ETA on Advanced Class change?

[LordArtemis]

His story if the jedi knight story. You could call hat his base class. Notice, however, it is called advanced CLASS, not advanced spec.

 

Regardless, BW has so far chosen not to allow class (AC) changes, thankfully. Given their total and complete silence on this issue for over 20 months, despite all the clamoring and countless threads full of cries to be able to change class (AC), I do not expect to see class (AC) changes introduced any time in the foreseeable future.

 

As others have stated, in all the time that people have cried to be handed a new class (AC), most players could have leveled and geared that new class had they actually taken the initiative to solve their perceived problem instead of crying for someone else (BW) to solve it for them.

 

As opposed to the folks crying to prevent it? There are plenty of internet tears and whining on both sides of the fence Ratajack.

[Vhaegrant]

His story if the jedi knight story. You could call hat his base class. Notice, however, it is called advanced CLASS, not advanced spec.

Why do you find it so difficult to use the correct terminology for in-game concepts?

Jedi Knight is the Class as SWTOR defines Class. Not story, not base class, but Class. Class has integral abilities associated with it and if you desire you can make it all the way to max level without ever needing to specialise any further.

Advanced Class pertains to the Sentinel and Guardian. It is a stage of specialisation that builds upon the core abilities of the Class, just as the final stage of deciding on a role from the three trees builds upon all the abilities from both Class and Advanced Class.

 

As it stands the general naming standards would never have had 'Advanced Classes' called 'Advanced Specialisations'. It would most likely have been called 'Specialisation' and the current specialisation would have been called 'Advanced Specialisation.

 

Class -> Specialisation -> Advanced Specialisation.

[hadoken]

Why do you find it so difficult to use the correct terminology for in-game concepts?

Jedi Knight is the Class as SWTOR defines Class. Not story, not base class, but Class. Class has integral abilities associated with it and if you desire you can make it all the way to max level without ever needing to specialise any further.

Advanced Class pertains to the Sentinel and Guardian. It is a stage of specialisation that builds upon the core abilities of the Class, just as the final stage of deciding on a role from the three trees builds upon all the abilities from both Class and Advanced Class.

 

As it stands the general naming standards would never have had 'Advanced Classes' called 'Advanced Specialisations'. It would most likely have been called 'Specialisation' and the current specialisation would have been called 'Advanced Specialisation.

 

Class -> Specialisation -> Advanced Specialisation.

 

So you accuse him of not using the correct terminology then go on to do the exact same thing yourself.

 

It's Class and Advanced Class. "specialisation" has nothing to do with it.

 

I would also argue with some classes in the original game finishing the class story without choosing an advanced class would be extremely difficult if not impossible to do solo. You do not get interrupts or a lot of 'core mechanics' that the advanced classes are given in the base class.

 

A vanguard really is a completely different class than a commando, regardless of how they existed until level 10.

Edited July 24, 2014 by hadoken

[TUXs]

So you accuse him of not using the correct terminology then go on to do the exact same thing yourself.

 

It's Class and Advanced Class. "specialisation" has nothing to do with it.

 

I would also argue with some classes in the original game finishing the class story without choosing an advanced class would be extremely difficult if not impossible to do solo. You do not get interrupts or a lot of 'core mechanics' that the advanced classes are given in the base class.

 

A vanguard really is a completely different class than a commando, regardless of how they existed until level 10.

I would like to direct your attention to Bioware's definition:

http://www.swtor.com/holonet/classes

 

I have a 55 Commando and a 55 Vanguard...suggesting they're different classes is just silly. They play extremely similar, just at different ranges. Not only do all AC's share a common spec tree, they also share EVERY SINGLE "CLASS" ability. Swapping from Commando to Vanguard I keep every one of my base (class) abilities the same.

 

It's no different than respec'ing to heals or tank from DPS.

[Rehneu]

Interesting how the faction-advanced class change question was answered with one of those two may end up happening and the original poster decided it was the advanced class portion. I hope this never takes place.

 

I think it will be cool though with the faction swap. Could open up a story line of betrayal of sorts in order to make such a change.

[Anaesha]

Faction change will NEVER happen!! There are just to many variables that get in the way the same as Gender changes which they also said isn't ever going to happen.

 

While you play as a Faction class/gender you set "flags' for lack of a better word allowing you to change your faction class or gender would conflict with these set "flags" and break the game.

Edited July 24, 2014 by Anaesha

[Vhaegrant]

So you accuse him of not using the correct terminology then go on to do the exact same thing yourself.

 

It's Class and Advanced Class. "specialisation" has nothing to do with it.

I was hypothesising on what it would have been called, not on what it is called.

Specialisation has everything to do with it. When you specialise you chose a path that is more focused and gives certain advantages. It has always been a contention of mine that selecting an Advanced Class feels like an intermediary stage of specialisation rather than a final choice of class.

Class defines theme, appearance, story, companions, core abilities and pretty much every unlockable achievement in the game such as buff, heroic moment, emote.

Advanced Class segregates out core heal/tank abilities and limits final role selection.

Specialisation allows for role selection and optimisation.

I would also argue with some classes in the original game finishing the class story without choosing an advanced class would be extremely difficult if not impossible to do solo.

You do not get interrupts or a lot of 'core mechanics' that the advanced classes are given in the base class.

I'm not saying it wouldn't be difficult, just that some players are able to do it. (Do they push the limits of 'cheating' by getting outside help, waiting until they have all 8 legacy heroic moment buffs to use, max out their presence for companions, max out gear, or just outlevel content... who knows)

A vanguard really is a completely different class than a commando, regardless of how they existed until level 10.

And the definitions of Class as defined by other games starts to slip in.

A Vanguard is a completely different 'Advanced Class' than a Commando.

Just as a Shield Specialist is a completely different 'Specialisation' than an Assault Specialist.

 

Most other games that use Class, use the terminology to define the central THEME of the character that is selected on character creation and not always the limitation of abilities and roles.

 

Republic Troopers are mirrors of Bounty Hunters. Mechanically their abilities are identical but they are clearly different classes as SWTOR defines Class.

[Anzel]

As soon as they make this available I'm going to switch some of my toons around. I can't wait.

[TUXs]

As soon as they make this available I'm going to switch some of my toons around. I can't wait.

 

<3 Anzel

[hadoken]

As soon as they make this available I'm going to switch some of my toons around. I can't wait.

 

Well I hope you're prepared to.

[Deewe]

Whether or not AC's are locked won't break the game. This debate really has nothing to do with mechanics. It doesn't have anything to do with story, nor end-game, nor whether someone has a lot of time, or little time. It has nothing to do with PvP, or PvE, raid, or flashpoint. It really has not much to do with companions, either. This really doesn't have much to do with whether AC's are classes or not.

 

This debate comes down to playstyle, specifically two different playstyles that almost neatly divides the playerbase in two, and are at direct odds with each other:

 

Flexibility versus Distinction.

 

My preference is for class distinction. Even in games where there is a lot of flexibility, I don't use it. I'm a purist through and through. I have issues with people being able to merely click a button and become a class that I've spent weeks upon weeks leveling, outfitting, learning, and getting to know. My distinction disappears.

 

On the other side, we have people who really could care less what other people are doing with their characters. They only want to be able to have fun and do one thing one day and another thing the next. They could care less even about their own class distinction, as long as they're having fun.

 

Now, the traditional class model of themepark MMOs (until the last couple of years) was for each class to be distinct, specializing in only one role, and to be permanent.

 

Enter flexibility.

 

BioWare knows flexibility is just as important as distinction. Their class design shows that. To many of us, they have already struck the best balance between flexibility and distinction better than any MMO to date.

 

As a person who prefers distinction, I could be insisting that classes be put back to pure roles for the sake of distinction. I could be rallying to make them distinctly different than any other class. But I'm not. I am willing to accept BioWare's current compromise on the behalf of those that prefer flexibility.

 

Now, and think about this, aren't the pro-flexibility crowd doing just that by asking for even more flexibility at the expense of the other playstyle? I submit that, yes, they are. To ask for more flexibility by opening up AC's is tipping the already perfect balance too far to the other playstyle at the expense of mine.

 

So, in short, BioWare's current balance should be left as is, especially since AC-switching is "probably" already in at a high cost. That's plenty of flexibility with this class system.

If nothing else this is one of the best posts in this topic and yet it dates from years ago.

 

Some would argue the pros and on cons of AC respec although the real deal lies in the words highlighted above.

 

 

Now, while I have the uttermost respect for JeramieCrowe regarding his longstanding contribution to these forums, we are both on opposite sides of the fence here.

 

Regarding how MMO became more for casual players, I'd tend to make it more friendly to the player.

 

If one want to switch an AC without going through the whole leveling process, then let them do.

After all they are the ones who would be the most impacted. And to be totally honest (as in real life with a position) a bad with player a specific AC role might be better after switching, so PUG related you're not even sure it'd be worse.

[Vhaegrant]

If nothing else this is one of the best posts in this topic and yet it dates from years ago.

 

Some would argue the pros and on cons of AC respec although the real deal lies in the words highlighted above.

I know you are in favour of the concept of allowing an AC swap function, so on that we agree, but I'm not so sure on the above point

 

Flexibility and Distinction are elements of the discussion sure (I know long time contributor to the thread LordArtemis strongly favours Distinction, that point of character selection that makes it 'meaningful') but I wouldn't be so fast to dismiss all the elements listed in the first paragraph.

 

From the tone and language in the middle of the post it seems to be obvious there is an implied 'Distinctive' equals hardcore gamer while 'Flexible' equals casual. I can almost hear the phrase 'Get your hands off my class you damn stinking casual' sorry been watching too much Planet of the Apes recently

 

The trouble is nothing is being taken away from the distinctiveness of the Advanced Class. There is no proposed retention of abilities from the previous Advanced Class. You would still clearly be one or the other at any particular time.

You would still have to spend time to come up to speed with an optimum rotation (go read one of Dulfy's excellent guides or spend a little time going through some regular FPs before hitting the heroic stuff).

You would still need to optimise the gear (some AC swaps get it easy, just as some role swaps do, Healer <-> DPS barely needs a new set, DPS <-> Tank needs full regear)

You would still need to earn your place in an Operations group by showing you have the required ability not to cause wipe after wipe (although to be fair this is as much about knowing a boss fight and communication than it is AC spec)

You would not be able to walk in and displace an established and skilled player from a premade group with the click of a single button.

 

What is diminished however is the sense of elitism a player can hold onto because they are the only player that knows how to play that Advanced Class to the best of its potential... but wait, they aren't the only person playing that Advanced Class in the first place.

Edited July 24, 2014 by Vhaegrant

[LordArtemis]

I disagree with the idea that it is only about distinction or flexibility. I actually don't care what other players do and have. As far as I am concerned, other players could change their class every 15 minutes.

 

What I want, personally, is for my class choice to have meaning....I want my class to feel like my real role in the game world, not simply a poorly designed container to hold a spec set and a weapon choice.

 

Unfortunately, due to the extremely poor AC design I am saddled with a half-class....something that parades as a class but feels like a UI container. It is disappointing to say the least.

 

This is why I do not support AC change, as it would further demean an almost meaningless choice to begin with.

[Anzel]

<3 Anzel

 

<3 U2 home slice. I'm saving this thread for later. Along with the one where we couldn't sprint until level 15 and the one where it was impossible to get a speeder before level 25. Oooh and the endless threads about respec'ing. LOL. So yeah. I'm saving this one as well.

[Ratajack]

<3 U2 home slice. I'm saving this thread for later. Along with the one where we couldn't sprint until level 15 and the one where it was impossible to get a speeder before level 25. Oooh and the endless threads about respec'ing. LOL. So yeah. I'm saving this one as well.

 

I hope you plan to save it for a long time.

 

Will we ever see class (AC) changes implemented? I will not say they will never implement them. As I said before, though, I do not expect to see them in the foreseeable future.

[LordArtemis]

Yea, with this game you can't really say never.

 

I remember the vehement opposition to the removal of "visual progression" from the game...funny how those folks just vanished when they introduced the CM and level 1 adaptable armor.......

[Vhaegrant]

I disagree with the idea that it is only about distinction or flexibility. I actually don't care what other players do and have. As far as I am concerned, other players could change their class every 15 minutes.

 

What I want, personally, is for my class choice to have meaning....I want my class to feel like my real role in the game world, not simply a poorly designed container to hold a spec set and a weapon choice.

 

Unfortunately, due to the extremely poor AC design I am saddled with a half-class....something that parades as a class but feels like a UI container. It is disappointing to say the least.

 

This is why I do not support AC change, as it would further demean an almost meaningless choice to begin with.

 

I'm struggling to understand the highlighted part. I'm sure we've had this conversation before, in a thread this long though it's a bit hard to locate

 

Surely the 'meaning' comes from the choice of role you want to play irrespective of the class not because of it?

[Ratajack]

I'm struggling to understand the highlighted part. I'm sure we've had this conversation before, in a thread this long though it's a bit hard to locate

 

Surely the 'meaning' comes from the choice of role you want to play irrespective of the class not because of it?

 

For me, the meaning comes from my choice of class. The role I choose to play simply determines the classes from which I can choose.

 

If I want to heal, I can choose sorcerer, mercenary or operative on the imperial side, with the republic choices being sage, commando or scoundrel.

 

If I want to tank, I can choose assassin, powertech or juggernaut on the imperial side, with the republic choices being shadow, vanguard or guardian.

 

If I want to DPS, I can choose any class.

[LordArtemis]

I'm struggling to understand the highlighted part. I'm sure we've had this conversation before, in a thread this long though it's a bit hard to locate

 

Surely the 'meaning' comes from the choice of role you want to play irrespective of the class not because of it?

 

I think that's a fair question, and honestly Vhaegrant it's not an easy one to answer, but I will try.

 

When i create a character I look at all the classes. Read the role, choose the name, the look. When I start playing, the uniqueness and role I chose is readily apparent.

 

I FEEL like a trooper, or a warrior. I don't know how to explain it exactly, only to say that the roles we choose in the beginning of the game are unique enough (though the sith and jedi are a bit muddled Ill admit) that I can say I am "living my choice". I am a trooper, CLEARLY not a warrior, or visa versa. It feels as if the choice I have made is real and substantial.

 

Then we go to AC. I am still the original class, have similar abilities, but now I have a few more. It feels like a spec...not a class. I do not get "engaged", as a warrior, I do not feel that different as a juggernaut than my marauder brothers, other than weapons and some abilities....it just feels like a spec holder, nothing more.

 

I don't feel invested in the class. I am invested in being a warrior, but what is special about my juggernaut? Where are his special missions? Where is his storyline? It seems like i'm choosing a training choice as a warrior, not becoming a juggernaut.

 

I don't know if that explains it properly.

[hadoken]

I don't feel invested in the class. I am invested in being a warrior, but what is special about my juggernaut? Where are his special missions? Where is his storyline? It seems like i'm choosing a training choice as a warrior, not becoming a juggernaut.

 

I don't know if that explains it properly.

 

You're absolutely right in the story/lore perspective contained within game they're both treated identically.

 

It's purely a mechanical thing. But since combat is the vast majority of what you DO with your class, it's not surprising people identify with their AC too.

 

The two ACs of any class play completely differently (or at least they should unless you're "doing it wrong"), they just all talk the same

[TravelersWay]

Not a ton of new info if you already read the dev posts on pts/guild flagship/class changes etc.

Twitch link: http://www.twitch.tv/swtor/b/550839126

 

When is PTS coming?

• PTS will be coming up tomorrow, not 100% sure. Only thing that is on PTS this weekend is Strongholds (all 4 strongholds), all decorations and all the systems to get decorations and public listing. Guild flagships/conquest and personal conquests are not accessible.
  
• Class change will be coming in 2.10 scheduled for Sept 9. Too much stuff going on in 2.9 to implement the class changes. The class changes in 2.10 are not too robust mostly because there will be a ton of class changes in the next expansion pack which is coming soon after 2.10.
  
• Guild flagships/conquest will be coming next week.
  
• Mannan flashpoint will also be on PTS. It is a flashpoint, not a planet. Again, it is a flashpoint, NOT a planet.
  

 

Seems like this is a moot point. Class changes are coming.

Edited July 25, 2014 by TravelersWay

[LordArtemis]

Seems like this is a moot point. Class changes are coming.

 

lol I see what you did there

[Anaesha]

Seems like this is a moot point. Class changes are coming.

 

They were not referring to actual changing your class, they were referring to changes to the classes themselves.

[Darth_Wicked]

They were not referring to actual changing your class, they were referring to changes to the classes themselves.

 

I believe he was being sarcastic.

[LordArtemis]

You're absolutely right in the story/lore perspective contained within game they're both treated identically.

 

It's purely a mechanical thing. But since combat is the vast majority of what you DO with your class, it's not surprising people identify with their AC too.

 

The two ACs of any class play completely differently (or at least they should unless you're "doing it wrong"), they just all talk the same

 

They are definitely different. There is no doubt about that. And certainly there are folks that, based on gameplay mechanics would find a way to identify.

 

For me, I want to live the decision...I want to BE the decision. I want to say "I am a Marauder" and feel it has real meaning in the game world.

 

But I don't. I feel like a Warrior that chose Marauder for the weapons and abilities. And I think the game does not help.