You don't NEED dual spec, why it will hurt this game more than benefit it

[TradewindNQ]

Dual Spec is and was only ever a way to put a clamp on the monetary cash sink that is respec'ing. It is nice however to have a PvE and a PvP spec, even though in the case of ToR thus far there is only subtle differences in talents.

[Moikko]

Dual spec is just stupid and immersion breaker!

Most ppl go for DPS, because they just wanna be the one killing all the mobs.

Ppl playing only Tank and Healers should be given a free month of playing time once every year, because DPS players doesn't know how much work is needed to hold the aggro and heal the DPS who is running around like crazy and then when they die they are like "Healer stop slacking".

Dual spec is just for ppl who are lazy and ignorant to game designers. They will bring it to game if every lazy ppl cries at the forum that it's needed.

So get your lazy brains moving and level up an alt if u see that there is ppl needing one.

Now i can see alot of ppl crying out for a tank or healer.

 

-Imperial Agent Operative (healer spec) aka me

 

ps. And i know there is really good DPS players who can tank and heal when needed. So big hand to you guys

[Toraxa]

Yes, we do NEED dual specs, and we need them BECAUSE of the game.

 

The game is designed to have you quest, alternating regularly between solo content and group content. The game is DESIGNED to require you do both. Yet the specs are NOT designed to support both. The only people who don't need dual specs are the ones who only play DPS roles, and thus are fine in the same spec for both.

 

For those of us healing, and to a lesser extent tanking, we NEED to be in our respective specs for group content. That means every time a heroic quest, a flashpoint, a world boss, etc comes up, I NEED to be in my sawbones spec to heal. However, the times in between are tough when I can't do any damage.

 

It may be different if you're playing some other class, but for me, my skills do fairly terrible damage without specialization. Since I'm a scoundrel specced to sawbones, my quick shot does about as much damage as just using my normal shot, so I never use it. I let Corso tank, I heal him, and I toss in some blaster fire. Normal mobs go down easy, but elite and boss level stuff can take five or more minutes to kill.

 

The other thing you seem to miss, is that this isn't WoW. People can use dual spec in WoW as things like Paladin or Druids to play both tank and healer with the same character. This is not possible in SW:TOR. No AC can be both. DPS is not a role. DPS is something everyone should be capable of. As a scoundrel, I am a healer who has a dps spec for questing. My Trooper, who will be a Vanguard, is simply a tank who has a dps spec for questing.

 

Why should I be punished, either by having to quest slowly and painfully, or having to pay thousands of credits for a respec every 20 minutes, because I decided to do a role that's a little more difficult for mainstream play? Why should you, as a dps spec, get to be special and never have to experience any difficulty or cost in doing anything you desire?

 

Finally, if being able to change what you do breaks your immersion, then you're not very good at using your imagination. What's so crazy about the idea that I can't keep a hold of both my healing and diagnostic equipment used for acting as a medic, and my special weaponry, at the same time? I've got my medical equipment out to support you, and then when we part ways I pack it up in my bag and pull out my grenades, knives, etc. This doesn't break immersion at all, you just choose not to think about it properly. YOU are the one looking at things as gameplay mechanics rather than story elements.

 

Dual spec is simply a quality of life thing. It has nothing to do with your immersion, and it certainly doesn't break the game. All it does is allow those of us who can't function all of the time in one spec to not have to.

[Nicarras]

Dual spec should be implemented, also a summoning system for group members. Waiting 15 minutes for people to arrive at an instance is things we did 5 years ago and don't add anything to the game. Dual Spec would allow people to explore the other options their class has instead of rolling clones of their class just to check them out.

[Avrose]

@ OP

 

If Bioware cared about making the world immerisive they would have copied SWG and not WoW.

 

They copied EVERYTHING from wow. They are going for WoW's same vibe. As such, why would they try and blatantly lie and tell us this game doesnt need dual spec/instant ports and isn't about end game gear?

 

Again...they would have improved upon SWG if your post had any sort of merit...it doesn't.

 

WoW copied everything from Everquest which copies everything from dark age of Camolot which was made by a Bioware team.

 

The more you know *little star goes by*☆彡

Edited December 21, 2011 by Avrose

[J_Five]

It is not a necessity .... games got along fine without it until WoW did it. Now everyone thinks it's a must have because it makes things easier.

 

Not going to lie, it's a nice feature, but DEFINITELY not a necessity ... Kids nowadays, sheesh

 

What do you mean by "Games got along fine" without it? Do you mean those games continued to exist because people didn't quit? Does that mean that the players were happy about it???

 

I started my raiding days back in EQ in 1999. It was ALWAYS a problem to find the right amount of tanks and healers. And we ALWAYS had to have people sit out or replace them in order to fulfill roles so the content could be accomplished. We lost several members, and had to cancel several nights of scheduled game play because of this issue. We continued to play because we enjoyed the game, but it doesn't change how frustrating and problematic the issue was, an issue which has absolutely nothing to do with skill.

 

You should be able to play the game with your group, your team. If someone can't make it, and we need a critical role filled, why should I trust that to some chump I've never played with before, possibly ruining our entire scheduled gaming night because of it?

 

I get the feeling many of the people complaining about dual spec have never really encountered end game raiding save for maybe some pick up groups in WoW after the content has already been surpassed.

 

I want to play the game as a team, as our guild. Why should you care if someone could fill two roles? What part of the game does that really ruin for you?

 

I'm also not a child.

Edited December 21, 2011 by J_Five

[iinsom]

everquest was out before daoc...

[Nocturneus]

Great post and I completely agree with this. Dual spec is for lazy people who don't want to enjoy this game for what it is.

 

QFT completely agree with the OP

 

*cue blizzard fanboy RAGE*

[DemonSoliloquy]

BioWare clearly wants players to level up multiple classes to enjoy their diverse stories. What's the point if you can just respec to a different role? Many people would not level up a second class, muich to the detriment of BioWare's work on the story of every class (furthermore I can guarantee they would be missing out on some pretty epic stories )."

 

Are you kidding me?

Level up a second class just to get different talent trees?

Play the same story AGAIN?

This is clearly just an instance of unnecessary work-arounds.

 

"I'd also like to remind people of the days before Dual Spec in WoW, was it really so bad? The answer is clearly NO. People either A: respeced completely and had to learn from the ground up and PAY the price for doing so, or B: rerolled and leveled up a second class. Both of these benefited Blizzard, it made a gold sink and got players through leveling content they had not seen before."

 

It was bad.

Paying gold for every respec hurt your wallet which was already going on empty due to dailies giving 9g each.

Second of all, nobody rerolled just to play a different spec. They would just man up and pay it, even though it hurt. Dual-spec facilitated the role change so there would be no more senseless spending and unnecessary trips back to cities.

 

Also, i don't get your argument about "learning the class from the ground up". This also applies to dual-spec. Do you think that once you pick your second skill tree, you instantly become a master at it?

 

"Why is this good for the player? It makes you value the time you spend more, and especially your character and spec in the first place! For PvP players this reduces the "FoTM" problem drastically by making people learn to truly choose the role and spec they want from the get go and learn to ride out any discrepancies in patch "nerfs" or "buffs"."

 

What? I'd rather spend gold than waste a month leveling a new class. And no, it would not fix the FOTM problem, people would still respec to it instead of "Sticking with one role and learning".

 

As for those of you whose guilds will "force" you to change roles for hard core raiding, honestly I can tell you from personal experience if you aren't willing to take the time to simply level a character perhaps the hard-core raiding zone is not for you.Mmaybe if you don't want to take the time to re-roll you shouldn't be in that guild, I personally am leveling two classes for my raiding guild, and I am content in having to level them both up, that is the least of my troubles, sure it is a time-sink SORT OF, but BioWare has done an exceptional job here in making leveling enjoyable."

 

Yes, because you know, leveling is a tough challenge, and not more time-intensive than anything else.

Also, who are you to judge? I like challenges such as heroic raids but I don't like mindlessly grinding over easy content.

 

"Also if you don't enjoy the leveling you are in the wrong game "

Says who? I didn't read the disclaimer from BioWare saying that, I'm here for the end-game content.

 

"Overall Dual-spec and similar options people have been crying over won't help, just soothe a problem that's been the cause of many other player-driven issues, let people complain for awhile BioWare, they will learn to appreciate the decision you made. "

 

How will it not help the problem? Why should you stick to one style of playing when there are so many more to try out?

Not adding dual-spec will not help this game out one bit, there are no benefits whatsoever to it.

Edited December 21, 2011 by DemonSoliloquy

[TheRealAges]

I like dual spec and look forward to it's implementation. If laziness concerns you there are other activities you could pursue instead of gaming e.g. surgeon at an ER, or combat infantryman in the Marines. Or you could just not use dual spec when it is implemented.

[DemonicFerret]

So, I at least understand the viewpoint that people should be dedicated to tanking/healing/dpsing and have to roll new characters to explore one of the other roles. I don't agree, but that makes sense.

 

But what about PVE/PVP? Are you really saying that people should need two characters in order to play effectively in both halves of the game?

[Zhit]

For LFD, dual spec, and insta-porting ruining WOW--things sure are chugging away well over there. I'm thinking the millions upon millions of players still enjoying WoW have a different opinion. Thankfully the developers are looking to attract a broader audience and have already indicated dual specs are coming to the game.

[Kanzer]

People seem to forget that Blizzard became the great company they are today by taking other people's good ideas and making them their own.

 

Dual Spec was a very good thing, and it'll come again, so...get over it.

[TiiRahnedancer]

If Bioware cared about making the world immerisive they would have copied SWG and not WoW.

 

I didn't find SWG to be immersive at all.

[pbrez]

No clue why you think dual spec led to lfd.

[AsinineTangent]

I'm glad they have already confirmed plans for dual-spec. As someone who plays a tank or healer in group content in every game it's something that makes my play experience a lot more enjoyable when I have to solo. Going to be great!

 

Of course you don't NEED it. Especially since you can already respec. But there are a lot of quality of life features that games have now that aren't necessary but I am certainly glad to have.

Edited December 21, 2011 by AsinineTangent

[Avrose]

everquest was out before daoc...

 

Who said it wasn't? I'm talking about where the train of most of the stolen ideas came from not in the order the games came out.

[SWImara]

Just so this is clear in advance, I am not a huge advocate of dual spec. I'd like to see it for the sake of PvP/PvE efficiency but ultimately if it doesn't show up its not the end of the world for me. That being said I disagree with a ton of what OP had to say.

 

• Immersion
  Honestly this is a personal issue. I understand that it may matter tons to you but it doesn't to everyone. I am a roleplayer, love the story etc of Star Wars but forcing system limitations or changes for the sake of immersion is folly imo.
   
  
• Leveling up multiple characters
  SWTOR has an amazing story and is one of the more story/rp focused games I've played in ages. I wholly intend to play alts in this game and look forward to their stories as well. However, there is nothing interesting about playing the same character class over again just to play an alternate role.
   
  
• Justification
  There are only two reasons I really am concerned about a dual spec option. The first is PvP, not all builds are equal, some talents are worthless in PvP or in PvE, a person shouldn't have to chose only one of these playstyles. The second is the archetypal issue of playing a healer/tank. I genuinely enjoy playing these roles to help develop/support my guild, playing either of them in PUGs on the other hand is quite often miserable. Either of these roles requires a certain degree of group support and competence that sometimes (not always) can be lacking in PUGs, yet these roles are the most likely for DPS players to complain about when something goes wrong.

[Zhit]

The argument that players should level new toons instead of dual speccing is actually fairly valid for TOR. Since there is no end game--what else are you going to do at 50? Might as well rinse, repeat ad nasuem until you quit. If you could dual spec--folks might actually expect to have challenging end game content to keep them and their friends busy. TOR is all about the solo story--get with the program people.

[Airinya]

I completely agree. I think that my fiancee, who has limited playing time available, should have to level two characters so she can decide whether to heal or damage an instance. Or, she should be forced to farm incredible amounts of money to keep swapping back and forth.

 

Either way, giving a player the choice on how they want to play is pretty much proven to be a bad thing. Right?

 

This is such a moot point. Not all games are meant to be played by every single type of player. MMOs are, and in my opinion should remain, a fairly time intensive endeavor. I SUCK at first-person shooters. What's my solution? I don't play them because I know I perform poorly at them! If you don't have time time to put into a game/MMO then don't do it!

[Hautaaja]

Great post, absolutely agree. Playing WoW from the pre-launch betas all the way to the end of Lich King, Dual spec was one of the things that made me hate WoW, it truly broke immersion and just made the game feel even more like a dumbed down quest for epix. When I learned this game wouldn't have dual spec I was exhilarated, now a day after launch I'm reading that it's gonna be patched in. Too bad it's going down this road, can't see myself enjoying this game for too many months considering how easy it's been so far any way.

[DemonSoliloquy]

The argument that players should level new toons instead of dual speccing is actually fairly valid for TOR. Since there is no end game--what else are you going to do at 50? Might as well rinse, repeat ad nasuem until you quit. If you could dual spec--folks might actually expect to have challenging end game content to keep them and their friends busy. TOR is all about the solo story--get with the program people.

 

That is laughable.

Leveling is already quick as it is, with a lot of people lvl30+.

It doesn't feel as it's slowing down. At this rate, most people will be lvl50 in 2 weeks or so.

You think people will feel good knowing that all the hard work is for naught? There is no end-game content, lvl50 and done?

The game would die out extremely quick, and BioWare does not want that. They want to make a successful MMORPG, and they will not do that by making you grind the same leveling places over and over again, just with a different class quest [ which only accounts for one out of your ~10 quests per zone at any given time].

 

TL:DR : This is an MMORPG. Empathis on MMO.

Edited December 21, 2011 by DemonSoliloquy

[Calsidian]

Dual spec was patched into WoW, that in turn led to horrible implementations such as LFD and insta-port to dungeons. Let me tell you why me and others are so blatantly opposed to this.

 

Statement of fact with no supporting evidence. Cause =/= effect. Statement rejected.

 

Convenience options such as this completely shattered immersion in WoW, that inturn led people only to care about gear and spec for PvP and raiding. When immersion is broken, nothing is left EXCEPT the "physical" reward. This is first and foremost a story-driven MMO, you cannot deny this, and part of being a story MMO is keeping players immersed, this entails working for things and making choices (sometimes difficult ones) which end up enchancing the experience rather than detracting from it.

 

Issue of immersion not relevant. Dual spec does not destroy immersion any more than respecing at a trainer would. In reality, it is more fitting for immersion as it could be explained as a character changing tactics on the fly to suite a specific situation. Skill trees are merely a focus within a class, afterall.

 

BioWare clearly wants players to level up multiple classes to enjoy their diverse stories. What's the point if you can just respec to a different role? Many people would not level up a second class, muich to the detriment of BioWare's work on the story of every class (furthermore I can guarantee they would be missing out on some pretty epic stories ).

 

Logical fallacy. If people want to experience another class for the story or a different play experience, they will do so regardless of dual spec because dual spec has no bearing whatsoever on the story. Very, very weak argument.

 

I'd also like to remind people of the days before Dual Spec in WoW, was it really so bad? The answer is clearly NO. People either A: respeced completely and had to learn from the ground up and PAY the price for doing so, or B: rerolled and leveled up a second class. Both of these benefited Blizzard, it made a gold sink and got players through leveling content they had not seen before.

 

I can do that too. The answer is clearly YES. It was inconvenient for the sake of inconvenience. If the ability to change your spec is in the game, then there is no good reason to make it punishing. It boggles my mind that someone would actually think that frustrating players into rolling another class is a positive thing. If someone wants to play another class they should do so because the class is fun and offers a different play experience, not because they are fed up with harsh restrictions on changing specs.

 

Why is this good for the player? It makes you value the time you spend more, and especially your character and spec in the first place! For PvP players this reduces the "FoTM" problem drastically by making people learn to truly choose the role and spec they want from the get go and learn to ride out any discrepancies in patch "nerfs" or "buffs".

 

No, it doesn't make you value the time more. This is such a ludicrous argument. This is like having your dog in the back yard, leashing it to a tree, then saying the dog is valuing its time more because it is not able to experience the whole yard.

 

As for those of you whose guilds will "force" you to change roles for hard core raiding, honestly I can tell you from personal experience if you aren't willing to take the time to simply level a character perhaps the hard-core raiding zone is not for you.Mmaybe if you don't want to take the time to re-roll you shouldn't be in that guild, I personally am leveling two classes for my raiding guild, and I am content in having to level them both up, that is the least of my troubles, sure it is a time-sink SORT OF, but BioWare has done an exceptional job here in making leveling enjoyable.

 

This doesn't even need a counter-argument as it's too absurd.

 

Also if you don't enjoy the leveling you are in the wrong game

 

I fail to see the point. Dual spec and leveling characters have nothing to do with each other.

 

Overall Dual-spec and similar options people have been crying over won't help, just soothe a problem that's been the cause of many other player-driven issues, let people complain for awhile BioWare, they will learn to appreciate the decision you made.

 

The decision Bioware made was to include dual spec shortly after launch. Perhaps you were misinformed.

[AsinineTangent]

That is laughable.

Leveling is already quick as it is, with a lot of people lvl30+.

It doesn't feel as it's slowing down. At this rate, most people will be lvl50 in 2 weeks or so.

You think people will feel good knowing that all the hard work is for naught? There is no end-game content, lvl50 and done?

The game would die out extremely quick, and BioWare does not want that. They want to make a successful MMORPG, and they will not do that by making you grind the same leveling places over and over again, just with a different class quest [ which only accounts for one out of your ~10 quests per zone at any given time].

 

He was mocking certain people in this thread.

[Tirshatha]

The argument that players should level new toons instead of dual speccing is actually fairly valid for TOR. Since there is no end game--what else are you going to do at 50? Might as well rinse, repeat ad nasuem until you quit. If you could dual spec--folks might actually expect to have challenging end game content to keep them and their friends busy. TOR is all about the solo story--get with the program people.

 

If Bioware is dumb enough to not implement end game content this game They'll be out of business within a year.

 

But take heart, Bioware is not that stupid and there will be end game content and thus no reason to re-roll outside of enjoying the great story elements each class has.