Karpyshyn's Surik vs Avellone's Exile.

[Beniboybling]

They had to get through a swamp which took a long time to trudge through, to get there beforehand, they were all feeling the effects before they reached the Dark Force Temple, Ben even states that he doesn't think he can be any use for them on this mission(not like he ever is, but any way).

 

And Yoda doesn't even go to the Dark Force Temple, he simply travels around the planet and finds it difficult to use the Force properly whilst on it and decides it would be best to leave.

 

Also, there are many great lightsaber duellists that were weak in Force prowess, HoT does not at all need to rely on the Force to battle the Emperor, which by the way, his lightsaber was the only thing he used in all cutscenes.

 

Regardless I maintain that Meetra's near death experience at Nathema and the power of Dromund Kaas which we have seen effect many Jedi detrimentally indeed diminished her ability to call on the Force.

 

This is the only explanation for how the Exile could go from defeating two very powerful Darths and their host, whilst in one of the most powerful Dark Side nexus ever seen to struggling with Imperial Guard and getting defeated easily with Scourge's help against Nyriss whom herself was defeated easily by Revan.

 

You may disagree with my assessment but many here concur with it.

Great lightsaber duelists lacking in Force prowess? I can't think of any?

 

Anyway I can imagine that the dark side nexus that is the Dark Force Temple encompasses the swamp it resides in (its said to be surrounded by a bog so I assume this is what they trudged through.) I can't comment on Yoda as we don't really have any idea of exactly where he went on the planet.

 

Really, I can't see a minor dark side nexus having much effect on Meetra, when the dark side nexus of Malachor V and in particular the Trayus Academy didn't seem to have an impact. Like you said its a powerful dark side nexus.

 

If anything she would have been in the same position. And I can't see how being a wound in the Force would protect her from that. Maybe it did have an effect, but it can't have been too significant.

 

P.S. Though it should be noted that Meetra defeated the Imperial Guard she fought, whom was being empowered by the Emperor. And Revan didn't have that much easier a fight. In fact I think Meetra was outnumbered.

[Aurbere]

Considering that Yoda's connection to the Light Side was diminished just when the Dark Side returned to the galaxy, I don't think it's too far-fetched that a planet strong in the Dark Side would have an adverse effect on Jedi, no matter where they are.

 

Then we have the fact that Dromund Kaas has weakened several very powerful Jedi post-Vitiate.

[Beniboybling]

Considering that Yoda's connection to the Light Side was diminished just when the Dark Side returned to the galaxy, I don't think it's too far-fetched that a planet strong in the Dark Side would have an adverse effect on Jedi, no matter where they are.

 

Then we have the fact that Dromund Kaas has weakened several very powerful Jedi post-Vitiate.

Hmmm, I think there are significant degrees however.

[Aurbere]

Hmmm, I think there are significant degrees however.

 

Of course, depends on where you are, but the entire planet is strong in the Dark Side.

 

Just stronger in different areas.

Edited July 11, 2013 by Aurbere

[LadyKulvax]

Beni, as I have said before, Malachor V's effect on any other Jedi was either death or an almost instant alignment change to the Dark Side, the Exile showed only illness in her second journey to the planet, she used Sever Force to protect herself from the effects and hence became a Wound in the Force, clearly this granted some form of immunity.

 

After Malachor V we see no signs at all of her Wound and she is recognised as a very normal force user by Scourge on multiple occasions, there is no mention of an absence of the Force in her at all, given her retraining was completed and that Kreia suggested her training and power would in a way fill in her Wound, healing it, then it would make sense that the Exile lost her Wound in the Force after Malachor V.

 

Many Jedi at many different sites and/or planets in the galaxy have shown that such places as Korriban, Dromund Kaas and others like Ziost make it hard to call upon the Light Side of the Force, in-fact Jedi Exar Kun couldn't call upon the force at all until he decided to call upon the Dark Side when trapped.

 

Simply put it would make sense of her very poor performance on Dromund Kaas as opposed to her performance on Malachor V.

[Beniboybling]

Beni, as I have said before, Malachor V's effect on any other Jedi was either death or an almost instant alignment change to the Dark Side, the Exile showed only illness in her second journey to the planet, she used Sever Force to protect herself from the effects and hence became a Wound in the Force, clearly this granted some form of immunity.

 

After Malachor V we see no signs at all of her Wound and she is recognised as a very normal force user by Scourge on multiple occasions, there is no mention of an absence of the Force in her at all, given her retraining was completed and that Kreia suggested her training and power would in a way fill in her Wound, healing it, then it would make sense that the Exile lost her Wound in the Force after Malachor V.

 

Many Jedi at many different sites and/or planets in the galaxy have shown that such places as Korriban, Dromund Kaas and others like Ziost make it hard to call upon the Light Side of the Force, in-fact Jedi Exar Kun couldn't call upon the force at all until he decided to call upon the Dark Side when trapped.

 

Simply put it would make sense of her very poor performance on Dromund Kaas as opposed to her performance on Malachor V.

Meetra severed herself from the Force because of the massive Force echoes caused by the activation of the MSG, it had nothing to do with the dark side energies resonating from the planet which were present beforehand... so no it would not grant her any form of immunity from the dark side effects.

 

Though yes I'd agree that the wound in her probably closed, but that only meant she wasn't able to siphon the energies of others, I'm not sure if that would have led to a dramatic drop in her ability, perhaps. But still any dark side nexuses present on Dromund Kaas would have no more, if not less, effect on her - that can't be the reason.

 

P.S. Exar Kun was forcibly surrounded in dark side energies by Freedon Nadd if I recall correctly.

[LadyKulvax]

She for no reason was only ill when all other Jedi including Revan either died or turned, that simply does not make sense and her absence in the Force makes perfect sense of the difference.

 

Oh and regardless the point is not changed, Freedon Nadd can do whatever he likes, but the Dark Side still clouded his ability to use the force, just as the Rend in the Dark Side and the shift in the balance caused the Jedi to lose their true abilities in the Force.

 

We have a large pile of cases where Jedi have found it difficult or outright impossible to call upon the Force, except for the Dark Side when in Dark Side corrupted places.

[Beniboybling]

She for no reason was only ill when all other Jedi including Revan either died or turned, that simply does not make sense and her absence in the Force makes perfect sense of the difference.

 

Oh and regardless the point is not changed, Freedon Nadd can do whatever he likes, but the Dark Side still clouded his ability to use the force, just as the Rend in the Dark Side and the shift in the balance caused the Jedi to lose their true abilities in the Force.

 

We have a large pile of cases where Jedi have found it difficult or outright impossible to call upon the Force, except for the Dark Side when in Dark Side corrupted places.

OK, you make a good point there. I suppose, theoretically, given that Meetra is basically blank spot in the Force, the Force does not affect her. So the dark side energies kind just, move around her, metaphorically speaking.

 

But anyway let me make it clear that I completely concur that the powerful dark side nexuses limit a light siders connection to the Force, what I'm disputing here is that Darth Nyriss' stronghold was such a nexus. There certainly was a dark side presence, but powerful enough to have a significant effect on her? I would have though Drew would have made note of it.

 

I think that when the wound in Meetra closed, all those bonds she had formed broke and all the energy she had siphoned dissipated. She could no longer feed on the Force and on her companions.

[LadyKulvax]

Except other Jedi have gone to Dromund Kaas specifically, Yoda himself never finds some bog or swamp, he never finds a Temple he just travels around the planet, he realises quite quickly that his ability to use the force their was very diminished and leaves when he realises this planet was within the bounds of the old Dith empire

 

I should also note when the Jedi later on went there, it took them an entire night to get through the bog once they spotted the Dark Force Temple far off in the distance and they didn't even get to the swamp before they had felt the effects, Ben lost his ability to command the Force almost completely, Jaina had a migraine and had difficulty even sensing her surroundings and in Katarn's case by the time he'd got in the temple he'd been corrupted by the dark side energies he'd spent almost a day in.

 

I am not sure your theory on proximity to Dark Side nexi is as... limited as you think it is, it sounds to me like such effects can reach for miles and miles around.

Edited July 11, 2013 by LadyKulvax

[Beniboybling]

Except other Jedi have gone to Dromund Kaas specifically, Yoda himself never finds some bog or swamp, he never finds a Temple he just travels around the planet, he realises quite quickly that his ability to use the force their was very diminished and leaves when he realises this planet was within the bounds of the old Dith empire

 

I should also note when the Jedi later on went there, it took them an entire night to get through the bog once they spotted the Dark Force Temple far off in the distance and they didn't even get to the swamp before they had felt the effects, Ben lost his ability to command the Force almost completely, Jaina had a migraine and had difficulty even sensing her surroundings and in Katarn's case by the time he'd got in the temple he'd been corrupted by the dark side energies he'd spent almost a day in.

 

I am not sure your theory on proximity to Dark Side nexi is as... limited as you think it is, it sounds to me like such effects can reach for miles and miles around.

The Dark Force Temple is said to be an immensely powerful dark side nexus. And again I can't comment about Yoda, though he must have found something, else how would he have known it was in the bounds of the Old Sith Empire?

[LadyKulvax]

The Dark Force Temple is said to be an immensely powerful dark side nexus. And again I can't comment about Yoda, though he must have found something, else how would he have known it was in the bounds of the Old Sith Empire?

 

As is the Dark Temple and as is the nexus that apparently resided in the Emperor's Citadel, due merely to his presence and many of his experiments..

 

Also, he found the planet and realised it was Dromund Kaas, I imagine the legends passed down throughout the centuries of it's eternally dark skies and stormy atmosphere gave it away, especially the miasma of Dark Side energy that resided there.

 

I mean if anyone knows of Dromund Kaas it'd be Yoda, I will say that it never states he landed there only that he patrolled the planet, which may mean he only went through it's atmosphere in his ship and left again after he felt it's effects and realised what place it was.

Edited July 11, 2013 by LadyKulvax

[Aurbere]

I mean if anyone knows of Dromund Kaas it'd be Yoda, I will say that it never states he landed there only that he patrolled the planet, which may mean he only went through it's atmosphere in his ship and left again after he felt it's effects and realised what place it was.

 

It's likely that he did. The Revenge of the Sith Visual Dictionary states that he visited countless remote and unknown worlds.

 

Also, Dromund Kaas is likely to be known by the Jedi. It served as the capitol of the Sith Empire in a decades long war. It's likely that the Jedi recorded Kaas in the Archives after, or even during, the war.

[Aurbere]

I don't have Book of Sith yet, but something I read on its preview page on Barnes & Noble was interesting. Apparently the Book of Sith came into possession of Master Yoda because he apprently added comments in the book like he did in The Jedi Path.

 

At least, that's what the book overview said.

 

So it's likely that Yoda knows of Kaas through this book as well.

Edited July 11, 2013 by Aurbere

[LadyKulvax]

I don't have Book of Sith yet, but something I read on its preview page on Barnes & Noble was interesting. Apparently the Book of Sith came into possession of Master Yoda because he apprently added comments in the book like he did in The Jedi Path.

 

At least, that's what the book overview said.

 

So it's likely that Yoda knows of Kaas through this book as well.

 

Good point, I have the book myself, he does make notes.

[Beniboybling]

As is the Dark Temple and as is the nexus that apparently resided in the Emperor's Citadel, due merely to his presence and many of his experiments..

 

Also, he found the planet and realised it was Dromund Kaas, I imagine the legends passed down throughout the centuries of it's eternally dark skies and stormy atmosphere gave it away, especially the miasma of Dark Side energy that resided there.

 

I mean if anyone knows of Dromund Kaas it'd be Yoda, I will say that it never states he landed there only that he patrolled the planet, which may mean he only went through it's atmosphere in his ship and left again after he felt it's effects and realised what place it was.

That is a point. Though we can't say for sure, we can at least say that the nexus was not as strong as it was around the areas that Yoda, Luke and the others visisted as Meetra made no comment on a diminished connection to the Force. However in a battle situation its possibly that in attempting to reach the highest levels of her power, she found herself unable.

 

I would agree though that Meetra was weaker than she was when storming the Trayus Academy on Malachor.

[LadyKulvax]

That is a point. Though we can't say for sure, we can at least say that the nexus was not as strong as it was around the areas that Yoda, Luke and the others visisted as Meetra made no comment on a diminished connection to the Force. However in a battle situation its possibly that in attempting to reach the highest levels of her power, she found herself unable.

 

I would agree though that Meetra was weaker than she was when storming the Trayus Academy on Malachor.

 

All I am attempting to say is that the Exile's ability to call on the force was diminished and suffered the same effects that other Jedi did when visiting Dromund Kaas.

 

If this effect was not applied I say she may well have been a match for Nyriss, as she was for the Triumvirate and Darths Sion and Traya.

Edited July 11, 2013 by LadyKulvax

[Beniboybling]

All I am attempting to say is that the Exile's ability to call on the force was diminished and suffered the same effects that other Jedi did when visiting Dromund Kaas.

 

If this was not true I say she may well have been a match for Nyriss, as she was for the Triumvirate and Darths Sion and Traya.

I think to say she suffered the same effects as other Jedi is simply impossible, if Meetra had been experiencing migraines and a visible inability to use the Force, it would have been touched on in the novel.

 

EDIT: However it was likely there, still that alone as you say would still make her a match for Nyriss. But then we have to remember that if the wound inside of her did in fact close then she goes back to above average Meetra we are told about pre-Malachor V - and Nyriss handedly defeats her and Scourge.

Edited July 11, 2013 by Beniboybling

[LadyKulvax]

I think to say she suffered the same effects as other Jedi is simply impossible, if Meetra had been experiencing migraines and a visible inability to use the Force, it would have been touched on in the novel.

 

EDIT: However it was likely there, still that alone as you say would still make her a match for Nyriss. But then we have to remember that if the wound inside of her did in fact close then she goes back to above average Meetra we are told about pre-Malachor V - and Nyriss handedly defeats her and Scourge.

 

That was Vrook Lamar's opinion, Revan himself recalls her as a very powerful Jedi throughout the Mandalorian Wars and awards her with an entire third of his fleet.

 

We also don't know that, she absorbed the force energies of those around her and grew exponentially more powerful over time, achieving a state of Enlightenment which is described as a form of mastery over the Light Side of the Force, this is seen when she wields Sever Force against Darth Traya, some one whom if we take a small piece of cut content into account, easily tore through Sion's force barriers and choked him out.

 

To say that it just disappeared because she stopped absorbing the life energies and power of her opponents. doesn't make all that much sense to me.

 

There is a variance on how effected Jedi can be by Dromund Kaas, Yoda experienced none of these yet he still had his ability to call upon the Force diminished by the planet's Dark Side energies.

 

Also, to add to the fact that she wouldn't be able to call upon her force prowess properly, she nearly died at Nathema and then arrived on the Sith Empire's capital world, where she was likely unable to heal herself properly.

Edited July 11, 2013 by LadyKulvax

[Aurbere]

Good point, I have the book myself, he does make notes.

 

Alright. At least I wasn't talking out of my rear-end.

[Beniboybling]

That was Vrook Lamar's opinion, Revan himself recalls her as a very powerful Jedi throughout the Mandalorian Wars and awards her with an entire third of his fleet.

 

We also don't know that, she absorbed the force energies of those around her and grew exponentially more powerful over time, achieving a state of Enlightenment which is described as a form of mastery over the Light Side of the Force, this is seen when she wields Sever Force against Darth Traya, some one whom if we take a small piece of cut content into account, easily tore through Sion's force barriers and choked him out.

 

To say that it just disappeared because she stopped absorbing the life energies and power of her opponents. doesn't make all that much sense to me.

 

There is a variance on how effected Jedi can be by Dromund Kaas, Yoda experienced none of these yet he still had his ability to call upon the Force diminished by the planet's Dark Side energies.

 

Also, to add to the fact that she wouldn't be able to call upon her force prowess properly, she nearly died at Nathema and then arrived on the Sith Empire's capital world, where she was likely unable to heal herself properly.

Isn't Vrook Lamar's opinion a bit more reliable than Revan's. Given the fact that this is the same Revan who said Meetra is more powerful than him? Also remember that in terms of commanding armies, power is secondary to ability.

 

And as for your second paragraph, I actually agree, I'm just trying to work this out. I'm not really entirely sure if the powers she gained through her wound would be lost when the wound faded... clearly however she became more powerful than before.

 

Also how diminished were Yoda's abilities, it could have been my only a small amount. I mean, Yoda says that the dark side threat that is the Sith diminished the Jedi's power in the Force, yet he was still able to do some incredibly impressive things.

 

And I'm not sure how much recovery time she would have need after Nathema... I mean its not as if she was stabbed.

[LadyKulvax]

Isn't Vrook Lamar's opinion a bit more reliable than Revan's. Given the fact that this is the same Revan who said Meetra is more powerful than him? Also remember that in terms of commanding armies, power is secondary to ability.

 

And as for your second paragraph, I actually agree, I'm just trying to work this out. I'm not really entirely sure if the powers she gained through her wound would be lost when the wound faded... clearly however she became more powerful than before.

 

Also how diminished were Yoda's abilities, it could have been my only a small amount. I mean, Yoda says that the dark side threat that is the Sith diminished the Jedi's power in the Force, yet he was still able to do some incredibly impressive things.

 

And I'm not sure how much recovery time she would have need after Nathema... I mean its not as if she was stabbed.

 

Vrook Lamar had a clear dislike of Meetra from day one, also when did Revan say she was more powerful? I only remember Revan saying she was a very powerful Jedi in her own right and whilst true, this was basically Darth Revan, he put Alek in command of the other third and Alek was't some tactical genius, he used overwhelming numbers in brute force strikes, I reckon he put Alek in command just because he was powerful, the same could very well be said of the Exile.

 

And yes but Yoda clearly felt his ability to call on the Force was diminished enough to leave.

Where the others are concerned they either simply couldn't call on the Force or turned to the Dark Side, whether or not the Dark Side energy was more powerful due to proximity to the Dark Force Temple isn't something I can guess at.

 

What I can say is, I reckon the Dark Temple, a place filled with the Sith spirits of Lords and Darths, as well as the place the Emperor commits most of his experiments, was a stronger Dark Side Nexus than the Dark Force Temple was, as it was merely the site of a small group known as the Prophets of the Dark Side.

 

And whilst this is true, it still nearly killed her and must have caused some damage, she can't have gone back to fine and dandy, she was clearly afraid of Nathema and her psyche struggles to believe that such a place exists because that is how repulsive it is to her, some kind of damage lingered on inside her because she could actually feel it after she had left, on multiple occasions.

Edited July 11, 2013 by LadyKulvax

[Wolfninjajedi]

When a place diminishes Yoda and Luke's ability for The Force, you know **** just got real.

[tunewalker]

When a place diminishes Yoda and Luke's ability for The Force, you know **** just got real.

 

Actually just had a thought could it be the fact that the connection of some of those people is so strong that when they are weakened they really FEEL it while ones like Meetra would be possibly quite a bit weaker then these people so she wouldn't FEEL the effects as much as masters like Luke and Yoda. Ben also had a huge potential but do to cutting himself off from the force for a time it took him a while to really regain it and by the time he was 18 he was probably only some of the way there but its possible Kaas was draining him as if his power was what it should have been rather then the power he was limiting himself to.

[BradTheImpaler]

When a place diminishes Yoda and Luke's ability for The Force, you know **** just got real.

 

Yeah...did it do the same to the Hero of Tython? I haven't played through the JK story but I've heard nothing that suggests this.

[Girdeux]

Yeah...did it do the same to the Hero of Tython? I haven't played through the JK story but I've heard nothing that suggests this.

 

No it didnt.