Guardian DPS: Power or Crit. Also: Focus Vs. Vig

[BobTheTeepo]

Focus is easier to get into as far as PvP, more people use the build (and thus it's easier to find a good build for), but that doesn't necessarily mean that it's better than Vig. The thing about Vig is that it has very steady DPS with some pretty hard hitters, I must admit Plasma brand is a bit underwhelming, but it's still worth getting and hitting people -- especially tanks -- with.

 

Overall, I'd say Vig can be up with Focus, but it takes a lot more practice and experience, I can't comment on which one has more potential or not, but one thing worth noting is that you can use Soresu with Focus relatively easily, whereas it's hard to generate focus with Vig so you pretty much need to use Shii-Cho.

 

My Vig spec: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#500cMZIMrRMhddMRZG.1

 

A couple of notes:

 

Narrowed Focus really isn't worth it, it only helps when you're getting hit by AOE which really never happens in a 1v1 -- even if it does, it's only 1 focus. In Shien form (the only time it can activate) you're not going to need the 1 focus. Generating focus is super easy with Shien, even for the high Focus demand of Vig.

 

Zen Strike is okay, but it's a 30% chance. You may think in your mind "This must mean that using Plasma Brand AND Overhead Slash will pretty much always make it finish cooldown." but anyone who knows at least the basics of how statistics work will tell you otherwise. Besides, Master Strike isn't exactly reliable, IF your opponent holds still you can count on some solid Focus free DPS, but that is a VERY huge if.

 

Overall a quick rundown of the two from my perspective would be as such:

 

Focus

 

1. Greater party utility (Force Exhaustion for example, slowing your target is amazing for Huttball and helpful in all other areas).
   
2. Greater burst damage (Force Sweep)
   
3. Easier to use Soresu with (Less Focus Intensive)
   

 

Vigilance

 

1. Greater personal utility (Unremitting is AMAZING in PvP)
   
2. Greater sustained damage (Plasma Brand which does Elemental so it can penetrate armor, Overhead Slash, Blade Storm Crit, each also having minor burn effects with my build)
   

 

 

I'm certainly not an expert, and while I'd say Vigilance is harder to get into than Focus for PvP, it can be extremely rewarding if you can manage it.

Edited January 14, 2012 by BobTheTeepo

[Aethaer]

I say that Vig is more PVE and Focus is PVP specifically because there last ability, which gives clues as to what Bioware intended them to be. This doesn't mean they can't be used for the latter.

 

I personally believe in the player behind the character.

 

When Bioware gives us damage meters I'm putting my money on VIG being the higher dps output for PVE

[Angof]

Level 50 now, well have been for awhile, and I have finally amassed a decent PvP and PvE gear setup. Playing as Vig tree in both I feel like I do fairly well, criting reliably (note this means I see these numbers on a normal basis and exclude outliers) for 2k-3.5k damage (depending on the ability I use and what I'm fighting) on both players and mobs. My stats are roughly:

 

Stat | PvE | PvP

Str | ~1500 | ~1430

crit% melee | ~30% | ~25%

crit% force | ~35% | ~30%

surge | ~80% | ~69%

bonus damage | ~380 | ~350

expertise | 0% | ~6.3%

 

I can't remember my power stat, but it must be around 300-400 based on the stats I listed.

 

I believe these stats are after a reuable power adrenal, but I didnt remember to check if it was on or not while looking at my stats last night.

 

Something I've noticed is that the individual ticks of DoT effects from vig can crit and they seem pretty in line with my crit chance. Also the listed crit chance is before any external buffs (lucky shots or consular buff). This means with buffs I have basically a 100% crit chance for Dispatch and Blade Storm after the 60% buff from using Overhead Slash/Plasma brand.

 

 

What a lot of people don't realize about crit chance is it seems additive before diminishing returns. This means that you get crit from str, crit chance, base chance, and external buffs and they are all added together after each one is independently calculated for diminishing returns. That said it seems entirely possible to get to or above 40% if you wanted. Personally I would argue against pushing melee crit chance above 33% though.

 

Someone earlier said Vig should go power, but I personally disagree for a number of reasons. One is because you cant translate all crit and surge directly into power and even if you transfered a large chunk of it, say 300 stat points, you still end up with only ~60 bonus damage. This 60 damage added onto 1500 damage seems inferior to making that 1500 damage crit for ~2700. In fact it would take approximately 20 non crit attacks to make up for that single crit. Even if we assume 300 crit rating only made a difference in 1 crit every 10 attacks, we can still see how ~1200 damage outweighs ~600 damage.

 

Furthermore, it is obvious that the 60 bonus damage does not add on per tick and rather it adds on to the total damage over time effect. If we assume each tick does 60 non crit damage and that only one more crits in the entire duration due to crit chance, it will deal 48 extra damage. So crit seems slightly lower for dot damage, but only by ~12 damage each time a dot is applied.

 

~1248 > ~660 damage. Crit just seems more reliable in terms of total damage at end game for vig.

 

Yes I know I failed to mention that if there are 2 or 3 crits that both hit the damage gap closes a bit more for power. But lets face it, 48 more damage (which is the extra 80% of 60 for crit assuming you have the surge for it) over 2-3 instances where both sides crit still doesn't close the gap between 660 and 1248.

 

Another note: Crit attacks seem to not be able to be shielded and in fact it has been stated that the priority is crit > shield > normal hit. Meaning Player A with a 60% crit chance vs Player B with a 50% shield chance would mean Player B's sheild chance would be lowered to 40%, but there wouldn't be any attacks made by PLayer A that were not crited or shielded in the fight.

Edited January 17, 2012 by Angof

[TheCy]

I PvP as Vig, and its pretty amazing. I haven't tried focus, but I'm not sure how much better it can be.

 

Once you get to 50, I've found it can be useful to use half enhancements with accuracy and power, and half with crit/surge I run around with like 103% accuracy, 25% crit, 280ish bonus damage, and I forget how much crit multiplier. I'm not in full pvp gear though, only a few pieces. The rest of my armor is crafted epics and oranges. No fancy raid gear for me.

 

On my server I typically top the medal charts, pull anywhere from 100-250k damage if I get heals. If I get a pocket healer I can do almost 300k damage. My kills per match range anywhere from 10-40+ depending on how geared Empire is and how much my team sucks.

 

I can still get the 50k guard medal, as well as the 10k in a single life. I can get the 2.5k per hit medal and typically have crits upwards of 3.5 in both pvp and pve.

 

In PvE I'm pretty much a God if I use doc, unless I do something stupid. Things die fairly fast across the board. The damage output compare to defense spec with tank gear makes it so that I end fights at about the same amount of life.

[maciejmh]

Consider yourself lucky.

 

I have top notch gear available for my level and gold elites kill me 9/10 attempts, the 10th attempt is when i win, its safe to say that i have a huge repair bill everytime i face bonus quest elites.

 

I just think they need to tone down strongs and elites that are in non-heroic quests, but thats just my opinion.

 

had the same on lvl ~35-44 then I started being a truck like someone said.

With the doc on my back I kill elites sometimes being full on hp - I dont change my companion equipment very often

 

Killing 50lvl (on lvl 43), 2:0 and ganking 49 (on lvl 44) - 5:0 wasnt hard ;p

[Drewscifer]

From my point of view, it seems like Crit is more useful when you're attacking more often, like with Channeled abilities like Force Stasis, Master Strike, Force Exhaustion, or spamming strike and slash, you're attacking quickly and often (rogue in Wow, Lilith in Borderlands).

 

While when you're performing these big one hits with a long cooldown you're more likely to want power and increasing the per hit damage, rather then betting that your big hit MIGHT crit.

 

*******Disclaimer**************

Just hit 50 with a trooper so not entirely familiar with end of game gear and how high you can stack crit.

 

*******End Disclaimer**********

[DeviantewoK]

good helpful info, thanks all!

[CapuchinSeven]

So for Vigilance, Power and Strength over Crit rating? Noted.

 

Stack crit to around 25% chance, then stack power as much as you can. People who say "power" are short changing the answer, although you gain crit from strength as well. You'll be more disruptive with 380 power and 30% crit than 400 power and 10% crit, even more so in Vig because your DOTs can crit and once you have all three DOTs running, with Plasma Brand first, that's when they can sting, when they are all critting.

Edited April 2, 2012 by CapuchinSeven

[Dee-Jay]

Stack crit to around 25% chance, then stack power as much as you can. People who say "power" are short changing the answer, although you gain crit from strength as well. You'll be more disruptive with 380 power and 30% crit than 400 power and 10% crit, even more so in Vig because your DOTs can crit and once you have all three DOTs running, with Plasma Brand first, that's when they can sting, when they are all critting.

 

Your comparison is moot. You can't have that little Crit, unless you run around naked.

 

The difference between someone favoring Crit over Power might be 5-7%. Not much more.

 

The difference between somebody focusing on Power over Crit might be roughly ~100 Bonus damage.

 

Now in PvP I could get behind an argument favoring Crit because burst kills more reliably.

 

But from a pure DPS point-of-view, nothing tops Power (not even Strength).

[CapuchinSeven]

Your comparison is moot. You can't have that little Crit, unless you run around naked.

 

The difference between someone favoring Crit over Power might be 5-7%. Not much more.

 

The difference between somebody focusing on Power over Crit might be roughly ~100 Bonus damage.

 

I don't understand why you feel the need to argue the point but not actually say anything that really changes the fact. Stack power but make sure you have a fair amount of crit, nothing you've said changes that, nothing you've said actually disagrees with it and I don't disagree with you about power.

 

Now in PvP I could get behind an argument favoring Crit because burst kills more reliably.

 

Vigilance DOTs also crit and critting with them often is the difference between doing 200 damage in a single application and 360+ damage in a single application, and in no way equal burst and will add to your overall PVE damage.

 

Those saying that crit is important are not disagreeing that power is your main stacking stat (if I didn't agree I wouldn't be using Smuggler mods in my Battlemaster), but that totally ignoring crit in a fanatical quest for more power won't do you any favours.

 

Your comparison is moot. You can't have that little Crit, unless you run around naked.

 

Simple phone typo.

Edited April 2, 2012 by CapuchinSeven

[VoidJustice]

If you go Vigilance stack power. If you go Focus stack critical. Focus has critical chance modifiers and additional critical damage.

 

wha.....

 

Im going to assume you meant that reversed. Focus derives all it's damage from forced force crits, so you stack power. Vigilance derives it's power from the fact that you one beefy muscle bound Jedi dood... you need crit for your white damage.

 

When you start hitting consistent 4k overheads you'll be glad you have your crit around 30% or more.

 

Power is awesome and all... It's just as Focus you need 0 crit. As Vigilance you MUST get to 30+ crit percentage minimum. Focus gets more auto crit. Even our autocrit "bladestorm" has a chance to fail unless you stack crit.

 

Guys, no offence but Vigilance is for Pro's please don't take Vigilance advice from Focus Guardians.

Edited April 2, 2012 by VoidJustice

[RahlLegacy]

What is the priority system, also, do you have any (mainly PvE) spec you could recommend for leveling a Focus Guardian? Been rolling Vigilance up to level 33 and I feel like I'd like to try Focus now that I've gotten comfortable with the Guardian as a whole.

 

If you can be patient, then I would wait until you can get force exhaustion to re-specc Focus. Not that you wont still do well but you will have more fun. Or atleast if you do spec focus at 33 just realize that its not going to have its ducks all in a row yet.

[fuzzDONTEVENTRIP]

Focus : power > surge > crit

 

-fuzz

[zenblend]

I forget who the player was--someone got on the Focus PvP train very early--but they made a PvP instruction vid on gearing and specing for Focus in PvP. This was before it got nerfed a bit and was doing like 10K crits on sweep. But stat wise, the same remains true - for Focus, where your entire rotation is based around the crit buff (from leap), singularity charges, and sweep - Power is your primary stat and Crit should never be prioritized over it.

 

The harder your sweep hits, the more effective the Focus spec is. POWAH

[fuzzDONTEVENTRIP]

I forget who the player was--someone got on the Focus PvP train very early--but they made a PvP instruction vid on gearing and specing for Focus in PvP. This was before it got nerfed a bit and was doing like 10K crits on sweep. But stat wise, the same remains true - for Focus, where your entire rotation is based around the crit buff (from leap), singularity charges, and sweep - Power is your primary stat and Crit should never be prioritized over it.

 

The harder your sweep hits, the more effective the Focus spec is. POWAH

 

Luciela

 

-fuzz

[lordkhouri]

If you go focus DO NOT stack crit. Your big hit is an automatic crit, so more crit doesn't matter. Stack Power/surge. If you're remodding your champ/BM gear, you can find power/surge mods in scoundrel gloves. Not sure where else but those should be your focus.

 

With proper mods, your sweeps will crit for 5-6k regularly.

[Dooger]

I don't understand why you feel the need to argue the point but not actually say anything that really changes the fact..

 

omg, your every post is this ROFLMAO

 

everything is fine, nothing could ever be improved, and then you make up some extreme nobody mentioned as your proof, followed up with how great you are.

 

Chocolate milk drink kids and shills have made these forums useless.

[Valant]

Focus: STR, Power/Surge, then Crit

 

Vigilance: STR, Crit, then Power. its a good idea to get as much crit as possible when running in Vigilance.

[CapuchinSeven]

omg, your every post is this ROFLMAO

 

everything is fine, nothing could ever be improved, and then you make up some extreme nobody mentioned as your proof, followed up with how great you are.

 

Chocolate milk drink kids and shills have made these forums useless.

 

Oh no, mean internet words! You put so much effort into that I almost feel bad for not feeling insulted. I'll be sure to pull a worried face for you when the consensus of the thread isn't critical till 25%, then power in a Vigilance build.

 

followed up with how great you are.

 

It's almost like, you want to somehow make me feel bad for not sucking to somehow justify your lack of ability with the class and consolidate your sucking. I have no idea what makes you even think you're capable of denting an ego as big as mine.

 

If everyone else in the thread is really lucky, your post and this reply will be deleted and they can go back to talking about how critical is more important for Vigilance than Focus.

Edited April 3, 2012 by CapuchinSeven

[ShephardJohn]

so if i go vigilance spec

 

i should focus on crit?

 

what gear should i focus on? weaponmaster?

[CapuchinSeven]

so if i go vigilance spec

 

i should focus on crit?

 

Not so much focus on it, just make sure you're pulling at least 25% chance to crit and then stack power but don't drop crit much below that for the sake of power. Even in PVE crit helps your DOTs crit.

 

"Power" is only half the answer, but stacking nothing but crit wouldn't help either.

 

what gear should i focus on? weaponmaster?

 

I can't really comment right now on PVE gear but PVP gear is changed a lot in 1.2. DPS gear should be your aim though.

 

Also, I just got your name.

Edited April 4, 2012 by CapuchinSeven

[Dooger]

If everyone else in the thread is really lucky, your post and this reply will be deleted and they can go back to talking about how critical is more important for Vigilance than Focus.

 

possibly, most of your chocolate milk induced posts get cut.

[CapuchinSeven]

possibly, most of your chocolate milk induced posts get cut.

 

Well that masterful reply was worth opening the thread for.

What's next? "No no your post wasn't worth opening more!"

 

Crit till 25%, then power when you're going Vigilance, you can easily sit around 390+ power and 25% crit in end game gear with mod swaps, more if you pre made with a Smuggler and Sage. If he disagrees with that, he's wrong. Simple as that. Your posts haven't actually changed that fact, pretty much like his.

Edited April 4, 2012 by CapuchinSeven

[britane]

so if i go vigilance spec

 

i should focus on crit?

 

what gear should i focus on? weaponmaster?

 

you want weaponsmaster implants and ear, but vindicator armor. the weaponsmaster armor is medium, for sents.

[Mormoz]

100% disagree. You (and many others) sound like you have never even loooked at Vig before.

 

Vigilance is awesome in PvP. Unremitting is one of the best PVP talents a Guardian can get and there are several other PVP oriented talents within the tree. Claiming that Vigilance is "the PvE" tree is the biggest misnomer on these boards. I run Vig in PvP and out-damage every other Guardian/Jugg in the match. I also 1v1 like a boss. You guys can have the Focus tree, lol.

 

Vigilance is fantastic in skilled hands, no doubt about that. But no matter how skilled you are there is no way a Vigilance could pull off what a Focus can. Recently I've been in a Voidstar match. There was a Focus Guardian, fully equipped. His Sweep was hitting for 4k+ damage (and thats an aoe). At the end of the match his total damage was 525k, his biggest hit 6.5k. I have no pictures of this, so you're just going to have to take my word for it. I have no reason to be spewing lies on the forums anyways.

His damage would've been way higher if our entire team didn't focus on taking him out asap, and if we didn't have some very skilled healers our entire team would've been obliterated by that one Guardian.

 

While I've seen many amazing Vigilance Guardians, I have never seen anyone able to pull this, or something similiar, off. Where Vigilance is amazing, Focus is divine. (In PvP atleast).

Edited April 4, 2012 by Mormoz