- Official Operative Concerns Thread -

[Cordorian]

I just say, a guild from my server, had the world first on S&V NiM rolling with a sorcerer and merc healer. So they a good enough in progression pve....

[JohnElias]

With the recent Scoundrel questions being answered, I am surprised our thread is on the second page. It shows that not many Ops are left playing, and for good reason. At first sight of the questions I was disappointed. It wasn't what I really wanted to hear.

 

It was your typical "working as intended, coming soon" mumbojumbo, but I reread the answers and was kind of left with a love/hate relationship.

 

 

Points I liked:

 

 

- A faster cast time and more efficient way to apply Orbital Strike with a lowered cool down and lowered energy cost (From my understanding, please correct me)

 

- They are aware of survivability and have said they may give us some of the tools from the Medicine tree. How this will be applied is still a mystery. My guess is they will either give us Chem-Resistant Inlays , Sedatives, Evasive Imperative, or maybe Med Shield?

 

- They have commented on the uselessness of Overload Shot. I am hoping they increase the damage significantly, and reduce its energy in order to make it a viable solution.

 

 

Points I did NOT like:

 

 

- No AOE damage mitigation at this time

 

- PvP set bonus working as intended? They are aware 5 energy is a joke, they MAY adjust it.

 

- "Shoot First/Hidden Strike does great damage because it requires you to be stealthed behind your target. If it did not require stealth, it would do considerably less damage." -Dev

 

^

 

SCOLD, please refute this nonsense by mentioning how Maul has the same positioning requirements w/o stealth! yet does MORE burst damage than Hidden Strike. Please ask him why Smash hits harder, why any other ability in game hits harder than a stealth required/positional attack. By his logic we should be the hardest hitting class.

 

My final say: So far I am happy with some of the replies. However I WOULD LOVE TO SEE BACKSTAB'S COOLDOWN REDUCED TO 8s IF HAVING HIDDEN STRIKE OUT OF STEALTH IS TOO DAMN OP ACCORDING TO THE DEV.

 

We should definitely adjust our questions now to correspond with the answers received.

Edited September 10, 2013 by JohnElias

[Syberduh]

Yeah does the operative set of questions need to reiterate the set bonus and dps survivability questions from scoundrels? Like, "no really bioware these issues are gimping the class." Maybe with some caps and colors for EMPHASIS? FFS Bioware.

 

DPS ops are just comically bad in arenas. The two most prevalent dps specs are smash mara and AP powertech. Trying to play a melee dps without an AOE damage reduction buff in that environment is RIDICULOUS

 

I can't slip and shade my way through an enormous elemental AOE damage cone that includes a 90% slow. I love that AP is finally getting some love but the state of dps ops is just pathetic.

 

Several matches in a row against wakalord on his op here starting around 1:43:

 

http://www.twitch.tv/melynmeron/b/457613272

 

(vs. the same group except Waka on his 'sin at 39 mins and at 1:11 for comparison)

 

They're just screwing around with comp but you get the idea.

 

In the first match we pretty much ignore wakasopperative and he does good damage. In the other matches we just train him mercilessly and there isn't much he can do. We aren't even running AP PTs that melt ops even harder than smash.

[Ovanmaru]

Thank you for staying on top of this Scold (and everyone else actively involved with these issues)! I'm somewhat glad that the scoundrels got their questions answered before us. Hopefully the devs give us some better answers...otherwise I really don't see the point in this representative stuff. The fact that we only get 3 questions is in itself a bit sketchy. Now it turns out that some classes get amazing responses where as others just get shrugged off? This really says something about the devs.

[Morde_]

I haven't forgotten you guys, I've just been busy with university starting up again.

 

I've been reading and I'll post a big update with my thoughts about the scoundrel questions soon.

 

I was a fan of the 3 questions that the scoundrel guy chose (they were all front running ideas in my mind as well). The answers weren't amazing but there were some decent things Bioware touched on.

 

At least we don't have a perception problem.

[JohnElias]

I'm just curious how we can all go about building our 3 new questions.

 

Should we refute some of Bioware's logic, should we keep pressing the issue of survivability once more this time with CAPLOCK ENABLED, or should we accept the Dev answers as fact and move on with other issues to pursue?

 

I am confused. And Scold, it's alright if you are busy, we understand.

 

The good thing about this community is that we are very close, and all have constructive feedback to give!

[oaceen]

I'm just curious how we can all go about building our 3 new questions.

 

Should we refute some of Bioware's logic, should we keep pressing the issue of survivability once more this time with CAPLOCK ENABLED, or should we accept the Dev answers as fact and move on with other issues to pursue?

 

I am confused. And Scold, it's alright if you are busy, we understand.

 

The good thing about this community is that we are very close, and all have constructive feedback to give!

 

i would honestly suggest any exceptions you have over the responses, just post in the scoundrel thread and get it out there.

 

i don't believe asking the same question again would be the way to go. in fact, i sent a PM to EricMusco to specifically ask if they could take another look at the set bonus question, since i don't think they really answered it, and i really didn't want an operative question to be burned on asking that one again.

(and btw, they did respond to say that they weren't really happy with a lot of set bonuses, which is another sort of non-answer, but a lot better than 'WAI')

 

anyway, there's been a lot of discussion in the scoundrel thread and EricMusco has replied a few times and reassured us that he's submitting feedback from the scoundrel forum and the scoundrel questions thread specifically back to the combat team, so just post your constructive feedback and feel confident that it's being consolidation and submitted to the combat team for us.

[Svii]

Should we refute some of Bioware's logic, should we keep pressing the issue of survivability once more this time with CAPLOCK ENABLED, or should we accept the Dev answers as fact and move on with other issues to pursue?

 

Not directed at you in particular:

 

Eric Musco has stated _very_ clearly that they read and relay suggestions/concerns (even angry QQs) in the "Top questions" threads (+much more) and at the same time it is unrealistic that they can answer every post/concern/suggestion etc. The best thing the community can do is to keep a cool head, no caps lock or stupid colours, because it just makes you look angry/stupid and degrades your entire post/point. They ARE listening.

 

You will be taken much more seriously if you post in a calm level headed manner with good reasoning and understandable language. But, do not expect them to jump at any of the issues and fix it the way YOU feel is correct the very next patch, it is unrealistic (and childish). We all have a chance to influence the combat team here, embrace it.

Edited September 12, 2013 by Svii

[Cordorian]

since we are slippery and shady and masters of manipulation and deception, we should keep the thinking they are safe then hidden strike them and pray for crits

btw there have been some really interesting suggestions along the slippery and shady them from the scoundrels, like changing concealment a bit towards a buff/debuff class in order to side step dps hierachy and giving us bigger non stealth utility. i think there is some potential in there, we are the ac class that isnt backed up by the force or super armor but is our wit that gives us the advsntage... maybe that is a road that could work

[Meiloc]

After reading through the Sniper and Scoundrel Q&A I've come up with a question that maybe can be used to work with by adding stuff to it if need be. The question is part of a blog I posted concerning the Sniper/Scoundrel Q&A. If anyone is interested, you can read it over at ConcealedBlade.com.

 

In comparison to all other DPS classes, Operatives are at the bottom of the DPS charts. Especially the Concealment Tree. And as you are aware, these Operatives rely on Orbital Strikes and Explosive Probe in their single-target rotation to optimize their DPS. Now, in the Sniper answers, you claimed your dislike of having OS and EP used in their rotation to increase their single-target DPS. You also came across their weaknesses, that being "quality of life issues like energy management, lack of a well-flowing rotation – thanks to the extremely long cooldowns on Explosive Probe and Orbital Strike, along with the unfriendly requirement of using Adrenaline Probe to maximize sustained damage," which just so happen to be the EXACT same issues we have.

And During the Scoundrel session, you essentially disapproved of OS being such an appealing ability to us. On top of all that, the hardest hitting melee ability (Hidden Strike), according to your metrics, is only used once per encounter, and only hits for a significant amount IF it crits.

So, noting our energy management issues, essentially taking away OS from us, potentially changing EP to make it unappealing in our rotation, and leaving HS as is, what ideas do the team have, other than attempting to make Overload Shot a practical filler, which will clearly not compensate for our massive DPS loss, to make Operative DPS viable in a PVE and PVP setting?

Edited September 16, 2013 by Meiloc

[Morde_]

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=681282

 

Well I guess we'll have to wait a bit longer then.

[FoE_Khorne]

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=681282

 

Well I guess we'll have to wait a bit longer then.

 

In the meantime, I encourage people to discuss possible concealment changes on this thread:

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=680427

I check this forum everyday now, so I will try to be quick about my responses. I have finally stepped off the side lines to attempt to make a difference, as I feel it is do or die time for the game and class I enjoy.

 

Hello fellow operatives and scoundrels! This is Valinov concealment ops of Pot5. Ive been reading all the suggestions and the discussions around scoundrels/operatives. There are a lot of ideas are being thrown around on the scoundrel questions. Some of them seem fair on the surface, others are just plain bad, but there is a consensus that dps ops need something to be viable in competitive pvp.

Bioware believes that the class should be slippery and shady.; that we dont need flat dr like other classes have. When I first read their response it made me somewhat angry. But now after much thought, I tend to agree with them. I dont want my class to have what my sin does. Theres a reason why I play concealment instead: the play style is more fun and rewarding to me. I dont want to be a copy of assassin but with different skill names. While its obvious that flat dr's are better than avoidance chances, I believe if implemented correctly that they can make the class viable. The dps factor of the class is fine. Any major changes will take them over the top in pve and pvp. If all this in mind these are my purposed changes to make us more 'slippery'

(I will be using operative talents names/ skill names)

 

Evasion-- I believe evasion should be a concealment ops bread and butter. But as it stands right now, it leaves something to be desired. The talent 'evasive imperative' should be moved to the concealment tree. In addition to its current effect it should grant the operative immunity to movement impairing effects for the duration, similar to hydraulic overdrive on bounty hunters.

 

Elite shadow operative-- Its a good talent, but I think it should be tweaked a bit. Bump the chance to 60%, lower the internal cd by 3 to 12seconds, and lower the engergy cost by 5 instead of 4.

 

Ghost-- Since they are eluded to changing the debuff from cloaking screen to reduce healing all done by 100% instead of healing received ( great change imo a big nerf to ops heals; no more hots ticking on their team when combat stealthing.) So instead of having useless text, I believe it should have an effect similar to 'evasive imperative' taking damage reduces the cooldown of cloaking screen by 1.5seconds, this effect cannot occur more than once every 1.5 seconds. Also make it reduce all damage by 100% for 2 second. This change wont effect pve dps as they arent getting attacked, but will give concealment a much needed more frequent combat drop.

 

Culling-- There was mention of making this a over time effect. The only way I see an over time effect being better is if it is changed to 12 energy over 3 seconds. If it that cant be done or is too much, just leave it alone. Dont fix what isnt broke.

 

Meticulously kept blades-- This has been brought up for a LONG time. It is totally pointless to have sever tendon on this skill. Do one of 2 things: Add shiv instead of ST or remove ST and buff it to 40%

 

Concealed attacks-- Buff this to 20% for backstab and hidden strike. And maybe make it so that crits with backstabt and hidden restore 4 energy (value can be tweaked)... Since the crit nerf in 2.0 it just hasnt felt the same.

 

Revitalizers-- A terrible terrible talent. If you take it, then you are doing it wrong... Period. Im not sure what should be done here... honestly it should just be scrapped, and something actually useful added.

 

Overload shot-- As others have said even if the damage was doubled and the energy reduced, it still would not be worth using. Just make it free and keep the damage the same... Lol even then i would still use rifle shot to interrupt caps.

 

Set bonus for PVP dps.. keep the 2 piece as it currently is (maybe buff evasion by 2 seconds instead of 1). The 4 piece should be 15% crit to shiv so that is useful for both specs.. simple fix really.

 

Sneak-- I wouldnt be opposed to giving a 20-50% (actual value up to debate) chance to resist/evade all attacks for its duration. I mean if bioware is deadset against giving us 30% aoe DR or 30% dr while stunned, then we need something more. Rolling away only is so useful...

 

As a quick point on OPS/scoundrel heals.. The problem is that their energy management is too good. A change to Durable Meds would be a good step. Instead of reducing the cost by 2 per point, it should only be 1 per point. This change + the change to cloaking screen is a good start for toning them down.

 

 

Those are my ideas for changes within the current layout we have. I've seen some ideas for short combat stealths, which I think would be nice, but that certainly wont be before an expac. Honestly any major changes, aka uber def cds, would make me feel way OP. Please post your thoughts and support for these ideas. Thanks for reading. I will try to reply to as many posts as I can, but I'm not a forum warrior. hah

Edited September 19, 2013 by FoE_Khorne

[RomichGausser]

From what I've noticed after playing my concealment operative nonstop in pvp, we aren't fighting at our full potential. Allow me to explain. Take a marauder for example: incredible damage potential, extremely durable in combat due to his great defensive cooldowns, thus showing that they are truly designed to mutilate people. Another example would be an assassin: heavy burst, reasonable survivability, ability to guard and taunt when necessary, showing that they're fully capable of dealing damage and mitigating it against others at the same time. And what do we have as an operative?

Currently, operative medics are considered overpowered (even by me somewhat) showing that they can survive and heal its team quite well and even become near-immortal with a guard on. However, operative's damage trees aren't doing that great. We may have one of the heaviest bursts in the game and a reasonable sustained damage output in both lethality and concealment, but we're technically considered to be a "glass cannon" due to the fact that we have zero good defensive cooldowns except for Evasion (I'm not counting Shield Probe because its an utter garbage). But that's not the only reason why we struggle. We are operatives. We're not supposed to have great defensives against others like a juggernaut or a marauder. In damage specs we're missing our main component that makes us whole: healing.

Be honest, how many times do you heal yourself against a potent assassin or a powertech? The answer is: almost never. And even when force them to use their CC breaker, followed by vanish-sleep dart combo, we would rather heal ourselves with our class regen ability rather than using our own medicine. The point of all this is to show that we, dps operatives, shouldnt rely on defensives to keep us alive but on our healing abilities that are slowly collecting dust. Quickening talent in lethality spec was a great move towards our survivability but unfortunately its still completely unreliable....

[ripamorame]

I'd hate to bring up a old mmo ability but what about a ability where you can use all your stealth abilities out of stealth for 4 seconds or something. I.e hidden strike. or Ta's increasing crit chance by like 7.5% per stack.

[FoE_Khorne]

From what I've noticed after playing my concealment operative nonstop in pvp, we aren't fighting at our full potential. Allow me to explain. Take a marauder for example: incredible damage potential, extremely durable in combat due to his great defensive cooldowns, thus showing that they are truly designed to mutilate people. Another example would be an assassin: heavy burst, reasonable survivability, ability to guard and taunt when necessary, showing that they're fully capable of dealing damage and mitigating it against others at the same time. And what do we have as an operative?

Currently, operative medics are considered overpowered (even by me somewhat) showing that they can survive and heal its team quite well and even become near-immortal with a guard on. However, operative's damage trees aren't doing that great. We may have one of the heaviest bursts in the game and a reasonable sustained damage output in both lethality and concealment, but we're technically considered to be a "glass cannon" due to the fact that we have zero good defensive cooldowns except for Evasion (I'm not counting Shield Probe because its an utter garbage). But that's not the only reason why we struggle. We are operatives. We're not supposed to have great defensives against others like a juggernaut or a marauder. In damage specs we're missing our main component that makes us whole: healing.

Be honest, how many times do you heal yourself against a potent assassin or a powertech? The answer is: almost never. And even when force them to use their CC breaker, followed by vanish-sleep dart combo, we would rather heal ourselves with our class regen ability rather than using our own medicine. The point of all this is to show that we, dps operatives, shouldnt rely on defensives to keep us alive but on our healing abilities that are slowly collecting dust. Quickening talent in lethality spec was a great move towards our survivability but unfortunately its still completely unreliable....

 

Honesly.. I heal myself fairly often. I use this build http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#401MfZGbzrdrkrhGRZh.3

Server tendon + roll + los + stim boost then whichever heal i have time for. If i can manage it i do injection then infusion. I generally pull 60-90k heals on myself(when solo queueing) per match while doing solid dps. While it certainly isnt optimal, it works in regs. The problem is in a rated- competitive environment we are screwed. The chances we will be able to cast our heals are VERY low. Perhaps making infusion have a way of instant casting high in concealment similar to lethality. (which I believe should have a higher proc rate) Revitalizers needs a rework as well.. combine those changes with the ones I proposed in my thread, and i believe we would be in a decent spot for ranked areas. We wouldnt be good as powertechs, sorcs, snipers, or maras (lol)... but good players could make it work.

[RomichGausser]

Honesly.. I heal myself fairly often. I use this build http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#401MfZGbzrdrkrhGRZh.3

Server tendon + roll + los + stim boost then whichever heal i have time for. If i can manage it i do injection then infusion. I generally pull 60-90k heals on myself(when solo queueing) per match while doing solid dps. While it certainly isnt optimal, it works in regs. The problem is in a rated- competitive environment we are screwed. The chances we will be able to cast our heals are VERY low. Perhaps making infusion have a way of instant casting high in concealment similar to lethality. (which I believe should have a higher proc rate) Revitalizers needs a rework as well.. combine those changes with the ones I proposed in my thread, and i believe we would be in a decent spot for ranked areas. We wouldnt be good as powertechs, sorcs, snipers, or maras (lol)... but good players could make it work.

 

I guess I should have made myself more clear about healing. I heal myself as well from time to time in wzs, but what I've meant was that we almost never heal ourselves in combat. We might blind the opponent and possibly squeeze in a few injections if we're fast enough, but even then the target must have zero dots on it as well as not having a cc breaker. My idea of healing was: Whenever you gain Tactical Advantage, you gain a Kolto Override charge that reduces casting time of your next Kolto Injection and Kolto Infusion by 1 second and reduces its cost by 100%, stacks up to 2 times. Just an idea of what we can do with our healing abilities. If that wont do it, we might make Revitalizers a specific ability for concealment that procs from TA just like Recuperate is for rogues in WoW with combo points.

[Meiloc]

I'm curious, do we have a Rough Draft for the 3 questions yet?

[Morde_]

I'm curious, do we have a Rough Draft for the 3 questions yet?

 

Going to wait til after 2.5 (when they reboot the program) in the vain hope that there are more changes to Operatives to discuss.

[Meiloc]

Fair enough.

[Ahebish]

Morde-

 

I appreciate your effort to consolidate the concerns of the IA community. But, it falls on deaf ears, and will continue to do so.

 

It's just how things are for concelments/scrappers.

 

Some day people will learn to except it, and stop having any sort of expectations from biowizard in regards to concealment or scrapper specs.