Karpyshyn's Surik vs Avellone's Exile.

[LadyKulvax]

The inconsistencies we see between the Jedi Exile that was canonised in the sourcebooks and the Meetra Surik character by Drew Karpyshyn may as well have been different characters, this thread will try to make sense of it.

 

To go from single-handedly stomping on the Triumvirate and two of it's leaders that resided in the greatest Dark Side nexus ever to struggling with a few Imperial Guards and not being able to beat a Dark Council member is a drastic change for me.

 

The only thing that could possibly explain the difference after thinking on it for so long is as follows:

 

Dromund Kaas weakens Light Side force users, combine this with her near fatal stroll on Nathema and the enhancing effects of Dromund Kaas and the numerous dark side temples, etc... that Vitiate built purposefully for the enhancing of Dark Side power on the planet and Surik may have simply been unable to use her full power.

 

Now one of the most blatant things that we see is, no mention whatsoever of her wound, she is literally made out to be just another Force User with nothing unique about her at all in the Revan novel:

 

The only explanation I can think of is that her Wound was healed fully between the Lost Jedi's attack on Malachor V and her visit to Bastila Shan's apartment.

 

Her own opinion on the actions of Revan and the Mandalorian Wars seems to be either non-existent or changed entirely, she doesn't bother to judge him at all nor does she condemn his time as a Sith Lord, which is peculiar, especially after the heated argument on the Leviathan that is had during the Mandalorian Wars when she confronts him on his darker presence and the disappearances of numerous Jedi whom all just happen to not be blind Revanchists dedicated to his cause.

 

Instead of that all we see is her literally smiling like an idiot over finding him the entire time, I have no answer for this difference.

 

Another is the random disappearance of her more than noted force abilities, she was extremely adept at general precognition, battle precognition and even Echani battle precognition, yet there are numerous times when she is caught off-guard, most notedly when she is stabbed through the back by Lord Scourge and killed.

 

Another ability that seemingly disappears is her very well known ability to form force bonds in a short amount of time, sometimes even on the spot, you'd think she and Revan would form one of these bonds.

 

I am not exactly sure what kind of answer I could give to this one, did her ability to do this, just fade away? I am not sure.

 

Something else that nags me is that she instantly claims he was her inspiration and a whole host of other things, to become the Jedi she is..... despite the fact that in a light side play through she actively claims repeatedly to wish she had NOT gone against the council's wishes and repeatedly agrees with the Master's she comes across over the entirety of what happened, for example if you disagree with Atris at all in your first talk, you get Dark Side points, clearly those conversation options are NOT what she said, the only ones available that give you light side points are the ones agreeing completely with everything the Jedi Masters in exile state.

 

This is a blatant contradiction with no fixing available.

 

There is also the claim from Lord Scourge that she was his apprentice again, despite the fact they never served together in the Mandalorian Wars as she led the battle of Dxun, Serroco, etc... herself she was a General and commanded her own entire third of the fleet, how could she have been Revan's apprentice at all, she never spent any significant time with him.

 

The only explanation is simply that Lord Scourge doesn't know what he's talking about.

 

One of the single largest is the fact that before the novel it was stated very clearly that the Jedi she trained would become the main foundations for a rebuilt Jedi Order, yet in the novel, when she goes to Coruscant and sees Bastila it is made very clear that the Jedi already at the Jedi Temple look on her with disdain, a complete contradiction of numerous sources including the statement from Kreia that the Jedi Temple was empty and statements from all the Jedi Masters that none others survived the conclave on Katarr.

 

According to the Revan novel she was not the harbinger of a new Jedi Order rebuilt through her own devices, it was apparently just waiting for the Triumvirate to go away to stick it's head out again.

 

This is another contradiction that has no answer.

 

Any thoughts on this?

Edited July 10, 2013 by LadyKulvax

[Wolfninjajedi]

Aside from the obvious ones, those explanations seem viable and likely could fit. Though there of course seems more contradictions but.../shrug. However what you have given, seems fitting. Though the Imperial Guards were amped by Vitiate were they not? That is another factor to consider + with Meetra being weakened, though by how much who knows...but then again this also may point that the Guard is actually not all that good if they gotta draw power from their master.

 

Palps guard didn't need to, and they kicked ***.

Edited July 10, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

[sell-dog]

she is literally made out to be just another Force User with nothing unique about her at all in the Revan novel:

 

It's been a few months since I read the novel so the following is how I remember it. She first appears to the audience with T3 in a meeting at Bastila Shan's apartment. The novel goes on for an aside about how she saved the Jedi Order from near extinction from the Sith trio. During the in-character/novel conversation T3 explains to Shan that he has been sidetracked from searching for Revan during his time assisting Surik. Shan then feels angry, selfish, etc then the conversation switches to something else.

 

I guess my point is Surik's previous feats are mentioned in the novel (whether they are elaborated upon enough is a subjective question/debate) and she's not just some random Jedi. I hope that starts to bridge the gap/contradiction you are addressing

Edited July 10, 2013 by sell-dog

[VigDiath]

A few points that I have to make quick since I'm at work.

 

The Bond - My belief would be that the bond she had with Revan was probably the strongest since it lasted 300 years through her death and his force stasis.

 

Stabbed in the back - The book does a good job of making it seem like she and Revan were so preoccupied with Vitiates display of power that neither noticed the quick turning of events that were about to go against them. I do NOT agree with how it played out but it makes it easier to swallow. But, you also look at the Jedi from the Clone Wars era who were betrayed by their own soldiers who were NOT even close to being force users. Yet it happened.

 

Dark side miasma from DK - I find this one hard to believe since she was on Malachor 5 which could be said to have the same effect on force users to the point it drove them mad. I don't buy that it essentially 'weakened' her own force powers because of all the dark side powers on the planet. The Exile was NO weakling and if her bonds in the force with Revan were used to her advantage she would have the same advantage as he did. And he was powerful in that final battle.

 

Soooo many holes in the plot of the book and how they make The Exile out to be. I read it once because of the game and was disgusted with the outcome to say the least. The video games and source content will be how I remember the Exile.

[LadyKulvax]

Order 66 happened because the balance in the Force wouldn't allow them to sense events properly, also the Force Sense of a Jedi relies on emotions, etc.... the clones had no emotions, they didn't see it as murder or anything, they'd been told to execute their Jedi commanders on the spot because the Order had betrayed them, that's why the Jedi besides Yoda didn't figure it out.

 

Also Surik had sensed such things before in tight situations and it is noted as one of the reasons she was such an effective general, she could change tactics in a split second and stop surprise attacks, etc.... it's why the Mandalorian plan on Dxun failed miserably.

 

Also Malachor V was something she was technically a part of, she was en echo of it, it only knocked her ill where as other Jedi either died or turned to the Dark Side because of it. Nathema shows an almost fatal effect on her after her wound in the force apparently disappears. Dromund Kaas we know for a fact was changed not just via it's atmosphere but Vitiate purposefully built sites like the Dark Temple to enhance the power of the Dark Side and it could possibly have also weakened Light Side force users and for someone like the Exile halted her ability to heal herself after the expedition to Nathema, which we know as fact severely damaged her.

[LadyKulvax]

It's been a few months since I read the novel so the following is how I remember it. She first appears to the audience with T3 in a meeting at Bastila Shan's apartment. The novel goes on for an aside about how she saved the Jedi Order from near extinction from the Sith trio. During the in-character/novel conversation T3 explains to Shan that he has been sidetracked from searching for Revan during his time assisting Surik. Shan then feels angry, selfish, etc then the conversation switches to something else.

 

I guess my point is Surik's previous feats are mentioned in the novel (whether they are elaborated upon enough is a subjective question/debate) and she's not just some random Jedi. I hope that starts to bridge the gap/contradiction you are addressing

 

Except events mentioned are yes glossed over, but something like her wound in the force doesn't just go away.

[Jandi]

Drew himself said that he knew next to nothing of the character of Meetra. There is no convoluted explanations required at all. He just made it up without knowing anything about KoTOR 2.

[LadyKulvax]

Drew himself said that he knew next to nothing of the character of Meetra. There is no convoluted explanations required at all. He just made it up without knowing anything about KoTOR 2.

 

Oh i know, I was the one that sent him the email.

[tunewalker]

wouldn't weakening Meetra's lightside power also weaken Revan's would you say that the 3 sith meetra beat are stronger or weaker then Malak. The only way I generally see it working is the Novel is right the game is an exaggeration since novel's take priorities over games and that Nihilus Sion and Traya weren't as powerful as people think.

[Jandi]

Oh i know, I was the one that sent him the email.

 

Then why not simply leave it at that?

[LadyKulvax]

wouldn't weakening Meetra's lightside power also weaken Revan's would you say that the 3 sith meetra beat are stronger or weaker then Malak. The only way I generally see it working is the Novel is right the game is an exaggeration since novel's take priorities over games and that Nihilus Sion and Traya weren't as powerful as people think.

 

Revan can call on the Dark Side as well, the Exile can't.

 

Also I'd definitely say that Nihilus is, Sion is questionable as he's been killing Jedi since the Exar Kun War and Traya never really did display her power but we know that she was definitely intended to be the only one truly powerful, in the cut content she actually chokes out Sion with her mind.

 

I'd wager Malak is a better duellist than all three, but beyond that he's outmatched.

 

Also, how can you exaggerate Nihilus, he's basically a Dark Side wormhole that sucks everything in.

 

Also that would only be valid if they had only appeared in a game, they have appeared in far more than just the Sith Lords.

[mefit]

This again

Book is Canon

 

Chris took the Rarest of Skills and gave them to his creations to make each more powerful than most Characters in the SW Universe plain and simple.

 

While I like KotoR II , all this Obisidian Spam is getting wack ...........been trying to stay out these forums because always the same people saying the same things over and over .

 

Force Foresight does not work in every situation , it did not save Sidious in any period where he was going and did die . He was one of the Greatest users of Force Foresight and while Meetra (Exile whom did not have a name until someone else came along and filled that not Chris) is a powerful force user , she is not able to walk in the shadow of Sidious much like Drew's Revan .............

 

Drew's Revan might be overly thought out by the fans of Revan but Drew did not make him a God and it was Drew that also was apart of writing Foundry in which Revan originally died . Last I checked Gods do not Die .

While Chris's sithlords each has the extreme of the powers that are Rare ........ just saying.

 

And people say Revan fans are the only ones who make their Character into more than it is ........

Edited July 10, 2013 by mefit

[LadyKulvax]

Then why not simply leave it at that?

 

Because I am trying to fix a broken character.

[LadyKulvax]

Mefit well done on taking a topic to mean something completely different for the 273rd time you've commented and turning it into a flame war for no good reason. *applauds* Edited July 10, 2013 by LadyKulvax

[Aurbere]

This can only be considered to be one thing: character murder through utter ignorance. Now we can try to repair some things, but many inconsistencies will still linger.

 

Concerning this:

 

Dromund Kaas weakens Light Side force users, combine this with her near fatal stroll on Nathema and the enhancing effects of Dromund Kaas and the numerous dark side temples, etc... that Vitiate built purposefully for the enhancing of Dark Side power on the planet and Surik may have simply been unable to use her full power

 

I often theorize that this is the same for Yoda, regarding the emergence of the Dark Side and his subsequent inability to lift all of the Muntuur Stones.

[LadyKulvax]

I often theorize that this is the same for Yoda, regarding the emergence of the Dark Side and his subsequent inability to lift all of the Muntuur Stones.

 

He even visits Dromund Kaas and is unable to call out through the Force to the Jedi, due to the sheer magnitude of Dark Side energy on the planet and decides it would be better to leave as his power had little effect in the area.

 

Thank you for pointing this out, I now have canon evidence to back my claim up.

Edited July 10, 2013 by LadyKulvax

[Wolfninjajedi]

Revan can call on the Dark Side as well, the Exile can't.

 

Also I'd definitely say that Nihilus is, Sion is questionable as he's been killing Jedi since the Exar Kun War and Traya never really did display her power but we know that she was definitely intended to be the only one truly powerful, in the cut content she actually chokes out Sion with her mind.

 

I'd wager Malak is a better duellist than all three, but beyond that he's outmatched.

 

Also, how can you exaggerate Nihilus, he's basically a Dark Side wormhole that sucks everything in.

 

Also that would only be valid if they had only appeared in a game, they have appeared in far more than just the Sith Lords.

 

Well Nihilus is just one big Force Draining guy, I mean aside from that he doesn't have anything. He has one TK feat of lifting the Ravager out from Malachor V which no doubt amped his abilities and then held it together which is impressive. But as far as combat goes, there isn't really anything for him.

 

Edit: Wait actually he did Force Stasis Surik, Visas and Canderous so there is another thing.

Edited July 10, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

[LadyKulvax]

Well Nihilus is just one big Force Draining guy, I mean aside from that he doesn't have anything. He has one TK feat of lifting the Ravager out from Malachor V which no doubt amped his abilities and then held it together which is impressive. But as far as combat goes, there isn't really anything for him.

 

I honestly don't know how you could amp Nihilus, i have always seen him as a Force Entity not a Force User, I think he stopped being an actual person the moment he transferred his essence to his armor.

[tunewalker]

Revan can call on the Dark Side as well, the Exile can't.

 

Also I'd definitely say that Nihilus is, Sion is questionable as he's been killing Jedi since the Exar Kun War and Traya never really did display her power but we know that she was definitely intended to be the only one truly powerful, in the cut content she actually chokes out Sion with her mind.

 

I'd wager Malak is a better duellist than all three, but beyond that he's outmatched.

 

Also, how can you exaggerate Nihilus, he's basically a Dark Side wormhole that sucks everything in.

 

Also that would only be valid if they had only appeared in a game, they have appeared in far more than just the Sith Lords.

 

that's actually a really good explanation I like it carry on.

[Wolfninjajedi]

I honestly don't know how you could amp Nihilus, i have always seen him as a Force Entity not a Force User, I think he stopped being an actual person the moment he transferred his essence to his armor.

 

Well Malachor V is a nexus of the darkside, I don't see why he wouldn't be amped with the energies living or not. Though its not like ship lifting is anything new really.

Edited July 10, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

[LadyKulvax]

Well Malachor V is a nexus of the darkside, I don't see why he wouldn't be amped with the energies living or not. Though its not like ship lifting is anything new really.

 

I just thought like any other force energy he'd devour any Dark Side force power too, that seems to be what is suggested, he devours any Force energy, not just the regular Light type.

 

What am saying, is it would just feed him not empower him, whether there is a proper difference I'm not sure.

[Wolfninjajedi]

I just thought like any other force energy he'd devour any Dark Side force power too, that seems to be what is suggested, he devours any Force energy, not just the regular Light type.

 

What am saying, is it would just feed him not empower him, whether there is a proper difference I'm not sure.

 

/Shrug

 

Eh who knows.

[LadyKulvax]

Oh and he did use some dark variation of Force Sever to strip Traya of her power.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Oh and he did use some dark variation of Force Sever to strip Traya of her power.

 

With Sion's help in both kicking the crap outta her.

Edited July 10, 2013 by Wolfninjajedi

[LadyKulvax]

With Sion's help in both kicking the crap outta her.

 

Well Nihilus force pushes her into the wall, severs her connection as seen when she fails to call upon her lightsaber and then Sion just starts physically assaulting her.

 

We see in the cut content that Traya would put Sion on his arse.