[Guide/Video] Min-Maxing DPS, Stat / Gear Check

[Xinika]

OP PvP Section updated, PvE section in the works.

for pve infiltration you can check on my signature, it's updated.

 

I'ts the same that xinika used here

Yup I plan to add your updated section to the PvE update.

Edited March 21, 2014 by Xinika

[DarrelK]

Hmm. You recommend Relic of Devastating Vengeance. Why is that? The Relic of Focused Retribution gives 625 mainstat versus the 625 crit rating offered by the other relic. Crit chance.. is really a "chance" better than pure (and pretty solid) mainstat boost (which also gives several percent of crit chance)? You also recommend Power augments instead of the generally accepted (and recommended before by you, if I'm not mistaken) Willpower augments. Why has that changed? Curious.

 

And I completely don't agree with going with MORE than 25% crit in PvP, that's such a massive loss of power. Overall I'm quite anti-crit, I play with barely 20.56% crit (if I'm not mistaken.. but it is 20.5ish, I'm sure), even considered going with 0 crit, but that might be a bit over the top.

 

Maybe you could share some numbers from warzone/arena results to support going with higher crit? Because with averaging 1200ish dps in warzone/arenas, and going up to 1700-1800 in good matches, I don't think I'm lacking on dps by going with low crit. And to be honest, that's one of my biggest dilemmas in gearing - follow the mainstream and go 24-25% crit, or go high power.

Edited March 23, 2014 by DarrelK

[Xinika]

Hmm. You recommend Relic of Devastating Vengeance. Why is that? The Relic of Focused Retribution gives 625 mainstat versus the 625 crit rating offered by the other relic. Crit chance.. is really a "chance" better than pure (and pretty solid) mainstat boost (which also gives several percent of crit chance)? You also recommend Power augments instead of the generally accepted (and recommended before by you, if I'm not mistaken) Willpower augments. Why has that changed? Curious.

Because you still need a balance of stats. Overdoing power or crit or willpower or whatever other stat is simply unnecessary. If you wish to achieve a certain type of potential then you should lean for it in relative aspect of balance. I said go Power Augments because it is more efficient to swap out mods / enh / implants to achieve more or less crit capability whilst keeping a relative balance. I also said go with the crit relic because it is a high DPS upgrade, regardless of the gear path you choose.

 

And I completely don't agree with going with MORE than 25% crit in PvP, that's such a massive loss of power. Overall I'm quite anti-crit, I play with barely 20.56% crit (if I'm not mistaken.. but it is 20.5ish, I'm sure), even considered going with 0 crit, but that might be a bit over the top.

As you said, you're anti-crit, so I would consider you more of a burst type. That's fine, but DPS type has its place - I've tested both. There is a fundamental aspect to keep in mind when it comes to Deception. No matter how much power you wish to stack, Deception still clings to its surge capability which in the end, need some reliance on achieving critical hits.

 

Maybe you could share some numbers from warzone/arena results to support going with higher crit? Because with averaging 1200ish dps in warzone/arenas, and going up to 1700-1800 in good matches, I don't think I'm lacking on dps by going with low crit. And to be honest, that's one of my biggest dilemmas in gearing - follow the mainstream and go 24-25% crit, or go high power.

From everything you said, I don't think your the type to follow the 'mainstream', but of course whatever you choose to do is entirely up to you. From my testing, 25% crit as Deception was probably the pinnacle of my DPS output. The burst capability drop was tolerable and small scale combat did not suffer much, in fact, I'd say it's simply better for the group due to the balance between power and crit capability. It's a more assured way of going about your DPS because in the end, Recklessness does not give you 100% crit and it is not up 100% of the time, especially in prolonged combat where the Burst-Type Assassin falls behind.

 

In the end it's your choice. You either gear for small battles or prolonged encounters. The latter is more practical than most assume.

Edited March 23, 2014 by Xinika

[DarrelK]

I need to do some more heavy testing. I have both relics bought and augmented since they got changed, and at first I played with crit relic, but found that the 10+% crit boost didn't really help as much when compared to the mainstat boost. Since the mainstat relic is used for PvE, and in PvE they try to maximize the DPS in a prolonged fight, I assume the mainstat relic should give more sustained DPS, compared to a (probably) more bursty crit relic. All that in mind, I do intend to test the crit relic again and compare the results.

 

As for my standard crit crating, yes, possibly lower sustained dps, though I'm not really sure it hurts as much as it would hurt PvE DPS.

 

Still, interesting that someone considers the crit relic useful. Ever since the buff to mainstat relic and testing the now-buffed mainstat relic, I just forgot about the crit relic.

[LordHartigan]

Just curious what overall Willpower should be for deception spec. I initially went all Willpower augments, but this has really brought my power down. Curious how much I can sacrifice for Power augments.

[Xinika]

Just curious what overall Willpower should be for deception spec. I initially went all Willpower augments, but this has really brought my power down. Curious how much I can sacrifice for Power augments.

The difference in Power to WP augments isn't as gigantic as a lot of people think. It's just easier to go for Power augments and change pieces such as mods, enhancements or implants to crit if you need additional crit so you can have better control on achieving the stat balance you desire.

[IInox]

Just curious what overall Willpower should be for deception spec. I initially went all Willpower augments, but this has really brought my power down. Curious how much I can sacrifice for Power augments.

 

willpwoer > power. still.

 

btw xinika sorry but i agree with obe. now way mate, primary stat relics BEATS with hands down crit rating relic.

 

crit doesn't give any sure bonus. primary yes (and also crit rating)

 

also about crit rating it's the same thing..who prefers 0crit rating wo 25%crit chance. I'm playing with 25%crit chance (25.0000!11111 :Q__) and I'm feeeling good with it. i tryed 0crit rating also, I didin't notice so much difference..

 

I have an idea btw, IMHO 25%crit chance build can be better on arenas, 0crit rating on normal wz cause on arena we can't use many times force potency. but it's just an idea, i'm not a pure pvp player so idk so good.

 

imho in average 100/200 crit rating are never wasted imho.

[IInox]

OP PvP Section updated, PvE section in the works.

 

Yup I plan to add your updated section to the PvE update.

 

good! thanks. (remember to link the doc's link pls

[Xinika]

 

I have an idea btw, IMHO 25%crit chance build can be better on arenas, 0crit rating on normal wz cause on arena we can't use many times force potency. but it's just an idea, i'm not a pure pvp player so idk so good.

 

imho in average 100/200 crit rating are never wasted imho.

25% crit for arenas is just perfect. Running around with zero crit is easier for the solo Assassin, but the Assassin who performs with their group needs a better form of stability.

 

good! thanks. (remember to link the doc's link pls

Yes I will. Should get it up over this weekend.

[IInox]

25% crit for arenas is just perfect. Running around with zero crit is easier for the solo Assassin, but the Assassin who performs with their group needs a better form of stability.

 

Indeed! I'm happy to see I'm not so out about arena philosophy.

 

at the end with 0crit or 25%crit chance, our 4/5 first hits can shot down enemy aswell.

 

I'm playing with 25%crit from 2 mounths more or less and I'm doing always good. damage is always on top, but i play on pve server...so..doesn't count so much.

 

edit.

 

btw for sustained build I would not sugget to go over 25%chance mate, in full obroan we need ~328 crit rating and they aren't so low and DR is doing his work yet.

 

edit2:

 

I added link of your 3d on my guide (I had just a mention to check here without link)

Edited March 28, 2014 by IInox

[Xinika]

Guide has been updated.

- PvE update to Deception / Infiltration (credit to llnox)

- Slight tweak to PvP update

[IInox]

good!

 

Maybe for someone it would be confused (my english is not so good) about definition of burst phase that I mean

 

Burst phase is just a SHORT window of fight (as i wrote, SoA..kephess ) where we have 10s or less where to do highest dps possible and especially at the end of this window we would prefer to use shadow strike than a project or a force breach for example, otherwise always follow the 5rules.

 

And I want to underline the project>shadow strike because I see many player "cutting" circling shadow buff using shadow strike instead project. (even some players that thinks to "stomp" others )

 

Thanks xinika!

[Evolixe]

Willpower against Power augments is simple math.

 

While power augments might give you 1350 force power and 21% crit with 4 enhancements

Willpower augments will give you 1355 force power and 21% crit with only 2 enhancements meaning the other 2 enhancements can be power ones. Which nets you at more power.

 

 

This isn't an actual formule, but if desirable i can make one. I assure you though, if you are going for anything more than base crit (any crit mods at all) willpower augments are ALWAYS better.

Edited March 31, 2014 by Evolixe

[IInox]

yes but pay attention at how much main stat we will have.

 

willpower actually > power but just because it gives crit like u said, and this crit bonus has a DR.

[Darth_Dreselus]

Hey there, thank you Xinika and Inox, I just have a few specific questions.

 

 

Decpetion:

1 - Shock; when you say Shock at 2 stacks I am guessing this means both Induction and Voltage, esentially meaning that there have to be 2 Voltaic Slashes before every Shock, even though I may gain more refreshes of Induction from other attacks

2 - Maul and Low Slash; From the skill tree I was under the impression that Maul (with Duplicity) -> Low Slash (procs Duplicity) -> Maul was part of the rotation but it does not seem to be recommended.

3 - Obfuscation and Insulation; I am guessing point are generally interchangeable there. I was thinking Insulation to lower damage taken in PvE and Obfuscation for PvP (along with Nerve Wracking).

4 - Electric Execution; I am guessing just not worth it.

 

Madness:

5 - Crushing Darkness; Question of priority, Should I use it even though my other DoTs or are to be used or delayed for after AND If I already have a CD ticking and I get the proc again, should I wait for the original CD to wear off or use anyway for the initial damage?

Edited April 4, 2014 by Darth_Dreselus

[Evolixe]

Don't wait for voltaic stacks, hell don't even always wait for induction stacks. Sometimes it's better to ignore your classes procs and buffs to push out more damage in less time*. Use your own judgement.'

 

 

*Does not count for Maul, Maul without proc is pretty much always bad.

Edited April 5, 2014 by Evolixe

[IInox]

depends if he are askign for pve or pvp. but yes sure on pvp never wait a proc. I totally ignore my buffs, just for shadow strike.

[Darth_Dreselus]

depends if he are askign for pve or pvp. but yes sure on pvp never wait a proc. I totally ignore my buffs, just for shadow strike.

 

My questions were all PvE. Even though I don't use mid tree in PvE much, would still like to know it.

[IInox]

Hey there, thank you Xinika and Inox, I just have a few specific questions.

 

 

Decpetion:

1 - Shock; when you say Shock at 2 stacks I am guessing this means both Induction and Voltage, esentially meaning that there have to be 2 Voltaic Slashes before every Shock, even though I may gain more refreshes of Induction from other attacks

2 - Maul and Low Slash; From the skill tree I was under the impression that Maul (with Duplicity) -> Low Slash (procs Duplicity) -> Maul was part of the rotation but it does not seem to be recommended.

3 - Obfuscation and Insulation; I am guessing point are generally interchangeable there. I was thinking Insulation to lower damage taken in PvE and Obfuscation for PvP (along with Nerve Wracking).

4 - Electric Execution; I am guessing just not worth it.

 

Madness:

5 - Crushing Darkness; Question of priority, Should I use it even though my other DoTs or are to be used or delayed for after AND If I already have a CD ticking and I get the proc again, should I wait for the original CD to wear off or use anyway for the initial damage?

 

 

1. Well yes you soulh use it with both 2x stacks but you know the one comes from voltaic shals doesn't expire and it's difficult to drop it

 

2. sorry I didin't get this question :S

 

3. yes maybe xinika didin't copyed it but on the doc i wrote at the end:

 

You can switch 1/2 Shadowy Veil/Insulation with 2/1 Misdirection/Obfuscation or Vigor/Deceptive Power (these talents are marginal, so just take which you think it's better for you)

 

1. never overlap Crushing darkness even if you get it's proc.

[thatPERSON]

i thought the popular consensus was power augs for dps sins? thought the main reason was because we didnt have a main stat buff in any of the trees. when did this change? why wasnt i notified? why am i still kicking *** with power augs and hitting harder with power augs then willpower augs? why am i noticing no difference in crit regardless of where its at??????

[Darth_Dreselus]

2. sorry I didin't get this question :S

 

Thanks for the answers what I meant there, and using pub terms:

 

Infiltration Tactics procs from attacks with a 9s ICD, but it also procs from Low Slash and Spinning Kick on a separate 10s ICD due to Impose Weakness talent. My understanding and testing showed that this allows for the following usage:

 

Normal attacks proc IT, I use Shadow Strike exploiting it. I then use Low Slash to get me another proc of IT and again use a Shadow Strike.

 

As Spinning Kick is kind of meh for PvE and Low Slash has a 15s cd there would not be overlap from the Impose Weakness Talent. Otherwise the talent seems pointless (and in a mirror imbalance way annoying to Sins as we have to take it to reach Voltaic Slash but Shadows do not.)

Edited April 6, 2014 by Darth_Dreselus

[IInox]

Thanks for the answers what I meant there, and using pub terms:

 

Infiltration Tactics procs from attacks with a 9s ICD, but it also procs from Low Slash and Spinning Kick on a separate 10s ICD due to Impose Weakness talent. My understanding and testing showed that this allows for the following usage:

 

Normal attacks proc IT, I use Shadow Strike exploiting it. I then use Low Slash to get me another proc of IT and again use a Shadow Strike.

 

As Spinning Kick is kind of meh for PvE and Low Slash has a 15s cd there would not be overlap from the Impose Weakness Talent. Otherwise the talent seems pointless (and in a mirror imbalance way annoying to Sins as we have to take it to reach Voltaic Slash but Shadows do not.)

 

Indeed Low slash is not used into rotation

[Darth_Dreselus]

Indeed Low slash is not used into rotation

 

So does that mean that I can forego the talent? Well I cannot because Sin, but if I were a Shadow.

 

Edit: fixed for Sins also in 2.7.

Edited April 8, 2014 by Darth_Dreselus

[Aelanis]

Hey there, thank you Xinika and Inox, I just have a few specific questions.

 

 

Decpetion:

1 - Shock; when you say Shock at 2 stacks I am guessing this means both Induction and Voltage, esentially meaning that there have to be 2 Voltaic Slashes before every Shock, even though I may gain more refreshes of Induction from other attacks

2 - Maul and Low Slash; From the skill tree I was under the impression that Maul (with Duplicity) -> Low Slash (procs Duplicity) -> Maul was part of the rotation but it does not seem to be recommended.

3 - Obfuscation and Insulation; I am guessing point are generally interchangeable there. I was thinking Insulation to lower damage taken in PvE and Obfuscation for PvP (along with Nerve Wracking).

4 - Electric Execution; I am guessing just not worth it.

 

Madness:

5 - Crushing Darkness; Question of priority, Should I use it even though my other DoTs or are to be used or delayed for after AND If I already have a CD ticking and I get the proc again, should I wait for the original CD to wear off or use anyway for the initial damage?

 

Most of your questions were answered, but I'd like to elaborate a bit:

 

1) Sometimes, it's beneficial to use Shock without stacks of Induction, but less so without Voltage stacks. The only time you would use Shock without Voltage stacks is in a burst opener, when you need to pour out a ton of damage and want to get the most out of your resources you can (and even then, only with Recklessness should it be done). Induction, though, while it hurts a bit to have only 1 stack when you use Shock, should never cause you to delay a shock. Unless you have Maul procced, it will cost you more force to build an Induction stack than it saves you. Go figure.

 

3) I prefer this talent build: http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#200bcZfrfRkGbRrbZcM.3

Obviously, the last point is in Voltaic Slash, but Torhead hasn't updated yet. I take Obfuscation to make it a little easier to keep pace with things, and to be able to get a little closer to trash mobs to be able to CC if necessary, and so if I have to trade things away, I trade that away last.

 

i thought the popular consensus was power augs for dps sins? thought the main reason was because we didnt have a main stat buff in any of the trees. when did this change? why wasnt i notified? why am i still kicking *** with power augs and hitting harder with power augs then willpower augs? why am i noticing no difference in crit regardless of where its at??????

 

You probably don't notice the crit difference because a ~3% difference (plus whatever crit you have) is very tough to notice in 10-20 second fights, though you will crit just a little more. Also, Power augments do cause you to hit slightly harder, but you miss out on a little bit of crit, which, like I said before, is easy to miss if you're not looking for it.

[Evolixe]

In PvE, you should never Shock without double Induction. You'll get into massive Force issues if you do so repeatedly.