ETA on Advanced Class change?

[sturgess]

I rolled a Paladin but I want to be a Warrior now, wah wah let me pay money to convert so I don't have to level again.

 

Worst idea ever, last thing an MMO needs is class conversion, enough people already suck at playing the AC they have, never mind letting them change to another without having to level with it to learn the ropes.

 

Naw, it's more like switching from Holy Priest to Shadow Priest.

[MajikMyst]

Naw, it's more like switching from Holy Priest to Shadow Priest.

 

Ummm... No.. AC swapping is a class change, not a spec change.. There is a big difference between a sage and a shadow..

 

Not so with a shadow and a holy priest.. Those are just different specs..

[MajikMyst]

Come on. Roll a THIRD smuggler? You don't think that might be just a bit ridiculous?

 

Actually no.. It isn't ridiculous.. What is ridiculous is you are still here ranting about the same things despite being proven wrong repeatedly by myself and others..

 

There is no need for three smugglers.. You can change your spec anytime you want.. So all you need is one gunslinger and one scoundrel.. That is just two..

 

I have both a shadow and a sage.. 2 separate characters.. Nothing wrong with that in the least..

 

People just need to learn to play the game within the rules of the game.. Nobody is so entitled that they can just demand a change because it suits them.. No gaming publisher should be asked to bend the rules of their game to appease a few selfish and lazy people..

[wombatjake]

How is it a bad idea to be able to switch advanced classes? Those who are so upset by this notion are ridiculous. "but you made a choice so you should have to roll an alt.". That is the dumbest logic I have ever heard. I should have to sit through the same story again? Are you kidding me? Every MMO of this style allows you to play a different spec. and advanced classes are no more than a new spec. group. It's not an actual class change. The guy who compared it to a paladin changing to a warrior is beyond ridiculous. I am shocked that so many people are whining that this could happen. If you don't like it if/when it's implemented, DONT USE IT! How is it your business what others do? It's not going to affect you in any way. If I want to go from shadow to sage, so what? Or commando to vanguard. All I see are whiny elitists trying to turn SWTOR in to some hardcore MMO.

[Ratajack]

Come on. Roll a THIRD smuggler? You don't think that might be just a bit ridiculous?

 

First, I don't want AC change. If it comes, great (I think it is the smart move for the game), if it doesn't that is fine for me as well. The character is staying at level 15 and I won't roll another. Two is enough.

 

The point was presented as a reason to allow it. If you think that it's unreasonable to allow an almost brand new character to change AC...well...that just shows there are folks that are dead set against this idea no matter how much sense it might make...

 

And there is nothing wrong with that. But in the end I strongly doubt there is ANY reasonable reason someone could give as to why a new character shouldn't be able to change their AC. All of the other arguments go out the window with a character this low.

 

I'm a little confused here. You say you won't roll a THIRD smuggler as that would be ridiculous. Yet in your previous post you said:

 

Here is an example where a change could be useful. I didn't realize it until I decided to do a bit of crafting.

 

I have a crafting bot...my smuggler. He's a scoundrel, was pushing him up the scrapper line because I already had too many healers.

 

Well, I discovered scrapper was not fun to play at all. Not a good healer, not a good dps, only really effective at close range and even then not as good as other melee classes on average. Overall a pretty underwhelming class to play in PVE.

 

So, at level 15 I quit playing him...and there he has sat ever since. I don't even have his ship. I just didn't bother to continue to level him since I couldn't change the AC but didn't want to sink the substantial cash into gearing a reroll.

 

It means I haven't played the smuggler storyline past that level. It means it's unlikely he will ever see 16. I use him to make mods and earpieces, and run around to harvest mats on Coruscant every once in a while.

 

 

Here is where an AC reset would be useful....first, he's just at 15. I've just barely started playing the class. Second, it

s unlikely I would level him, or any other smuggler for that matter because I'm theoretically stuck in stubborn limbo. If I could pull him out of this weak AC (as I see it) and put him into a better PVE spec I would level him to the top.

 

So there you go. One way it could be helpful, and I doubt it would hurt other folks in the game if I did that.

 

You quit playing your scoundrel at level 15 and have not played the smuggler storyline past that level? Does that mean you have 2 smugglers at level 15 or below? Does that mean you are being less than truthful about not having played the smuggler storyline past level 15?

 

If you have 2 smugglers already, then I'm guessing you have 1 scoundrel and 1 gunslinger. If you have a gunslinger already, then level that one and use your scoundrel for crafting, as someone else suggested. If you have 2 smugglers now, and both are scoundrels, then I have no sympathy for you since you knew from the one that you did not the scoundrel.

 

If you have two scoundrels at or below level 15, and have not played the smuggler storyline past that level, then why would rolling a third be a problem? It takes very little time to reach level 15 and it would give you a chance to see the smuggler storyline in its entirety.

 

One last thing. Remember those reasons I said were the most common for wanting a class change? The ones that included "I want to be the OP class"? Your exact words were: "If I could pull him out of this weak AC (as I see it) and put him into a better PVE spec I would level him to the top." That sounds like you want to be the OP class.

[Ratajack]

How is it a bad idea to be able to switch advanced classes? Those who are so upset by this notion are ridiculous. "but you made a choice so you should have to roll an alt.". That is the dumbest logic I have ever heard. I should have to sit through the same story again? Are you kidding me? Every MMO of this style allows you to play a different spec. and advanced classes are no more than a new spec. group. It's not an actual class change. The guy who compared it to a paladin changing to a warrior is beyond ridiculous. I am shocked that so many people are whining that this could happen. If you don't like it if/when it's implemented, DONT USE IT! How is it your business what others do? It's not going to affect you in any way. If I want to go from shadow to sage, so what? Or commando to vanguard. All I see are whiny elitists trying to turn SWTOR in to some hardcore MMO.

 

How is allowing class changes good?

 

The devs have stated that AC's are different classes. While their last statements regarding AC changes makes it sound like we might possibly see AC changes, they have never wavered from the stance that AC's are DIFFERENT classes, as far as I know.

 

You may not think allowing class changes affects anyone else. If you've read this thread, then you should have seen the many posts explaining how class changes affect other players.

[LordArtemis]

Actually no.. It isn't ridiculous.. What is ridiculous is you are still here ranting about the same things despite being proven wrong repeatedly by myself and others..

 

Proven wrong? You have to be kidding.

[LordArtemis]

I'm a little confused here. You say you won't roll a THIRD smuggler as that would be ridiculous. Yet in your previous post you said:

 

You quit playing your scoundrel at level 15 and have not played the smuggler storyline past that level? Does that mean you have 2 smugglers at level 15 or below? Does that mean you are being less than truthful about not having played the smuggler storyline past level 15?

 

If you have 2 smugglers already, then I'm guessing you have 1 scoundrel and 1 gunslinger. If you have a gunslinger already, then level that one and use your scoundrel for crafting, as someone else suggested. If you have 2 smugglers now, and both are scoundrels, then I have no sympathy for you since you knew from the one that you did not the scoundrel.

 

If you have two scoundrels at or below level 15, and have not played the smuggler storyline past that level, then why would rolling a third be a problem? It takes very little time to reach level 15 and it would give you a chance to see the smuggler storyline in its entirety.

 

One last thing. Remember those reasons I said were the most common for wanting a class change? The ones that included "I want to be the OP class"? Your exact words were: "If I could pull him out of this weak AC (as I see it) and put him into a better PVE spec I would level him to the top." That sounds like you want to be the OP class.

 

I have one smuggler. I deleted the one prior to this one, at level 12 if I remember right. The AC choice was the same unfortunately, so I have now had two toons in the same AC. I shouldn't have deleted the first one so I could remember which one I had done before.

 

It may sound that way to you, but what it actually is is that one AC is weak and designed that way, the other is not. One AC is designed specifically to perform in PVP, one in PVE.

 

I don't think that qualifies as wanting an OP class...I want a class that is suited to my play style.

[branmakmuffin]

How is allowing class changes good?

Two words: Cartel Coins.

 

You may not think allowing class changes affects anyone else. If you've read this thread, then you should have seen the many posts explaining how class changes affect other players.

No, we know how some people claim allowing AC changes will affect others.

Edited June 3, 2013 by branmakmuffin

[Ratajack]

Two words: Cartel Coins.

 

 

No, we know how some people claim allowing AC changes will affect others.

 

No, we have seen many people explaining exactly how allowing class changes will affect other players and we have seen those explanations ignored and dismissed by the "I want it and it won't affect you so I should be able to have it" crowd because those explanations do not mesh with the desires of said crowd.

[branmakmuffin]

No, we have seen many people explaining exactly how allowing class changes will affect other players

No, we see people explaining their claim that allowing AC changes will affect other players. They can keep claiming it forever, and their claims will never amount to more than "I just don't like it."

[Spatology]

No, we see people explaining their claim that allowing AC changes will affect other players. They can keep claiming it forever, and their claims will never amount to more than "I just don't like it."

 

Your request amounts to, "I want this, I'm lazy, take my money". You have the tools you need to make all your dreams come true! Just use them!

[LordArtemis]

Your request amounts to, "I want this, I'm lazy, take my money". You have the tools you need to make all your dreams come true! Just use them!

 

There is no reason to insult those that desire this feature, nor those that do not want it. This type of back and forth simply causes the post to lose any kind of credibility.

 

If you wish to discuss the manner in a way that demonstrates self respect, so be it. Otherwise, PVP forums are that way>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

[Botchur]

Having the ability to change your advanced class changes from 8 classes per faction to only 4. There will be no diversity. Plus how would it work for a class like a Warrior? Changing from a Juggernaut to a Marauder will render all of your gear useless.

[LordArtemis]

Well, a few folks have pointed out that the gear problem is up to the player. It would be the players responsibility to get the right gear.

[LordRahlik]

...The changes made recently SAVED the game, like it or not. It had all of the restrictions and narrow design elements that hardcore players loved and the game fell FLAT ON IT"S FACE. The dev team is gone.

 

Like it or not the game is changing. That might be something hardcore players have to learn to live with.

 

The argument that they meant something else, or that it was doublespeak is a SENSIBLE argument. Just lose the attitude and perhaps folks will take it seriously.

 

All of the above is true, BUT - all of the changes that has been made as been made to attract MORE players. And that has been successful. But this change will not draw more people TO the game. It will inspire and motivate players who are already in the game and it will push those hard core people that you want to "live with it" away. Cause they wont live with it. They will leave.

 

You gamble that just cause the other changes has been good this one will too.

That gamble is very dangerous.

[LordArtemis]

All of the above is true, BUT - all of the changes that has been made as been made to attract MORE players. And that has been successful. But this change will not draw more people TO the game. It will inspire and motivate players who are already in the game and it will push those hard core people that you want to "live with it" away. Cause they wont live with it. They will leave.

 

You gamble that just cause the other changes has been good this one will too.

That gamble is very dangerous.

 

It's a sensible point IMO. It has been raised before for most of the recent changes...but in this case I think the case against has some validity here. After all, to me this is something akin to removing trinity from the game....or armor all together. It's a pretty dramatic change.

 

I agree it's risky, and it may not have the effect other changes have had on the game. I think this is a good discussion and should continue.

[Mekkanon]

Would be amazing if people would read the entire discussion before adding a view, stated by many already.

 

Im against the change in general, i do feel that certain problems within this discussion pop up.

Can the advanced class be considered a different class or just a spec?

 

+ Its a different class because of mechanics, gameplay and gear

- Its not a different class because they share skills and a story.

 

A Class is defined by its mechanics, gameplay, resource system and the gear used.

(If someone could give another definition id be open to suggestions.)

 

If 2 out of the 4 are different were already talking about different classes

For example. While in WoW warlocks and mages shared, recourses and gear, their mechanics and gameplay were different enough to be considered different classes.

It is the same within SWTOR. Even between Guardians and Sentials. Heavy vs Medium armor and mechanics (fury) AND gameplay. (having taunts available is gameplay)

 

The next part has the assumption that AC's ARE in fact different classes.

 

One of the most used arguments is that the story is the same and people dont want to play the same class all over again.

If they are that identical, then why change the class, it wouldnt give any benefits?

Its because they are not identical. A sage playthrough offers a completely different gameplay expierence than a shadow does.

Same counts for a scoundrel and gunslinger. a Commando and a Vanguard. The only possible exception is the Guardian/sentinal, but as above stated even they are different enough.

 

The argument: I played this AC to level 55 but i decided i dont like it.

Really, you played a character for over 4-5 x 24 Hours and THEN you decide you dont like? You probably have had a lot fun leveling it or you wouldnt have played it for so long.

 

Im a casual player, i dont have time to level a whole new char!

Why exactly do you want to change AC? At level 55 its all about end game.

 

Just because it is easier to code AC changes than complete class changes doesnt mean there is a theoretical difference between them.

If you approve of AC changes by definition you Approve of class changes.

If someone could argue convincingly why class changes in SWTOR are a good thing i might switch my mind.

But i dont want class changes to be available because this game wouldnt feel like an RPG anymore.

 

People remember what RPG'S were like? you made tough decision about your playstyle, your story and your statistics.

 

TBH i LOVE QoL improvements like sprint, vehicles XP boosts for alts etc. It makes the experience smoother and you get to chose to do what you want while leveling and still not be underleveled.

Double XP weekend? Awesome

Im not for making the leveling experience harder or more tedious i just think that time/effort should not buyable. Changing an AC is doing exactly that.

(Changing cosmetics does not influence gameplay mechanics)

[Five-Oh]

You want to be able to tank AND heal on the same character? Well, hey, why don't we just do away with ALL classes and have only one in the game? That one class would start at level cap and have every ability of every current class. Awesome! You could log in, have a big "Press To Win" button show up, press it and cut to end credits. We'd all save a bunch of money and time then, huh?

[Xeperi]

"Earning." You do realize we are talking about a game, here, not the Medal of Honor?

 

 

It's a character class. In a computer game. You (and others) have lost sight of that.

 

C-O-M-P-E-T-I-T-I-O-N.

 

If you do not comprehend the connection between competition and GAME than it is pointless to even talk to you. I will admit that there is more to a game than competition, will you admit that competition is at least a part of a game? I have very clearly laid out where I think the connection is, and in my opinion, to what degree a game can lack competition before it is not even really a game.

 

Can you admit that competition is part of the game or are you just going to continue spewing hyperbole from amn unreasonable and logically untenable position?

 

You have not established that your hours leveling a Juggernaut have any value beyond some ill-conceived sense of pride you may feel regarding all the "hard work" you put into playing a game. Again, the only way AC change would affect you is to the extent you allow it to bother you.

 

Just like if they suddenly canceled the game and you couldn't play it anymore, that would "just bother you", but otherwise not affect you adversely. Stop with the hyperbole.

 

We don't need any consensus. If BWEA thinks it's worth it to implement it (for some huge CC cost), they will.

 

We do not need consensus, we do not "need" to even play swtor. As consumers, however, when there is consensus that means there is a demand, and when companies see a demand they want to fill it.

[Xeperi]

 

I suggested a max of two changes per character, with a demotion to either the level the change was originally made at (post storyline) or level 50, whichever is lower. The cooldown would be 30 days, and the second change would be permanent.

 

All points would be refunded, naturally, and armor would be removed to prevent folks from changing over to a medium armor AC while continuing to wear heavy armor.

 

 

Something like this is a reasonable place to really start talking imo. Even so, why not push really hard (aka reach a consensus) for an additional tier that starts at level 50 or 55? To me, when it comes to disagreements among the players about how/if they game should change the answer that includes more new content (new, not recycled, and not mere cm baubles) is always the correct answer.

[Xeperi]

Here is an example where a change could be useful. I didn't realize it until I decided to do a bit of crafting.

 

I have a crafting bot...my smuggler. He's a scoundrel, was pushing him up the scrapper line because I already had too many healers.

 

Well, I discovered scrapper was not fun to play at all. Not a good healer, not a good dps, only really effective at close range and even then not as good as other melee classes on average. Overall a pretty underwhelming class to play in PVE.

 

So, at level 15 I quit playing him...and there he has sat ever since. I don't even have his ship. I just didn't bother to continue to level him since I couldn't change the AC but didn't want to sink the substantial cash into gearing a reroll.

 

It means I haven't played the smuggler storyline past that level. It means it's unlikely he will ever see 16. I use him to make mods and earpieces, and run around to harvest mats on Coruscant every once in a while.

 

 

Here is where an AC reset would be useful....first, he's just at 15. I've just barely started playing the class. Second, it

s unlikely I would level him, or any other smuggler for that matter because I'm theoretically stuck in stubborn limbo. If I could pull him out of this weak AC (as I see it) and put him into a better PVE spec I would level him to the top.

 

So there you go. One way it could be helpful, and I doubt it would hurt other folks in the game if I did that.

 

That sounds fairish to me. How about this: up to level 20 you get a free re-roll to any class you want. But you cannot reroll until you reach 20. After that there is a 2% per level total xp loss for re-rolls. So a level 50 would lose 60% of their xp to re-roll, but they could still re-roll a brand new class that would be in the late 20's early 30's range. Ad to that a two day cool down per level after 20. So if you re-roll your lvl 50, you have 60 days to do it again.

Edited June 3, 2013 by Xeperi

[Themanthatisi]

Having the ability to change your advanced class changes from 8 classes per faction to only 4. There will be no diversity. Plus how would it work for a class like a Warrior? Changing from a Juggernaut to a Marauder will render all of your gear useless.

 

so, you buy new gear... Also, how will this ruin diversity? There is no logic in that reply.... Unless you fear everyone will want to be a Marauder? There will still be EIGHT classes and a few people switching AC does not mean anything less, in terms, of "diversity".

 

 

You want to be able to tank AND heal on the same character? Well, hey, why don't we just do away with ALL classes and have only one in the game? That one class would start at level cap and have every ability of every current class. Awesome! You could log in, have a big "Press To Win" button show up, press it and cut to end credits. We'd all save a bunch of money and time then, huh?

 

Your could NOT tank and heal on the same character...

If you switch from a Sorc, to Assassin, you will LOSE, your ability to heal.....

Edited June 3, 2013 by Themanthatisi

[Anzel]

LOL... all these pages of arguing and toiling and you just know that we'll see an AC change in the form of Cartel Coins coming soon. You folks **really think they won't offer that? OK.

[Themanthatisi]

People remember what RPG'S were like? you made tough decision about your playstyle, your story and your statistics.

 

TBH i LOVE QoL improvements like sprint, vehicles XP boosts for alts etc. It makes the experience smoother and you get to chose to do what you want while leveling and still not be underleveled.

Double XP weekend? Awesome

Im not for making the leveling experience harder or more tedious i just think that time/effort should not buyable. Changing an AC is doing exactly that.

(Changing cosmetics does not influence gameplay mechanics)

 

Sorry, I had to shorten it to this part.... It is ironic, you mention RPG, that's my game style and this game, TOR, is my first MMO, but there are some differences.

 

In a traditional RPG, computer based, that is.... You have classes, yes, but the classes in a traditional RPG does not need to have a role, on a team of 4, 8 or 16. This is for myself and MANY others, our first MMO, some came because its Star Wars, others because it is as close to KOTOR 3 as we will get. Also, you mention, tough decisions, yeah, in games like KOTOR 1 and 2, Mass Effect and many others, that is true... in TOR, does any decision you make, in the story really matter all that much? really?... its on rails, it has a predetermined outcome, it has static worlds, it has companion, that do not die, that will never permanently abandon you.... very different experience!

 

Playing a RPG, you basically also have less of what is called "Grind". I leave an area that I killed bad guys in, they they stay dead, this "grind" is easy, but time consuming and frustrating. Unlike running a OPS or HM, where you have challenge and strategy, making reply of those mission, more interesting and FUN, lets not forget the word FUN here.....

 

Also, many RPG games, unlike this MMO, has lots of exploring in it, that make a game feel deep and interesting. This game, has rails and a static story, so once you seen the story, its the same exact game, with the same mission, the same number of bad guys to kill. the companions, same things, I love having them, but tis the same companion, the same companion stories. Yeah, the mechanics of how you play a toon may be different, but that's it. If someone wants to learn to play another AC, thats on them and does not affect other people in the game. In my case, with 12 toons, I am not interested in another railed leveling experience....

 

I can live without AC changes, I simply wont play my heavy DPS Pub toons and stay IMP. If it comes, great, if not ill live... Its not like TOR is my life and I wont allow it to be anyway. In the end, ESO is on its way, and the more they tout "exploration" and exciting RPG gamers, this game may just become a ghost town, except for the SW hard core players. Leveling in TOR, once you know the stories, really feels more like work and its no longer fun.

 

To make matters worse, I play with my wife, who has 14 toons, her 12 and my 12, we level together... so I seen all the stories more then 2 times, we play alternating classes... If I am a JK, she is a Counselor...

 

I know, maybe our situation is different and some that want AC changes, want only one toon they play.... The others, though, board to death with leveling and want other classes, in another faction, as in my case, the Pub side, to be as enjoyable, as the ones they now have in the IMP side they may just need the AC change to remain with the game longer.....

 

Many came into the game understanding classes and roles, I can see where these people think AC changes are bad.

 

If leveling was a bit more open, had a bit more exploring, felt less like a grind, maybe I would have 24 toons... who knows, but at this point, toon number 13, will never be made... Ill play my end game on IMP, and see what happens over time.

 

Also, TOR adding the element of AC change, gives this game a unique feature, a feature, that used by someone, would not affect the play of others.... It is very unfortunate, they think it will.

Edited June 3, 2013 by Themanthatisi