the same.

Edited August 25, 2013 by Ottoattack

[kennethdale]

As a starter, questions need to be aggressive, or you will get zero response. I don't see anything in the questions that are demeaning or accusatory. Why should the devs have thicker skin?

 

1- They are a professionals presenting a company. This is not 2 players arguing class effectiveness in the general forums.

2- Part of the aggressiveness is a result of lack of communication for over 4 month.

3- Part of the aggressiveness is due to the class being significantly under performing for over 4 month.

 

As a professional who work in a service company, I want to remind you that the customer is ALWAYS right. Meaning, no matter how aggressive the customer gets (as long as there are no direct insults), as a professional, you need to respond in a professional manner. BW coming out and telling us we have "perspective problem" is way out of line, regardless of how aggressive the questions are. If I do this with my clients' (no matter how wrong they are) I will get fired. Maybe BW should do the same.

 

Your reasoning is 100% flawed. The sentinel/snipers were not aggressive and got legitimate responses. VGs and Sorcs were and got **** answers. Cause and effect. As for your customer service thing, they were in no way out of line. They said this is a perspective problem NOT l2p scrubs. There is a huge difference and this was clearly worded very carefully. Did I say anything about how you would respond, or did I ask whether you would give their complaints thoughtful and reasonable consideration. Because there is a difference. In the end, I don't care if you take my advice but I guarantee going forward with your current line of thinking only gets similar responses.

 

I don't know who you work for but I work for Nordstrom,a company renowned for its customer service but our motto is specifically not the customer is always right, it is use good judgment. This is because there are many, many times when the customer is flat out wrong. Depending on the circumstance you should use your best judgment to decide whether it is right to accommodate them or not. Saying the customer is always right means that I could go into your place of business and demand I be given your services or goods at no charge and because I am a customer I am right. Its absolutely flawed. The other thing many of you fail to recognize is just how small a percentage of the player base we forum goers are. Even if we all quit BW would still have one of the largest player bases.

Edited August 25, 2013 by kennethdale

[OldSpiceSwag]

Your reasoning is 100% flawed. The sentinel/snipers were not aggressive and got legitimate responses. VGs and Sorcs were and got **** answers. Cause and effect. As for your customer service thing, they were in no way out of line. They said this is a perspective problem NOT l2p scrubs. There is a huge difference and this was clearly worded very carefully. Did I say anything about how you would respond, or did I ask whether you would give their complaints thoughtful and reasonable consideration. Because there is a difference. In the end, I don't care if you take my advice but I guarantee going forward with your current line of thinking only gets similar responses.

 

who wants to bet that players such as this idiot are actually hired bioware plants to alleviate the sweeping tide of negative comments?

 

either that or some people seriously need help

[kennethdale]

who wants to bet that players such as this idiot are actually hired bioware plants to alleviate the sweeping tide of negative comments?

 

either that or some people seriously need help

 

Oh yes. You got me. I am a plant AND an idiot. It couldn't possibly be that I was hoping some constructive criticism would possibly lead to getting answers and fixes that are needed. Nope. Just trying to bash you. Good call. /sarcasm

[OldSpiceSwag]

Oh yes. You got me. I am a plant AND an idiot. It couldn't possibly be that I was hoping some constructive criticism would possibly lead to getting answers and fixes that are needed. Nope. Just trying to bash you. Good call. /sarcasm

 

lol why in the world would you think that would work

[Ottoattack]

Your reasoning is 100% flawed. The sentinel/snipers were not aggressive and got legitimate responses. VGs and Sorcs were and got **** answers. Cause and effect. As for your customer service thing, they were in no way out of line. They said this is a perspective problem NOT l2p scrubs. There is a huge difference and this was clearly worded very carefully. Did I say anything about how you would respond, or did I ask whether you would give their complaints thoughtful and reasonable consideration. Because there is a difference. In the end, I don't care if you take my advice but I guarantee going forward with your current line of thinking only gets similar responses.

 

I don't know who you work for but I work for Nordstrom,a company renowned for its customer service but our motto is specifically not the customer is always right, it is use good judgment. This is because there are many, many times when the customer is flat out wrong. Depending on the circumstance you should use your best judgment to decide whether it is right to accommodate them or not. Saying the customer is always right means that I could go into your place of business and demand I be given your services or goods at no charge and because I am a customer I am right. Its absolutely flawed. The other thing many of you fail to recognize is just how small a percentage of the player base we forum goers are. Even if we all quit BW would still have one of the largest player bases.

 

I am not sure what are you defending exactly? Even if the players were out of line, you are talking about mostly unorganized fan boys talking to a professional company. The professional company need to be professional and respond professionally. This is unacceptable customer service.

 

Now if we all quit would that significantly hurt the population base? No. But, many people are not happy with the this customer service, among other things. It is lost income and bad PR. Lose-lose situation that could have been easily avoided by responding to player concerns appropriately.

 

BTW, why on would the sentinel or snipers questions be aggressive?! They have no issues what so ever aside from QoL issues and annihilation marauder performance in PvP. Sorc and PTs have many serious issues, thus the questions and the players are much more aggressive. Expect the same tone in sin, merc questions.

Edited August 25, 2013 by Ottoattack

[ChickenWangs]

I honestly am not sure why anyone thought it was a good idea. The fact is that one way or another, they were going to have to tell people things they didn't like to hear in response to questions. No matter what they said, it was going to aggravate a lot of people. It's kindof a lose-lose program to be honest.

 

But if they knew anything about the game, they would actually listen to the class reps. It's not an issue of the reps, it's an issue with the devs.

 

I used to avidly defend the game devs because it seemed like they had some idea of what they were doing. A couple of nerfs to vanguard were deserved. Then they hammered the nail all the way into the ground. Why? There had not been a single complaint about VG/PT in months. If there is no issue, then a class won't be complained about. You never EVER saw tactics being whined about. Why? Because almost ever player could easily defeat a spec. So to a certain degree, perception is a valuable tool when it comes to MMOs.

[Skolops]

But if they knew anything about the game, they would actually listen to the class reps. It's not an issue of the reps, it's an issue with the devs.

 

I used to avidly defend the game devs because it seemed like they had some idea of what they were doing. A couple of nerfs to vanguard were deserved. Then they hammered the nail all the way into the ground. Why? There had not been a single complaint about VG/PT in months. If there is no issue, then a class won't be complained about. You never EVER saw tactics being whined about. Why? Because almost ever player could easily defeat a spec. So to a certain degree, perception is a valuable tool when it comes to MMOs.

 

This reasoning is, I think, deeply flawed. They should listen to the class reps? Certainly not without an extremely critical eye. By the very nature of the "position," class reps are going to suggest all kinds of things that would make their class too strong. I don't say this to disparage the players of this game by any means - i'm one of them after all. However, people are people. Given the chance to speak about something that they have a vested interest in, most people are going to "take advantage of it."

 

Sure, they shouldn't be ignored, but they shouldn't just be listened to as if their suggestions are golden. Do you want evidence? Just look at the threads in the PTS forums.

 

Sorcerers are underpowered.

Powertechs are underpowered.

Mercenaries? Also underpowered.

Operative DPS are underpowered.

Assassins are underpowered.

 

EVERYONE is underpowered!!!!

 

The point is that everyone is saying their class is broken and underpowered. It's the way it works in these games. The questions were all the same: every class just had 3 questions about how their class is underpowered in one way or another. That's why they can't simply listen to the reports of class reps or anyone else. They need to see more than that.

[OldSpiceSwag]

This reasoning is, I think, deeply flawed. They should listen to the class reps? Certainly not without an extremely critical eye. By the very nature of the "position," class reps are going to suggest all kinds of things that would make their class too strong. I don't say this to disparage the players of this game by any means - i'm one of them after all. However, people are people. Given the chance to speak about something that they have a vested interest in, most people are going to "take advantage of it."

 

Sure, they shouldn't be ignored, but they shouldn't just be listened to as if their suggestions are golden. Do you want evidence? Just look at the threads in the PTS forums.

 

Sorcerers are underpowered.

Powertechs are underpowered.

Mercenaries? Also underpowered.

Operative DPS are underpowered.

Assassins are underpowered.

 

EVERYONE is underpowered!!!!

 

The point is that everyone is saying their class is broken and underpowered. It's the way it works in these games. The questions were all the same: every class just had 3 questions about how their class is underpowered in one way or another. That's why they can't simply listen to the reports of class reps or anyone else. They need to see more than that.

 

lol BECAUSE THEY ALL ARE THATS THE ISSUE

[Ansalem]

Heh with the responses that sorcs and vgs got from BW I can only imagine what we are going to see when the merc questions hit. They got a lot more than 3 questions worth of problems so I can hardly wait for BW to tell mercs to l2p h2f and that they have a perception problem. With these insulting responses I think its safe to say BW hates BHs

[Skolops]

lol BECAUSE THEY ALL ARE THATS THE ISSUE

 

I hope you realize the utter absurdity of that statement.

 

A British writer Gk Chesterton once wrote that, given a man who many people report to be fat and many others report to be thin, the reality is that he is very likely a man of average weight.

 

If players from every class genuinely feel underpowered, then the reality is very likely that, for the most part, they are all even.

 

That doesn't mean there are not problems to be fixed. My point is that given the kind of across the board conflicting feedback they are are getting, what else do you expect them to think?

[IronmanSS]

Sorcerers are underpowered.

Powertechs are underpowered.

Mercenaries? Also underpowered.

Operative DPS are underpowered.

Assassins are underpowered.

 

EVERYONE is underpowered!!!!

 

The point is that everyone is saying their class is broken and underpowered...

 

Well, pretty much theres universal agreement that Op healers are OP, Smash is OP, Marauders and Snipers are OP. It doesn't really matter if you look at those things as OP, or everything else as UP it means the same thing. Since the Devs haven't addressed anything that's OP for 5 months to a year, whining that things are UP is all that remains.