Bolster.. why are some so threatened by it?

[cashogy_reborn]

bolster is annoying b/c it devalues PvP gear.

 

its premise is fantastic; giving everyone a fair shot in warzones regardless of gear progression level.

 

its implementation is terrible, as some PvE gear is actually on par/better than PvP gear.

 

i think that is why most people do not like it.

[Zoom_VI]

Honestly, for most I really do not think it has much to do with the fact pvers are able to remain "competitive" without the use of PvP gear, I think what bothers most is how pvpers are unable to share the same benefit. With WH and EWH back in the day one was able to still none NiM content in their pvp gear, however now if you try to run current tier raids in full pvp it may not work out so well, since they did not scale up the mods much for pvp in 2.0.

 

Equal treatment would be nice, I think that is why a lot of people are upset.

 

Idk what people mean by "can run any raids in PvP gear" either they suck at min/maxing or suck at raid mechanics. My vanguard has successfully tanked HM S&V in my PvP gear (I don't bother making separate pve sets) which is second only to the two new NiM (which are practically sucided for anything not in full 72s and even then are crazy difficult)

[rlamela]

Have you completed any of the HM or NM mode Ops yet? I use to think PvE was boring. I love PvP. But after 2.0 I've spent more time PvEing than PvPing, and I've found the higher end difficulty very enjoyable. I hadnt even completed a OPs until after 2.0. I only did 3 or 4 HM Flashpoints before 2.0 and I've been playing since release.

 

Am I saying that PvE is better than PvP....hell no, but not only will it NOT kill you to do PvE 1 or 2 nights a week but you might enjoy the break for the repetitive WZ grind. I know after a year of doing the same 5 wz's its been nice to take a break and see what else this game has to offer

 

yes i have done endgame pve, it is boring. And I would rather quit then have to do it once or twice a week. There is nothing fun about running the same ops/flashpoints over and over. I'm sorry but giving a boss more health and have them hit harder doesn't make it more fun. If games are going to make different difficulty versions of dungeons then they need to make Boss's have 10 or more different skill sets that are randomly selected when you spawn the boss on screen. Otherwise after the 2nd time you run a dungeon it is boring. Endgame PVE is basically just a gear check.

 

The Bastion

Rellik - Jenna'syyde - Crackroxx

Edited July 18, 2013 by rlamela

[Gren-Aluren]

Bolster is garbage. There is no reason to wear a full set. You get advantage wearing a couple pieces of PvE gear.

 

 

Shoot I'd honestly be all for giving a PvP'er a PvE bolster once BW gets rid of the WZ comms farming and just has a random piece of gear drop at the end of each warzone which can be rolled on by all members of the winning party (you get nothing if you lose just like a wipe for PvE'ers). You can only win 12 regular warzones (equal to the 5 TfB and 7 S&V bosses on SM) and 12 ranked warzones (equal to the 5 TfB and 7 S&V bosses on HM/NiM) per week and then your locked out until next week! Sounds like a great way to even out the no bolster for PvP'ers in raids and the bolstering for PvE players in warzones. Plus it would add a little bit more enjoyment to the game if it took longer than a weekend for me to min/max a set of partisan gear. A PvE raid can carry 1-2 undergeared people unlike a PvP warzone where those same 1-2 people hurt the team and then get demonized as bads with garbage gear. I PvP daily on multiple toons (lowbie to 55) and PvE raid religiously on 1 toon 3 days a week so feel free to flame me all you want.

 

I certainly hope you mean locked out from receiving a drop. Otherwise allowing only 12 wz a week is the worst idea I've ever heard. PvP would die because nobody would be able to queue after a certain point.

Edited July 18, 2013 by Gren-Aluren

[kweassa]

bolster is annoying b/c it devalues PvP gear.

 

its premise is fantastic; giving everyone a fair shot in warzones regardless of gear progression level.

 

its implementation is terrible, as some PvE gear is actually on par/better than PvP gear.

 

i think that is why most people do not like it.

 

1. Bolster does not devalue anything.

 

2. Its premise is already a reality, and a successful one.

 

3. PvE bolstering isn't in any way better than PvP gear in any meaningful lengths.

 

People have this poor tendency to forget looking at the reality, stop thinking with facts, and just start following around any mob formed repeating the same lies and garbage spewed from malicious individuals hellbent on some crusade for reasons difficult to understand with a sane mind.

[Cretinus]

Good players are not good because of their gear. Bad players will always be bad, no matter how much Bioware tries to hold your hand and prop you up.

 

BS. Being good or bad is not in one's genes but a matter of practicing. Yesterday's bad players can indeed become tomorrow's good players, if they spend some time with PvPing. And that's exactly what bolster is about, it allows the more casual players to play WZs without being completely destroyed, meaning that they will play more WZs and become better.

 

The self entitled "good" players's problem is that they think that there's no fluctuation between good an bad. They believe that if they used to beat player X yesterday, they will be able to beat him for all times, cause he "is" bad and will remain bad forever.

Breaking news: Player X + bolster + some practice can become better than you and then it's he who's good and you who's bad.

Edited July 18, 2013 by Cretinus

[Gren-Aluren]

Put on a full set of PvP gear. Then switch out pieces of garbage gear or 72s (Like Gloves and belt) and you'll see that bolster will immediately boost you to the average expertise and give you better stats then if you wore a full set with the cap. I'm sorry but 2% bonus from expertise is not better then cheating the bolster system for a hundred or so more bonus healing or tech damage and a boost to your primary stat. I even still see players with a couple blue 50 mods in their PvP gear just to get a boost. It's even more ridiculous for classes that rely on secondary stats, like Tanks. They didn't fix it.

 

Full set should = BiS. But it doesn't.

Edited July 18, 2013 by Gren-Aluren

[Ashenti]

I've kept out of the bolster arguments, as I haven't really experienced the issues with it.

Until now...

 

how can upgrading my rifle and vibroknife from Partisan to conqueror lead me to dropping 45 expertise in WZ's??

[L-RANDLE]

1. Bolster does not devalue anything.

 

2. Its premise is already a reality, and a successful one.

 

3. PvE bolstering isn't in any way better than PvP gear in any meaningful lengths.

 

People have this poor tendency to forget looking at the reality, stop thinking with facts, and just start following around any mob formed repeating the same lies and garbage spewed from malicious individuals hellbent on some crusade for reasons difficult to understand with a sane mind.

 

Bolster devalues PvP gear progression.

The reality is people think bolster puts them on equal footing when it doesn't.

The gap between PvE bolster and PvP gear is nonexistent for all practical purposes.

 

If they had more viable outlet for time played, I could see your point, but.....

 

And yes time played should be rewarded because those types assure that server pops remain constant...

[Darkshadz]

Bolster devalues PvP gear progression.

 

That is simply not even remotely true.

[Floplag]

This is the biggest myth in all the bolster debates. I don't know any single person or guild on my server that used to be amazing but now suck because they lost their gear advantage. I also haven't seen any players that used to be sub-par become heroes due to bolster evening things out. The good players pre-2.0 are still the good players post-2.0.

 

Gearing up for PVP is not the months-long grind people make it out to be. It took maybe a week to get full war hero, and that was without dropping 10 hours a day into the game. Just average play. If you don't play PVP enough to even do that, no amount of bolster will ever make you competitive against people who do nothing but PVP day-in and day-out.

 

Good players are not good because of their gear. Bad players will always be bad, no matter how much Bioware tries to hold your hand and prop you up.

 

OK... simple question then... IF you are that good, and your gear still gives you a slight advantage.. why does Bolster even matter to you?

[Ottoattack]

The bolster is a half measure that is very poorly implemented. PvP needs to be either grind based or zero grind based meaning that in WZ you get specific set of stats regardless of your gear. The bolster is a half measure that achieves neither, not to mention it was, is and always will be riddled with exploits and bugs, because it is too complicated that even devs are not sure how it works, and the variables around it (gear types) are constantly changing.

 

It needs to be abolished in favor of an either specified stats system, where your gear does not play a role in WZs or a system which is grind based. The bolster currently is half measure poorly implemented and riddled with bugs that achieves nothing but making fun of devs for wasting an insane amount of resources to create something that is so fail.

Edited July 18, 2013 by Ottoattack

[Floplag]

Honestly, for most I really do not think it has much to do with the fact pvers are able to remain "competitive" without the use of PvP gear, I think what bothers most is how pvpers are unable to share the same benefit. With WH and EWH back in the day one was able to still none NiM content in their pvp gear, however now if you try to run current tier raids in full pvp it may not work out so well, since they did not scale up the mods much for pvp in 2.0.

 

Equal treatment would be nice, I think that is why a lot of people are upset.

 

perhaps true, but also rarely stated. I think there is validity to this in principle, however, most of the hardcore PvPers often lament even having to PvE as well so this message gets lost.

[AlrikFassbauer]

Why are some of you so terrified by this simple little thing whose entire goal is to give those with less time to farm comms a fighting chance?

 

 

To put it cynically :

 

Because Bolster puts back the SKILL into PvP again.

 

And this is what people fear : That SKILL of bolstered people (so to say) might actually matter again.

Edited July 18, 2013 by AlrikFassbauer

[Kawiki]

BS. Being good or bad is not in one's genes but a matter of practicing. Yesterday's bad players can indeed become tomorrow's good players, if they spend some time with PvPing. And that's exactly what bolster is about, it allows the more casual players to play WZs without being completely destroyed, meaning that they will play more WZs and become better.

 

The self entitled "good" players's problem is that they think that there's no fluctuation between good an bad. They believe that if they used to beat player X yesterday, they will be able to beat him for all times, cause he "is" bad and will remain bad forever.

Breaking news: Player X + bolster + some practice can become better than you and then it's he who's good and you who's bad.

 

Bolster is counter productive and extends the time of players becoming good. When you are out geared you learn quickly to work as and support a team. Bolster promotes bad tactics and causes many new players to overlook useful abilities they have that they probably don't use in PvE.

[L-RANDLE]

That is simply not even remotely true.

 

How so? Bolster inables you to forgo any PvP gear progression. If you can walk in and be 100% viable then getting PvP gear is pointless, less OW....

[Ottoattack]

perhaps true, but also rarely stated. I think there is validity to this in principle, however, most of the hardcore PvPers often lament even having to PvE as well so this message gets lost.

 

I consider myself someone who plays both aspect of the game and I don't and will never get 2 pieces of gear. Pr-expansion my toons where in EWH, which I used to PvP and PvE in, obviously more PvP cuz that's how you gear. After expansion, the PvP gear became complete garbage out side of WZs, thus I mostly PvE. The problem I have is that my main healer and dps toons are in 72s and wearing this gear in WZs puts you at a severe disadvantage compared to low level PvE gear (61s through 66), so I rarely PvP and never on my highly geared toons.

 

The gearing stats of the game right now just sucks. I always though the ideal environment is to remove all gaps between PvP and PvE environments so the player could roam between them with little to no barriers. At least pre expansion that was achievable with top PvP gear. Now...

Edited July 18, 2013 by Ottoattack

[Darkshadz]

How so? Bolster inables you to forgo any PvP gear progression. If you can walk in and be 100% viable then getting PvP gear is pointless, less OW....

 

Min/max partisan/conqueror gear > green gears. Bolster keeps you from getting 3 shotted if you have green gears but it doesn't kill PVP gear progression at all. You better farm your partisan/conqueror set and min/max it. Provided that you are good, you'll see that an equally skilled opponent but wearing PVE gears will not win against you. On what server are you?

[Technohic]

OK... simple question then... IF you are that good, and your gear still gives you a slight advantage.. why does Bolster even matter to you?

 

My answer probably is different than the person you are asking, and probably because bolster doesn't bother me THAT much, but; what I don't like about it is I am working to gear up. Save to get a Partisan piece and pull its mods out, put it in my already augmented orange gear and when I Q, I go to see what I got only to find I gained a few points of health and a handfull in other stats. 1500 comms and I get some scraps. It just doesn't encourage me to keep repeating the same WZs over and over.

 

Multiply that by several pieces for just the base partisan, which is maybe slightly less effective than some PvE or crated gear (can't remember which one is between partisan and Conq gear right now) and my motivation decreases. Then figure in the work for the Conq gear being much longer than the partisan or optimizig stats which are terrible for the standard set and it just puts me off.

 

Then; we will have new PvP gear in a couple months. Brings up a lot of questions on what happens to the old after what happened to WH, EWH, BM and recruit. Not to mention, I feel like they will go through the cycle of tweaking bolster all over again, and get things wrong all over again, and it just is not appealing.

 

I'm all for the even playing field but if they are going to do it the bolster way, they need to adopt more of a KISS concept to it. Just baseline stats all get unless wearing the latest PvP gear, which will be higher than those base stats. For whatever reason though; they keep tweaking and keeping it a mystery and confusing.

Edited July 18, 2013 by Technohic

[dcgregorya]

1500 comms and I get some scraps. It just doesn't encourage me to keep repeating the same WZs over and over.

 

Then stop PVP'ing. I don't want people who are there for the comms on my team. They're almost always bad. PVE -> that way.

 

I want people who are there for the sport. I don't even notice I have comms until I start getting the 'you're almost full' message.

 

Fun and victory are the incentives. If that's not good enough then you shouldn't be playing PVP - you're hurting your team.

Edited July 18, 2013 by dcgregorya

[Technohic]

Then stop PVP'ing. I don't want people who are there for the comms on my team. They're almost always bad. PVE -> that way.

 

I want people who are there for the sport. I don't even notice I have comms until I start getting the 'you're almost full' message.

 

Do you even know what an MMOs driving factor is on why they last several years as opposed to games like Halo that have to have a new one every year? Hell. Even FPS like Planetside understand progression and have it.

 

At any rate. Just ignore people giving honest opinions and just label them however you see fit. Sure that will go a long way in being a good teammate in this game.

Edited July 18, 2013 by Technohic

[L-RANDLE]

Min/max partisan/conqueror gear > green gears. Bolster keeps you from getting 3 shotted if you have green gears but it doesn't kill PVP gear progression at all. You better farm your partisan/conqueror set and min/max it. Provided that you are good, you'll see that an equally skilled opponent but wearing PVE gears will not win against you. On what server are you?

 

You just validated my point... You cant even talk about a meaningful difference unless its min/max conq over greens... What about everything else in between? Again the reason greens are not competitive is because they are rarely if ever augmented. If you compare apples to apples, the difference is so moot that spending serious time to min/max is a fools errand...

 

I'm on PoT, and there is/was virtually no difference in my old WH/EWH bolstered than my Conq gear now. I could have stopped at the relics, even with the slight nerf on crafted purples...

[Ghost_Spectre]

How so? Bolster inables you to forgo any PvP gear progression. If you can walk in and be 100% viable then getting PvP gear is pointless, less OW....

 

Let me ask you this Randle, if a PvE player who knows their class in and out, wants to PvP but does not want to grind for PvP gear because they are fully outfitted in the best PvE endgame gear one can obtain, why should they?

 

If they do not want to carry to sets of gear, how does this stop the PvPer from gear progression? It does not. Bolster allows the casual PvP and the PvE players to participate in PvP without being a PvP target of opportunity (read: farmer’s dream target).

 

I know there are a number of PvPers who do not want PvE endgame gear; however, they still participate in PvE endgame content. A few of them have posted in this thread stating so. If Bolster is a tool to level the warzones so that any and all who want to participate regardless of gear, how is that a bad thing? Does it not increase the player pool for the warzone experience? Is that not a good thing for PvP? Would you advocate, as many of those anti-bolster players, the complete removal of Bolster or increase the gear imbalance to something akin that Recruit wearing players had when facing a BiS EWH wearing player? This is what these ‘l33t Professionals PvPers’ are advocating. How is that a good and healthy thing for SWTOR PvP? Answer: It. Is. Not.

 

So far Kwessa is the voice of reason concerning Bolster and PvP. However, with the exception of a few, many have ignored what he/she has said. I agree 100% with their assessment concerning this topic. Furthermore, if people would learn to adapt and look at the positives Bolster brings to this game’s PvP in playability and allowing more people to play and be competitive instead of focusing on exploits, gear, and whatever else they want to come up with to QQ about, they may find what PvP has become is a far better experience than what it was for everyone prior to 2.0. Bolster is here to stay. People need to accept it and adapt, or go look for greener pastures.

[Ghost_Spectre]

It is unimportant whether that is true or not -- the only important fact is that the performance difference was THAT MUCH high, almost unbearable to some, even, to many people. Bolster succeeded in remedying the situation, and the only remaining complaints are coming from just a handful of people who don't like the fact that they don't like how some people get to use PvE gear. Heck, it's not even a performance complaint, or an OP complaint. It's about jealousy.

 

Bolster worked.

 

It has EVERYTHING to do with levelling the playing field, as explained above.

 

Sometimes, we PvPers have this nasty habit of thinking that because we're more proficient and knowledgeable about PvP, our opinions matter more, and our preferences should be the only thing to be catered to. I suggest you get out of it.

 

Way back, when it was living hell to enter lv50 bracket for the first time, the amount of complaints concerning the difficulty of gearing, and the miserable PvP experience would fill up the forums everyday. Compared to that, nowadays the only relevant complains are about bolster, and relatively few at that, and even those complaints don't really make it clear what they are complaining about.

 

That's a sign that whether we PvPers like it or not, something went to the right direction, and something is working.

 

The playing fielf has never been so even. Compare it from the very start of this game, and we're at a point where the gear-progression element and the equality of performance element is at a reasonable balance for the first time... and they didn't even need to just kill all gear and forcibly equalize everyone to exact same stats, like how games like GW2 does it.

 

So far you are the voice of reason concerning Bolster and PvP. However, with the exception of a few, many have ignored what you are saying. I agree 100% with their assessment concerning this topic. Too bad most are tone deaf to what you are saying.

[Jadescythe]

Let me ask you this Randle, if a PvE player who knows their class in and out, wants to PvP but does not want to grind for PvP gear because they are fully outfitted in the best PvE endgame gear one can obtain, why should they?

 

If they do not want to carry to sets of gear, how does this stop the PvPer from gear progression? It does not. Bolster allows the casual PvP and the PvE players to participate in PvP without being a PvP target of opportunity (read: farmer’s dream target).

 

I know there are a number of PvPers who do not want PvE endgame gear; however, they still participate in PvE endgame content. A few of them have posted in this thread stating so. If Bolster is a tool to level the warzones so that any and all who want to participate regardless of gear, how is that a bad thing? Does it not increase the player pool for the warzone experience? Is that not a good thing for PvP? Would you advocate, as many of those anti-bolster players, the complete removal of Bolster or increase the gear imbalance to something akin that Recruit wearing players had when facing a BiS EWH wearing player? This is what these ‘l33t Professionals PvPers’ are advocating. How is that a good and healthy thing for SWTOR PvP? Answer: It. Is. Not.

 

So far Kwessa is the voice of reason concerning Bolster and PvP. However, with the exception of a few, many have ignored what he/she has said. I agree 100% with their assessment concerning this topic. Furthermore, if people would learn to adapt and look at the positives Bolster brings to this game’s PvP in playability and allowing more people to play and be competitive instead of focusing on exploits, gear, and whatever else they want to come up with to QQ about, they may find what PvP has become is a far better experience than what it was for everyone prior to 2.0. Bolster is here to stay. People need to accept it and adapt, or go look for greener pastures.

 

The idea of bolster isn't an issue. The implementation is.

 

The theory was to make all gear<partisan<conqueror, but close enough that anyone could be viable to get through reg warzones. Because bolster was half-assed, it didn't happen that way. There are STILL issues with bolster not working that way. So we'll QQ about PvE gear ruining PvP gear progression the same way PvErs QQed about PvP gear ruining PvE progression if we want.