Dear fanbase... Why?

[Damask_Rose]

The problem I see with your post is that you are comparing an MMO to non-MMOs. What you are referring to as "entitled" is largely standard for MMOs.

 

When you subscribe to pretty much any subscription based MMO out there you will get full access to the game (aside from expansions) with regular bug fixes and small, regular content additions. Loyalty rewards based on length of subscription are also fairly common. Recurring special events tied to major holidays are to be expected. A lot of the complaints stem from people who are used to playing traditional subscription based MMOs and who feel that SWtOR is no longer meeting up with industry standards.

 

Times are changing and both Bioware and the player base need to adjust to the changes. Both sides are feeling around trying to figure out what should be expected from a hybrid model game. It is probably better for the pushing and shoving to happen on the forums than for people to simply quit if they think Bioware has gone too far in the pay to play direction.

[Pubsam]

This game has never deserved the sheer amount of hate that it has gotten from day one. I understand disappointment, because there were some promises made that have yet to be fulfilled, and I understand annoyance and even anger at some of the issues the game has had (and still has), but I have never understood why so many people WANT this to fail.

 

What you and the OP are really not getting is that it's possible to be critical of the game and not want it to fail. Some of the criticism is constructive, some not, but everyone complaining does it because they want the game to be better, to continue being fun, to become more fun, and for them to have more reasons to log in. I doubt anyone on these forums, no matter how disappointed in the game/BW/EA, wants it to tank unless they're writing some "SUB CANCELED GUYS" post.

 

Obviously some demands are outrageous and some people express themselves aggressively and rudely, but BW really doesn't need the white knights suppressing dissent for them. (1) They are interested in reading the dissent I'm sure, even if they just dismiss it out of hand. (2) Forum morale is likely not their most reliable metric for how people are feeling. They have figures on account activity, subscription activity, cartel market activity, that tells them a lot more.

 

If you disagree with someone's complaints and are able to express that disagreement with an actual positive reason (i.e. not an accusation of entitlement) of why you like... the 500 CC gift, the Ewok for CCs, the CM philosophy, etc. then that's great. I bet BW likes to read that too. But this thread? Entirely not constructive toward any goal than causing disagreement and drama within the community. Way to be.

[Desolaytore]

Agreed. I wish more people were appreciative and silent. But, complainers will complain. Someday, they might figure out what constructive feedback looks like and leave some. Until then.... PARTY ON DARTH!

 

 

Says the guy who wants to bypass all the levels right to 55 and skip the entire story-line for CC. EA loves you dearly.

[TalkingDinosaur]

So, here we are, playing a MMO. Star Wars, the Old Republic, actually. It's actually free to play, but we subscribed, because we want full access to the game, right?

 

See, the problem I have is that for any other game, we wouldn't expect to receive rewards just for buying it. The reward would be the game itself. If we bought Halo 4, we expect to be able to play... Halo 4. There aren't any special discounts for being a long time Halo fan. There aren't any random in game drops that are like "Hey, you're awesome, just like everyone else who bought this game! Enjoy a rocket launcher for the next couple of stages!"

 

We bought the game so that we could play it. Yet we demand that we be given extra for doing exactly what we do with every other game. You paid to have fun, to enjoy the storyline, to have a good time with the other players. And instead of just one storyline and character, we have at least 8, which split into further playstyles. This game has an incredible replay value for the $15 we paid for a month of subscribing - it would be the rough equivalent of, say, Halo 4 for $15? That's if you only stuck to one character, when there are many many different possibilities, as I just said.

 

Then we go and hate on Bioware as a whole for displeasing us over one little thing! Bioware, the same company that made Mass Effect, for Emperor's sake. Yes, the ending was bad but was the ride there not spectacular? Let's not even talk about KOTOR the original, or Baldur's Gate, or any number of the great titles they've put out.

 

 

 

My point is, Bioware and this game aren't perfect, but I really, really feel like I've spent my money well on this game. I enjoy the time I spend with my guildmates, or questing, or dominating the GTN, or whatever. Getting upset over Treek, or the Sub appreciation thing not being 'good enough' (when they didn't even need to do it in the first place), or whatever other excuse people use to get mad - it just doesn't work for me. I'd rather be playing The Old Republic with a smile on my face than complaining about the few flaws that it has.

 

... and that's all I have to say about that

They are truly only a handful of people like this guy left in the world.

[Machine-Elf]

My main 3 issues with the game are:

2- All the content that was released in SWTOR - free for subscribers or not - is content that was being developed long before the shift to ftp..

This is correct, the Achievements system included.

So now that we know that...ever stop to think what Cartel Market Items were originally intended for? I'll give everyone a hint: achievement system rewards.

 

Given this fact, I think it's pretty obvious what the best way to reward subscribers would be.

Edited July 6, 2013 by Machine-Elf

[Darth-Malice]

complaining about complainers is still complaining. Lead by example OP and don't post at all and feed the cycle.

[CosmicKat]

The only flaw in your theory is that a standard game runs about $60. That's a one-time cost. Many new games have high replayability through varied content or just the style of the game. Many new games have editors available that allow for nearly endless free user-created content. Some types of games are continually patched and enhanced for free by their publishers, and have DLC released (ex. Civilization series).

 

A year's subscription to TOR costs $180 (paid monthly). That's the price of 3 stand-alone games per year. Yes, a lot of stand-alone games don't have a 4 month life, but many have years of replayability to them.

 

People expect more from a subscription based game because they cost a lot more to play.

[Caelrie]

You neglected to remember that you keep paying for it every month. You didn't just buy it.

[OddballEasyEight]

see, back when the only way to get the game was to buy it and subscribe - sure it was worth it.

 

but nowadays. game is free. I don't have to subscribe to play it. I don't have to keep subscribing to keep playing it. so... why should I? what is my incentive? few minor conveniences that can be circumvented through cartel market unlocks (that others sell on GTN so I don't even have to pay any extra real life money for them)? goodness of my heart?

 

the game is great. the game is fun. its the subscription model that's... not so great IMO.

 

because call me a jerk or whatever, but I don't see why I should give money to someone when I don't have to. unless giving money comes with benefits I cannot get for free.

 

Well then just dont subscribe?

 

You dont HAVE to sub any more. You said so yourself.

So wanting something "special" just because you sub is still a silly argument.

 

If you dont feel that the stuff you get for those 15$ each month (less if you buy bulk) is worth it, then simply unsubscribe instead of making a fuss about it.

Personally i could not be without the extra xp you get as a subscriber. And i really hated the money cap when i tried playing as preferred.

I suggest you try it out before you start talking about how little difference there is.

And if you happen to feel content with your preferred status, i suggest you stay there and dont come back here whining about not getting extra stuff as a subber.

[OddballEasyEight]

The only flaw in your theory is that a standard game runs about $60. That's a one-time cost. Many new games have high replayability through varied content or just the style of the game. Many new games have editors available that allow for nearly endless free user-created content. Some types of games are continually patched and enhanced for free by their publishers, and have DLC released (ex. Civilization series).

 

A year's subscription to TOR costs $180 (paid monthly). That's the price of 3 stand-alone games per year. Yes, a lot of stand-alone games don't have a 4 month life, but many have years of replayability to them.

 

People expect more from a subscription based game because they cost a lot more to play.

 

Actually, MOST games out there nowadays go for 60$ (or more) and last only 3-8 hours before you have to replay them. Sure some might have a bit of a difference when replaying them, but most dont.

Theres always the games that last forever tho, like civ or total war games. But thats a whole different genre.

MMO's with an optional sub usually dont dole out rewards to subbers each month... Well, not more than SW:TOR already does anyway (with the 500+ free cc each month)

[AlrikFassbauer]

I see things always in the big scale.

 

And I believe that this "complaining" thing might actually be a society thing.

Or / and a generations thing.

Short-time memory only.

Plusthis "I want everything, and I want it now" thing, which I once heard in different forums might be a typical american thing. Unknown here in Europe, at least where I live.

 

Edit : And worst of it all : THe gaming industry is currently running an MASSIVE experiment on how to shape customers and their expectations. Society-wise. Globally-wise.

Edited July 6, 2013 by AlrikFassbauer

[Leafy_Bug]

A refresher's course is needed for most in this thread and especially for the original poster. So having said that, please find below a few reasons as to why subscribers are so unappreciative to BioWare's efforts.

 

Like many others, I paid 165 euros for the game. I have friends who paid 76 euros for the deluxe version. This was a steep price for the game and a lot more than a single player game at the time. Hey it was Star Wars so we shelled out the money. When my copy arrived in that December, I was in the Uk at the time. I installed it on my gaming laptop and surprise surprise, performance was bad. I was asking myself, why it runs so bad because other games would run fine. The next day I flew home and Installed the game on my main rig. i7920@4.0GHz, 24GB of RAM, 4 x 5870XXX, 4x Vertex 2 drives (what I had at the time, now I have 4x Samsung Pro 840), 3 x 2410 Dell screens, etc. Game was surprisingly bad looking compared to other single player games. I had to disable 1 card in certain areas, 2 in others and 3 even for EV. Even now, after so much time, you start the EV fight in 16 man, first boss, and it is a lag fest.

 

 

So the original impression was that the game runs poorly and because it is new problems are expected. I understood, I was paying a subscription for the game and my contribution should have allowed the staff to iron out these kinks. A few patches later, performance yoyo-ed around as well as the bugs. Some were fixed and even more introduced. The main issue here was that overall the game was running bad. Ilum was unplayable, 1 FPS at times, EV was so bugged you would have to pray for a flawless run at Soa where all the platforms would show up and KP the Rancor would reset himself whenever it would suit him. He reset for us in 16M NiM at 1 % once.

 

 

Warzones were nice until you would end up in a corner with 10 different aoes. Your frame rate would drop and the game would not be enjoyable at all. Originally there were three warzones Voidstar, Alderaan and Huttball which were a breath of fresh air until you lagged like crazy.

 

 

So to summarize so far, I paid 165 euros and a 3 month sub, to wait 2 months and still have issues enjoying the game. The loading screens were horrendous and even today they are the same. The introduced Kaon as a flashpoint and in the beginning the Turret boss was unplayable. Lag fest over lag fest. It took them 1 year to say in the patch notes 'improved performance in Kaon'. Furthermore, as a CE owner, I had access to a special vendor in game. BioWare promised to introduce exclusive items and give us access. This never happened and customers do not like being lied too.

 

 

More time passes, the content is still the same, broken mostly, BioWare guides told us to remove shadows and AA completely for an increase of performance, and servers started dying. Now i ask you original poster, why did the servers die? People left because BioWare could not deliver. They could not deliver on two fronts : making a game that is actually enjoyable, from a performance point of view, and putting out new content. People went to other MMOs that delivered faster what they wanted. Quite a few of you like to reply to my posts about performance in terms of 'stop using a toaster' and I point out that my rig was 3200 euros when i built it and no game caused the issues SWTOR has caused me, is causing me, and at how BioWare staff works, will cause me.

 

 

 

The servers died and my original one, Lord Calypho, had 35 people online peak time. All the rep fleet was in Dai Bendu the guild I was running. We were so bored of PVE at that point that we did PVP 24/7. There were days when I did 2 wz every 2 hours and others where all night it was Dai Bendu vs Dai Bendu. BioWare reacted and opened up server transfers that led to mergers. Guess what? Lord Calypho, the only RP-PVP was kept the way it was. We had to open threads and ask BioWare to allow transfers. The paying customer was denied originally by the service provider to move on a server and enjoy the game. Eventually we moved on TOFN with wait times of 2 hours to log in. Then this server died as well. Again, why? Lack of content and reliable service.

 

 

 

The last nail in the coffin, for us the subscribers, was the F2P model. This gave people the opportunity to purchase everything and subscribers had to pay as well. So I paid 165 euros for the game, over a year of subscription and now I am asked to pay more if I want certain things. But leafy!!! You get FREE cartel coins every month! Use them to buy your stuff. No, I do not get free cartel coins, I pay to get these coins.

 

 

 

So my dear EA/BW white Knights, some of the people here have been playing the game longer than you have and have a pretty good knowledge of how BioWare lied to us, promised the world, and gave us the minimum the could in order to milk us for more money. The fact that performance has not been fixed for such a long time clearly shows what their priority is. The lack of content in both the PVP/PVE areas combined with the constant cartel market updates show again why this game has been the biggest failure of all times. Andryah and co S T F U because clearly you have no clue at how bad this game is. Go play another MMO for a week then come back to SWTOR and laugh at the piss performance on the fleet. 2s for speeder to show up, 10 seconds for the mission dropbox to be rendered.

 

 

 

I will end my post with this : thank god the original BioWare founders left, they did not want their image tarnished with such a game. This shall never be a pure BioWare game even if it wears the name.

Edited July 6, 2013 by Leafy_Bug

[Leafy_Bug]

but wait ...thesh moar!!

 

 

I can't remember who it was james ohlen i think, I mean so many people come and go at BioWare its like a truck stop. One time someone says something, this never happens and a page from the late Steve Jobs is used 'you heard it wrong' So mr. Ohlen introduces allies in his fancy video with the group finder. What he neglects to mention is that DPS queues for this varies from 5 minutes to 2 hours. So as a Sentinel I have rarely got a pop unless I go with the guild. Furthermore, we are all forced to queue as tanks/healers when leveling otherwise a pop will never show. Tanks and healers have an advantage but as always BioWare does nothing to stimulate this population and allow more and more pops in the finder. Tank drops are so rare that people have no reason to use the finder. Why not give a baggy to a tank or a healer at the end with an item or any other way to stimulate tanks and healers would be nice.

 

 

 

Then there was another dude that said something about the legacy system. How your family and legacy this, that, OMG!. What happened with the legacy? Absolutely ZILCH. We are legacy 50 and we got didly squat. If we get something we have to use in game credits or cartel coins. The cartel coin idea bypasses the legacy restriction. So just like the CE vendors, the legacy idea was pumped up with fluffy unicorns. 4 buffs is nice tho, I have to admit.

 

 

The eternal UI bug where we need to CTRL+u twice is still there, even more prevalent today. I go into a FP, i come out, I have no UI. I refresh, sometimes it works, sometimes I have to relog. Every second warzone, my UI is broken and I have to be level 10 to pvp. How long has this bug been around? Let us not mention the esselles bug where i have to alt+tab and stuff not to crash? Really? You make me laugh.

 

 

So the money we pay as subs, they get from the cartel coin market, goes someplace, and what is left over into fixing the game. So i guess they have a quota, with this month's earnings, we can afford to fix 2 bugs but the esselles crash requires more cash, so sorry folks, gotta wait for more.

 

 

Class balancing, should I even go there where the devs admit that they play one class and test with that? How unprofessional is this???

Edited July 6, 2013 by Leafy_Bug

[ApostleThirst]

Don't tell someone to stop making assumptions when making a ton of your own...

 

What assumptions have I made? I've said that this game, and Bioware, have more than proven themselves to me, and shouldn't be hated because of the two things that have caused so much trouble recently - Treek and the Sub appreciation gift.

 

 

It's like me giving the girlfriend a Valentine's Day coupon for a romantic dinner and some cuddle time. I'm going to give her both of those anyway...and not just on Valentine's Day...so I instead give her a dozen roses to show her how much I appreciate her. I'd love to be able to afford to give her a dozen roses every day but it's not possible because those are some expensive flowers.

 

I understand what appreciation and gifts mean, believe it or not

 

I get 500 CC every month. I'm going to get those every month I subscribe. Giving me a bonus months worth doesn't really show appreciation they way a gift that took effort and time would.

 

Yes, and no. To be honest, I think they should have given us more coins - but not anything different, because the sub base is diverse and wants different things.

 

Also, even with an additional 500 coins... I still see nothing I want to purchase from the Cartel Market. That's one of the main reasons I object so to the claims that the dev team focuses on the Cartel Market - aside from the Race unlocks, I don't have an urge to buy anything from the Cartel Market, nor do I feel any pressure to. I'm not even trying to avoid it, just playing the game normally. So why do the rest of you all suffer so much that you absolutely have to protest?

 

Dissent is healthy. Think of it as the chemical triggers that cause white blood cells to attack an infection.

 

No. Constructive criticism? Yes. But needless rioting over a forum? Who are you hoping to impress?

[ApostleThirst]

but wait ...thesh moar!!

 

This is a great disservice to you, but that wall of text is insane and overwhelming. Your effort is appreciated, but your message... should be condensed D:

[SkunkWerks]

Agreed. I wish more people were appreciative and silent.

 

I wish more people were appreciative and vocal.

 

It really doesn't work that way though.

[SwoopingLion]

I think the concerns with a F2P/Sub model being voiced are fairly rational and logical concerns to have. They're not unique to TOR either, most F2P/Sub MMOs I've seen have similar complaints.

 

The game beings Sub only, so everyone who subs expects what you always expect from a Sub only game, i.e. you get to play the game and you have access to regular updates for "free".

 

The issue arises when F2P allows people to play the game for free and spend real money to unlock the things that Subs have unlocked. If a F2P player can have the exact same gaming experience I can for a fraction of the price, naturally I'm going to question the value of my subscription. On top of that, a store or CM or whatever is introduced to milk money out of the F2P players in terms of unlocks/gear/whatever. The problem people have is when the game becomes orientated around the store, leaving subs relatively unrewarded. What new "free" content are they getting that they would in a Sub only model, for example?

 

I'm not particularly complaining, I think TOR is one of the better hybrid models I've seen (I've hardly seen them all though) but to discount anyone who has valid complaints as "entitled" or "greedy" is simplistic and blind.

[SkunkWerks]

I think the concerns with a F2P/Sub model being voiced are fairly rational and logical concerns to have. They're not unique to TOR either, most F2P/Sub MMOs I've seen have similar complaints.

 

The game beings Sub only, so everyone who subs expects what you always expect from a Sub only game, i.e. you get to play the game and you have access to regular updates for "free".

 

The issue arises when F2P allows people to play the game for free and spend real money to unlock the things that Subs have unlocked. If a F2P player can have the exact same gaming experience I can for a fraction of the price, naturally I'm going to question the value of my subscription. On top of that, a store or CM or whatever is introduced to milk money out of the F2P players in terms of unlocks/gear/whatever. The problem people have is when the game becomes orientated around the store, leaving subs relatively unrewarded. What new "free" content are they getting that they would in a Sub only model, for example?

 

I'm not particularly complaining, I think TOR is one of the better hybrid models I've seen (I've hardly seen them all though) but to discount anyone who has valid complaints as "entitled" or "greedy" is simplistic and blind.

 

Speaking of "dismissive", the majority of complaints I've seen about the F2P model basically boil down to "freepers are bad because they are freepers".

 

I find validity isn't often the concern, but rather toxicity.

 

If I find one thing somewhat repulsive about the hybrid model, it's not about whether or not everyone gets their fair shake, but more that it creates an imaginary division in the community, and people do so love taking sides and vilifying the other.

 

But then again, that's less of a fault of the model and more the fault of the way people behave in it.

[kirorx]

The hate and expectations come from a couple things

 

1) It's starwars. Fans are a tough crowd to please

 

2) This game is so strong on both fronts. The game play is incredible, The characters look great and then storylines are awesome. Yet in the areas that the game falls short are very short, no chat bubbles tons of loading screens, lack of a real space game and no real reason to travel the awesome looking galaxy after max level,

 

If this game was bad nobody would play.

This game is a ton of fun but still missing a few aspects that other games have.

[ApostleThirst]

I

I'm not particularly complaining, I think TOR is one of the better hybrid models I've seen (I've hardly seen them all though) but to discount anyone who has valid complaints as "entitled" or "greedy" is simplistic and blind.

 

Thank you so much for this post. It is rational, addresses both sides of the issue, and short enough to read

 

I do agree that Bioware should spend more and put more effort into fixing bugs and coming out with new content... but I also don't think they should be discounted for what they have been doing. The major thing that springs to mind is the new public test server and the Czerka model being put out. Have they gotten nearly as much discussion or opinions as either Treek or the appreciation gift, let alone combined? No, because people approve of it, and so it is quickly forgotten. Let's not forget the semi-recent Nightmare Mode ops for additional endgame content.

 

People should object to things they don't like... but they should also appreciate how much Bioware has done and is doing. That's all I'm trying to say - 1) speaking out against something is good, but it should be reasonable, and 2) the good things should be healthily acknowledged too.

[Inflicktion]

Comparing Halo to any MMO is just laughable and throws the whole premise of the post off, but yeah I agree to an extent. But to say long-time subscribers don't deserve to be appreciated and should just sit here with a smile on their face no matter what is just as dumb imo. You aren't helping anyone by blindly defending the game for 12 hours a day on the forums. The past week has been what it is, but it is time to move on. BW knows where the community stands on the matter. Players, and especially subscribers, have every right to voice their opinions no matter how absurd they may seem.

 

Ironically you're just contributing to the problem with another repeat thread.

[Nickious]

Says the guy who wants to bypass all the levels right to 55 and skip the entire story-line for CC. EA loves you dearly.

 

I'm pretty sure he's never asked for such a thing, all the posts i've seen were posted were about the legacy level content being bypass, which are hardly what iI call significant.

 

Is there a reason you care? Is it affecting your experience? I'm glad he's putting more money into this game that I enjoy so people like me who only pay the monthly fee won't feel the game will fall part if I don't put more into it.

[recsa]

So, here we are, playing a MMO. Star Wars, the Old Republic, actually. It's actually free to play, but we subscribed, because we want full access to the game, right?

 

mmm let me explain it to you:

 

I say 2 is 1, period.

 

Now to the point, 2 x 3 = 3, i think i cant be wrong here, also it amuses me people that keeps saying 2 x 3 = 6, they just dont get it, 2 x 3 is NOT 3 + 3 NOT it is 2 + 2 + 2. its just 3 or 1 + 1 + 1 if you feel like it, but never 6. Come one, ppl, get over it.

 

 

PD: You see what i did here? same think you did comparing SWTOR to KOTOR, HALO, ME, ... if you want to make comparissions (i would not advice you to do it), campare SWTOR to any other AAA MMORPG since thats how BW classified his own game long ago.

[GhostShaman]

The playerbase is only partially responsible for having unrealistic expectations. The marketing and community interaction promised a lot that it didn't deliver (and still continues to).

 

I think the 1-50 journey and the "out of the box" game itself is worth the price of the game and maybe a month or two's subscription and is a very good product and deserves a degree of praise. But anything more than that and you're hitting generic MMO content but with lightsabers territory.

 

And this is why subs are getting mad about everything being put into the CM for a cash grab. You said in another thread that you did not like to do the same thing over and over again. Well this is why. Instead of actual game development they are shoving everything into the CM. If you honestly think that all this huff is over treek you're mistaken. Treek will come and go and then what? Then more stuff that will be added into the CM. All the mounts could have been unique crafting experiences, quests, and added to the game, but no its the cash grab. Treek is an example content that could have been added to the game, but no...cash grab, and not to mentioned they said that no story or content would EVER be in the CM, and look what that did...Treek. When does it end? The wookie life day crap they put in the CM, "was" a planned event but instead, it became a for a limited time only CM purchase. This is why subscribers are getting upset. You said it yourself you dont see the value in subscribing to the game, and this is the exact reason why.

[gorstram]

Subs are still playing the same game we've had since launch. New features of the game require the usage of cartel coins, and instead of allowing subs to use these for ingame credits, they want us to use our cartel coin stipends, which they keep reminding us is "Free." It's not free, those coins represent the lost value of our sub, and it isn't even adjusted for inflation.