So we had this SWTOR conversation in Guild last night

[ChrisMattar]

We were discussing the state of the game, MMOs in general and where SWTOR was headed.

Most of our opinions are echoed in the article linked. Hopefully Bioware can steer clear of repetitiveness?

i.e. recycled Ops, over and over with +3 stat gear each time etc.

http://www.pcgamesn.com/wow/former-blizzard-man-world-warcraft-i-think-we-killed-genre

 

Can the formula be changed for the better?

Edited July 2, 2013 by ChrisMattar

[Truami]

i.e. recycled Ops, over and over with +3 stat gear each time etc.

 

My personal disagreement is the repetitive looks. PVP armor looks exactly the same as PVE armor. Kell Dragon Armor looks exactly the same as Underworld armor except it has animations.

Edited July 2, 2013 by Truami

[Ayelinna]

Interesting read.

[Repman]

I died inside a little when MMO's went the direction of glorified fashion shows

[Tachenko_Yuri]

I died inside a little when MMO's went the direction of glorified fashion shows

 

It was a choice of either this, or a spam of DLCs, or 75 gear for sale in the CM..

 

Fashion shows beats pay 2 play more and most definetly beats pay 2 win, at least in my book.

[Zeppelin]

A good article and pretty much spot on. But really, this is just a problem with theme park MMOs. An open sand-boxed MMO people can play for YEARS because players create their own content.

 

I think this is a problem with most RPGs honestly. People burn through RPGs to see the end and to have the sense of accomplishment that I "beat" the game. People do that now, even with no one watching. In MMOs, you actually see other people's accomplishments and many people feel like unless they're also beating the game as fast, then they are not "winning".

[TUXs]

Nah, Blizzard opened a portal to "MMOs" and I'm thrilled they did. If players want a traditional MMO, it'll pop up. The problem Blizzard created was that every developer since W0W, is trying to mimic their success. Developers/Investors don't want DAoC results - they want a game that makes Blizzard type $. This has very little to do with the type of game W0W is and everything to do with what has saturated the market since its launch.

[TheOneWag]

MMOs are about money. Gaming is about money. Everything else is secondary. If a game sells, it is good, no matter what anyone says. End of story.

 

Kotick takes dumps in golden toilets filled with Cristal champagne, then wipes his *** with hundred dollar bills because he puts out a new COD every year along with 4 DLC. Meanwhile everyone else goes to their poverty-tier jobs and is trying to make it to the supermarket to buy half priced expired meat with the coupon they clipped out of a newspaper they found on the ground.

 

Games in general have had this direction for over a decade and it is the way the medium has evolved away from a niche / artform and into something much more heavily hinged on investment and profit margins. The more computer and video technology grew, the more space grew for video games to move into. Once it got big enough, people with real money saw room to do what they do best: make more money.

 

All you are witnessing is their influence. Understand this and accept it. Money runs the game. Money runs the world.

[JimG]

They didn't create end-game obsessed power-levelers.....some people are just like that because that's their personality - impatient, A.D.D., instant gratification

[Quraswren]

MMOs are about money. Gaming is about money. Everything else is secondary. If a game sells, it is good, no matter what anyone says. End of story.

 

Kotick takes dumps in golden toilets filled with Cristal champagne, then wipes his *** with hundred dollar bills because he puts out a new COD every year along with 4 DLC. Meanwhile everyone else goes to their poverty-tier jobs and is trying to make it to the supermarket to buy half priced expired meat with the coupon they clipped out of a newspaper they found on the ground.

 

Games in general have had this direction for over a decade and it is the way the medium has evolved away from a niche / artform and into something much more heavily hinged on investment and profit margins. The more computer and video technology grew, the more space grew for video games to move into. Once it got big enough, people with real money saw room to do what they do best: make more money.

 

All you are witnessing is their influence. Understand this and accept it. Money runs the game. Money runs the world.

 

Pretty much my exact same feelings.

 

While I do hate to use blizzard as an example I feel I must.

 

At one point blizzard made money off their games cause they were really good. Gamers bought them knowing the game would first and foremost be excellent in most every way a game could be.

 

Currently that is no longer in their ability to do. They no longer make great games that make money on their own merit. Blizzard makes money cause they once made great games and people are now hooked on the old idea that they will one day get back to that great game they used to get from blizzard. Sadly, it wont ever happen cause business got in the way too much. It's now business first, game second.

 

It's all business now. The fundamental love of creating a game and gaming is really disappearing in the business and the higher you go up the corporate ladder, the more invisible the game becomes. Very visible love of the games at the bottom, damn near nothing at the top.

 

Replaced by "how do we get the most money with as little effort as possible from this." I use D3 as an example of that as well. Another game from blizzard. Created as a band-aide to limit WOW number losses, a long term cash flow with the RMAH and the game itself - bargain bin at best full of bugs, terrible launch, constant online only to limit hackers yet had one of the largest hacking bugs known to gaming. Yet selling itself off it's past iteration only, not cause it's a good game.

 

Opinions are opinions and that was more than 2 cents worth.

Edited July 2, 2013 by Quraswren

[Pirana]

MMOs are about money. Gaming is about money. Everything else is secondary. If a game sells, it is good, no matter what anyone says. End of story.

 

 

All you are witnessing is their influence. Understand this and accept it. Money runs the game. Money runs the world.

 

 

Pretty much nails it.

[uziforyou]

Nah, Blizzard opened a portal to "MMOs" and I'm thrilled they did. If players want a traditional MMO, it'll pop up. The problem Blizzard created was that every developer since W0W, is trying to mimic their success. Developers/Investors don't want DAoC results - they want a game that makes Blizzard type $. This has very little to do with the type of game W0W is and everything to do with what has saturated the market since its launch.

 

Well said and spot on.

[Tyrloch]

Ir works both ways. Most MMO players cut their teeth on WoW and WoW-like games. So, that is what they/we expect. Notice in any games forums, the loudest QQ is about what this game doesn't have that WoW does, or anything different than what they are used to with other WoW-like games. WoW had LFD, so people whined until every game had it. WoW has massive end game raids, so every game must have it or pay the price.

 

WoW set the expectation that leveling content is nothing more than crap to burn through as quickly as possible to get the the real game... end game. The Game (MMOs) doesn't start until level cap, you level characters as fast as possible to get to the real game. People now have the expectation that is how MMOs are run, and anyone who tries to change that paradigm will be buried in QQ form those that are accustomed to that way of playing.

 

People will quit because this isn't WoW with Lightsabres or WoW with anime icons (Tera) or WoW in an apocolyptic world with massive zone events (Rift). Every game since WoW started has been compared to WoW by its players and critisized where it was different.

 

I started with City of Heroes/Villains (CoX). Ok, I actually played Ragnarok Online for a month or so before that, but that doesn't really count.

 

When WoW refugees would come to CoX and complain there wasn't enough endgame, we would explain the game starts at lvl 1 not level cap. The leveling experience IS the game. There is content at cap if you want to keep playing, but it isn't the focus of the game or community. You can race to level cap if you want, but you will be disappointed because you skipped the best part of the game.

 

When I got into this game I thought it was going to be the same, and repeated the CoX explanation. The game starts at 1 not 50, the leveling experience IS the game. Unfortunately expectations set by WoW forced this game to become more WoW-like. all developer time is spent on end game, not fixing or improving the leveling experience.

 

Now we have double xp weekends to help get you to level cap even faster, further trivializing the leveling experience.

 

I'd like them to spend some time on creating more leveling paths and more planets to level on. I realize the class stories are on specific planets, but wouldn't it be fun and different that you weren't forced to do the non class quests on any planet, you could choose to do them on other planets.

[chuixupu]

You know I've played too much WoW when the first thing I think is "that picture of Worgen is from Friends and Family Alpha".

 

I kind of agree with the article and I do tire of the MMO treadmill to endgame. The thing that actually pulled me away from WoW and into SWTOR is how much I enjoyed the class stories. For the first time in a while, I was totally enjoying the journey. However, after you finish all that, it kind of goes back to the same problem. And I do enjoy end game, since I'm not super hard core, we haven't completed all of the content yet.

 

The same thing happens with games that happens with any other pop culture trends. They may start out organically, but eventually someone will find a way to bottle it up and sell it back for the masses. Once that happens, it's hard to ever go back to the way it was.

[ImpactHound]

Replaced by "how do we get the most money with as little effort as possible from this." I use D3 as an example of that as well. Another game from blizzard. Created as a band-aide to limit WOW number losses, a long term cash flow with the RMAH and the game itself - bargain bin at best full of bugs, terrible launch, constant online only to limit hackers yet had one of the largest hacking bugs known to gaming. Yet selling itself off it's past iteration only, not cause it's a good game.

 

Opinions are opinions and that was more than 2 cents worth.

 

D3 is actually still attracting a lot of new players consistently a year after release. While the 14 million box sales is inflated partly by the WoW sub tie-in, it's still a huge commercial success and the fact that they keep patching and trying to improve on an online game with no sub is a sign that they actually care about improving it based on player feedback.

 

D3's biggest problem is people confusing it with an MMO, and the inescapable comparisons to gameplay in a post MMO world. Clicky adventure grinds were a solid way to waste hours in 2000, but now that people have ground even harder on most modern MMOs, it's hard for a game like that to remain relevant in people's minds. POE and Marvel Heroes are still niche titles, and the entire genre is fading into obscurity along with the point-and-click adventures and side-scrolling shooters. They'll always have fans, but never the same mass appeal.

[Quraswren]

D3 is actually still attracting a lot of new players consistently a year after release. While the 14 million box sales is inflated partly by the WoW sub tie-in, it's still a huge commercial success and the fact that they keep patching and trying to improve on an online game with no sub is a sign that they actually care about improving it based on player feedback.

 

Well sure there going to continue doing what they can. The RMAH demands it. Otherwise, there is no cash influx and thats whats driving that game - not story, not game play and not itemized gear drops. Even blizzard said as much as the game is designed around the RMAH. It makes sense to not kill the cash stream but the game itself isn't that great. The prospect of money is it's driving force, even for players at this point.

 

D3's biggest problem is people confusing it with an MMO, and the inescapable comparisons to gameplay in a post MMO world. Clicky adventure grinds were a solid way to waste hours in 2000, but now that people have ground even harder on most modern MMOs, it's hard for a game like that to remain relevant in people's minds. POE and Marvel Heroes are still niche titles, and the entire genre is fading into obscurity along with the point-and-click adventures and side-scrolling shooters. They'll always have fans, but never the same mass appeal.

 

I disagree with that as it's biggest problem, what you say is a problem for sure but for me, it's biggest problem is it went backwards in design from D2 in how gear is presented to design around the RMAH.

 

Again, business success based only on how much money but a sacrifice for a good game.

 

IT was all about the money, not the game.

[Arkerus]

So here's my take on this whole thing...

 

Different markets for different people...and the problems that creates for the more intensive, hardcore gamer.

 

First, even though I am a GLORIOUS defender of SWTOR the genre as a whole has become very "shallow" in terms of gameplay and complexity. So this is not about SWTOR but instead about MMOs. It doesn't take a brain surgeon to realize that the more complex your game is (GENERALLY SPEAKING, I'll come back to this), the less likely it is to have "mass appeal". Mass appeal means money, money means more development, more development means more money, etc. More people are employed and generally things are better. WoW, from day 1, was set to be an appealing game for Blizzard's core audience. Soon after release they realized that since they made questing and gaming so easy (like they always do) that suddenly MORE people were playing their game. Maybe only 1% actually raided but a million other people were playing. Blizzard, by their own admission, hit a homerun on complete accident because their game was accessible and complex at the same time. Where is WoW today? Arguable WAY too easy and not nearly rewarding enough...but they have the players so moving on...

 

The problem lies in exactly what I said above. If you, a developer, set out to create a complex and deeply satisfying game for the sub culture that will BUY your game you have to understand its not going to sell millions or have millions of subscribers (unless you are the accident known as WoW). You will have to work with the funds that you can generate and generally support the game based on sub optimal profits. AND THIS IS PERFECTLY FINE. I have no problems with ANY company making a game for a specific culture or fanbase withing the gaming community. This is a specific marketing strategy and it works! Many games find great success by keeping their cost down but their fanbase steady. Will they ever have two million players? Probably not but the game is a success in its own right.

 

So what happens when companies set out to produce the MOST profitable game possible? Risk goes right out the window. You won't see complex crafting. That chases off the more casual gamer. You won't see extremely difficult combat. That chases off the people in it for the story and the "fun" of it. You won't see complex systems that "punish" the gamer because if there is one thing that kills gaming its when the player is looking for an excuse to leave and the final straw is usually when the game punishes the player for playing.

 

All the big name MMOs (like SWTOR) are going to be largely risk averse because they want mass appeal. Think about this: If you logged into SWTOR with no armor, no idea what to do and mobs that could one shot you then people would quit immediately (not later). Maybe SWTOR would be fun for the 100,000 people that figured out the crafting and the system but for everyone else that tried it, it wasn't any fun. Simply paying money monthly to log into a game isn't a viable system any more because millions of poeple want to try MMOs but they don't want the commitment because...WHAT IF THEY DON'T LIKE IT.

 

This new model sucks for the player who wants gaming to be a little deeper. It sucks for the player who wants to put some more thought into their daily routine. It sucks for the player who wants to "break" the system and figure things out on their own. Compare Torchlight 2 to Diablo 3. Torchlight 2 gives the player a wide berth of choice and its rewarding! Torchlight 2 is exponentially more complex that Diablo 3 but it didn't sell as well. Its a game made for a deeper experience. Its an awesome game and I applaud the TL team for taking that risk. It means there IS a culture of gamer out there who wants more in their game. They want that experience and they want to dive in.

 

What happens now? I think its safe to say that the big development houses will always produce safe products. They will be pretty, have incredible backing and big names. They will always shoot for max return on investment so their systems will never be complicated. Maybe complex to a point, but never complicated and cumbersome. This means the door is wide open for deeper, more rewarding games. There is a whole slew of gamers ready to jump in and embrace new ideas and systems. But don't forget, there are a million other people who DON'T want complex and "deep" games. They want to run their raid, or craft some simple objects or just have fun...and thats ok! I love SWTOR because I can log in and kill 10 bosses in one evening. I think that's awesome but for some its not.

 

I am a Firefall founder. I see what they are doing. They make a good point. The right game at the right time is ready to pick up those gamers looking for a more complex but engaging experience. I agree. The time is right and the market is big enough. We can have both. There is no need to argue about what is better. If you want to support a product put your money where your mouth is but don't make fun of someone because they don't want to die trying to farm a rare animal that only appears once a month. And vice versa of course. If someone wants to keep it simple, more power to them. Let a person play what they want.

 

TLDR: Let the market drive a resurgence in complex gaming but make no mistake, casual is here to stay.

Edited July 2, 2013 by Arkerus

[ImpactHound]

Well sure there going to continue doing what they can. The RMAH demands it. Otherwise, there is no cash influx and thats whats driving that game - not story, not game play and not itemized gear drops. Even blizzard said as much as the game is designed around the RMAH. It makes sense to not kill the cash stream but the game itself isn't that great. The prospect of money is it's driving force, even for players at this point.

 

 

 

 

I'll actually argue that gameplay is driving the game; I still see consistently different builds played by the general population, despite what the fansites would have you believe about optimal builds. Three of my RL friends play or have played wizards, and they all used completely different movesets wether together or apart. I think that's one of the better features to have come out of the game is the wide variety of playstyles that it nurtured.

 

The story is certainly garbage, but then again the story has always been in the manual/books and not the game. Diablo reincarnating should have been no surprise when he did it twice in 1 and came back in 2. There were a lot of people who got bent out of shape on how different 2 was to 1 when it released, but that all blew over eventually

[Beltane]

I agree that MMO gaming has become a leveling treadmill with little in the way of unique customization or immersive worlds.

 

I know everyone and their mom hates SWG on this forum but I'm gonna use it as an example. It was the first MMO I played and the reason it felt like a living, breathing world wasn't because of NPCs or environments, but because enough freedom was given to the players to create a living and breathing world. Cities, shops, economies, needing to form groups to go do content aside from instances and warzones, etc etc.

 

I'm not expecting TOR to be SWG, but I do find it incredibly sad that no modern MMO offers the same level of customization and freedom that a 10 year old dead game did. People built massive, unique things in SWG and there were huge server events. Even the sandboxy ones like Repopulation are still limited by comparison, and an event in TOR consists of a bunch of players standing around in a static environment with zero change from anything.

 

So, while I understand the reason the WoW-style MMO is so profitable--and I even enjoy that sort of MMO for what it is--it doesn't stop me from missing what once was and will never be again.

 

I do not feel like I own a little piece of TOR's game world. In SWG, I felt like I did. I actually created things in that game. In TOR, I just level and repeat the same endgame content and can never actually achieve anything unique.

Edited July 2, 2013 by Beltane

[JacenHallis]

The former Blizzard guy is a bit of an egotist, isn't he? That whole "must get to endgame" mindset didn't start with WoW. It didn't even really get bigger with WoW, at least when measured as a proportion of the audience. That mindset was alive and well in EQ, too. People would constantly ask for the best places to grind for xp. Those places would constantly be busy, with people waiting in lines to take up the camps. The Bazaar (and the Greater Faydark and EC tunnel before it) was constantly filled with fungi tunics and centi longswords and other non-soulbound equipment that low-levels could use to make leveling and surviving much easier. Wizards and Druids were constantly on the lookout for places to quad kite for fast experience and some cash. Hell. A couple of WoW's original designers was one of the elitist raid guild leaders from EQ.

 

It's just part of the gamer mindset. Has it been exacerbated by WoW? Maybe. Did WoW make it more visible? Certainly. But it was hardly the cause. The problem comes when people don't realize that "accessibility" and "challenge" are not mutually exclusive terms.

Edited July 2, 2013 by JacenHallis

[Alphasgimaone]

I died inside a little when MMO's went the direction of glorified fashion shows

You do realize that role playing is, in its essence, a glorified fashion show. It's been this way for thousands of years.

[Andryah]

We were discussing the state of the game, MMOs in general and where SWTOR was headed.

Most of our opinions are echoed in the article linked. Hopefully Bioware can steer clear of repetitiveness?

i.e. recycled Ops, over and over with +3 stat gear each time etc.

http://www.pcgamesn.com/wow/former-blizzard-man-world-warcraft-i-think-we-killed-genre

 

Can the formula be changed for the better?

 

I agree with the article to a certain point.

 

But the effect in the genre is symbiotic between company and players. Blizzard expanded the total available market. It created a market base that never existed before.

 

But that market also has expectations. The older segment of the player base... expectations not being met. Power players in the market (old school or new school) expectations not being met. But...the large and casual, likes it the way it is segment of the market... still largely having expectations met.

 

All Blizzard did was expand the market base. They did this by making MMOs accessible. But actually, it's a good thing IMO. This created room for a lot more MMOs, particularly those that can effectively focus on niche players. The fact that the market is not meeting the needs of some niches is not Blizzards fault, nor any MMO companies fault really. Why? Because the niche players have gotten more demanding. PvPers want better PvP for their dollar. Raiders want better raiding for their dollar. etc. etc. But the mainstream of the market continues to like to play less precise less compelling less challenging MMO content.

Edited July 2, 2013 by Andryah

[SwoopingLion]

The same thing happens with games that happens with any other pop culture trends. They may start out organically, but eventually someone will find a way to bottle it up and sell it back for the masses. Once that happens, it's hard to ever go back to the way it was.

 

This.

Edited July 2, 2013 by SwoopingLion

[TUXs]

I agree with the article to a certain point.

 

But the effect in the genre is symbiotic between company and players. Blizzard expanded the total available market. It created a market base that never existed before.

 

But that market also has expectations. The older segment of the player base... expectations not being met. Power players in the market (old school or new school) expectations not being met. But...the large and casual, likes it the way it is segment of the market... still largely having expectations met.

 

All Blizzard did was expand the market base. They did this by making MMOs accessible. But actually, it's a good thing IMO. This created room for a lot more MMOs, particularly those that can effectively focus on niche players. The fact that the market is not meeting the needs of some niches is not Blizzards fault, nor any MMO companies fault really. Why? Because the niche players have gotten more demanding. PvPers want better PvP for their dollar. Raiders want better raiding for their dollar. etc. etc. But the mainstream of the market continues to like to play less precise less compelling less challenging MMO content.

 

I'd have to agree with this assessment.

[branmakmuffin]

I'll play TOR (and other MMOs) as long as they are fun. Once they cease to be fun, I could not care less what happens to them. No one would.

 

The death of MMOs (assuming that's true): tempest in a teacup, first world problem, pick your cliche. Who cares? We'll all find other things to do with our leisure time and money.

Edited July 2, 2013 by branmakmuffin