NERF : Guardian Tanks

[Dragonexadon]

Actually, dragging another class down because ours is underperforming is a perfectly acceptable form of balance. Hell they've been doing it to shadows over the entire life of the game. Nerf after nerf to "bring them in line with the other tanks".

 

Which is better should be taken on a case by case basis, but balance is the key. In the end being over or under powered is all a matter of perspective. From the view of the best class, the other is underpowered. From the view of the worst class, the best is overpowered. As long as the mechanics and gameplay are sound it doesn't matter where that dividing line lies, as long as there is parity amongst the classes.

 

Fair points. I just rather see civil debates (lol the internet) on why one believes a class is OP / UP over attacking each other for playing the class they enjoy.

[ArchangelLBC]

Fair points. I just rather see civil debates (lol the internet) on why one believes a class is OP / UP over attacking each other for playing the class they enjoy.

 

Honestly despite my unjustified and petulant sniping at Tridus, I tend to agree with you. Like I said though, squeaky wheel gets the grease =/

 

Hell we only have dev acknowledgement of this being a concern because Leafy spammed a bunch of forums over the issue. Being good forum citizens doesn't seem to actually get anything done it seems. It's very unfortunate because it only encourages the kind of bad behavior the internet is known for already.

Edited August 13, 2013 by ArchangelLBC

[Berjiz]

The biggest argument about Guardians/Juggernauts being over-powered seems to be Saber Reflect and how unbalanced it is. How many abilities do Shad/Sins and PT/VGs have that are usable at range? What about Juggs? They have Saber Throw and Vicious Throw (and one of those can only be used under 30%) neither of which generate much threat at all. How then is a Juggernaut supposed to hold threat on ranged mobs? Or is that supposed to be the "niche" of two of the other classes. Actually, its better put that Jugg/Guard's niche is NOT tanking ranged. Its said that a Jugg/Guard can simply "LAWLSaberReflect" and win. I challenge any of you to do exactly that: Jump/Leap in and hit Saber Reflect and nothing else. How long will you hold aggro on mobs that are being attacked? I know for a fact that its not as long as you'd think.

Their are several problems with saber reflect, it is partially op but its more than that. It's a pretty weird skill that does a lot of everything. First I think BW needs to be clear about what mechanics should be cheesable and which shouldn't. It's strange that they change mechanics to make it more challeging/uncheasable while at the same time leaving saber reflect to work on said mechanics.

 

Second that it used for aoe threat seems a bit weird and leaves the guardian in a bad place for aoe threat if it is down. Either chaning an existing abilty or adding a new one for aoe threat would be good.

 

The other truly sad thing is that time and time again legitimate arguments based on observed empirical evidence are ignored or claimed to be false because the "math" says something different. Based on that logic I should run into McDonald's if I buy a large French-Fry and don't win something in the Monopoly game since a Large French-Fry comes with 4 chances to win and they claim right there on the Fry box that 1 in 4 wins. Judged solely on that simple bit of mathematics, I should win but the truth of what should (or more accurately, might) happen when it comes to probabilities and the truth of what does happen are often far from similar. Add into the basics of probability the fact that in this case you are dealing with tens of hundreds of variables on both sides of the fight (the player and the non-player character) and the margin for error becomes massive. Kitru claims he'd happily admit to being wrong if someone simply gave a mathematical proof of it when that isn't what is necessary at all. In fact, the burden of proof lies entirely with the person claiming there is an issue.

Not sure what you mean here, math can do a **** ton of stuff if done correctly and I don't see why you look down on it so much. There are also is a huge diffrence between 4*25% is 100%, and making assumptions and simplifications. One is just bad math and the other one is usually necessary to be able to do anything at all. Ofc you have to write and be clear about your assumptions.

 

Also I haven't seen any good arugments against it, except for some pretty good ones from Thok-zeus. Most of the ones I seen have been full with annecdotes and low on hard evidence. But this is offtopic.

 

You want the devs to believe this is a real issue? Give them actual numbers. Give them parses that show this happening and then provide the math to back it up. As far as I have ever seen, this hasn't been done. I've heard claims about it happening to this person or that and then claims about the models but what all that ignores is that the devs (the people who actually wrote the code behind all that math) did tests (without commenting on how thorough said tests were) and used their own models to predict how damage would play out. Why should they believe that their tools which based solely on the fact that the people who created the formulae to calculate all of the damage and mitigation's tools are inferior to self-professed amateurs?

.

There have been numbers on several occasions, there isn't any collection of them tough(making a collection would actually be a good idea) and but they are out their in the threads. Among them I rember a 40k dmg in 1.2 sec on twh nim and some similar numbers from the jumping frog in tfb. Or the fact that termiante 16 man nim is one shot. It's also easy to calculate how much more an assasin takes from a spike, if it kills the assasin or not is another question though.

 

 

 

 

The part that worries me most however is how BW seems to not be reading the class forums at all and "rewarding" people for throwing tantrums. Another example is how there is a 10+ page thread about dark wards pretty ugly effect in the class forum and BW commented on the first page of a similar thread that was in general. They encourage bad behavour far to much and at times seem to have no clue what they are actually doing. They also seem to overdo nerfs and buffs.

[ScarletBlaze]

I have a shadow but I do not support the idea of the only way to get attention is to start saying nerf this class or that class.

 

That accomplishes nothing but problems. Why nerf another class just because one class needs to be adjusted. I disagree with that. I do not see the reason that guardians need to be nerf (and no I don't have one) . Lashing out or trying to get another class nerf because one class may need adjusted is childish. It like saying if I don't get my way I will make sure I cause problems for someone else just because.

 

My two cents.

Edited August 14, 2013 by ScarletBlaze

[Leafy_Bug]

The last few pages show that not only the devs avoid the class sections but also the community. Some of the wall of text arguments are nothing else than what we, the shadow tank community, have said two months ago. We have asked for a shadow and vanguard change to bring it in line with the Guardian. We have been completely ignored and we even did all the math on how to make changes while keeping some shadow tanking spikiness.

 

 

People come in this thread, insult other people, say that guardians waited 1 year for a fix inferring that shadows need to wait the same amount of time and tell us to move a long. What is even more ridiculous is the stance against 'tantrum topics'. All of a sudden amnesia kicked in for some of you and forgot how Shadow nerfs were done based on 'tantrum threads' in the pvp section. So we shadows get all these changes because of the dozen of brainless pvp threads and when we act the same, due to being completely ignored by the developers when using a mature channel of communication, people come in here and say it is uncalled for. [insert word here] at its finest.

 

 

Never in the history of this game a guardian tank has been one shot by a boss yet people claim guardians had it very bad pre 2.0. I ran with a shadow-guardian combo and granted, 2-3 dps got one shot in Denova on the tanks because of poor aggro but the problem was solved by me starting on the right tank. We started doing this, aggro was fine. So having said that, funny to see how starting with a shadow and then swapping with a guardian is considered as bad as dying from bad RNG. You guys claim we, shadows, blow things out of proportion. You make me laugh, again, when you bring in the threat argument. Shadows had to kite like retarded ducks at Kephess because the trandosians cut through them so badly it wasn't even funny. It's good, we all have FROG, Friendly Fire, Suckafish healers so shadows are fine.

 

 

We have said many times, BioWare only speaks nerf language so our mistake for not starting with this two months ago. Guardian tanks are not only OP but also grossly supported by the developers. Every new mechanic that apparently is supposed to bring challenges to the raid, gimps the shadow and vanguard while at the same time giving the guardian another exit strategy.

 

 

 

Please do not stop posting things we the shadow tanks have posted two months ago, over dozens of pages and several threads. Do tell us how Shadows are fine because they clear content and how bad we are for not knowing how to play one. 42k one shot terminate, instant kill at sunder when resilience fails, 3 shot at kephess nim, 60% hp taken away by TWH in a few seconds, these things are normal. BUFF GUARDIANS!!!

Edited August 14, 2013 by Leafy_Bug

[Ephesia]

Honestly despite my unjustified and petulant sniping at Tridus, I tend to agree with you. Like I said though, squeaky wheel gets the grease =/

 

Hell we only have dev acknowledgement of this being a concern because Leafy spammed a bunch of forums over the issue. Being good forum citizens doesn't seem to actually get anything done it seems. It's very unfortunate because it only encourages the kind of bad behavior the internet is known for already.

 

No this promotes nothing, not in the eyes of the developers and certainly not in the eyes of the classes that you want to bring down to your problems.

 

It takes time in many games for balance issues to be resolved and a developer not posting here is does not in any way whatsoever mean that they are not looking into this. It wasn't really like guardian issues were the first priority on their list before it got fixed in the expansion.

[MillionsKNives]

No this promotes nothing, not in the eyes of the developers and certainly not in the eyes of the classes that you want to bring down to your problems.

 

It takes time in many games for balance issues to be resolved and a developer not posting here is does not in any way whatsoever mean that they are not looking into this. It wasn't really like guardian issues were the first priority on their list before it got fixed in the expansion.

 

Yes, and their complete lack of knowledge of even the EXISTENCE of the problem up until Leafy spammed the hell out of the forums shows that they have been diligently keeping an eye on issues like this.

[Ephesia]

Yes, and their complete lack of knowledge of even the EXISTENCE of the problem up until Leafy spammed the hell out of the forums shows that they have been diligently keeping an eye on issues like this.

 

You have no idea about what you are talking about. You are just making assumptions with no real information behind your words.

 

Re-read: Just because they aren't answering to your every spam threads doesn't mean they are not aware of the issue.

 

Now re-read again, just to be safe. Screaming and causing a ruckus in forums does nothing to promote your standpoint.

[Maudril]

We have asked for a shadow and vanguard change to bring it in line with the Guardian. We have been completely ignored and we even did all the math on how to make changes while keeping some shadow tanking spikiness.

 

People come in this thread, insult other people, say that guardians waited 1 year for a fix inferring that shadows need to wait the same amount of time and tell us to move a long. What is even more ridiculous is the stance against 'tantrum topics'.

 

Never in the history of this game a guardian tank has been one shot by a boss yet people claim guardians had it very bad pre 2.0. I ran with a shadow-guardian combo and granted, 2-3 dps got one shot in Denova on the tanks because of poor aggro but the problem was solved by me starting on the right tank. We started doing this, aggro was fine. So having said that, funny to see how starting with a shadow and then swapping with a guardian is considered as bad as dying from bad RNG. You guys claim we, shadows, blow things out of proportion. You make me laugh, again, when you bring in the threat argument. Shadows had to kite like retarded ducks at Kephess because the trandosians cut through them so badly it wasn't even funny. It's good, we all have FROG, Friendly Fire, Suckafish healers so shadows are fine.

 

We have said many times, BioWare only speaks nerf language so our mistake for not starting with this two months ago. Guardian tanks are not only OP but also grossly supported by the developers. Every new mechanic that apparently is supposed to bring challenges to the raid, gimps the shadow and vanguard while at the same time giving the guardian another exit strategy.

 

Please do not stop posting things we the shadow tanks have posted two months ago, over dozens of pages and several threads. Do tell us how Shadows are fine because they clear content and how bad we are for not knowing how to play one. 42k one shot terminate, instant kill at sunder when resilience fails, 3 shot at kephess nim, 60% hp taken away by TWH in a few seconds, these things are normal. BUFF GUARDIANS!!!

 

Snipped things I do not consider worth addressing

 

The problem is not with the Guardians being OP nearly as much as the Shadows being unable to handle a few situations properly. Shadows are fine, often preferable to Guardians in most situations I found. Problem is, a few situations will drop you like a fly as a Shadow(Dog packs, turrets on Mando Raiders, scattered bosses on NiM, etc). Those FEW situations are where a shadow is not only bad, but rather gimp.

 

This is a problem needs to be addressed, but that does not change that the better average mitigation and *much* superior threat generation makes the shadow preferable to the Guardian in *most* situations before such insane spike damage is introduced. As a matter of fact, if a solution such as Kitru's 4% DR for 15secs attached to Force Breach were implemented, I wouldn't be surprised if Shadows wound up very noticeably better than Guardians in most situations, and comparable to them with NiM bosses and such.

 

No one ever said that guardians had *survivability* problems pre-2.0. I started playing around 2.0, so I cant say too much on the pre-2.0 subject, but I know even now it is rather difficult to hold aggro as a Guardian(Saber Reflect holds aggro for about 30% of the time that an AOE taunt does in practice, FTR). Much more difficult than a Shadow, seeing the buffs Guardians got to aggro generation I shudder to think how difficult it was to keep aggro *IN ALMOST ALL SITUATIONS* pre 2.0, I am not talking about NiM Bosses.

I'd say that aggro generation was pretty damn gimp all the time. Guardian threat generation did not make it brutal to keep aggro on a few situations on a few HM FPs or NiM bosses, but *every situation on single flashpoint before that* and did not get a fix for that for a year.

 

THAT is why Guardians are saying (somewhat rarely as of late, you people agree more than you let on) that we have had it pretty damn bad pre 2.0. Pre 2.0 we had quite a bit of trouble on 94% of the content holding aggro, whereas Shadows have gimp survivability on the 4% of the content that Guardians never had any trouble with. THAT is why some in the guardian comminity are saying you don't have it as bad.

Understand the side of those you "oppose" before you decide that they are the enemy, often they have good points, and you may agree more than you realize if you take a quick look from their POV.

 

So you really are barking up the wrong tree about *why* you want guardians nerfed. If you want a class nerfed because another class is only superior to it 96% of the time and objectively inferior to it the other 4% of the time, I am not surprised that the Devs will see "Leafy_Bug" as the poster and skim it politely and think "'Waah waah waah I made a point 2 months ago, why am I acknowledged devs? Since I am not, nerf your precious guardians into the ground! That'll show ya!' is all this guy has been saying for the past few weeks. I think I'll take this guy about as seriously as my 3 year old back at home."

 

The inherent *nature* of your "Points" on this thread regarding *guardians* I think lend to discrediting the actual problem, especially since you are drawing attention *away* from said problem. The problem is not with the guardian's survivabilty or their (objectively inferior, even now) threat generation, the problem is with the shadows being a disproportionate(gimping) disadvantage in a few situations. Get back on that topic, if you're gonna whine to get attention, be rational about it. I am sure the devs deal with children enough at their homes.

Edited August 14, 2013 by Maudril

[MillionsKNives]

You have no idea about what you are talking about. You are just making assumptions with no real information behind your words.

 

Re-read: Just because they aren't answering to your every spam threads doesn't mean they are not aware of the issue.

 

Now re-read again, just to be safe. Screaming and causing a ruckus in forums does nothing to promote your standpoint.

 

How about them flat-out telling Kitru that they have no idea about the issue at one of the Q&A events. How is that for assumptions...

[Ephesia]

How about them flat-out telling Kitru that they have no idea about the issue at one of the Q&A events. How is that for assumptions...

 

Not every person who is dealing with customers has to know about class balance issues. It is not surprising for them to not know at first, but this is no proof that they are not looking at it as we speak.

[MillionsKNives]

Not every person who is dealing with customers has to know about class balance issues. It is not surprising for them to not know at first, but this is no proof that they are not looking at it as we speak.

 

So we've gone from "You have no idea what you are talking about" to "it's not the community managers' jobs to do their jobs and be abreast of community issues".

 

For an issue that has been discussed as long and as detailed as this has, with as much proof and suggestions as has been provided, they're taking their sweet time in getting back to us with anything more than a "we're looking into it". Hardly instills good faith.

[Snarkasms]

They said (what, about 50, 60 days ago now?) that they were looking into it. This is after it was brought up to them in person at a Cantina event, after months of reasoned discussion on the tanking and shadow forums, after Leafy went nuclear on the forum to try to finally get some kind of attention, response, anything to indicate people weren't wasting their breath.

 

They have said they're looking into it. One yellow post amidst 4 months of reports, logs, math, theory, anecdotes, sniping, name-calling, etc. does not a happy player base make.

[Dragonexadon]

They said (what, about 50, 60 days ago now?) that they were looking into it. This is after it was brought up to them in person at a Cantina event, after months of reasoned discussion on the

 

I think we can all agree that they should have given you guys more detail by now. More so as everyone here are paying costumers. And I agree with class balance and that means bringing Shadows on par with guardians or perhaps bringing guardians down a notch. I think most Guardians are just asking not to be brought up time and time again for the soul reason of getting attention from the devs.

Edited August 14, 2013 by Dragonexadon

[Thundernuts]

God, these whiny Shadows. Guardians are far from OP. In PVP, we have our advantages and our disadvantages. Vanguards have theirs as well as Shadows. I've played since beta and let me tell you, as far as PVP is concerned, we are finally balanced. We have great survivability and utility and sh*t dps. Our mobility is meh, we can get rooted and slowed repeatedly which pretty much neutralizes the class. That is called balance. L2P!!!!!!!

[Maudril]

I think we can all agree that they should have given you guys more detail by now. More so as everyone here are paying costumers. And I agree with class balance and that means bringing Shadows on par with guardians or perhaps bringing guardians down a notch. I think most Guardians are just asking not to be brought up time and time again for the soul reason of getting attention from the devs.

 

Part that, and ftr I do not consider myself a part of either the Shadow or the Guardian community. If I am a part of any, then I am a part of both since I like my Guardian and Shadow rather equally, and would like them to perform on roughly the same level. (Okay, I have a Juggernaut and an Assassin, but same thing, right?) The Shadows and Guardians are relatively fine, except the shadow has one *glaring* issue. Guardian is where they need to be, I won't want to have a situation where the Guardian drastically underperforms either. I think if such a situation occurs with a class, that I want that fixed instead of wishing such failure on another class.

 

So yes, fix shadows, leave guardians alone. However, buff the guardians anymore and we are going to have a problem.

[MillionsKNives]

God, these whiny Shadows. Guardians are far from OP. In PVP, we have our advantages and our disadvantages. Vanguards have theirs as well as Shadows. I've played since beta and let me tell you, as far as PVP is concerned, we are finally balanced. We have great survivability and utility and sh*t dps. Our mobility is meh, we can get rooted and slowed repeatedly which pretty much neutralizes the class. That is called balance. L2P!!!!!!!

 

Oh by all means just waltz on in here with no knowledge of anything being discussed and pull the "Everything is fine, L2P" card. You make a convincing argument.

[Jimvinny]

Personally, I love how the aoe threat of a shadow gets bandied about as a reason why shadows are fine. Yeah, being able to keep threat on 5 mobs at range really helps me when the Ops Chief decides to one-shot me for 43k through deflection.

[Maudril]

Personally, I love how the aoe threat of a shadow gets bandied about as a reason why shadows are fine. Yeah, being able to keep threat on 5 mobs at range really helps me when the Ops Chief decides to one-shot me for 43k through deflection.

 

We're not saying that they are fine all the time, we are saying that the Shadow has its advantages. When the spikiness is fixed, those advantages will be more pronounced as their main weakness is lessened.

 

We are saying that the spikiness needs to be fixed, and we are using that to help prove the point that once it is, the Shadow will be very much on the Guardian's level.

[wadecounty]

I'm not part of the "Guardians had to wait a year and a half to fix their tank spec so Shadows should too" crowd.

 

That being said... I distinctly recall a lack of outcry from the Shadow community over the state of Guardian tanks pre 2.0. That's understandable, seeing as they were the de facto best tanks in the game, I'd think they'd be OK with the status quo. However, I also saw very few, if any, Guardian tanks asking for nerfs to Shadow or Vanguard tanks. They simply wanted their threat to be brought up to a manageable level, and to have our tanking tree fixed.

 

The only people asking for nerfs on Shadows pre 2.0 was the PvP community. And you all really, really don't want to be like the PvP community.

[Gjest]

Personally, I love how the aoe threat of a shadow gets bandied about as a reason why shadows are fine. Yeah, being able to keep threat on 5 mobs at range really helps me when the Ops Chief decides to one-shot me for 43k through deflection.

 

It's one of their strengths and used properly it is a good bonus. There are plenty of shadow/assassin tanks out there who make it work to a group's advantage.

 

Ops are kinda meant to be tough, there's always gonna be situations that pop up and you die. Kinda the whole point. Also it is not their only ability, nor have I seen anywhere in this thread people saying it is the reason they are fine.

 

With a tank that wears light armor it makes sense that they are gonna be squishier. There's always gonna be people getting upset and saying "No fair!" when stuff gets tough, but please try and understand that a shadow is not a vanguard, is not a guardian. (Again not trying to offend.) There have to be differences, not just cosmetic but actual gameplay.

 

That being said there are I believe certain minor balance issues involved, and the tank classes could use a little tweaking. That does not mean I think anything needs nerfed or vice versa. Just some tweaking.

 

P.S. Wade, You sir put it very well indeed!

Edited August 14, 2013 by Gjest

[Kitru]

That being said... I distinctly recall a lack of outcry from the Shadow community over the state of Guardian tanks pre 2.0.

 

I'm not sure what you're remembering, but I *distinctly* recall every Shadow that *discussed* the issue with Guardian threat specifically saying that it was terribad and that it needed to be buffed. I was even one of the Shadows discussing exactly *how* it should be buffed. KBN and I, both, actively remarked and commented upon the sad state of Guardian threat on numerous occasions, specifically referencing them during any comparison of the tank ACs. Saying that there was a lack of outcry from the Shadow community, at least those that actually take part in the tanking community as a whole, is more than a bit disingenuous.

 

It's already been pointed out that didn't have even remotely close to the same impact numerous times. Threat, by design, is intended to be a virtually negligible issue. The devs have explicitly stated it, and Guardians could get around it with taunt fluffing. You're not liable to get a massive outcry from a community outside of the AC when it's a problem that is present but doesn't outright prevent you from being able to do your job.

 

Of course, I do recall a lot of Guardians complaining about the Shadows pre-2.0, asking for nerfs time and time again, back when the only problem with Guardians was a comparatively minor one like threat. And, through much of that, up until 1.4 when the nerfs were finally finished, Shadows were also the ones pointing out that there was a legitimate foundation for Shadow mean mitigation to get nerfed a bit (not that it stopped a lot of Guardians from continuing to demand nerfs to Shadows).

 

Now, we've got Guardians and Shadows running the gamut: some Guardians believe that both ACs are perfectly fine, some accede that both are in need of changes, and some believe that only Shadows need to get changed. Of course, I find it very amusing that none of the Guardians have really turned an analytical eye upon their own performance. Those of us who have said that Guardians are in need of nerfs have put out math and numbers (and even asked for those who disagree to find the flaws in it). I haven't seen any of that from the opposite camp.

[Mr_Fuzzle]

As a Guardian Tank, I'll admit we are capable of surviving for far longer than both the other tank classes. I occasionally have to bring in my Guardian to HM runs when one of the regular tanks is out for the week and typically can do as well or better at surviving (particularly better than the Shadow) on every fight. Even with worse gear and relatively low HP (~33k with stim), I can tank the content just fine given my impressive cooldown suite where occasionally the geared Shadow will drop dead from the same instance. Granted I'm pretty competent on my Guardian even pre-2.0 and rarely do I have to even use a cooldown beyond Enure, but the fact that I have a fairly easy time compared to our now former Shadow tank is still there.

 

In terms of potential nerfs to Guardians, I'd say the best option would be to make the cooldowns less of a jack-of-all trades for all of them. Saber Reflect is a fantastic ability that is just too damn good right now compared to what other classes got. The horrible implementation of both Shoulder Cannon as a "cooldown" and Phase Walk as I don't even know what the hell it's supposed to do in PVE for tanks relative to the amazingness that is Saber Reflect is just really really awful. Returning the longer cooldowns on the Guardian abilities (I hate to say that) would help to alleviate the issue.

 

In terms of Shadow fixes, I have also healed on occasion for either one of my guild's HM groups and man, do I hate healing Shadows compared to either of the other tanks. The potential for spike damage is way too damn high. I jokingly called them the "squish tanks" before 2.0, but now I actually mean it. They're ability to take a hit is just no longer there. Sure, a skilled Shadow can clear content and we have, but it is harder on the healers when there's a Shadow in the group. To fix this, I'll agree with Kitru (smart choice usually) and say that they need a return of some of their damage reduction from armor rating. Yes, they are supposed to have less armor than the other tanks, however right now, they just take too damn much damage when the RNG gods did not accept the pre-raid sacrifice. This can come at the cost of some of their self-heals, but Shadows NEED some extra mitigation to counteract the spike damage they are so susceptible to.

 

So there you have it. A Guardian saying we do need a slight nerf to bring us back in line with other tanks. As much as I enjoy them, swapping in to fill a role is just too damn easy at this time. Shadows definitely need some help with flat mitigation to help deal with spike damage that may cause them to simply fall over dead where a Guardian or Vanguard would shrug it off like nothing happened. My only comment is, be reasonable with the changes you ask for with all the tank classes (this includes introducing a new cooldown to Vanguards) so that we end up with 3 equally viable tanks.

[Thundernuts]

Oh by all means just waltz on in here with no knowledge of anything being discussed and pull the "Everything is fine, L2P" card. You make a convincing argument.

 

There's nothing to argue. Im only addressing PVP. There is balance there and the classes are fine for the most part. I don't care about the PVE side of things as I hardly play it. So there may be imbalance there, I don't know. No one has given a real viable reason to nerf guardians. Nothing about them is OP, NOTHING. I've played one since head start and have always played it as a tank. We don't have true self heals, 3% and 8%(if using the vindicator set bonus) aren't self heals. We don't have stealth and we can't cleanse movement impairing effects unless we use our CC breaker. I loved the class then and I love the class now. There is no reason to nerf us. If you need a boost, then ask for that. But don't come here with this "Liberal my-situation-sucks-so-yours-should-too" attitude.

[Dragonexadon]

Iback when the only problem with Guardians was a comparatively minor one like threat.

 

Now this is where I really must disagree with Kitru. (And maybe i should lay out cookies, muffins and milk first )

 

 

 

The issue was with Guardian tanks having the lowest dps among the tanks and hence the lowest base threat generation. The problem with threat generation is serious especially in mechanics requiring a tank swap (at least the initial one). A DPS can pull aggro off a Guardian even after using both taunt and challenging call, and if this is close to the time to swap aggro, the Guardian Tank either taunts back (hence delaying the swap), or holds back the taunt until the swap (hence giving his co-tank a Boss running amock and out of position). It was serious enough that some Guardian tanks used the hybrid spec to have better DPS/TPS. In close fights, tank contribution to DPS matters. This problem was only compounded when Hilt Strike and Guardian Slash received a nerf in one of the patches.

 

Aside from threat, Guardians were the worse tanks in terms of kiting and hold aggro on add spawns or groups of mobs. Guardian tanks simply did not have enough AOE or range DPS. The high threat Guardian abilities were single target melee abilities (there was a time that Guardian Slash was single target).

 

Outside of Enure, Guardians had the lowest HP among the tanks, so there were problems dealing with elemental/internal damage as well as bad RNG.

 

 

 

Guardian tanks are still the only tanks who need to generate their own resources, which outside for melee range they can only do every 30s for minimal focus. (The focus generated from taking damage is also not that much.) Guardian focus generation and threat generation were anything but idiot proof and running anything less than the optimum rotation as well as taunting outside of melee range pretty much ran the risk of DPS pulling aggro off without much effort.

 

A mediocre Shadow was in a much better position than a good Guardian and it simple was they case that Guardians needed much better gear to match Shadow performance. The smoother damage taken profile of the Shadow was pretty much a huge quality of life boost a raid, and higher Shadow tank DPS did make a difference between clearing and not clearing a particular fight.

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That's a good summary of Guardians pre 2.0. Minus the awful synergy of moves and their cooldowns. I admit that Shadows are in a worse state now than Guardians pre 2.0. Yet if we are all going to keep bringing up the state of classes pre 2.0 then we should have the clear full picture.