Is this ethically wrong? or am I being unfair to my team?

[Galsarus]

Hi All,

 

I have faced 4 instances of an interesting situation and now wondering what would be the generally acceptable thing to do -

 

My guild is a relatively small guild and recently, we determined that we had enough people to start looking at doing End Game PvE Content such as 55 Ops and HMFPs (most of us are casual players and play when real life gives us the chance). To this degree I geared up a Vanguard Tank (with the help of Justcae and a few others to get my gearing right) along with a healer to practice our rotation, positioning, coordination etc. To this end, we figured the more practice we get (me as a Tank and my healer) the better prepared we will be for Ops.

 

Last night, we were short of DPS and decided to use the Group finder queue to fill the void. normally we only use the queue for the Comms and the team coordinates over TeamSpeak, but being short, we went for a Random DPS.

 

The first person to join our team in Hammer Station HMFP was a Vanguard Assault Spec using Ion Cell who was still using a combination of lvl 40s and lvl 50 Tanking Mods (keep in mind - he confirmed he was in assault spec tree) and lvl 35 green relics bought from the LS vendor. I mentioned to him he was in the wrong tree and he changed cells. we proceeded to the first droid boss and I noticed he was taking massive amounts of damage and died 4 times in the first 2 mins of fight. the healer was fighting 1k Lag, negating damage I was taking from the laser debuff Stack and trying to keep the poor vanguard alive. We made through as the Sentinel was in fully augment 69 geared focus sent and basically did the work of both himself and the Vanguard. End of the fight, the vanguard scored a blue 66 grade drop. by this time, we were certain we can't burn the frog in time so decide to drop the bonus. the Trio Boss set - same scenario as the first (death>respawn>jump in >death) while hammering the shielded bosses. Long story short, got through that boss and moved on to the final boss. where things took a turn for tragically comical. The guy refused to side step the "Sweeping Gunfire" and was intent on Tanking the boss in Assault Spec. in a nutshell - final boss he died 6 times before we managed to down the boss. At the end of it - he walked away with a 69 Tanking headpiece (need rolling it over me despite being a DPS).

 

Second Scenario, we pick up another random - this time a sentinel in a mix of lvl 35 mods and a single 66 Rating piece (legs) and lvl 27 Relics. and the above scenario repeats. Only this time - this guy did not even bother to check CC targets. he went on an absolute rampage on anything he could throw his light saber at. We get to the first boss, and he gets trapped 3 times while the rest of us are busy getting carbonised and dying (I had explained the mechanics to him in detail so he doesn't fall into the trap of ignorance). We get the to the Wookie and as him to wait while I kite the wookie to a safe corner - only to have him jump ahead of me and dying promptly....again by sheer chance we down the Wookie and work our way to Ortol where the team wiped 5 times (he wouldn't unshackle us despite getting alerts we're shackled. He abuses my healer for being a bad healer, abuses me for being a bad tank and saying he can't carry us through the final boss. I should point out - when we asked him if he had done this before, his answer was no. After that rant and continuous wall of abuse (why aren't we predicting the magnetic shackles, why is he dying so much, we're terrible tanks and DPS, we should stop playing etc..). we manage to burn Ortol down. come loot time - he need rolls on a Vanguard Tank implant (I'm using the Veracity tanking implant set) and hurls some more abuse and leaves.

 

In Both Instances my healer (Fully Augmented and optimised 69 gear set), DPS (fully augmented and optimised 66 gearset) and myself (mostly optimised 69 Tanking set except for implants, earpiece and headpiece which I lost earlier) felt we were carrying the guys while getting abuse hurled at us in the second instance (the vanguard fully acknowledged his faults). We were in a mindset to vote kick him, but I felt the more sporting thing to do was to finish the HMFP so he gets an exposure to the mechanics and instructed my guild members to stick it out (they respect my call and my decisions so they did not argue).

 

The question here is - was I in the wrong? Were we giving the impression that 55 HMFPs are a pushover (when we do a guild only run, we clear HS in about an hour and 15 mins, Athiss in an Hour, Cademimu in about hour and a half - all including the bonus boss and no wipes) by running people who are clearly vastly under geared and unprepared. Should we have kicked them after explaining they really should upgrade gear and work their way through 50 HMFPs to get 61 rating gear before even attempting 55 HMFPs? What would be the right thing to do in instances like these? at the end of both runs, we forked out rep costs which were around 150k mark from the multiple number of wipes (my healer is F2P so it was even higher for him). My Guys swallowed it and recouped it from dailies, but was it unfair of me to make them suffer because One DPS in Both instance should really not have been there...

[SturmUndSterne]

When someone's not in at least level 50+ gear - in all slots - then votekick them immediately in a 55 hardmode. You shouldn't have to carry a bad or undergeared DPS. Period. The replacement queue time will be approximately eight seconds.

 

If they don't perform their role correctly, warn them once, then votekick.

 

It's not your job to carry bad.

[Greenify]

Hammer station does not take an hour.

[J_Fred]

If they aren't paying your repair bills I say kick em

[WSRB]

If someone comes in drastically undergeared for the content, you are doing them a disservice by carrying them through it: instead of earning appropriate gear in some way, either through comms or simply just crafting/purchasing it, you are handing it to them for nothing. For someone's alt in your league, that's your call, but someone who's randomly queuing up for a lvl 55 HM without the proper gear clearly still needs to do some learning and the best way to do that is by having to jump through the hoops to get the gear.

 

As for a guy who is not only undergeared but also rude: you boot that person the instant they start teeing off on you like you're subhuman. The second I see guy use phrases like "Go back to..." or "You should just quit the game because..." they get ignored and booted: there are far too many people doing that in online games these days, and there are far too many people tolerating it which only perpetuates the cycle. In real life, you would get punched in the face for behaving like that; in an online game, not tolerating that sort of behavior for one second is the best you can do.

[Galsarus]

Hammer station does not take an hour.

 

Hi Greenify - I am not exactly certain whether you're implying we're slow or whether you're implying I'm bloating the facts and it takes longer than an hour. In the event you're implying we're slow - then I will admit - on guild runs, we take our time, we tend to fool around a bit (go out of our way to kill anything and everything, Aggro mobs for no reason other than to piss off the healer, the healer will pull the tank in the middle of a strong mob fight - etc.) and have fun in the process (isn't that why we're playing a game ?). If you're implying that it takes longer, it may very well be possible, but we have not experienced it. The longest fight we experience is the Frog - even then, we have yet to hit its Enrage Timer (I do not know what the Enrage timer is on the frog)

 

If they aren't paying your repair bills I say kick em

 

You do have a point, but I will admit - it is something we haven't really paid much attention to - normally we recoup all our costs on the daily runs (creds + Social Points + Legacy points), so never really felt the need be too stringent about it

 

If someone comes in drastically undergeared for the content, you are doing them a disservice by carrying them through it: instead of earning appropriate gear in some way, either through comms or simply just crafting/purchasing it, you are handing it to them for nothing. For someone's alt in your league, that's your call, but someone who's randomly queuing up for a lvl 55 HM without the proper gear clearly still needs to do some learning and the best way to do that is by having to jump through the hoops to get the gear.

 

As for a guy who is not only undergeared but also rude: you boot that person the instant they start teeing off on you like you're subhuman. The second I see guy use phrases like "Go back to..." or "You should just quit the game because..." they get ignored and booted: there are far too many people doing that in online games these days, and there are far too many people tolerating it which only perpetuates the cycle. In real life, you would get punched in the face for behaving like that; in an online game, not tolerating that sort of behavior for one second is the best you can do.

 

The thought had crossed my mind once or twice during the runs - but the way I was seeing it - I was in their position once, no one bothered to explain to me a sentinel should not be stacking Willpower (more power to my force attacks!) or a Shadow should not be stacking Strength (I'm Melee so my Melee Attacks will hurt more if I have more Strength!!) - had to learn all those things the hard way - by making mistakes, getting bullied and ridiculed without anyone stopping to explain. I felt I should take it upon myself give these guys some explanation (both had no guilds). The loss of gear was immaterial to me as my view is - it dropped once, it will drop again. But I do understand your position on my question and do thank you for your insight .

 

This may sound like I'm complaining - but all I am truly trying to understand is what others would do in these scenarios. so far, it seems booting under-geared people are the way to go as it teaches them that they are under geared for the content.

[Setalle]

It's absolutely fine to vote kick a grossly undergeared player. If you're worried it makes you look like a jerk, don't be. You can tell someone politely that they're not geared well enough to run the flashpoint, give them some tips on how to gear up and an idea of what kind of gear rating they need, and send them on their way. You'll be doing both yourself and them a favour.

[Tfranco]

When someone's not in at least level 50+ gear - in all slots - then votekick them immediately in a 55 hardmode. You shouldn't have to carry a bad or undergeared DPS. Period. The replacement queue time will be approximately eight seconds.

 

If they don't perform their role correctly, warn them once, then votekick.

 

It's not your job to carry bad.

 

I wouldn't be too harsh on the lower lvl relics, those are tough to find. Otherwise I agree completely. You should not be in 55 hms with out AT LEAST lvl 50 blues. Hell even 55 PvP gear is better.

 

As for the ninja thing, I'd kick and report him in a heartbeat. I can't stand ninjas for even a second. If its nit your roll you don't need it, if you want it ask if anyone else needs. Don't just lolgreed everything.

 

To the OP: you were being way too nice, next time kick them. It may feel rude, and hey you might get a nasty message. But I feel it helps them more. Hell back in wow if I never got raged on for being so bad at my class I would have never researched it and improved to prove them wrong.

[TheBBP]

Sounds to me like you had the patience of a saint. IMHO, you were more than a few times in your rights to vote-kick him.

[Galsarus]

Sounds to me like you had the patience of a saint. IMHO, you were more than a few times in your rights to vote-kick him.

 

I will take that as an honest and heartfelt compliment - Yes I had to exercise extreme patience with the two under geared people - but the reason why I didn't go into a full on rage is because I knew the capability and Skills of my healer and DPS and we had run the HMFPs a number of times, so we were confident about our approach (as i mentioned - I am trying to get as much practice as I can in the tanking aspects to get my basics right before attempting anything beyond SM EC)

 

It's absolutely fine to vote kick a grossly undergeared player. If you're worried it makes you look like a jerk, don't be. You can tell someone politely that they're not geared well enough to run the flashpoint, give them some tips on how to gear up and an idea of what kind of gear rating they need, and send them on their way. You'll be doing both yourself and them a favour.

 

That thought honestly hadn't crossed my mind.....you hit the nail dead on - I was worried those players would think I'm a jerk on a superiority complex trip, I wanted to demonstrate that that are also a number of good people out there who'll wear the time, risk and cost for undergeared people to experience the content, learn they're not ready or prepared, take a step back and re-evaluate their position....I sincerely thank you for putting it like that

[TheBBP]

I will take that as an honest and heartfelt compliment - Yes I had to exercise extreme patience with the two under geared people - but the reason why I didn't go into a full on rage is because I knew the capability and Skills of my healer and DPS and we had run the HMFPs a number of times, so we were confident about our approach (as i mentioned - I am trying to get as much practice as I can in the tanking aspects to get my basics right before attempting anything beyond SM EC)

 

I can appreciate that patience. I am bringing up a new Trooper and will be looking for some of that when I am trying to get geared lol. However, I take instruction well and get a bit of OCD when it comes to people managing their roles.

[Screaming_Ziva]

changed cells. we proceeded to the first droid boss and I noticed he was taking massive amounts of damage and died 4 times in the first 2 mins of fight.

I stopped reading here when you started exaggerating.

[Galsarus]

I stopped reading here when you started exaggerating.

 

I can assure you - I am not exaggerating. the fellow did not bother repairing up and was constantly taking blast damage from the little explosive droids. The healer was not able to keep up as he was playing with 1k Lag. I will not avoid responsibility that my tanking in this instance was forgettable. I wasn't managing aggro properly and big droid targeted him instead of me. Hence - all the HMFP spamming - for the practice.

 

Appreciate your comment on the issue none the less

[nateslice]

When I first got to 55, I spent a couple of weeks working my Gunslinger's type 1 tuches off to get both myself and a guildie geared up in all 66s (through Cybertech). During this time, I did a few HMs with my guild. They understood that I was still gearing up, and they were okay with carrying me a bit until I could pull my weight. I didn't even try a random until I was fully geared with 66 purples in every slot.

 

That's just to put it in perspective for you. There's a certain amount of work you should put in before going to the random queue. I probably put in a bit more than I needed to. The two randoms you carried through did significantly less than they needed to.

 

You would've been well within your rights to give them the boot on first sight, IMO.

Edited June 4, 2013 by nateslice

[Galsarus]

When I first got to 55, I spent a couple of weeks working my Gunslinger's type 1 tuches off to get both myself and a guildie geared up in all 66s (through Cybertech). During this time, I did a few HMs with my guild. They understood that I was still gearing up, and they were okay with carrying me a bit until I could pull my weight. I didn't even try a random until I was fully geared with 66 purples in every slot.

 

That's just to put it in perspective for you. There's a certain amount of work you should put in before going to the random queue. I probably put in a bit more than I needed to. The two randoms you carried through did significantly less than they needed to.

 

You would've been well within your rights to give them the boot on first sight, IMO.

 

Thanks for your views Nate It seems my approach to this situation was unorthodox

[gorstram]

This is the great thing about DPS, you can votekick them and get another one instantly. I wouldn't worry about hurting their feelings at all. If they're *******ed enough to queue up for DPS in a 55HM FP then they know they're probably going to get laughed at and kicked. They have no business being in there since they can't keep up on a DPS race, and their lolhealth pool is small enough that rudimentary AoE will quash them like piss ants.

 

Votekick. Period.

[Thaed]

When someone's not in at least level 50+ gear - in all slots - then votekick them immediately in a 55 hardmode. You shouldn't have to carry a bad or undergeared DPS. Period. The replacement queue time will be approximately eight seconds.

 

If they don't perform their role correctly, warn them once, then votekick.

 

It's not your job to carry bad.

 

Eh, I'd rather give them a chance, assuming everyone else in the group is geared enough to make up for it. So long as the guy isn't causing wipes/isn't being abusive, it's not going to add any significant amount of time to the run.

 

For example, I was doing Hammer Station one night and we were completing it with relative ease. We got to the bridges and the sniper that wasn't me knocked a robot into the gap. I'd been considering doing exactly the same thing, as I wasn't aware that it wouldn't die (sometimes things do, sometimes they don't).

 

As soon as we got to the other side, the tank/healer vote-kicked the other sniper. He was slightly less geared than me 27k hp to my 30.5k hp) and probably wasn't pulling the same dps, but it hadn't been a problem at all for the entirety of the run. Literally that one little mistake that didn't even cause a wipe (my DoTs finished it off) was enough for the guy to get kicked. In the time that it took for us to get someone else and for them to catch up, we could've downed the boss (or, at least, it would've taken exactly the same amount of time).

Edited June 4, 2013 by Thaed

[nateslice]

It's one thing to have friends who are willing to carry you a bit until you're properly geared. To expect strangers to carry you at 55 when you don't care enough to have better gear than thirty-something greens first is just rude, IMO.

 

How hard is it to have at least most of your gear slots filled with 50+ purples by the time you hit 55? Not very hard at all. Those guys must've been earning comms as they leveled; what were they doing with them?

 

Actually, it just occurred to me that they might've been F2P players, and may not have access to purples. Maybe that was the issue?

Edited June 4, 2013 by nateslice

[Galsarus]

It's one thing to have friends who are willing to carry you a bit until you're properly geared. To expect strangers to carry you at 55 when you don't care enough to have better gear than thirty-something greens first is just rude, IMO.

 

How hard is it to have at least most of your gear slots filled with 50+ purples by the time you hit 55? Not very hard at all. Those guys must've been earning comms as they leveled; what were they doing with them?

 

Actually, it just occurred to me that they might've been F2P players, and may not have access to purples. Maybe that was the issue?

 

The sentinel did have a single 66 Rating piece, so I do not believe that was the case for that instance. The Vanguard's Lvl 40s Mods were Advanced Lvl 48 mods (usable at lvl 47) and 50 mods were purple Advanced Lvl 50 Mods (usable at lvl 49). Personally - I tend to believe these guys mostly lvled on their own and counted on their gear to carry them through 55 HMFP with little difficulty. I don't think they were counting on the FPs having low margin of error for under geared people.

 

In any event, I think I now have an understanding on how to handle such situations. I sincerely thank everyone for their input:D

 

Regards.

[LordRahlik]

When someone's not in at least level 50+ gear - in all slots - then votekick them immediately in a 55 hardmode. You shouldn't have to carry a bad or undergeared DPS. Period. The replacement queue time will be approximately eight seconds.

 

If they don't perform their role correctly, warn them once, then votekick.

 

It's not your job to carry bad.

 

I generally agree with this. Warn once and then kick might be a BIT too fast, it depends on how they appear around this. Since this game auto-targets as soon as your current target dies it's not impossible to target CC/next group/wrong target once or twice during a run. But if he seems stupid and breaks CC then I say warn once then vote kick.

 

In our guild we have the motto "If it's not fun, don't do it".

It's not fun to carry someone else and your options are a) vote to kick him and if that fails (or if you don't want to do that) b) leave.

 

Of course, on the flip side of that, friendly and smart people might be extremely fun to carry and help. If people are listening to you and tries to do their best then I gladly carry them. Cause then it's fun.

[Red_rocks]

In Hammer Station upon entry I always inspect pug DPS.

If they are not appropriately geared I vote kick.

I do not skip the bonus boss ever, especially because someone comes in unprepared for it.

At level 55 they should be in minimum 66 blue gear / 61 purples, thats easily achievable quite cheaply now.

If they aren't they can go run some lvl 50fps or craft/buy 66 blues.

 

Its no huge stretch to expect a 66 barrel/hilt on a dps now either, they aren't that expensive.

Edited June 4, 2013 by Red_rocks

[Cleet_Xia]

There is no excuse for someone running in anything less than 61 purple or 66 green mods, or for not having level 50 blue relics.

 

If they don't care enough to even collect that fairly pathetic quality of gear, they don't deserve any patience IMO. Because their laziness is a detriment to the whole group.

 

It doesn't sound like those players brought anything to the table, and your guild group probably would have been just as well off with an empty slot.

Edited June 4, 2013 by Cleet_Xia

[Deluxe_]

I think people here have provided you with more than enough advice, so I just want to add this: keep your Veracity Implants.

[Galsarus]

I think people here have provided you with more than enough advice, so I just want to add this: keep your Veracity Implants.

 

:)I agree Deluxe. I had a chat with the group and the guys have assured that they're happy to follow my lead in these situation.

 

I fully intend to keep the Veracity implants and Earpiece for as long as I can - BM Implants and Earpiece takes away significant defensive stats for me - I can live with out the extra 1k HP, but not sub 20% Def Chance and sub 40% Shield Chance

 

Thanks Everyone for the construction replies and not having a go at me or name calling - I have rarely faced such situations and was not aware what proper protocol is.:o

[Joesixxpack]

When someone's not in at least level 50+ gear - in all slots - then votekick them immediately in a 55 hardmode. You shouldn't have to carry a bad or undergeared DPS. Period. The replacement queue time will be approximately eight seconds.

 

If they don't perform their role correctly, warn them once, then votekick.

 

It's not your job to carry bad.

 

^ Exactly this.