Karpyshyn's Surik vs Avellone's Exile.

[Darth_Omega]

No it didnt.

 

Yeah, it didn't seem to affect him in the slightest. Though that could be due to the same reason he was able to resist the Emperor's mind domination.

[Darth_Omega]

Vrook Lamar had a clear dislike of Meetra from day one, also when did Revan say she was more powerful?

 

I'm pretty sure in the book Revan, He said he recalled her being a powerful Jedi. Never said she was more powerful than himself.

[tunewalker]

Yeah, it didn't seem to affect him in the slightest. Though that could be due to the same reason he was able to resist the Emperor's mind domination.

 

Ya that's what I assumed it had something to do with the mind domination break from Act 2.

[Darth_Omega]

Ya that's what I assumed it had something to do with the mind domination break from Act 2.

 

I'm not sure if I remember quite correctly, but didn't Orgus Din's ghost place a shield around his mind?

[BradTheImpaler]

Yeah, it didn't seem to affect him in the slightest. Though that could be due to the same reason he was able to resist the Emperor's mind domination.

 

But so were Revan and the Exile.

[Darth_Omega]

But so were Revan and the Exile.

 

The Exile definitely seemed weaker on Dromund Kaas. Revan calls upon the Darkside as well as the light side, so it's not so hard to believe that he wasn't weakened by it.

 

Edit: Wait, no, I read that wrong. Revan resisted his Domination because he acheived a oneness in the force. And the Exile was never targeted by his domination.

Edited July 12, 2013 by Darth_Omega

[tunewalker]

I'm not sure if I remember quite correctly, but didn't Orgus Din's ghost place a shield around his mind?

 

Ya I think that may have protected him from the nexus in dormund kaas

[LadyKulvax]

Now this is the discussion I like to see, theory-crafting whilst using canon to make our claims and build our arguments, much better than some of the less pleasant discussions I've seen going on.

[tunewalker]

Now this is the discussion I like to see, theory-crafting whilst using canon to make our claims and build our arguments, much better than some of the less pleasant discussions I've seen going on.

 

lol I love how you called it theory crafting cus I feel like that is the perfect phrase for this lol. Make the assumption both characters are the same figure out how the disparities work and why.

[LadyKulvax]

One of the main points of this thread is to also solidify what kind of power she had in the first place, so she can be actively debated against others, otherwise there is no way to make a viable argument for her because half the time you dont even get to use an argument for the Exile because it ends up being an argument about how powerful she herself is in the first place.

[Aurbere]

One of the main points of this thread is to also solidify what kind of power she had in the first place, so she can be actively debated against others, otherwise there is no way to make a viable argument for her because half the time you dont even get to use an argument for the Exile because it ends up being an argument about how powerful she herself is in the first place.

 

It's difficult to argue for a character who's inconsistent. And yet, I feel we have made great strides in discovering why that is in-universe.

[LadyKulvax]

It's difficult to argue for a character who's inconsistent. And yet, I feel we have made great strides in discovering why that is in-universe.

 

Yeh that was always one of the main points of this thread, I want us to be able to agree on a set level of power so she doesn't have to be continuously over-looked.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Well seems to me, this thread has made some clarification though whom should Suirk be compared to level wise?

[LadyKulvax]

It's not so much that she needs to be compared against someone but much more down the road of we have a reason why she was frankly pathetic in 'Revan' so we dont have someone say 'but teh nyrizzzz!!1' as soon as she gets mentioned, which happens EVERY time now. Edited July 12, 2013 by LadyKulvax

[Aurbere]

Well seems to me, this thread has made some clarification though whom should Suirk be compared to level wise?

 

Rayla did a good job with the clarifications, but who to compare Surik to? I really have no idea.

[Aurbere]

It's not so much that she needs to be compared against someone but much more down the road, so we dont have someone 'but teh nyrizzzz!!1' as soon as she gets mentioned, which happens EVERY time now.

 

Yeah, that's always disappointing. And it's kinda what killed the first BattleZone.

[BradTheImpaler]

The Exile definitely seemed weaker on Dromund Kaas. Revan calls upon the Darkside as well as the light side, so it's not so hard to believe that he wasn't weakened by it.

 

Edit: Wait, no, I read that wrong. Revan resisted his Domination because he acheived a oneness in the force. And the Exile was never targeted by his domination.

 

In other words, Revan and the Hero of Tython were able to resist the Emperor's attempts to dominate their minds, and this may have naturally strengthened their resistance to Dromund Kaas itself as much of its corruption could be attributed directly to the Emperor. Meanwhile, the Emperor never bothered to try to dominate the Exile's mind (probably because she was far too determined a light-sider) and so the Exile was weakened.

 

This makes sense. It's sort of like how when you try to tame the corruption in Freedon Nadd's tomb in KOTOR 2, it drains you temporarily, while the opposite happens if you embrace the dark side to an extent.

[Darth_Omega]

In other words, Revan and the Hero of Tython were able to resist the Emperor's attempts to dominate their minds, and this may have naturally strengthened their resistance to Dromund Kaas itself as much of its corruption could be attributed directly to the Emperor. Meanwhile, the Emperor never bothered to try to dominate the Exile's mind (probably because she was far too determined a light-sider) and so the Exile was weakened.

 

This makes sense. It's sort of like how when you try to tame the corruption in Freedon Nadd's tomb in KOTOR 2, it drains you temporarily, while the opposite happens if you embrace the dark side to an extent.

 

With Revan, his not being weakened on Dromund Kaas was more likely due to him being willing and able to draw on the Dark Side of the Force. With the Exile, I believe she was not targeted by his domination due to her not even getting the chance to fight him. I believe had Scourge not betrayed her, the Emperor would have most likely tried to dominate her mind.

 

Also, regarding the possibility of Meetra's wound being closed up. Chris Avellone himself stated that (while acknowledging that this statement was non canon) he believed Nihilus to be the Exiles other half. This does make a good amount of sense, being that they were the only two to have received wounds from Malachor V, and they were like opposites yet similar at the same time. Thus, killing Nihilus could have aided in closing her wound. And of course we can't forget Malachor V, which became a wound in the force as well, when destroyed probably finished the job of closing the Exile's wound.

[Emperor-Norton]

I thought one of the ideas in KotOR 2 was that the Triumvirate weren't really that powerful in their own right, they just had special tricks and tactics that allowed them to defeat the Jedi. While the Exile (being a Wound in the Force) was immune to them and therefore could beat them. In other words, someone like Nihilus or Sion aren't as strong in the Force or as good of a warrior as say, Revan or Nyriss. Sion is just more or less unkillable, while Nihilus can consume things with the Force. By overcoming those special abilities, the Exile defeated them. I haven't played KotOR 2 for a long time so I could be mistaken, but to me it makes sense that the Exile could be able to defeat the Triumvirate while not being as powerful as Revan or a member of the Dark Council. That and the whole fact that she was fighting Imperial Guardsmen only a few dozen meters from the Emperor (aka, the Guardsmen were much stronger than they normally would be).

[LadyKulvax]

Wrong, only the Sith Assassins were so specialised, they became as powerful as their target was, Darth Nihilus on the other hand used the same techniques that Vitiate did to become immortal, Darth Sion was no product of the Trayus Academy, he simply didn't die when killed in the Exar Kun War, rose up again and continued for nearly 47 years. Edited July 13, 2013 by LadyKulvax

[Beniboybling]

I thought one of the ideas in KotOR 2 was that the Triumvirate weren't really that powerful in their own right, they just had special tricks and tactics that allowed them to defeat the Jedi. While the Exile (being a Wound in the Force) was immune to them and therefore could beat them. In other words, someone like Nihilus or Sion aren't as strong in the Force or as good of a warrior as say, Revan or Nyriss. Sion is just more or less unkillable, while Nihilus can consume things with the Force. By overcoming those special abilities, the Exile defeated them. I haven't played KotOR 2 for a long time so I could be mistaken, but to me it makes sense that the Exile could be able to defeat the Triumvirate while not being as powerful as Revan or a member of the Dark Council. That and the whole fact that she was fighting Imperial Guardsmen only a few dozen meters from the Emperor (aka, the Guardsmen were much stronger than they normally would be).

Well that's partly what I thought, Meetra didn't defeat Sion, Nihilus and Traya by being more powerful, but by turning away from power - which in turn is why Traya saw her as her greatest student. In fact if you look at the dialogue between Sion and the Exile:

 

Why... why did she choose you? What makes you able to defeat me, defeat me here?

 

To which you can reply:

 

Because I was able to turn away from it. And you could not.

 

or

 

In giving up the Force, one can gain strengths that would be impossible otherwise.

 

That said I think by rejecting power, the Exile became stronger because of it. Being a wound in the Force gave her a new kind of power, if she had just been powerful I expect she would have never have made it to the Trayus Core.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Well that's partly what I thought, Meetra didn't defeat Sion, Nihilus and Traya by being more powerful, but by turning away from power - which in turn is why Traya saw her as her greatest student. In fact if you look at the dialogue between Sion and the Exile:

 

Why... why did she choose you? What makes you able to defeat me, defeat me here?

 

To which you can reply:

 

Because I was able to turn away from it. And you could not.

 

or

 

In giving up the Force, one can gain strengths that would be impossible otherwise.

 

That said I think by rejecting power, the Exile became stronger because of it. Being a wound in the Force gave her a new kind of power, if she had just been powerful I expect she would have never have made it to the Trayus Core.

 

So in other words....plot device!

[S_W_LeGenD]

The inconsistencies we see between the Jedi Exile that was canonised in the sourcebooks and the Meetra Surik character by Drew Karpyshyn may as well have been different characters, this thread will try to make sense of it.

 

To go from single-handedly stomping on the Triumvirate and two of it's leaders that resided in the greatest Dark Side nexus ever to struggling with a few Imperial Guards and not being able to beat a Dark Council member is a drastic change for me.

 

The only thing that could possibly explain the difference after thinking on it for so long is as follows:

 

Dromund Kaas weakens Light Side force users, combine this with her near fatal stroll on Nathema and the enhancing effects of Dromund Kaas and the numerous dark side temples, etc... that Vitiate built purposefully for the enhancing of Dark Side power on the planet and Surik may have simply been unable to use her full power.

When she arrived on Dromund Kaas, she could sense Revan's presence on this planet with her Force abilities. In addition, the cave based incident reveals that her precognitive abilities were working as well on this planet.

 

Now one of the most blatant things that we see is, no mention whatsoever of her wound, she is literally made out to be just another Force User with nothing unique about her at all in the Revan novel:

 

The only explanation I can think of is that her Wound was healed fully between the Lost Jedi's attack on Malachor V and her visit to Bastila Shan's apartment.

Here;

 

 

As the ship drew closer to the dingy brown world she felt a growing sense of unease and discomfort. In some ways it reminded her of Malachor V—the massive and instantaneous loss of life on that doomed world had created a wound in the Force. The activation of the mass-shadow generator had obliterated two armies, shredding apart the bonds of the Force that linked all living things.

 

Meetra had been close enough to feel the shock wave; to survive it she had cut herself off from the Force, shielding her psyche against the horrors of what she had unleashed. Many years had passed before she regained her connection to the Force, but in the end, surviving the trauma of Malachor V had given her the strength to defeat Darth Traya and her followers. (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan)

 

 

Her own opinion on the actions of Revan and the Mandalorian Wars seems to be either non-existent or changed entirely, she doesn't bother to judge him at all nor does she condemn his time as a Sith Lord, which is peculiar, especially after the heated argument on the Leviathan that is had during the Mandalorian Wars when she confronts him on his darker presence and the disappearances of numerous Jedi whom all just happen to not be blind Revanchists dedicated to his cause.

 

Instead of that all we see is her literally smiling like an idiot over finding him the entire time, I have no answer for this difference.

Was their a reason for her to be against Revan after his redemption?

 

After the events of KoTO2, Meetra met Bastilla and promised her to search for Revan and reunite him with Bastilla. In addition, Meetra and Revan shared the common objective of countering the threat of the "True Sith."

 

Another is the random disappearance of her more than noted force abilities, she was extremely adept at general precognition, battle precognition and even Echani battle precognition, yet there are numerous times when she is caught off-guard, most notedly when she is stabbed through the back by Lord Scourge and killed.

 

Another ability that seemingly disappears is her very well known ability to form force bonds in a short amount of time, sometimes even on the spot, you'd think she and Revan would form one of these bonds.

 

I am not exactly sure what kind of answer I could give to this one, did her ability to do this, just fade away? I am not sure.

See above

 

Something else that nags me is that she instantly claims he was her inspiration and a whole host of other things, to become the Jedi she is..... despite the fact that in a light side play through she actively claims repeatedly to wish she had NOT gone against the council's wishes and repeatedly agrees with the Master's she comes across over the entirety of what happened, for example if you disagree with Atris at all in your first talk, you get Dark Side points, clearly those conversation options are NOT what she said, the only ones available that give you light side points are the ones agreeing completely with everything the Jedi Masters in exile state.

 

This is a blatant contradiction with no fixing available.

Individuals grow and change with passage of time. She did regretted her decision to join the Revanchists but this doesn't means that she would harbor some kind of grudge against the (redeemed) Revan.

 

Keep in mind that Jedi are not supposed to seek revenge.

 

When Revan got his mask back, Meetra was concerned about his fall to the dark side once again but she noted that Revan was much wiser during the time of their reunion.

 

There is also the claim from Lord Scourge that she was his apprentice again, despite the fact they never served together in the Mandalorian Wars as she led the battle of Dxun, Serroco, etc... herself she was a General and commanded her own entire third of the fleet, how could she have been Revan's apprentice at all, she never spent any significant time with him.

 

The only explanation is simply that Lord Scourge doesn't know what he's talking about.

Scourge did not make such a claim, if I recall correctly.

 

One of the single largest is the fact that before the novel it was stated very clearly that the Jedi she trained would become the main foundations for a rebuilt Jedi Order, yet in the novel, when she goes to Coruscant and sees Bastila it is made very clear that the Jedi already at the Jedi Temple look on her with disdain, a complete contradiction of numerous sources including the statement from Kreia that the Jedi Temple was empty and statements from all the Jedi Masters that none others survived the conclave on Katarr.

 

According to the Revan novel she was not the harbinger of a new Jedi Order rebuilt through her own devices, it was apparently just waiting for the Triumvirate to go away to stick it's head out again.

 

This is another contradiction that has no answer.

 

Any thoughts on this?

Both Bastilla and Revan faced resentment from the Jedi Council after the events of KoTOR 1. The Sith Empire (responsible for Jedi Civil War) descended in to a state of chaos and anarchy after the fall of Malak and this led to rise of Sith Triumvirate which almost devastated the Jedi Order, but Bastilla survived (she avoided confrontation with the Sith Triumvirate for the sake of her son). The novel reveals a meeting between Meetra and Bastilla after the fall of Sith Triumvirate and during this time, the Jedi Order doesn't exists; Bastilla managed to rebuild the Jedi Order actually.

 

Though the Imperial Guards were amped by Vitiate were they not? That is another factor to consider + with Meetra being weakened, though by how much who knows...but then again this also may point that the Guard is actually not all that good if they gotta draw power from their master.

 

Palps guard didn't need to, and they kicked ***.

Imperial Guard individuals (TOR era) shared a connection with Sith Emperor (Vitiate) which made them virtually immune to Force powers, if they were stationed near him. In addition, Imperial Guard individuals (TOR era) were the best martial combatants among the (non) Force-users in the galaxy. This wasn't the case with guards of Palpatine (Sidious).

 

Except events mentioned are yes glossed over, but something like her wound in the force doesn't just go away.

Wounds can heal with passage of time.

 

I'd wager Malak is a better duellist than all three, but beyond that he's outmatched..

Malak was also decent in the field of Force powers; he managed to fight the trio of Carth, Bastilla and Revan simultaneously aboard Leviathan, which is very impressive accomplishment. During this fight, Malak managed to put all of his opponents in stasis. In the same fight, Malak managed to trap Revan in a Force Whirlwind like manifestation. However, the duel played out in such a manner that all of the opponents survived but Bastilla got captured.

 

Later on, aboard Star Forge, Malak held two Jedi in a choke-hold simultaneously, killing them both afterwards. Malak also demonstrated proficiency in applications of Force Drain and Force Lightning. In addition, Malak was capable of blocking pain with his Force abilities.

 

On the whole, Malak isn't much explored in the context of his Force abilities (in canon), but he is not to be underestimated. Malak is acknowledged as a powerful Sith Lord in canon; his capability to run a Sith Empire efficiently, reflects positively upon his capabilities.

 

Well according to the Star Wars Complete Encylopedia Meetra never actually became more powerful than Traya. That said Drew certainly sells her out short, though she didn't seem to handle the Imperial Guards and awful lot better than Scourge. That said I really don't think there is much explanation for why she was defeated by Nyriss, other than she was simply not strong enough. Sure you can say that Dromund Kaas dampened her powers, but that didn't seemed to hinder her of gosh darn Malachor V.

Mr. Karpyshyn acknowledged her (Meetra) as a powerful Jedi with great accomplishments of her own (novel makes this clear). However, if Scourge and Imperial Guard individuals (TOR era) are being underestimated by some fellow members here, then this isn't the fault of the author.

 

It wasn't just Yoda that went to Kaas.

 

Kyle Katarn actually turned to the dark side in there. Jaina and Luke had problems there as well, as the dark side was more like a thick liquid outside the temple. Ben Skywalker was severely diminished in his ability to fight while there as well.

 

This is from the Fate of the Jedi series of books when they went there to try to find the Lost Tribe or Abeloth.

A decent evidence of why the "most powerful" topics do not do justice to the argument of both the strengths and weaknesses of the characters of the mythos.

 

If we put Luke or Yoda in shoes of HoT, their is no guarantee that the former two would have succeeded in his path.

 

I simply do not see how Nyriss' lightning could defeat either Sion or Traya at all, Sion can't be killed and Traya would literally drain her of her power.

Sion was "exceedingly difficult to kill" as per SWTCE* but not invincible. And I am not sure about defensive abilities of Traya. Just because Revan had answer to Nyriss's signature power, doesn't means that Sion and Traya could cope with same power without issues or even falling.

 

 

She still wasn’t sure what to make of Lord Scourge. She had sensed that his offer to work together was sincere, though she wondered how much of that was Revan’s doing. It was easy to understand how Scourge could be drawn to him; Revan’s command of the Force was greater than that of anyone else she had ever met. And she knew how charismatic he could be. Even though he was a prisoner it wasn’t hard to imagine him being in total control of the situation.

 

 

Also, being a skilled Sith Sorcerer, Nyriss may have more up her sleeves then what have been revealed about her in the novel. She felt more dominating then even Bane and Zannah; she subdued two heavyweights of the mythos without much difficulty which is a huge accomplishment. My contention recently have been that Dark Council members are not to be foolishly underestimated.

 

Even if we assume that Meetra could not offer her 100% on Dromund Kaas, she still had help from Scourge (an above-average individual with exceptional dueling skills) but the "duo" was utterly outclassed. In-fact, the novel reveals that Meetra was "clearly outmatched" in this contest, indicating that Nyriss was stronger then the Sith Lords Meetra had previously encountered on individual basis at minimum. An argument can be made in favor of Nihilus only.

 

*SWTCE: Star Wars: The Complete Encyclopedia

 

Regardless I maintain that given the evidence we already have and the fact that Yoda suffered similar effects on the same planet, the Exile was both damaged and unable to call on her full power.

I provided an explanation above! Every individual have his share of strengths and weaknesses. The weaknesses of Yoda do not necessarily apply to Meetra.

 

I don't think Meetra was somehow super strong or anything, certainly no Sith Warrior. What irks me is that her personality and strength of character was completely misrepresented in the novel, not really her ability to fight. Furthermore, you have to remember that the Sith of the real Sith empire are incredibly strong. They aren't some Dark Jedi who found a holocron or 2, they come from the ancient traditions and secrets of the original Sith. The Triumvirate are amateurs compared to the Sith we have in TOR.

Nicely put...Though I do not think that Meetra was misrepresented in the novel; she was depicted as a good Jedi.

 

SImply put I think it makes sense that after all she had gone through and the planet she was fighting on, she was simply not nearly as effective as she could have been.

 

I mean you nearly die from lack of Force energy and then go straight to a Dark Side nexus where the likes of Katarn, Jaina, Ben and even Yoda as well as others had their powers diminished severely.

Individuals do experience both high and low moments during their lives.

 

In-fact, Meetra had the opportunity to knock out the most powerful dark side master in the galaxy but she chose to save Revan instead (when the targeted opponent was preoccupied with Revan). In comparison to her, neither Revan and Scourge would get such an opportunity.

 

Months or maybe even a year later she is nearly killed just by walking on Nathema's surface and we then see her being far less efficient and powerful, to the point where she struggles with Imperial Guardsman and gets defeated easily despite having Scourge's help against Nyriss.

1. Nathema is a void in the Force; Force-users are likely to get in to trouble in the absence of the Force.

2. You underestimate the heavyweights of the ancient Sith Empire.

 

I also can't agree with your assessment on the battle of the Trayus Academy, she fought continuously through groups of Sith ranging from Assassins, to Marauders, to Lords and then Sith Masters, then fights Darth Sion five times in a row and then faces Darth Traya herself and defeats her twice.

Impressive accomplishment.

 

However, do you know that Imperial Guard individuals (TOR era) are a match for well-trained Jedi on their own? No wonder, Meetra found them challenging opponents.

 

Also the KotOR campaign guide states that she was extremely exhausted and basically drained of energy because of a very prolonged fight by the time she severs Traya's remaining hand as a distraction and according to the book, Traya's connection to the force is severed almost completely and then Traya summons her trio of Lightsabers as a last gasp attack.

Does it? I did not notice such revelations in this sourcebook.

 

She for no reason was only ill when all other Jedi including Revan either died or turned, that simply does not make sense and her absence in the Force makes perfect sense of the difference.

Revan tolerated the environment of Malachor V just fine; his fall to the dark side was a lengthy process. Same is true for Malak.

Edited August 3, 2013 by S_W_LeGenD

[LadyKulvax]

Ah another wall o' text I am expected to responded to, I have better things to do, like my other thread, this has all been debated a re-debated and you seem to have missed half the points.

[S_W_LeGenD]

Ah another wall o' text I am expected to responded to, I have better things to do, like my other thread, this has all been debated a re-debated and you seem to have missed half the points.

I have read the entire thread; I have chosen to address some points which are the basis of your assumption about Meetra being underpowered in Dromund Kaas. Your theory is poorly imagined and constructed unfortunately.

Edited August 3, 2013 by S_W_LeGenD