ShardTosk Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 (edited) My opinion in picture form: http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c205/Shaitan051/Deepusflowchart.png Edited January 30, 2012 by ShardTosk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrtauntaun Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 I would very much like a combat log. In the whirl of battle, a boss can sometimes hit me for a big blow that kills me, when I thought things were going along just fine. I'd like to know what they did so I can learn and correct for next time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hamsterkill Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 My opinion in picture form: http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c205/Shaitan051/Deepusflowchart.png I think your yes's and no's on the Recount side got a little mixed up based on the questions. I agree with you though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jakarai Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 What's funny is combat logs where in the early editions of the game in 09 but for some reason they took them out! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soulkan Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 What's funny is combat logs where in the early editions of the game in 09 but for some reason they took them out! They were removed to "hide" imbalances and other number related problems. Players having logs of things to post would not have been good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cancrizans Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 My opinion in picture form: http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c205/Shaitan051/Deepusflowchart.png HAHAHAHAHAHA wow that is hilarious. Might hurt a few butts with that though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lokai Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 Combat logs lead to damage meters Damage meters lead to gear score Gear score leads to elitism Elitism leads to being a douchbag to 90% of the community are these tools bad by themselves? not really but it is way people abused them, and used them that did. Example my guild always used damage meters to see where everyone stood we liked to know who was at the top! that said we didnt care if you didnt do wtfelite damage, as long as your contributing and we are downing bosses who cares who is #1? What generally happens with damage meters is people get to engrossed in meters, and addons that they stop paying attention to actual bosses themselves. Instead they stand in fire and expect to be healed because it " boosts my damage noob" as i was told before. Basically boils down to the people that use them and how they treat those they play with. These things do not make *****s out of people generally they were *****s to begin with =3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bersheli Posted January 31, 2012 Share Posted January 31, 2012 (edited) Combat logs lead to damage meters Damage meters lead to gear score Gear score leads to elitism Elitism leads to being a douchbag to 90% of the community =3 Yup, pretty much. Also kind of on the same token; the problem with damage meters is that they are damage meters. They don't take into account any crowd control or emergency heals or anything other than one stupid number. So we are one step closer (all too soon) to people giving up before they even try because of one "misplaced" talent point or wrong talent tree or weapon choice or whatever. We are closer to everyone running around doing absolutely nothing but trying to achieve the highest dps instead of watching out for their party members. Then when these same people don't understand why people have lower dps than them, or they simply give up before even trying, they whine that there are too many "bads" until BW takes this already easy game and makes it a complete faceroll. Then you are especially a "bad" for not caring only about dps and the one specific build, rotation, gear that gives you that extra 5 dps, because you are not causing wipes or deaths, but costing us our precious seconds of now completely monotonous and predictable combat. Oh and I wonder if all the super leet players in this game will also consistently forget to do things like turn on pet damage (companion damage?) before they go on a flaming tirade against kids. Edited January 31, 2012 by Bersheli Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dsapp Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 I think your yes's and no's on the Recount side got a little mixed up based on the questions. I agree with you though. No, it's right. You just have to read the phrasing of the questions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
switchCase Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 oh god (insert random rul0r game here) statskids win Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gohlar Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 There is a big difference between combat logs and in game damage meters. OP just seems desperate to claim some kind of victory or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatriciaHarlow Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 (edited) I'm all for combat logs. There are times I'd like to see *** just happened to me. (EDIT: Apparently WT(Fizzle) is censored. DPS Meters I'm not for so much. It's been pointed out plenty, but they do breed a sort of elitism. I prefer figuring things out versus being forced into the same build and same rotation as everyone in order to put out the DPS I'm 'supposed' to be. I played WOW for years with the out-of-the-box UI and loved it. As soon as I started using add-ons the fun level began to drop. Except Auctioneer. Man, could this game use an Auctioneer add-on, or just some GTN love! Forget the DPS meters lol And no, never been kicked from a group for playing poorly. Edited February 4, 2012 by PatriciaHarlow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terminova Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 (edited) Because people don't like to be reminded that they're only succeeding on the hard work of others? Because then the DPS decides to do as much damage as possible while pull all the threat and wiping the group. I've also seen people pulling as much DPS as they could FEEL BAD because they couldn't come close to what I put out tanking. There was NOTHING they could have done. Nothing, and yet they felt BAD because of the meters. I do not like them for those specific reasons: DPS races that wipe groups and people doing their outright best feeling like crap because someone else is doing more and they were doing good themselves. Oh and a third reason: people who kick someone because they weren't pulling some arbitrary number in DPS because everyone else was killing everything before they could do anything....in sub-level cap dungeons. Edited February 4, 2012 by terminova Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Navakai Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 Because then the DPS decides to do as much damage as possible while pull all the threat and wiping the group. I've also seen people pulling as much DPS as they could FEEL BAD because they couldn't come close to what I put out tanking. There was NOTHING they could have done. Nothing, and yet they felt BAD because of the meters. I do not like them for those specific reasons: DPS races that wipe groups and people doing their outright best feeling like crap because someone else is doing more and they were doing good themselves. Oh and a third reason: people who kick someone because they weren't pulling some arbitrary number in DPS because everyone else was killing everything before they could do anything....in sub-level cap dungeons. It would have been alot faster to say "Im a bad player, who fears being judged" You realize the 'real' players, are laughing at you right? Fact is, either SWTOR gets these tools, or it dies. You'll see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VenthiosLestaran Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 (edited) Man. You guys. This is a great thread to read when you need a good laugh. Every single person in this thread is forgetting the one overwhelming thing about SWTOR and end game hard core raiding. Nightmare mode is being completed by people with no metrics, and it's being said it's easily done. I don't think SWTOR is going to be the kind of end game scene WoW had. With fights people wiped on 100's of times like Nefarian 25m Hard Mode, or Ruby Sanctum HM. Even the "hard" stuff is easy, don't worry about it. Edited February 5, 2012 by VenthiosLestaran Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoxiousAlby Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 No problem with combat logs, but damage meters will create more problems in game than they will solve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirkgent Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 As I've perused through this thread, I did not see anyone bring this up (but maybe I missed it). The unfortunate reality is that if you are trying to progress through raids in this game, recount (or some facsimile thereof) BECOMES necessary. I blame the devs for this as they have basically copped out to the use of ENRAGE TIMERS for essentially every boss encounter. I personally view enrage timers as a lame, unoriginal way to end an encounter. It takes literally no thought, creativity or imagination to implement: if you can't kill boss X in Y minutes, then the boss will one-shot everybody. With that enrage timer mechanic in place, I would argue that measuring an individual's DPS output is very necessary. A given raid will continually wipe and wipe and wipe because one person isn't keeping up. The rest of the raid will be forced to suffer hours of frustration and stupid high repair bills because one person is not keeping up. What's worse is the individual in question will have NO IDEA THAT HE IS THE ******E. TLDR: Because of enrage timers on all bosses, serious raiders need recount in this game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sildanar Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 (edited) Please no dps meter, a partial combat log could be ok. Simply put and as can been seen from multiple replys in this thread, these things (while admitedly helpful), offer people the excuse to abuse others, for not using this or that spec, or this or that rotation because its "Moar dps you nub...". Even if its only a theoretical 1-2% your a nub if you dont. A log which showed you what dmg you or your party took and from what source would be acceptable to me, and would seem to offer quite a bit of the post combat analysis recquired by Operations guilds. But the only question that matters with DPS is.... is the boss dead?? The rest is epeenery masquerading as knowledge. ps: Just look at the amount of replys stating, if you dont want a dps/combat log your scared or that your epic nubness will be reveled, thats the repugnant attitude I have seen to often especially in wow with dps meter epeenery. Edited February 5, 2012 by Sildanar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Touchbass Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 All this tells me is Bioware didn't have time to put a feature in game, so when it's absence was noted people started yelling "Yeah Bioware gets me"! Good to see Bioware moving in a proper direction. Personally I don't really need meters or logs as it won't effect me personally but you can't have a serious end game without metrics to measure performance. They are also working on dungeon finder (internal server) and cross server PvP queues, next up is Cross server LFD me thinks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Invitcted Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 A log which showed you what dmg you or your party took and from what source would be acceptable to me, and would seem to offer quite a bit of the post combat analysis recquired by Operations guilds. But the only question that matters with DPS is.... is the boss dead?? The rest is epeenery masquerading as knowledge. You are aware that a a 'dps meter' is just parsing the data in real time as opposed to logging it for later right? Besides You question is also an over simplification. With a in-game parser I can instantly after a wipe go through and see; player A to 32k worth of damage over the fight from standing in the fire when everyone should be moving out that area before the fire hits, Player B having 0 interrupts logged despite being assigned to interrupt the raid wide aoe that hits everyone for 4k a pop, Player C doing 1k dps because they're an arsenal merc not using tracer missile and using missile blast so they were heat capped half the fight or that Player D my op 'healer' spent half the fight dpsing and isn't specced into a healing tree. Sans parser all I can to is throw my hands in the air and say hey no idea why we wiped guys lets go again (This of course is a hypothetical horrible nightmare world where I would no doubt kill myself for lack of faith in humanity). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lerthan Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 A combat Parser is good to be able to see what went wrong on a boss fight. This I do agree with. However there are negatives to a combat parser or dps meter. While the nay sayers can say that folks are just afraid that there fail will be shown for all to see. There are valid points that are brought up. Some of these are community issues and others are game play issues. The biggest Issue that arises is unfortunately a community issue and that is players being jerks about the numbers and the elitist attitude that it breeds. Yes players get booted from groups because they where not able to do a single thing to the Trash mobs before they where killed by the rest of the group. Yes players get booted from guilds and raids due to being .5% below what is the expected dps. Yes players that are actually decent players are prevented from raiding due to gear and not being able to push the dps that's expected of them for their class and spec with no consideration given to the fact that they are not as geared as the rest of the raid group, be it due to lack of raiding or due to the bosses just not dropping the items they needed. It causes impatience and honestly poor attitudes in a lot of players all over a few points of damage. This is the main issue with DPS meters or combat parsers and unfortunately something that will never go away as long as they are in a game. Is there ways to prevent this issue via game mechanics. YES THERE IS. GET RID OF ENRAGE TIMERS, and make the fight more about the mechanics of the fights then how much damage a player can do before the boss kills everybody. Now the fight is about doing it right and how good players are at dealing with the mechanics. Now the combat parser can show info that prevents the issue above as it no longer needs to show damage done. Now all it needs to show is Time spent healing vs Time spent hitting the boss in a percentage format. Damage taken from affects the boss does. Over-healing percentage. Interrupts Done. Things that deal with the actual mechanics of the fight vs how much damage did you do. Will there still be the issues outlined above yes but they wont be as prevalent and players will actually start to be judged on skill instead of how much damage they can do. A Dead DPSer is useless and does no damage. A live DPSer that does a tad less but lives threw the entire fight is worth a heck of a lot more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirkgent Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 Lerthan hit the nail on the head: GET RID OF ENRAGE TIMERS, and make the fight more about the mechanics of the fights then how much damage a player can do before the boss kills everybody. Now the fight is about doing it right and how good players are at dealing with the mechanics In case you haven't noticed, all boss encounters currently look something like this: [X boss health] / [number of DPS] / [seconds to enrage] = [mandatory DPS] This unoriginal idea (again, is currently used on ALL bosses) is the developers' fault, necessitating DPS meters in the first place. I don't get to enrage and one-shot the boss if he fails to beat ME in a certain amount of time... why should every boss get to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charliff Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 It would have been alot faster to say "Im a bad player, who fears being judged" You realize the 'real' players, are laughing at you right? Fact is, either SWTOR gets these tools, or it dies. You'll see. /sarcasm on Sure, 1.7 million players will leave this game in droves when these tools aren't added to the game /sarcasm off Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lularapio Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 Combat log is a must-have tool, let's just all agree to that. What people do with damage meters and what not is a different story. No matter what they add, if they add something in the lines of a damage meter, people always find a way to act like an elitist idiot judging you by anything that is visible. Hell, I've been kicked from a group as a dps'er because I had 13k HP when I actually pull aggro pretty easily from tanks... but no, let's just be guided by numbers, regardless of what is happening in the game! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ladybastilla Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 Combat logs and damage meters / parsing, like any other thing on earth, are not bad in and of themselves. There are times when they are extremely useful: finding out if someone is grabbing a wrong creature by mistake (they may not have understood something the group planned), figuring out what type of a fight something is (if it has an enrage timer dps info is vital) or knowing if your group is getting screwed up by a player who is lazy, or needs better equipment, or who might not understand the best (or at least a moderately good) rotation for the class they are playing. Human nature can indeed make them bad. They can be used to ridicule or exclude other people, to pressure team mates and to inflate peoples' egos. But that doesn't mean "Get rid of the damage meters / combat log!" in my opinion. That means find some new friends who actually value you as a person so you can actually enjoy the game. Personally I'm looking forward to being able to know how I'm doing. I usually play a healer in MMOs but the way that TOR is set up has actually encouraged me to make a lot of DPS characters this go around. When / if my boyfriend and I join a guild and make some new friends here this is something that I will likely tell people very early on so that I can hopefully find others playing the classes I do who can share some advice. (I would assume that the overall structure is similar to other MMOs ultimately.) I won't worry about whether I am first on a list. That's not a big issue to me. Rather, I will focus on making sure that I am contributing equally to what is getting done, and outside of that I will do my best, which is all any person can really hope for. If we choose the people we play with correctly, the game will continue just fine with or without meters. anyway, that's just my opinion. I can see why people want them, and I can see the reasons others fear their introduction. It's not necessarily that those people want to be lazy or are bad players -- it's moreso, I would guess, that they have likely had bad experiences regarding competitive pressure in other MMOs and that isn't why they came here. Have a great day! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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