NERF : Guardian Tanks

[Ephesia]

I guess we need 12 x 31 days for a change .

 

 

 

 

 

Friendly fire were using 1 Shadow Tank +1 Guardian Tank (Kanre) and one guardian off tank (Donal, szia te faszi! ) pre 2.0. They switched according to the FOTM. Colley can't use the shadow he enjoys he has to use Coltan his guardian because its superior in every way. So BioWare screwed these guilds as well. Read a bit more into this before you snap . In addition, just because FF uses guardians as main tanks, we have to keep it low when this class is clearly OP and needs a nerf? What about all these other guilds who had progress postponed by 4 weeks due to the need to reroll guardian? They don't count, yes? Oh crap, I forgot, we have bad healers if we had to reroll guardian

 

 

 

I have a vanguard 55, I tanked SV HM it was a snooze fest. I was shocked at how steady damage is at thrasher and pretty much everywhere. Not seeing 10k hp taken away with one hit was pleasant. Play style for me is a no no and I cannot stand ammo based classes. I also have a guardian who yesterday hit 21 (after 1.5 months) I go in lowbie fps and it is a complete bore. My shadow was way more entertaining at low levels than this. I am aware things will change when i hit 55 but I simply do not have the motivation.

 

I have a sentinel 55, 3k dps, and a while back I rolled a slinger as we had none in our composition. Slinger is level 35 and i cannot stand it. Just because it is FOTM, I should not be forced to play it. In the original Dread NiM release, he who had no slingers/snipers had no chance. So I got back to my sentinel as I cannot get into gunslinger. I also have a sage/sorc, scoundrel, operative, mara and little juggie for achievements. I am done with leveling on BioWare's whims. They need to provide an EQUAL CHANCE for classes to finish content. At this point in time Shadow tanks and Shadow DPS are the worst out there.

 

 

 

NERF GUARDIAN TANKS!

 

I spoke to Kanre, he doesn't agree with you. End of story.

 

This thread is right now pointless as the whining cadre here has already decreed that

 

1) They have no real problems with Guardians

2) They have problems with their own class

3) They couldn't get enough attention to satisfy themselves in their own forum and decided to add the aroma of drama towards here to get the attention to quench their thirst for it.

 

Such childishness, really.

 

And some are like "So what if DPS starts 5 seconds late and doesn't dps what's the big deal lol?"

Guess what, almost all the competitive fights in this game had enrage timers.

 

We had our own troubles, now you may have yours. I hope your problems get fixed, but there will always be cases where a tank might be slightly more susceptible to rng then other classes. Good players are the ones that are vocal about the problem, but in the meantime deal with the problem and not be total drama queens about it. There is no such thing as perfect class balance in any MMORPG in history. A time will come when your class will receive buffs and will enjoy their "FOTM" state that they were prior to 2.0

 

In short. You deal with your own problems.

Edited August 3, 2013 by Ephesia

[Leafy_Bug]

I spoke to Kanre, he doesn't agree with you. End of story.

 

This thread is right now pointless as the whining cadre here has already decreed that

 

1) They have no real problems with Guardians

2) They have problems with their own class

3) They couldn't get enough attention to satisfy themselves in their own forum and decided to add the aroma of drama towards here to get the attention to quench their thirst for it.

 

Such childishness, really.

 

And some are like "So what if DPS starts 5 seconds late and doesn't dps what's the big deal lol?"

Guess what, almost all the competitive fights in this game had enrage timers.

 

We had our own troubles, now you may have yours. I hope your problems get fixed, but there will always be cases where a tank might be slightly more susceptible to rng then other classes. Good players are the ones that are vocal about the problem, but in the meantime deal with the problem and not be total drama queens about it. There is no such thing as perfect class balance in any MMORPG in history. A time will come when your class will receive buffs and will enjoy their "FOTM" state that they were prior to 2.0

 

In short. You deal with your own problems.

 

 

To be completely honest, I do not want a nerf on the guardians. I opened this thread because after months of asking for a balancing, shadow wise, there were no results. Nerf threads always got results so we tried this tune. In my opinion, guardians are where they need to be. The one tank you need to go too when the poo hits the fan. Their cooldowns are fine and saber reflect is a skill needed on this class at launch. Shadows had two major nerfs in the past year and given the direction of the new content, this was uncalled for. As i said many times. any buff to the shadow is not really a buff, it is an admission that they f-ed up by taking stuff away from it. The shadow needs that extra 5 % damage reduction and some of its Armour back. Furthermore, reduce the cd of battle readiness when you are full kinetic spec. Take away the 5% fail on resilience and shadow users are happy. We need a bigger chance to use OUR SKILL and not RNG luck.

 

 

Regarding your final part, where you suggest I need to deal with my problems, this works only so far where RNG gets me killed through deflection at terminate. How am I supposed to deal with that for example or when Sunder one shots me because resilience failed to protect me?

Edited August 3, 2013 by Leafy_Bug

[ArenCordial]

To be completely honest, I do not want a nerf on the guardians. I opened this thread because after months of asking for a balancing, shadow wise, there were no results. Nerf threads always got results so we tried this tune. In my opinion, guardians are where they need to be. The one tank you need to go too when the poo hits the fan. Their cooldowns are fine and saber reflect is a skill needed on this class at launch. Shadows had two major nerfs in the past year and given the direction of the new content, this was uncalled for. As i said many times. any buff to the shadow is not really a buff, it is an admission that they f-ed up by taking stuff away from it. The shadow needs that extra 5 % damage reduction and some of its Armour back. Furthermore, reduce the cd of battle readiness when you are full kinetic spec. Take away the 5% fail on resilience and shadow users are happy. We need a bigger chance to use OUR SKILL and not RNG luck.

 

 

Regarding your final part, where you suggest I need to deal with my problems, this works only so far where RNG gets me killed through deflection at terminate. How am I supposed to deal with that for example or when Sunder one shots me because resilience failed to protect me?

 

Hard to really get that this is your meaning from the thread title . Honestly I don't think Guardians should get nerfed either. Primarily because BioWare is horrible with nerfs. Its like they give the nerf bat to a juiced up Barry Bonds in his prime and say swing away. They aren't some OP demi-god of tanks class that some want to make them out to be. They are in a really good place right now and the question should be, what does Vanguards/Shadows need to preform better and compensate for some of their weaknesses not nerf the Guardians.

 

The problem is BioWare takes a long time to move, that's too much for some. As the Guardians will tell you they've been waiting for some the recent changes they received all the way back to launch. We might see some class changes in 2.4 so hold some hope but don't despair if there's not. In the mean time the best place for this conversation is in your own class threads with your representative. That's kinda why BioWare chose to implement that idea for the community.

Edited August 3, 2013 by ArenCordial

[TridusSWTOR]

You claim that Jugs had more than just threat issues, and then go on to only mention things related to threat issues. Strong argument you make.

 

I guess it's hard reading in between the lines.

 

Kinda how you missed the whole, not having to spec into an entirely different tree to get the best benefit out of your class.

 

If you need me to break it down further for you, I might do that.

[TridusSWTOR]

Cuz, you know, losing all of 3-5 seconds of DPS or telling your DPS to not open up with *everything* right off the bat is *such* a terrible thing to have to deal with. I ran a Guardian tank pre-2.0. The threat problems weren't a big deal in the *least* unless your DPS were complete and total idiots.

 

The hyperbolic and ignorant arguments about Guardians having a hard time pre-2.0 are going *all* kinds of crazy. Having to spec into a different tree because your home tree is poorly built isn't a reason for the class itself to be labelled terrible, especially since the actual difference in performance wasn't actually all that big.

 

How any tank performed pre-2.0 has *no* bearing upon how they're supposed to perform right now. Anyone attempting to bring up pre-2.0 performance as justification for *current* performance is simply arguing that they're *entitled* to their current level of performance rather than actually making a case for balanced performance.

 

Still trolling and flaunting your sense of entitlement around, I see.

 

Welcome to ignore, you add nothing useful to any discussions anymore.

[TridusSWTOR]

Shouldn't you be asking for Sin/Shadow tanks to be buffed instead of asking for the other tanks to be nerfed?

 

Bingo.

 

Talk about entitlement issues.

 

That statement doesn't apply to Leafy_Bug.

Edited August 3, 2013 by TridusSWTOR

[Kitru]

Kinda how you missed the whole, not having to spec into an entirely different tree to get the best benefit out of your class.

 

Except that the difference between the hybrid tank and the pure Guardian tank was tiny. It had *slightly* better threat and *slightly* better mitigation. It also has absolutely nothing to do with the relative performance of the AC. Having to go outside of your tree or use a hybrid in order to be effective has no bearing upon the balance state of your *actual* performance. What matters is *how* you performed, not what spec you used to get there.

 

Seriously, you keep bringing up issues completely unrelated to balance as if they actually mattered. It's like you're not even cognizant of what balance actually *is*. You're just bringing up old issues that existed but didn't actually affect balance.

[Berjiz]

Am I the only the actually thinsk Guardians should be nerfed a bit? They are bit over the top atm, not much though. I think some of their migation should be switched from armour to shield/absorb to actually make them more spiky than VGs. Also their cds could use slightly longer cooldowns, especially saber reflect needs to be looked at. Possibly compensated by giving them more aoe threat somehow.

But the important thing would be to do small changes and not broad sweeping nerfs that BW seems to like so much.

[leto_cleon]

Except that the difference between the hybrid tank and the pure Guardian tank was tiny.

 

Not true. Having tanked both the hybrid and defence pre-2.0, the performance of the full defence spec was much higher than the hybrid. I started out as hybrid, and then I tried what Moonstriker (tankingtor.com) was doing in full defence (http://www.tankingtor.com/2012/02/swtor-juggernautguardian-tanking-guide.html). In terms of play, Defence's performance was much higher.

 

It had *slightly* better threat and *slightly* better mitigation. It also has absolutely nothing to do with the relative performance of the AC.

 

Guardian threat actually performed much better in the full defence guardian. In terms of mitigation, the full effect of the hybrid spec meant needing to use force leap of cooldown. In fights where the operations bosses needed to be positioned, which pretty much was most fights, the unremitting buff pretty much was hardly up.

 

Hybrid Guardians might have had better DPS, but for TPS and snap threat, the full defence guardians (who used a highest threat priority as opposed to highest damage priority) was ahead. Prior to the changes to the defence tree, the hybrid guardian might have been better, but the changes to the defence tree did put full defence ahead.

[Marb]

Not true. Having tanked both the hybrid and defence pre-2.0, the performance of the full defence spec was much higher than the hybrid. I started out as hybrid, and then I tried what Moonstriker (tankingtor.com) was doing in full defence (http://www.tankingtor.com/2012/02/swtor-juggernautguardian-tanking-guide.html). In terms of play, Defence's performance was much higher.

 

Guardian threat actually performed much better in the full defence guardian. In terms of mitigation, the full effect of the hybrid spec meant needing to use force leap of cooldown. In fights where the operations bosses needed to be positioned, which pretty much was most fights, the unremitting buff pretty much was hardly up.

 

Hybrid Guardians might have had better DPS, but for TPS and snap threat, the full defence guardians (who used a highest threat priority as opposed to highest damage priority) was ahead. Prior to the changes to the defence tree, the hybrid guardian might have been better, but the changes to the defence tree did put full defence ahead.

 

Hybrid was better at taking damage due to the higher passive DR and the reduced cooldown on blade storm, it had nothing to do with unremitting. Total threat was slightly higher with a hybrid if it was played correctly, but many would argue that it wasn't the prime reason to spec for hybrid. I would agree with you that the actual difference in raw TPS was no where near as large as some suggest when comparing both specs being played optimally. Hybrid had lower threat modifiers but had higher raw damage, and with proper play it would yield a higher overall net threat result.

 

Speccing hybrid never really magically solved guard threat problems as some people suggested, I found its main appeal for me was just being better at taking damage. Taunt fluffing was always there as a crutch anyway, and I would agree with the opinion that the issue of guardian threat pre 2.0 was (and still is) massively over emphasized.

Edited August 4, 2013 by Marb

[Yngow]

and I would agree with the opinion that the issue of guardian threat pre 2.0 was (and still is) massively over emphasized.

Definitely never a problem to me, subpar? yes, problem for progression? no. I'd actually do many fights on my jugg instead of my pt before 2.0 due to amazing cooldowns. Threat is always something manageable since aggro dumps are really effective in this game, taunt works in a very oh crap-friendly way, taunt is on a very short cd and many fights will not require you to tank the boss all the time but tank swap instead. But it really sucked on big trash pulls for aoe threat.

[leto_cleon]

Hybrid was better at taking damage due to the higher passive DR and the reduced cooldown on blade storm, it had nothing to do with unremitting.

 

Hybrid Guardians optimally would be guardian leaping to get distance and then leaping back in for the 4s 20% damage reduction. This on top of the extra passive damage reduction allowed hybrid 'leap monkeys' to be pretty competitive. In most cases this however, was not practical. Of course not constantly having the buff wasn't fatal, but in terms of design, that was part of the thinking behind getting unremitting from the skill tree.

 

Hmm... in terms of a shorter blade storm cooldown, although it meant that the DR buff from it was constantly up, blade storm did have a lower threat generation priority, so it was sometimes DR vs threat. (I'm just too rusty on the specifics)

 

But it really sucked on big trash pulls for aoe threat.

Yep and Saber Reflect is a massive boost for Guardians quite a number of pulls. Outside of saber reflect, force sweep + cyclone slash, just doesn't cut it at all. Edited August 4, 2013 by leto_cleon

[wadecounty]

I appreciate Kitru's input, as he often has amazing suggestions from a mathematical standpoint, although I take it with a grain of salt because he's always been biased towards his Shadow compared to his Guardian and has admitted as much in the past.

 

As for those dismissing Guardian threat and damage issues pre 2.0 as a minor inconvenience, I disagree from the standpoint that we aren't only discussing operations/raids. If that is all you care about in the game, then yes, but in truth that's only around 5% of the game's content. When you consider things such as the leveling experience, flashpoints, tanking trash, soloing, being able to complete heroics by yourself.... Shadows came out way ahead in all of these areas pre 2.0, along with being the premiere operations tank.

 

In post 2.0, yes Guardians have surged ahead as the preferred operations tank, but they're still equal or lagging behind in many of those other areas I mentioned. Now while I'd like to see changes that balance the tanks in terms of operations, and wouldn't mind if some of those changes involved a slight nerf to Guardian damage mitigation, if those changes include altering things that have finally made the Guardian tank a fun class to play in all those other areas of the game (such as Saber Reflect or the vastly improved Guardian Slash), I'd have to vehemently oppose those changes.

 

In other words, I'm good with under the hood changes to the class, but only if they do NOT touch any of the gameplay mechanics, and only if they focus on mitigation, not damage dealt. The way the class plays and feels now is in a very good place.

Edited August 8, 2013 by wadecounty

[Kitru]

In other words, I'm good with under the hood changes to the class, but only if they do NOT touch any of the gameplay mechanics, and only if they focus on mitigation, not damage dealt. The way the class plays and feels now is in a very good place.

 

I don't think anyone is suggesting that anything be done to Guardian threat, beyond adding a *little* bit more AoE threat capability to stuff other than Saber Reflect (I've always liked the idea of having Saber Throw cleave to up to 4 nearby targets) and reigning in the activation threat of Saber Reflect (9k to a 30m radius is *huge* and borders on OP; pull it down to an 8-15m radius and it'll at least require the AoE taunt to be as disgustingly good as it is now).

 

The only things that I've suggested have been bringing the Guardian CD suite back in line (get rid of the Warding Call and Saber Ward CD redux parts of those talents) and swapping out the extra armor rating and DR on Guardian Slash for 5% Shield and 15% Absorb. The first is to get back to the old balance state of the CD suites: Guardians have the longer CDs that are general and better for raw spikes whereas Shadows have the shorter CDs with specific application. The second is to give VGs back their "smooth incoming damage" schtick as well as to give Guardians a reason to actually *like* Shield and Absorb.

[wadecounty]

I don't think anyone is suggesting that anything be done to Guardian threat, beyond adding a *little* bit more AoE threat capability to stuff other than Saber Reflect (I've always liked the idea of having Saber Throw cleave to up to 4 nearby targets) and reigning in the activation threat of Saber Reflect (9k to a 30m radius is *huge* and borders on OP; pull it down to an 8-15m radius and it'll at least require the AoE taunt to be as disgustingly good as it is now).

 

The only things that I've suggested have been bringing the Guardian CD suite back in line (get rid of the Warding Call and Saber Ward CD redux parts of those talents) and swapping out the extra armor rating and DR on Guardian Slash for 5% Shield and 15% Absorb. The first is to get back to the old balance state of the CD suites: Guardians have the longer CDs that are general and better for raw spikes whereas Shadows have the shorter CDs with specific application. The second is to give VGs back their "smooth incoming damage" schtick as well as to give Guardians a reason to actually *like* Shield and Absorb.

 

This all sounds sensible and reasonable to me. Not 100% sold on the cooldowns though, Shadows still hold the advantage in having their cooldowns available when they need them, Force Shroud's effectively up every 45 seconds or less and Deflection every 2 minutes while Guardians have to wait 1 minute for Saber Reflect and 2:30 for Saber Ward and Warding Call. What it shakes out to is Guardians have better cooldowns for handling ranged attacks and damage that can't be mitigated through shield or defense, while Shadows have the advantage for mitigating Force/Tech bursts (not limited by AOE attacks) and more on demand melee/ranged defense.

 

Warding Call is really the skill that unbalances the two classes if anything, and I'd rather see Shadows receive a general DR cooldown (other than what Overcharge Saber does) than see Warding Call nerfed in some way. By the same token, it would be good if the Vanguards could get some sort of short duration, on demand ranged/melee defense cooldown, besides Riot Gas of course.

[Leafy_Bug]

BioWare does not change one class without nerfing another. It has been the way of the samurai since the game came out. They do not speak 'buff shadows, don't touch guardians'.

 

 

So nerf guardians the faceroll tank! Clearing TWH NiM with a full arkanian guardian tank FTW! . Dropping to low HP most of the time as a BIS 72 Shadow tank FTW!!

Edited August 9, 2013 by Leafy_Bug

[PlasmaJohn]

BioWare does not change one class without nerfing another.

Class adjustments land all at once with no subtlety at all. Because one block was out of place, they knock the whole castle down and start over. Time to put away the jackhammer and pull out the jeweler's loupe and tweezers.

[Leafy_Bug]

Class adjustments land all at once with no subtlety at all. Because one block was out of place, they knock the whole castle down and start over. Time to put away the jackhammer and pull out the jeweler's loupe and tweezers.

 

 

A while back the gaming industry used to pride itself with a high level of competent employees. As time went by and economists took over the world to milk people for a lot of money and do as little as possible, quality control and quality programming has gone down the drain. To wait half a year for a change in a broken class also shows ignorance and incompetence. Sure guardians waited a year for a threat fix and shadows all of a sudden have to wait a year to survive a boss. Same thing really . Class balancing suffers cartel market thrives. This could be the new SWTOR advert!

Edited August 9, 2013 by Leafy_Bug

[EFSoupy]

This all sounds sensible and reasonable to me. Not 100% sold on the cooldowns though, Shadows still hold the advantage in having their cooldowns available when they need them, Force Shroud's effectively up every 45 seconds or less and Deflection every 2 minutes while Guardians have to wait 1 minute for Saber Reflect and 2:30 for Saber Ward and Warding Call. What it shakes out to is Guardians have better cooldowns for handling ranged attacks and damage that can't be mitigated through shield or defense, while Shadows have the advantage for mitigating Force/Tech bursts (not limited by AOE attacks) and more on demand melee/ranged defense.

 

My understanding of the strength of def cds and the downtime between use is that, while with guardians and vanguards they're abilities to make life easier (also "OH %$@%!!!" buttons), with shadows, they're much more of a necessity. Shadows should get a strong set of cds, but that's because if their cds aren't used properly, they are a much more difficult tank to heal. Guardians and vanguards missing a cd isn't as much of a problem as a shadow missing the cd. The added power of cds is the reward for having less room for error.

[Kitru]

Guardians and vanguards missing a cd isn't as much of a problem as a shadow missing the cd. The added power of cds is the reward for having less room for error.

 

Actually, the longer CDs that Guardians have on their CDs was, originally, part of the "cost" of having those CDs apply to all effects. Since then, it's gotten kind of weird with the devs doing very strange things to the comparative CD suites. Warding Call and Saber Ward apply to both F/T and M/R damage. Deflection and Resilience only apply to M/R and F/T damage, respectively. The lower CDs on them were to justify the specificity, which meant that they had to be used based upon what *type* of damage was coming in, not just *whether* damage was coming in.

 

Post-2.0, it's gotten kind of funky. Saber Reflect has some specificity of use, but it's really just "is it not a melee attack or an AoE", which generally tend to be pretty obvious. Shadows got Battle Readiness turned into a legit CD, so they're not as specific (though they still have 2/3 that are specific). Even so, the longer CDs on Saber Ward and Warding Call are intended to reflect the fact that they are *still*, while active, the strongest general CDs in the game.

 

As to the downtime of the CDs themselves, if you actually look at the use rate of the abilities that they have to be used against, the difference between the CD of Resilience and Saber Reflect is pointless: there are no attacks that come at 50 second intervals, where Resilience *would* be up but Saber Reflect wouldn't. The same is true for Deflection/Battle Readiness and Saber Ward/Warding Call: there aren't any big attacks that hit every 135 seconds. The attacks that CDs have to be used against either come up *earlier* than Def/BR would recharge or *after* SW/WC. Essentially, the CD differences are negligible because there isn't any effective difference.

 

As such, Guardians get CDs that are easy to use and very general, more effective than what Shadows get thanks to applying to all scenarios rather than just specific ones (even if used in the same situations, they provide the same effective benefits: Saber Ward and Deflection are both 50% Defense; BR's additional DR equates to a 40% reduction in K/E, which is what Warding Call provides), and, as far as the practical use rates are concerned, available exactly as often. The only advantage that Shadows have is in Resilience, which applies to *all* F/T attacks rather than just ST ones (of which there are continually fewer, which makes the one advantage of Shadows even smaller; also, Resilience isn't even 100% reliable thanks the the 5% hit chance floor the devs stealth added a year ago without telling anyone or even knowing about it themselves until a couple months ago).

[MillionsKNives]

The only advantage that Shadows have is in Resilience, which applies to *all* F/T attacks rather than just ST ones (of which there are continually fewer, which makes the one advantage of Shadows even smaller; also, Resilience isn't even 100% reliable thanks the the 5% hit chance floor the devs stealth added a year ago without telling anyone or even knowing about it themselves until a couple months ago).

 

Taking 28k in HM S&V through force shroud and dying last night to huge grenade was not pretty. Taking huge grenade each time so that I can force shroud it only works so far as force shroud doesn't completely fail.

[Leafy_Bug]

Taking 28k in HM S&V through force shroud and dying last night to huge grenade was not pretty. Taking huge grenade each time so that I can force shroud it only works so far as force shroud doesn't completely fail.

 

I learned that if you count to 3 and then use resilience, the grenade won't kill you but instead will knock you on your ***. You know resilience is immune to knockbacks oh wait I forgot, working as intended where I am supposed to fall on my *** with resilience on .

Edited August 9, 2013 by Leafy_Bug

[MillionsKNives]

I learned that if you count to 3 and then use resilience, the grenade won't kill you but instead will knock you on your ***. You know resilience is immune to knockbacks oh wait I forgot, working as intended where I am supposed to fall on my *** with resilience on .

 

It wasn't a problem of force shroud wearing off, it was a problem of it hitting right through it (5% baseline hit chance). The grenade only hit like 3.8 second after I activated it.

[Ephesia]

Schadenfreude at it's best with some of the shadow tanks here. They admit it too.

 

At any rate, they are just trolling now.

 

This "my class is bad so other classes must be brought down a level below me to make sure I am the prominent tank choice again" is a pathetic but an oddly humanlike thought pattern after all.

[Kitru]

The best part of this is you have no reasonable argument to make your case.

 

I'm very curious as to how my arguments *aren't* reasonable. Hell, I still find it amusing that you're incapable of discussing balance without bringing up the previous Guardian *threat* performance as a justification for their *current* performance, wherein they're effectively the best at everything.

 

You can say that I'm unreasonable all you want but, until you actually bring in arguments that don't simply bring up your own sense of entitlement over *previous* bad design as a justification for current performance (I still facepalm at your "hybrid before means we cans be OP now!" argument), you're don't really have any ground to stand on.

 

You can attempt to invent justifications all you want, but I'm using numbers and basic logic. You've only ever used rhetoric to "prove" your side of the argument.