NERF : Guardian Tanks

[Vaidinah]

One of the problems is that their "fixing" has made things more inbalanced since saber reflect either works on it or works on it after the change. Just look at the changes to Xeno, tfb scream, huge greande.

 

The only one of those that's true is TFB Scream in NiM as far as I know. Xeno HM is definitely easier as an Assassin because Force Cloak still works and you also have Phase Walk. Juggernaughts have to LoS to not get obliterated and they have to do it very quickly. You literally have to stand near a pillar if you don't want blow a big cooldown. Defense chance doesn't do anything against Huge Grenade in NiM for some reason as explained elsewhere. The idea that Juggernaughts would have no issues with Huge Grenade due to Blade Turning was not proven to be true when NiM S & V came out.

 

So where exactly does saber reflect not work while force shroud does? They both have cds short enough aswell to be up for when you need it. The only exception I can think of is trasher swipe but that one comes pretty often.

 

Blade turning has the same 5% chance to still hit bug as force shroud.

 

Saber Reflect doesn't work on AoE attacks, although what constitutes an AoE attack is fairly wonky. For example, in TC HM, you can Saber Reflect the Orbital Strike (giant purple circle) that targets players even though it strikes nearby players. The clearest examples I know of for where Force Shroud works when Saber Reflect doesn't is during times when bosses jump up and down on your face (like the frog mini-boss). Another example is during Lightning Field on HM/NiM TFB Dread Guard bosses.

Edited July 31, 2013 by Vaidinah

[Leafy_Bug]

The only one of those that's true is TFB Scream in NiM as far as I know. Xeno HM is definitely easier as an Assassin because Force Cloak still works and you also have Phase Walk. Juggernaughts have to LoS to not get obliterated and they have to do it very quickly. You literally have to stand near a pillar if you don't want blow a big cooldown. Defense chance doesn't do anything against Huge Grenade in NiM for some reason as explained elsewhere. The idea that Juggernaughts would have no issues with Huge Grenade due to Blade Turning was not proven to be true when NiM S & V came out.

 

 

 

 

Our guardian tanks have an ability that allows them to 'guardian leap' to someone who is close to the pillar. While shadows do not have this ability but they have phasewalk, as you can see once again Guardians have an exit strategy. So shadows use force cloak to break the cast or phase walk to LOS while guardians use a cooldown and LOS or guardian leap +LOS. 2 for the shadow 2 for the guardian. I think the vanguard is the gimped one here.

 

 

Saber reflect works all the time, resilience does not. Resilience tends to fail when you need it most causing a death. I would like to weigh blade turning and resilience to see which is more important to survival. It seems that both blade turning and resilience share the same bug. Which tank suffers most, the shadow or the guardian due to this 5% crap BioWare ignores.

Edited July 31, 2013 by Leafy_Bug

[Nursejenna]

Nerf Guardian Tanks. In the current state of the game, they are a faceroll class where you get a significant advantage compared to other classes, especially Shadow. We have recently cleared SV HM with a 31k guardian duo without bonus set or any optimizations. Guardian cooldowns are too good at the moment and the way Jesse Sky is pushing content to favour them even more is ludicrous.

 

 

Conclusion : bring the tanks in line and someone tell Jesse Sky that SWTOR is not his playground where he changes stuff as he deems fit slapping the thousands of Shadow players in the face.

 

(clears throat: insert pouty voice here)

Nerf Guardian Tanks! It's not fair!...I rolled a shadow because they were the best tank and now they aren't...*stomps foot* I don't like it! Fiixxxx ittttt Now!

 

or perhaps leave the Guards alone since they are in a happy place at the moment and look at where improvements could be made to other classes...perhaps take a look at vanguard tanking atm.

 

And congrats on the hm kill - as most guilds with any capability cleared when they were in 63's

 

Good day to you!

[Olostur]

I tanked the last 30% of Dashroode HM on my sentinel once when both tanks were dead. Sentinels must be better tanks than shadows! Nerf them too! Edited July 31, 2013 by Olostur

[Panzerfire]

I tanked the last 30% of Dashroode HM on my sentinel once when both tanks were dead. Sentinels must be better tanks than shadows! Nerf them too!

 

Sentinels tank the first Terminate on NiM mode because Bioware decided that Shadows shouldn't be able to reliable progress past that boss.

[Leafy_Bug]

Sentinels tank the first Terminate on NiM mode because Bioware decided that Shadows shouldn't be able to reliable progress past that boss.

 

QED, nerf guardians

[Vaidinah]

Our guardian tanks have an ability that allows them to 'guardian leap' to someone who is close to the pillar. While shadows do not have this ability but they have phasewalk, as you can see once again Guardians have an exit strategy. So shadows use force cloak to break the cast or phase walk to LOS while guardians use a cooldown and LOS or guardian leap +LOS. 2 for the shadow 2 for the guardian. I think the vanguard is the gimped one here.

 

You can Guardian Leap to a teammate, but I don't recommend it because it's much easier on your healers to just run away and be in position to LoS the boss before Thermal Tolerance occurs. Vanguards do appear to be worst oft here, but Assassins are definitely the best tanks on this fight.

 

Saber reflect works all the time, resilience does not. Resilience tends to fail when you need it most causing a death. I would like to weigh blade turning and resilience to see which is more important to survival. It seems that both blade turning and resilience share the same bug. Which tank suffers most, the shadow or the guardian due to this 5% crap BioWare ignores.

 

Yes, Resilience can fail and this should clearly be fixed. Now Resilience failing is obviously much worse. My point, though, is that I don't think it was some evil developer's unrelenting hatred of Shadows/Assassins that caused this issue when something similar happens with Blade Turning. It's just a mistake.

[PifferPuff]

I was checking out EVE yesterday. It looks pretty fun. I might have to download it.

 

Yup. It's an interesting game. There is some PvE, LOT of PvP, and an even larger meta-game - especially when you join up with a player corp. This game, however, has a fairly steep learning curve, and does require patience: skill points (and skills) are trained up at a mostly fixed rate (regardless if you are online or not), so no amount of grinding will 'level up' your skills faster. Only remaps, implants and like one or two types of limited-time newbie boosters will speed up skilling in certain types of skills. Good luck!

 

 

... My point, though, is that I don't think it was some evil developer's unrelenting hatred of Shadows/Assassins that caused this issue when something similar happens with Blade Turning. It's just a mistake.

 

I'm not so sure about that. We've received nerfs, time and time again; to the best of my knowledge, we have never received any buffs: It's NERF or Nothin'™ But seriously though, these devs seem to vehemently dislike the stealth-tank class in this game. Otherwise, they wouldn't go out of their way to intentionally break them, and nerf them into the ground.

[leto_cleon]

Saber reflect works all the time,

 

Actually no. If for example an attack that could be reflected is first shielded, it is not reflected. So a Guardian tank can still take damage during saber reflect. The defensive rolls happen first before anything is reflected.

[Sangrar]

Nerf Guardian Tanks. In the current state of the game, they are a faceroll class where you get a significant advantage compared to other classes, especially Shadow. We have recently cleared SV HM with a 31k guardian duo without bonus set or any optimizations. Guardian cooldowns are too good at the moment and the way Jesse Sky is pushing content to favour them even more is ludicrous.

 

 

Conclusion : bring the tanks in line and someone tell Jesse Sky that SWTOR is not his playground where he changes stuff as he deems fit slapping the thousands of Shadow players in the face.

 

The point of a tank is to absorb damage, guardian tanks are doing that, instead of asking to make them into just as crappy tanks as shadows and thereby ruining tanking in this game ask for new defensive abilities for shadow to make them better instead of trying to bring everyone else down into the mud with you.

And besides I have seen some good shadow tanks during ops runs before I don't see the problem.

[MillionsKNives]

The point of a tank is to absorb damage, guardian tanks are doing that, instead of asking to make them into just as crappy tanks as shadows and thereby ruining tanking in this game ask for new defensive abilities for shadow to make them better instead of trying to bring everyone else down into the mud with you.

And besides I have seen some good shadow tanks during ops runs before I don't see the problem.

 

The point is that they've BEEN doing that. There have been threads up for months discussing the issue with shadows/assassins and suggesting fixes. That has not worked. So some have decided to take a page from the playbook of other posters, whom seem to have better luck in getting a response, and have made a thread asking for nerfs. As far as I've seen none of them actually want to nerf Guardians, but they want SOMETHING to be done.

 

It's like when a child doesn't get his way and decides to throw a temper tantrum. But in this scenario the parent has a past history of only responding when the child actually throws a tantrum, and completely ignores him otherwise. This leads the child to conclude that a tantrum is the only way to get his way.

Edited July 31, 2013 by MillionsKNives

[Leafy_Bug]

The point is that they've BEEN doing that. There have been threads up for months discussing the issue with shadows/assassins and suggesting fixes. That has not worked. So some have decided to take a page from the playbook of other posters, whom seem to have better luck in getting a response, and have made a thread asking for nerfs. As far as I've seen none of them actually want to nerf Guardians, but they want SOMETHING to be done.

 

It's like when a child doesn't get his way and decides to throw a temper tantrum. But in this scenario the parent has a past history of only responding when the child actually throws a tantrum, and completely ignores him otherwise. This leads the child to conclude that a tantrum is the only way to get his way.

 

 

 

This sums up exactly my feelings and the reason I opened this thread. You Sir, need a drink and I am buying! I commend you for seeing this matter objectively. I do not give a rats *** about Guardians ....

 

Actually no. If for example an attack that could be reflected is first shielded, it is not reflected. So a Guardian tank can still take damage during saber reflect. The defensive rolls happen first before anything is reflected.

 

Granted but that is the way the CD is designed, whereas resilience fails for no apparent reason. Either the effect wears off after 2s eventhough you are in the 5s spec, either you get one shot because of the 5% > than 200% resistance. A quick reminder, until 1.4 resilience worked fine and not even god could make a tech attack pass through it. We would also have the 'unremitting' effect so to say against bosses and in pvp. How many times have i duelled with someone and won by stacking up resilience with 3xHS+tk throw? They could not intrerrupt that and now I can be stunned, knocked back, flashbanged, and even force pulled. Don't tell me that an operative healer with 90% accuracy has a 5% chance to flash bang me .

 

 

To conclude, apart from blade turning which is not a life and death cooldown, everything on the guardian works as intended. On the shadow, things do not work as intended and they haven't for half a year! When you see that one class is constantly improved and the other is constantly neglected you cannot avoid the question : why the bias Jesse SKY?

 

 

People constantly tell me 'but leafy, pre 2.0 Guardians were crap, they could not hold aggro. They needed these fixes'. I look at them and say, granted, they had aggro issues and we had countless of wipes in denova NiM especially at the tanks until I started to pull first the Double Destruction tank. So the solution for lack of aggro was to have the shadow tank pull first and then on switch the guardian would have no issues afterwards. The problem is not the same today. You cannot start with a guardian and then switch the boss to a shadow making it good. The solution is to avoid tanking with the shadow for prolonged periods of time. I have tanked 16m HM content and I killed thrasher by main tanking him on my shadow. Our kill was with me dead practically at the end.

 

 

Not having enough aggro in the first 3 GCDs was easily solved by creating a switch scenario where the taunt from the guardian would put him on top of the aggro table allowing him to maintain threat. So from a tank that needed a boost in threat so those 3 GCDs allowed it to keep aggro, the Guardian has become the best at everything while the Shadow has skills that do not even work as they did in the past. Again, where is the professional attitude from developers? They do not treat us with respect at all when they completely ignore our constructive posts for months. Eric finally replies and Jesse SKY replies in the 'separate HM from NiM' mode thread. That was probably one of the biggest insults we the shadow class community have received after being so nice and so constructive.

Edited July 31, 2013 by Leafy_Bug

[PlasmaJohn]

Again, where is the professional attitude from developers? They do not treat us with respect at all when they completely ignore our constructive posts for months. Eric finally replies and Jesse SKY replies in the 'separate HM from NiM' mode thread. That was probably one of the biggest insults we the shadow class community have received after being so nice and so constructive.

As much as I agree with what you've said, I think the target of your ire in that statement is misdirected. Mr. Sky deserves some criticism for designing boss mechanics that exploit an abysmal mitigation profile design. Management deserves even more for not rolling it back or addressing the issue in a timely fashion. The dev responsible for class balance is Mr. Peckenpaugh and it is he who seems to be asleep at the switch.

[Kitru]

The dev responsible for class balance is Mr. Peckenpaugh and it is he who seems to be asleep at the switch.

 

Supposedly, there's an entire "combat team" so I have to wonder how exactly Peckenpaugh can be the sole individual in charge of class balance (as he's stated several times, though we have neither seen nor heard from him since RotHC was in beta).

 

The complete lack of *any* real class balancing since RotHC released is one of the more fundamentally perturbing aspects of this entire situation. I'm seriously curious how it could *possibly* take 7 months (the projected date for 2.4) to bring in any kind of rebalancing.

[ArchangelLBC]

Yes, Resilience can fail and this should clearly be fixed. Now Resilience failing is obviously much worse. My point, though, is that I don't think it was some evil developer's unrelenting hatred of Shadows/Assassins that caused this issue when something similar happens with Blade Turning. It's just a mistake.

 

Normally I'm all for ascribing to incompetence and stupidity what others would ascribe to malice where the devs are concerned but we know for a fact that the devs are aware of the resilience bugs. Their answer? "Yeah we know that's frustrating when you get hit with something that you shouldn't have, but everything has a 5% chance to hit, so working as intended".

 

So if that's not dev's unrelenting hatred, it's CERTAINLY the dev's unrelenting laziness where non-guardians are concerned.

[Yngow]

not to mention that the answer for the whole shadow issue was "we are aware and looking into it"

[ArchangelLBC]

Haven't heard a peep from them really after they said they were looking into it. Given the models provided by three very good theory crafters, I can only assume they are hoping this class rep thing throws people off the scent. "Sorry shadows, we can't pay attention to you for another 6 weeks".

[kennethdale]

Let me see if I understand this correctly: Pre2.0 Jugg initial threat was bad enough regardless of gear that it caused wipes in specific encounters forcing people to have a sin start fights,and the jugg taunt off after initial threat. Post 2.0 Sin rng is bad enough regardless of gear that it can cause wipes in specific encounters forcing people to use a different ac to wait no. All of those have also been downed with a shadow tank. Hmmm.

 

So it took from launch until 2.0 to fix Jugg threat. But Bioware, a major software company, should halt all previously promised or,scheduled development to fix an issue that affects >1% of its customer base for a single game and even then only in extremely specific instances involving what boils down to random number generation. Further, they should ignore all other class and advanced class development/balance in the future to focus all their attention on this single advances class as a small portion of the small number of people affected by the above issue feel that in spite of previous superiority compared to other advanced classes this advanced class is often neglected and maligned by developers. Good call.

Edited August 1, 2013 by kennethdale

[Kitru]

Pre2.0 Jugg initial threat was bad enough regardless of gear that it caused wipes in specific encounters forcing people to have a sin start fights,and the jugg taunt off after initial threat.

 

What were these "specific encounters" where Shadows were forced to take over for initial threat generation? There wasn't any "forced to" not use a Guardian in the least. The only time you'd be "forced to" have a different tank generate said alpha threat if you had overeager DPS couldn't keep it in their pants for 3-5 seconds which had an unnoticeable impact upon actual DPS.

 

It was an entirely controllable circumstance that, were it applied to all tanks rather than just one, would be an accepted fact of tanking in TOR without people complaining in the least. On the other hand, if any tank could randomly fall over dead thanks to bad RNG rather than just Shadows, the entire tanking community would be up in arms about the complete bull-**** of it all.

 

Guardian threat pre-2.0 is completely impossible to equate with Shadow tanking currently. Threat generation is *designed* to be a negligible consideration. Taunt spamming turns it into a completely joke as long as your DPS aren't so overeager to get it started that they *make* it a problem. Tank survivability, on the other hand, is *designed* to be the biggest factor affecting tanks. If you can fall over dead for reasons entirely outside of your control, it's *definitely* a problem no matter who you're running with. People who compare the two have absolutely *no* idea what they're talking about and are either simply looking for excuses to dismiss the Shadow tank concerns at the moment or are deluding themselves into believing that things were worse for them than they *ever* were historically.

[Berjiz]

The only one of those that's true is TFB Scream in NiM as far as I know. Xeno HM is definitely easier as an Assassin because Force Cloak still works and you also have Phase Walk. Juggernaughts have to LoS to not get obliterated and they have to do it very quickly. You literally have to stand near a pillar if you don't want blow a big cooldown. Defense chance doesn't do anything against Huge Grenade in NiM for some reason as explained elsewhere. The idea that Juggernaughts would have no issues with Huge Grenade due to Blade Turning was not proven to be true when NiM S & V came out.

.

 

Saber reflect works on huge grenade nim I think? And yeah defense with huge grenade is wonky.

[kennethdale]

Kitru, I know how much you love typing just to see your picture but try at least also reading the posts of the people on that same side as you leafy pointed out a specific example on the last page. But feel free to continue to rant and rage since you love it so much.

[WillLongstick]

I'm going to weigh in as a pre-2.0 hybrid Jugg. Most of the NIM EC or HM TFB fights could have threat issues resolved by either letting the Sin tank pull first (WH, Op 9, Kephess, Vorgath, phase 2 Terror), or by waiting or being forced to wait to DPS (DG, T&Z, EC Kephess). That left the NIM Tanks and phase 1 of the Terror as the real threat test. The EC Tanks were a tight enough DPS check that you couldn't hold the DPS, and the timing of the swap kept taunt fluffing from being heavily used. Phase 1 of the Terror made each tank in the raid accountable for holding threat 4 separate times, but there was no penalty for taunt fluffing.

 

The EC tanks were really the only 1.4-2.0 fight that a Jugg tank could wipe the raid by losing aggro (which I did even after earning the Warstalker title several times over and having no issues with phase 1 of the Terror).

 

Now where can Sin tanks wipe the raid now? Most progression fights and some HM fights. 8 man Writhing Horror dropped my co-tank in 2 seconds on one of our first few pulls. Kephess the Undying Power Punched his face in during our progression kill.

 

Then there's a really key point when trying to compare pre-2.0 Jugg threat to current Sin spikiness. Pre-2.0 Juggs could solve the issue the vast majority of the time with skill. But Sins can't out skill a bad set of defense/shield rolls.

[Vaidinah]

I'm going to weigh in as a pre-2.0 hybrid Jugg. Most of the NIM EC or HM TFB fights could have threat issues resolved by either letting the Sin tank pull first (WH, Op 9, Kephess, Vorgath, phase 2 Terror), or by waiting or being forced to wait to DPS (DG, T&Z, EC Kephess). That left the NIM Tanks and phase 1 of the Terror as the real threat test. The EC Tanks were a tight enough DPS check that you couldn't hold the DPS, and the timing of the swap kept taunt fluffing from being heavily used. Phase 1 of the Terror made each tank in the raid accountable for holding threat 4 separate times, but there was no penalty for taunt fluffing.

 

The EC tanks were really the only 1.4-2.0 fight that a Jugg tank could wipe the raid by losing aggro (which I did even after earning the Warstalker title several times over and having no issues with phase 1 of the Terror).

 

Now where can Sin tanks wipe the raid now? Most progression fights and some HM fights. 8 man Writhing Horror dropped my co-tank in 2 seconds on one of our first few pulls. Kephess the Undying Power Punched his face in during our progression kill.

 

Then there's a really key point when trying to compare pre-2.0 Jugg threat to current Sin spikiness. Pre-2.0 Juggs could solve the issue the vast majority of the time with skill. But Sins can't out skill a bad set of defense/shield rolls.

 

You are forgetting the fact that Juggernaughts also did significantly less damage than Assassins, which meant that extra damage needed to be made up by the rest of your team. Due to the fact that Juggernaughts also required more outside healing to keep up, healers couldn't help with damage as much as well. Even completely discounting threat completely, using a Juggernaught tank lowered your team's damage overall. Thus, the Juggernaught was a strictly inferior choice for almost every fight in the game since spikiness was almost never an issue and was the sole significant benefit to bringing them. I know some people think tank damage doesn't matter, but they have been proven wrong many times as certain encounters had heavy DPS checks. Even the ones who don't, an Assassin tanking over a Juggernaught could have made up for mistakes that people made and passed enrages they'd have completely avoided just not being a Juggernaught. You could get around the Juggernaught's terrible threat through various means like skill, but there was absolutely nothing you could do to do the same damage as an equivalent Assassin and that's even including using the hybrid spec.

 

The past issues with Guardians were more significant than the current "spikiness" rant people go on today. The fact of the matter is outside of truly extraordinary circumstances, any time you die as an Assassin is due to a mistake made on the part of the Assassin and/or his team. If you can't handle the main weakness of your class, then it's your fault. The fact that some teams aren't having issues with surviving the content in NiM and others are on Shadows/Assassins alone proves that the issue is not a matter of RNG. It's due to a combination of skill and strategy.

Edited August 1, 2013 by Vaidinah

[Kitru]

Even completely discounting threat completely, using a Juggernaught tank lowered your team's damage overall.

 

Guardians were pulling, at worst, 100 DPS less than a similarly capable Shadow or VG in top tier content. In an 8m ops group, that 100 DPS was 1% of total DPS (4 DPS at 1.9k, 2 tanks at 1k as baseline). You'd see a bigger difference out of conditional lag than you would out of Guardian DPS rather than the others. On top of that, on the split DPS fights that were all over EC, you'd actually see a DPS increase outside of specific compositions with several layers of redundant armor debuffs thanks to Guardians bringing an armor debuff.

 

I know some people think tank damage doesn't matter, but they have been proven wrong many times as certain encounters had heavy DPS checks.

 

If you're blaming your tank for not dealing enough damage, you're doing something wrong. If you're hitting enrage timers, it's not the tank's fault. It's the DPSs fault. If you're blaming the lack of 100 DPS from a tank, you *seriously* need to look at the 100-200 DPS that's missing from the rest of your DPS.

 

The past issues with Guardians were far more significant than the current "spikiness" rant people go on today. The fact of the matter is outside of extraordinary circumstances, any time you die as an Assassin is due to a mistake made on the part of the Assassin and/or his team.

 

Do you even *have* a Shadow? The "extraordinary circumstances" you're talking about are common enough during boss fights that they're *expected* during a number of fights. Those are "extraordinary". Those are "ordinary".

 

I seriously have to wonder how the hell you can *possibly* equate having 100 lower DPS, which equated to a 1% loss in total raid DPS, to a tank randomly dying thanks to spike damage, which often turns into a wipe or, at the very least, a lot of lost resources. I never saw a *single* tank that got picked because of the damage they dealt. I also never saw a single attempt that failed because the tank didn't do enough damage. Enrage timers are the *DPS*. Yes, *on occasion*, the fact that a tank was pulling a bit more DPS is going to make a difference, but that's like bringing up the occasions where Focused Defense kept the tank alive: they're so few and far between and demonstrative of a crapload of *other* things going wrong during the fight that it's not question of what value they did but rather how much *else* got screwed up. Focused Defense isn't an amazing tool, just like the extra 100 DPS that Shadows and VGs brought wasn't an amazing tool. The times that it matters are so marginal that it's not even something that has real bearing.

 

If you can't handle the main weakness of your class, then it's your fault.

 

If the "main weakness" of the Shadow is the need to be kept above 85% hp at all times or risk instantly dying for reasons outside of the tank's control, what's the "main weakness" of a Guardian or a VG? Right now, there *isn't* a "main weakness" of a Guardian and the only weakness of VGs is lacking a tank CD, which isn't really necessary for their success but rather for a desirable level of balance.

 

It's not a question of *whether* it's a weakness that can be worked around. It's a question of whether the *amount* of work that has to be gone into working around it is justified, in any sense of the term. Shadows, as a class, *don't* bring enough to the party to justify the amount of work they require and the risk they represent. The only reason they're still being brought along is because they're running with groups that they've always run with.

 

*Please*, show me an ops group that, when they lost one of their established tanks, *chose* a shadow tank to replace them. Just because they're being brought along *does not* mean that they're working fine. The fact that *so* many people apparently believe, as you do, that's it's a problem entirely on the players' end is simply emblematic of the sheer level of obtuse idiocy that exists on the other side of the aisle. You use anecdotes and flawed logic to justify a desire to maintain a status quo that has been *repeatedly* demonstrated to be fundamentally imbalanced while *ignoring* the actual evidence because it doesn't jive with your own worldview.

 

I haven't seen a single person that has been convinced that Shadows are fine without already believing so. Of course, I haven't seen a single person that looks at and understands the actual evidence without attempting to twist it around to justify their own opinions that hasn't been convinced that there's something wrong with Shadows.

[Leafy_Bug]

It should be noted that Guardian nerfs are quite logical in the current state of the game. Threat should not be nerfed that is fine, heck, I would ask for a buff in that regard because it seems they still do not have enough in the first 3-4 gcds. Shadows are still on top and this could also be because our high threat generators cost way less compared to guardians.

 

 

From a mitigation point of view, they are simply too good. We have a guild on TOFN who used to run with a shadow tank and was amongst the very first to down EC NiM. They did it with a shadow tank because that is what they had. After putting on farm TFB HM and SV HM they realised to stay on top they needed to change the tank they were using. So in parallel with farming the above, they levelled a guardian tank and a vanguard. TFB NiM came out and they were amongst the first to get the 'from beyond title'. They have TFB NiM and SV NiM 8 man on farm pretty much and when I played with one of their sentinels I was quite shocked to see him 2 -3 parts off BIS 75.

 

 

I asked these guys for feedback as to what composition they are using and they said they are using a Guardian / Vanguard tank setup. Shadow tanks are not a tank they would go too now and their healers are one of the best. They are aware 8man NiM is doable with a shadow tank they simply do not want to waste time on content that can be done very easy with a guardian and vanguard.