ETA on Advanced Class change?

[branmakmuffin]

C-O-M-P-E-T-I-T-I-O-N. If you do not comprehend the connection between competition and GAME than it is pointless to even talk to you. I will admit that there is more to a game than competition, will you admit that competition is at least a part of a game?

We're not talking about "a game," we are talking about this game. There is no necessary competition in TOR unless you choose to add it by PvPing. In fact, PvE is more about cooperation than competition. So you just go back to your "hard work" playing a game and let the adults have their fun.

 

Can you admit that competition is part of the game or are you just going to continue spewing hyperbole from amn unreasonable and logically untenable position?

When I plan to spew hyperbole and illogic, I'll send you a memo first so you will be prepared for it.

 

Just like if they suddenly canceled the game and you couldn't play it anymore, that would "just bother you", but otherwise not affect you adversely. Stop with the hyperbole.

Are you implying that canceling the game would adversely affect me, or anyone? Seriously? Gosh, I guess if the game were canceled I'd have to go live in a cave as a hermit because I would not be able to find something else equally entertaining to do with my leisure time and money.

 

We do not need consensus, we do not "need" to even play swtor. As consumers, however, when there is consensus that means there is a demand, and when companies see a demand they want to fill it.

And if the demand is there for AC change at a cost of some CC, BWEA will fill that demand. So gale we have come to terms on this and you have abandoned your nonsensical thinking.

Edited June 3, 2013 by branmakmuffin

[LordArtemis]

The argument: I played this AC to level 55 but i decided i dont like it.

Really, you played a character for over 4-5 x 24 Hours and THEN you decide you dont like? You probably have had a lot fun leveling it or you wouldnt have played it for so long.

 

To explain this a bit further, at least from my perspective, a few ACs are known to have weaknesses due to bad design at cap, or at least former cap around level 50. A few of them fundamentally change how they play at or around that level.

 

At around the 30 to 40 rangish the way the class will act at cap is not apparent.

[Five-Oh]

so, you buy new gear... Also, how will this ruin diversity? There is no logic in that reply.... Unless you fear everyone will want to be a Marauder? There will still be EIGHT classes and a few people switching AC does not mean anything less, in terms, of "diversity".

 

 

 

 

Your could NOT tank and heal on the same character...

If you switch from a Sorc, to Assassin, you will LOSE, your ability to heal.....

 

 

 

"Ideally, I'd love it to be a switch you can unlock, then flip any time — finally allowing me to Tank & Heal with one character."

THAT is a quote from the OP, about the kind of class changes she would ideally like.

Which is what I was addressing.

Did you have a relevent point?

[Thundergulch]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, I will only support AC changes if they rollback the toon to level 10 when the original decision was made.

[LordArtemis]

Let me adjust my suggestion, covering some concerns posted earlier in the thread.

 

This is not a promotion of the idea...I'm still on the fence about it.

 

 

 

AC change mechanic

 

 

Level 10 "oops" change mechanic

 

Within 48 hours of original AC choice you are allowed to reset your choice for free once.

 

You will be demoted to either the level the change was originally made at or level 10, whichever is lower.

 

All points would be refunded and armor would be removed. All Xp, ranks, titles and the like past the level you were demoted to would be lost.

 

 

Post story change mechanic

 

You are allowed a maximum of two AC changes at the conclusion of your class story (but before level 55) for a prohibitive CC cost.

 

You would be demoted to the level the change was originally made at (post storyline) or level 50, whichever is lower. The cooldown would be 30 days, and the second change would be permanent.

 

All points would be refunded and armor removed. All Xp, ranks, titles and the like past the level you were demoted to would be lost.

 

 

 

Now, one could break this change down to two separate parts, the initial 48 hour "whoops" change that is the free at or around level 10, and the post story change at or around level 50. The first part has considerably less resistance than the second part, though even the first part has it's "just reroll" detractors.

 

IMO the first part has arguments against that just hold little to any validity. However, many concerns have been raised about the "end game" change that I feel are reputable.

 

Some of them are....

 

Allowing change at cap could devalue certain ACs, causing them to be underrepresented in the game

This could diminish the original intent of pushing folks to roll alts and therefore play longer or be more invested

5 levels may not be enough time to properly learn how to play your class

This could effect overall diversity in classes and make grouping even more difficult if folks opt out of tank/healer specs

 

Now, some of the more disreputable reasons against that have posed...

Choices should matter

Players are lazy and this promotes that laziness

It is not happening and will never happen

They have always said this will never happen (proof has been posted otherwise)

Just reroll

 

I will not post what I feel are the reputable reasons for the change and the silly reasons that folks have given for the change for now, though I might add them to the post at a later date.

Edited June 3, 2013 by LordArtemis

[Decell]

AC class change should not be allowed, these are not the toss away classes and I don't want some DPS spec doing an AC class change to healer or tank to get into groups, ninja the DPS stuff and disappear while failing to do his/her job correctly. Learning how to play your character starts at level 1, not level 55. And I say this while having a level 55 DPS scoundrel who can do nothing but PVP at this point. Guess what I did, started a gunslinger instead of whining about I can't change my AC.

[LordArtemis]

AC class change should not be allowed, these are not the toss away classes and I don't want some DPS spec doing an AC class change to healer or tank to get into groups, ninja the DPS stuff and disappear while failing to do his/her job correctly. Learning how to play your character starts at level 1, not level 55. And I say this while having a level 55 DPS scoundrel who can do nothing but PVP at this point. Guess what I did, started a gunslinger instead of whining about I can't change my AC.

 

It was a good point until you added the whining part. Insulting or deriding other forum members or players for no reason other than because you do not like the suggestion made causes your post to have far less credibility and does not add to the discussion.

 

In other words history in the forum has shown, IMO, that insulting posts with relation to suggestions get flat out ignored. If you wish for your opinion to be considered you should format it in a constructive way.

[MajikMyst]

It was a good point until you added the whining part. Insulting or deriding other forum members or players for no reason other than because you do not like the suggestion made causes your post to have far less credibility and does not add to the discussion..

 

Why not?? You insult others all the time.. Anytime someone disagrees with you.. You flat called me a liar.. Isn't that an insult?? As for credibility?? I would worry about your own and not worry about others.. Just some friendly advice..

 

Here is the only point you need.. There is no benefit to the game to add AC swapping..

 

/thread

[Anzel]

Pages and pages of whining and arguing. Save your Cartel Coins folks. They are coming. I have a few toons that I will probably switch so I'm excited to see this.

[LordArtemis]

Why not?? You insult others all the time.. Anytime someone disagrees with you.. You flat called me a liar.. Isn't that an insult?? As for credibility?? I would worry about your own and not worry about others.. Just some friendly advice..

 

Here is the only point you need.. There is no benefit to the game to add AC swapping..

 

/thread

 

Others are insulted by the fact I may deride them for insulting me directly. i insult the post that insults me...it is a direct response. I certainly do not deride someone simply because they do not agree with me. My post history stands in evidence, and I would gladly compare it to yours any day of the week.

 

I did not flat out call you a liar as that would be a forum violation. I did, in fact, call into question the honestly of your POST. I claimed you might have had disingenuous intentions and posted the proof to back up my claim.

 

To your final point I appreciate the friendly advice. I will, however, continue to call to post anyone that insults forum members without being provoked.

Edited June 3, 2013 by LordArtemis

[LordArtemis]

Pages and pages of whining and arguing. Save your Cartel Coins folks. They are coming. I have a few toons that I will probably switch so I'm excited to see this.

 

Again, there is no need to insult others that may not hold your views.

[Quraswren]

SNIP...

 

 

Here is the only point you need.. There is no benefit to the game to add AC swapping..

 

/thread

 

more like /justthebeginning

 

There are far more pros than cons for an AC change and many of the cons that you already put up with.

 

They will happen. When is the real question to be asking.

Edited June 3, 2013 by Quraswren

[DarknessInLight]

This and...

 

 

 

This.

 

Indeed.

[Superman_AZ]

Just not worth it in my opinion. Edited May 16, 2014 by Superman_AZ

[DAMossimo]

Pages and pages of whining and arguing. Save your Cartel Coins folks. They are coming. I have a few toons that I will probably switch so I'm excited to see this.

 

Be prepared to obtain AC class changes ala the dye system mechanic; buy an "Advanced Class Change Kit" from the CM, then open it up and find out it isn't the one you want/need. Then buy another. Rinse. Repeat. FOTM claases will be extremely rare, selling on the GTN for well over 3 million credits.

 

Think I'm crazy? Who saw it coming with the dye system?

[Kilora]

There are a lot of advantages to having an Advanced Class change (Multi-Class) option in the game. Much the same way other MMOs function, like World of Warcraft, or Rift, having the ability to switch between Tank / DPS / Heals on the fly is invaluable. A lot of times, you will have your group together to run an operation, and be short a healer. It is nice having the ability to press a button and BAM, healer with a preset skill tree already waiting. Swap out a little gear in the bags and ready to go. It is far easier to replace a DPS than it is a Tank or Healer, so it just makes sense to encourage more people to have a Tank or Heal spec in reserve and still be able to level /pvp with their DPS spec. The sooner this game adopts the multi-class spec idea, the better.

 

That is quite different than an AC change. . .

You can already level as a DPS and swap to Tank or Heals, if you play a class with those skill trees. I run dailies on my Sorc as a DPS, but regularly heal in OPs and FPs and WZs.

 

AC class change would be me becoming an Assassin. I am 100% against being able to do this "on-the-fly" and whenever you want to. But, people have made good points -- you can invest a lot of time, money and energy into your characters, only to realize you do not enjoy the playstyle at all. Being able to swap once (maybe twice, to go back) -- allows you to correct a "mistake" made early on when you probably didn't understand each class.

 

One thing, semi-related, that they should add. Only allow people to "need" on gear if the stats are used for your current AC/Spec. Healers don't need accuracy. DPS don't need defense. Etc. It would be slightly harder to implement in SWTOR, because of the varied stats that can be "viable" for different classes -- but, this has worked beautifully in other games.

[branmakmuffin]

Be prepared to obtain AC class changes ala the dye system mechanic; buy an "Advanced Class Change Kit" from the CM, then open it up and find out it isn't the one you want/need. Then buy another. Rinse. Repeat. FOTM claases will be extremely rare, selling on the GTN for well over 3 million credits.

 

Think I'm crazy? Who saw it coming with the dye system?

Dye packs cost, what, 220 CC. AC change will cost many 100s of CCs.

[Kilora]

Be prepared to obtain AC class changes ala the dye system mechanic; buy an "Advanced Class Change Kit" from the CM, then open it up and find out it isn't the one you want/need. Then buy another. Rinse. Repeat. FOTM claases will be extremely rare, selling on the GTN for well over 3 million credits.

 

Think I'm crazy? Who saw it coming with the dye system?

 

No, I do think you're crazy.

 

Dye system = 100% cosmetic.

 

AC change = character service. Similar to name change, legacy name change, server transfer. None of the name changes are in random packs, and for good reason.

[Decell]

It was a good point until you added the whining part. Insulting or deriding other forum members or players for no reason other than because you do not like the suggestion made causes your post to have far less credibility and does not add to the discussion.

 

In other words history in the forum has shown, IMO, that insulting posts with relation to suggestions get flat out ignored. If you wish for your opinion to be considered you should format it in a constructive way.

 

Who did I insult specifically? I did not say the OP or anyone else is whining, if you took it that way I'm sorry. I meant and clearly stated I choose not to complain about my issue and move on.

[Themanthatisi]

"Ideally, I'd love it to be a switch you can unlock, then flip any time — finally allowing me to Tank & Heal with one character."

THAT is a quote from the OP, about the kind of class changes she would ideally like.

Which is what I was addressing.

Did you have a relevent point?

 

No, but with pages and pages of replies and people making their thoughts knows, you will notice, i am not for this also becoming a free-for-all.... If you were addressing that specific part, it could be better, for the people following this, to see you quote it.... I would have agreed with you if that was the case.

 

I want AC changes, I do want restrictions on it.... A field respec of classes, NO.... I also think it would be a one time deal, with a 30 day period to return back, but that's it (per toon). I want to see this implemented as a way for people to correct a bad choice, not so people have options to heal, while tanking or anything else crazy like that.

[MajikMyst]

more like /justthebeginning

 

There are far more pros than cons for an AC change and many of the cons that you already put up with.

 

They will happen. When is the real question to be asking.

 

See that is the issue.. There are no pros and cons when you consider what the mechanics of being allowed to do that will do to the game..

 

Classes like the Jedi will become obsolete because they don't have a healing spec.. See WOW.. The most popular classes in that game are druids and Paladins.. Why?? Those are the only 2 classes that can do all three roles.. Tank, heal, and DPS..

 

Bioware fought hard not to allow this in the beta.. They altered the game to make choosing your AC so simple that even a monkey can do it.. They also added multiple VO warnings and text warnings that your choice was permanent.. It is abundantly clear.. There is no hinting about anything else.. They made it so you could see the skill trees before making your choice, made it a separate window for each AC so people couldn't complain about pressing the wrong button.. They made a lot of changes to avoid AC swapping.. There was a big debate about is the AC a class or not and Bioware came out and flat said that the AC's were in fact a class.. Bioware also stated that they didn't want a single class to be able to both tank and heal.. It is actually better for the game that way.. This was all covered and decided in the beta.. Sure.. They always reserve the right to change their mind.. But their stance on this has not changed since before this game was released..

 

You all are talking about one of the fundamental rules of the game.. No one class can both tank and heal.. It would not be good for the game to change that.. Period..

 

So no.. There are no reasons to allow AC swapping.. It would adversely effect the game if it were allowed.. Which trumps any pros and cons you feel are valid..

Edited June 3, 2013 by MajikMyst

[Kilora]

So no.. There are no reasons to allow AC swapping.. It would adversely effect the game if it were allowed.. Which trumps any pros and cons you feel are valid..

 

Regardless of what you feel, they WILL happen. Most likely, however, they will be restricted. Either because of price, or an artificial limitation -- or both. But BW even said they'd like the option there. Somehow I think they probably feel the same as me.

 

I have very little problem with a 1-time swap (with a short window allowing you to un-do said swap, if the other class is worse). Fix a mistake, or "fix" the character you've blown a crapload of time and money on, so you actually enjoy playing it.

 

I have many issues with turning AC-swapping into the same thing as Spec-swapping.

[Spatology]

Currently, there are only two classes who cannot fill more then one roll through respec. Asking for AC respec will increase players gear requirements for all their off specs, but provide no real advantage. most players takin advantage of a feature of this type will already have characters of multiple roles at max level.

 

I truly feel a feature of this nature wouldn't be used often and would require a lot of time testing and implementing.

 

For some, its a question of time investment. I get it, you have a nice job and more money then sense. You should be able to mess your characters up however you choose I suppose. For me, it's much easier to level another character with his own bank and gear sets, for additional roles I'm wishing to play...

 

If you guys are hell bent on giving bioware your money, I'm certain they will take it.

[Quraswren]

See that is the issue.. There are no pros and cons when you consider what the mechanics of being allowed to do that will do to the game..

 

Classes like the Jedi will become obsolete because they don't have a healing spec.. See WOW.. The most popular classes in that game are druids and Paladins.. Why?? Those are the only 2 classes that can do all three roles.. Tank, heal, and DPS..

 

Bioware fought hard not to allow this in the beta.. They altered the game to make choosing your AC so simple that even a monkey can do it.. They also added multiple VO warnings and text warnings that your choice was permanent.. It is abundantly clear.. There is no hinting about anything else.. They made it so you could see the skill trees before making your choice, made it a separate window for each AC so people couldn't complain about pressing the wrong button.. They made a lot of changes to avoid AC swapping.. There was a big debate about is the AC a class or not and Bioware came out and flat said that the AC's were in fact a class.. Bioware also stated that they didn't want a single class to be able to both tank and heal.. It is actually better for the game that way.. This was all covered and decided in the beta.. Sure.. They always reserve the right to change their mind.. But their stance on this has not changed since before this game was released..

 

You all are talking about one of the fundamental rules of the game.. No one class can both tank and heal.. It would not be good for the game to change that.. Period..

 

If that is a fundamental rule then you're still good to go as no gamer would be able to play all 3 rolls even with an AC swap with limitations.

 

It would be great for this game and using your example above of classes having all 3 spec. Do not Fear little one. Since most people who want an AC swap also think an AC swap needs limitations, there will still not be a gamer that can do all three roles at any given time and especially not on the fly. A simple limitation such as high CC cost and a time limit would stop your mythical "one class being all three roles." So that fundamental game design you mention - That's not going to be an issue here.

 

So no.. There are no reasons to allow AC swapping.. It would adversely effect the game if it were allowed.. Which trumps any pros and cons you feel are valid..

 

So yes, this thread alone shows there are plenty of reason to allow an AC swap. There is a benefit to the gamers as well as for the business as long as there are limitations.

 

There would be no adverse effects to the game that you do not already contend with in some manner. An AC swap would be a massive innovative move what SWTOR could pull off where no other MMO was setup to do so.

 

It would be fantastic as both a business move and game play move for multiple reason already listed.

Edited June 3, 2013 by Quraswren

[Khevar]

...

 

You all are talking about one of the fundamental rules of the game.. No one class can both tank and heal.. It would not be good for the game to change that.. Period..

 

...

And yet they can dps and heal?

 

When I hit level 50 on my dps sage, joined a guild, and was asked to respec to healer for raids, I did so and stumbled around like a blind man running a Marine training course.

 

Arguable the ability to respec between dps and healers is just as bad for the game.

 

Right?