ETA on Advanced Class change?

[Helig]

We all know for sure AC changes wouldn't improve the game at all, just like double XP weekends only exist to cater for those who leveling a character is NOT a joy - so to speak - but more of a grind.

 

If people enjoy the game for what it is, I honestly find it hard do believe they find THAT hard to just reroll or play the mirror class, opposite advanced class they picked the first time around for the other... It's not rocket science for Pete's sake.

 

If you find this so hard to grasp, then one thing is for sure: This is NOT the game you're looking for.

Because there is only one reason for a person to see things in a certain way, right? Because if you want AC change, you're lazy. If you want double XP (which I hate, but not because I think they're made for lazy people, but rather because they screw over the levelling pace of my alts), you're lazy.

 

You can enjoy almost anything for what it is. That doesn't mean it can't be improved - at least in a way that you see is better. That's what debate is for - settling pros and cons, seeing different viewpoints, hearing things that you may not have thought about.

 

Presuming that your viewpoint is the correct one and labelling the opposition with negative qualities is, at the very least, short-sighted.

Edited October 22, 2013 by Helig

[Helig]

OPINION: Bioware once considered AC swapping then decided it was a bad idea and changed it.. They added repeated statements and messages in the game stating that our AC is permanent.. Sorry.. But this is opinion and not fact..

Fixed.

 

Because a decision can only be made once and is final. BW never stated that AC change will NEVER EVER happen. They said it *may* happen, "some time in the future". Yes, the game says your AC is permanent. Because it *IS* permanent right now. If it stops being permanent, the game will say different things.

OPINION: Changing your class is a bad idea.. There are like 0 games that allow you to change your class, I would think that if it was a good idea that at least 1 would do it.. Again OPINION, and not a fact..

Fixed.

 

Also, there are games that allow class changes. SWG comes to mind. I loved SWG. FFXI allows class changes. Rift essentially allows you to disassemble and reassemble your classes.

 

You are entitled to your opinions, but not your own facts..

You have no facts. Only opinions and subjective viewpoints.

 

You don't give constructive feedback or objective support of your notions as to *WHY* AC change is a bad idea. You just say that it is and that it's obvious. Zero weight behind it, other than the weight of your inflated ego.

Edited October 22, 2013 by Helig

[Darth_Wicked]

Because there is only one reason for a person to see things in a certain way, right? Because if you want AC change, you're lazy. If you want double XP (which I hate, but not because I think they're made for lazy people, but rather because they screw over the levelling pace of my alts).

 

You can enjoy almost anything for what it is. That doesn't mean it can't be improved - at least in a way that you see is better. That's what debate is for - settling pros and cons, seeing different viewpoints.

 

Presuming that your viewpoint is the correct one and labelling the opposition with negative qualities is, at the very least, short-sighted.

 

Pointing out the obvious is not short-sighted but rather... Well, just obvious really. Arguing for the sake of arguing is pointless, which is what you're doing right now.

 

Also, thus far, you have FAILED to clearly demonstrate how AC swap would improve - if any - the overall quality of the game.

[Helig]

Pointing out the obvious is not short-sighted but rather... Well, just obvious really. Arguing for the sake of arguing is pointless, which is what you're doing right now.

 

Also, thus far, you have FAILED to clearly demonstrate how AC swap would improve - if any - the overall quality of the game.

There's over 300 pages with people saying how it would improve experience. Also, burden of proof lies on both sides. So far, I've seen only elitist sneering from the anti-AC change crowd, and very little constructivism.

 

Arguing on emotions and feelings (what feels obvious to one person is the definition of subjectivity) is never constructive.

Edited October 22, 2013 by Helig

[Darth_Wicked]

There's over 300 pages with people saying how it would improve experience. Also, burden of proof lies on both sides. So far, I've seen only elitist sneering from the anti-AC change crowd, and very little constructivism.

 

Arguing on emotions and feelings (what feels obvious to one person is the definition of subjectivity) is never constructive.

 

I fail to see how refusing to accept the consequences of one's choice actually "improves" one's experience, if only I'd say it actually cheapens it.

 

There's no reason whatsoever for anyone who actually ENJOYS the core game experience NOT to re-roll the same class or mirror class, opposite AC... Or if there is, you have failed to show which reason that is thus far.

[Vhaegrant]

I generally agree with it, however the CC cost for later switches should not be so much less. (Perhaps grant one free switch item, bound to character, when you initially unlock, so you can go back to your original AC if you realise you made a bad mistake, but not so free and easy that you're forever switching back and forth.)

 

Way back in the dim history of this thread when I first put forward this suggestion the prices were largely based on my perception of what was expensive. Since then, with CZ-198 and Oricon becoming available and with a few more high level alts to run them I can see your point that 100,000 credits just isn't that expensive at endgame.

 

That said for some one on their way up with their first character the thought of blowing that many credits (usually I find levelling is so fast that the cost of going to the trainer nearly outstrips my ability to earn credits) would give pause for thought.

 

Much of the reason behind having the cheaper option there was to have it work more like the field respecialisation ability. With that you pay a large one off fee to gain access to the ability and then the regular respect cost (or no cost at all if you subscribe, not that I would ever advocate free ac swapping) and can respec anywhere.

 

I feel that restricting the AC swap by both location and time frame is important to prevent it from being abused by those that would use it as an exploit in Warzones or during Operations. At the time it was possible to 'respec' during a warzone that has since been removed.

 

To me the difference between ACs is little more than another tier of specialisation and should be treated as such. The main technical challenge would be keeping track of the advancement in one ACs abilities after you have switched. It would not surprise me if the code for this already exists behind the scenes.

 

When you make an AC swap not only would you have the cost of swapping but also the cost of playing catch up to advance the new abilities. Depending at what point or who regularly you chose to swap this could be a significant cost in and of itself.

[Helig]

I fail to see how refusing to accept the consequences of one's choice actually "improves" one's experience, if only I'd say it actually cheapens it.

What holds value to you doesn't hold value to another person. They may hold value in things that don't appeal to you.

 

So, when I respec my talent trees and change my gear loadouts to accommodate a tank role from a DPS role - does that cheapen my experience because I refuse the consequences of my choice when I, for example, picked Prototype spec on my Powertech when I levelled him?

 

Even Ultima, which was pretty hardcore compared to modern MMOs, allowed you to retrain the skills that essentially constituted your class.

There's no reason whatsoever for anyone who actually ENJOYS the core game experience NOT to re-roll the same class or mirror class, opposite AC... Or if there is, you have failed to show which reason that is thus far.

On the other hand, if you cannot enjoy core game experience without physical incentive...

 

I have 2 Jedi Guardians. I levelled them because I liked the story and wanted a character that looks different, and solidified the choice with a completely alternative playstyle choice. I liked the core experience, and I wanted to see how different specs behaved during the levelling process, as well.

 

The things that attract me to MMOs are freedom of choice and evolving experience. Why limit choices artificially? People are not stupid. People don't need anyone holding their hand. Give them freedom and they'll define their experience themselves, for the good or for the bad.

 

It's *YOU* ho have failed to show a valid reason why AC change is the Devil. It's not black and white. It almost never is.

Edited October 22, 2013 by Helig

[Vhaegrant]

I fail to see how refusing to accept the consequences of one's choice actually "improves" one's experience, if only I'd say it actually cheapens it.

 

There's no reason whatsoever for anyone who actually ENJOYS the core game experience NOT to re-roll the same class or mirror class, opposite AC... Or if there is, you have failed to show which reason that is thus far.

 

I enjoy the experience of playing the game and have 19 characters , 9 of which are max level. I have plenty of time to put into the game and a big part of why I play is to go through the storylines.

 

I also enjoy the choice and freedom to define a particular character as I like. While I would not advocate a swap from Bounty Hunter to Sith Warrior (more for the technical issues of differing story and companions ) I don't have the same hesitance when it comes to an AC swap.

 

Maybe it's because my main is a Powertech and has to deal with the jump between a DPS spec or a Tanking spec that I have less of an issue. When changing between these I already have to adopt a completely different item set, stance and ability rotation (far more than a DPS to Heal transition would need). And, I see that as no great difference to what happens if I could swap from Powertech to Mercenary. In essence the character would need to change the offhand from a generator/shield to a blaster pistol, put on a differing set of armour and have a different rotation.

 

I don't ask for this because I want an easy way of levelling, I want this because it allows me to explore differing playstyles with the same character at higher levels.

 

I personally feel Bioware made the mistake of making end game characters far too restrictive in how much customisation was available especially with regards to the weapons allowed to be used by a particular character. While it doesn't really address this as a primary function (and you still wouldn't allow say a Sorcerer to run around with a double sabre) it does allow a little more flexibility in a character choice of weapons.

 

Also I feel AC Swapping would need to go hand in hand with the ability to save keybinds and UI ability layouts (not just the frames but what ability goes where) to make the transition as seemless as possible.

[Glower]

Bioware please, do you want money for Advanced Class change? So make it!

[LordArtemis]

I will continue to monitor the thread as long as it is active, and update the list with any new suggestions or additions to the pro-con list as they are presented by folks.

 

If you guys don't mind though, I'm going to avoid the back the forth this time. I'll let all of you argue this time around, I'm staying out of it.

[Darth_Victus]

Hopefully never... so like.. 2020... March.. 15th.

 

I would have to agree with this.

 

When choosing your Advance Class it bluntly tells you that there is no going back once you have chosen.

 

What I do support is a Duel Talent system that allows you to have a secondary talent build within the same Advance Class you have chosen.

[branmakmuffin]

I would have to agree with this.

 

When choosing your Advance Class it bluntly tells you that there is no going back once you have chosen.

As pointed out already, and endlessly, just because that's the way it works now does not mean they can't change it. You can argue they shouldn't change it, but that's another kettle of lunar wriggler guts.

Edited October 22, 2013 by branmakmuffin

[TUXs]

I fail to see how refusing to accept the consequences of one's choice actually "improves" one's experience, if only I'd say it actually cheapens it.

 

There's no reason whatsoever for anyone who actually ENJOYS the core game experience NOT to re-roll the same class or mirror class, opposite AC... Or if there is, you have failed to show which reason that is thus far.

 

Consequences? LOL! It's a game...lighten up dude. It may not improve YOUR experience, but it clearly should be available to those who would like to try something new.

 

There is a reason - it's called TIME! The "core game experience" from AC to AC is IDENTICAL! You may like watching reruns, but not everyone wants to feel like they're wasting their time.

 

YOU have FAILED! You have failed to show ANY valid reason that this is a bad idea. You obviously don't agree with it, but that's not a "reason" not to add it.

 

There is NO NEGATIVE to allowing this, only positive! It would give those players on the fence about their sub, an alternative to quitting or starting over. This game has ever changing class dynamics - the AC choice should be fluid as well. It serves no purpose to not allow a switch - none!

[DOHboy]

Consequences? LOL! It's a game...lighten up dude. It may not improve YOUR experience, but it clearly should be available to those who would like to try something new.

 

There is a reason - it's called TIME! The "core game experience" from AC to AC is IDENTICAL! You may like watching reruns, but not everyone wants to feel like they're wasting their time.

 

YOU have FAILED! You have failed to show ANY valid reason that this is a bad idea. You obviously don't agree with it, but that's not a "reason" not to add it.

 

There is NO NEGATIVE to allowing this, only positive! It would give those players on the fence about their sub, an alternative to quitting or starting over. This game has ever changing class dynamics - the AC choice should be fluid as well. It serves no purpose to not allow a switch - none!

 

Time, is one of the reasons NOT to do it. This game is meant to be played over 2-5 years+ so saying you don't have "time" really isn't valid. I know people who love playing specific classes and have spun multiples of each (Shadow DPS, a shadow tank, AND a sage). Just because I know how to play a sentinel DPS does NOT mean I can simply jump into a guardian tank at lvl 55 and be even remotely productive considering I will have no gear, no concept of how to play the class, and will more likely be a hindrance rather than a help.

 

Going from a say a shadow tank to a sage healer (or vice versa) would be just as bad, as would commando to vanguard. Unless you feel you can be productive as a tank in crit/surge or a healer with mitigation. And also having NONE of the appropriate weapons, vanguard with an assault cannon doesn't really make much sense.

[TUXs]

Time, is one of the reasons NOT to do it. This game is meant to be played over 2-5 years+ so saying you don't have "time" really isn't valid. I know people who love playing specific classes and have spun multiples of each (Shadow DPS, a shadow tank, AND a sage). Just because I know how to play a sentinel DPS does NOT mean I can simply jump into a guardian tank at lvl 55 and be even remotely productive considering I will have no gear, no concept of how to play the class, and will more likely be a hindrance rather than a help.

 

Going from a say a shadow tank to a sage healer (or vice versa) would be just as bad, as would commando to vanguard. Unless you feel you can be productive as a tank in crit/surge or a healer with mitigation. And also having NONE of the appropriate weapons, vanguard with an assault cannon doesn't really make much sense.

 

This game doesn't have that type of an audience DOH. It's not a 2-5 year investment for casuals...hell, there are people in THIS thread bragging about having 19 alts...the games been out less than 2-years! What AC I play doesn't impact you at all!

 

As for gearing - if I swapped from Commando to Vanguard I could use 90% of my gear (mods/armorings/enhancements/augments/barrels)...but even if I couldn't use ANY of it, it would be 100% acceptable to me because that is an added cost of AC swap that people would need to be aware of. I'd rather take a night to gear my new Vanguard tank in 69/72's than to waste a few weeks/months getting him to where I'd need to do the exact same thing anyway.

[Suntaru]

Consequences? LOL! It's a game...lighten up dude. It may not improve YOUR experience, but it clearly should be available to those who would like to try something new.

 

There is a reason - it's called TIME! The "core game experience" from AC to AC is IDENTICAL! You may like watching reruns, but not everyone wants to feel like they're wasting their time.

 

YOU have FAILED! You have failed to show ANY valid reason that this is a bad idea. You obviously don't agree with it, but that's not a "reason" not to add it.

 

There is NO NEGATIVE to allowing this, only positive! It would give those players on the fence about their sub, an alternative to quitting or starting over. This game has ever changing class dynamics - the AC choice should be fluid as well. It serves no purpose to not allow a switch - none!

 

If you don't have the Time the way the game was originally designed, Maybe you should think about going to another game or quit MMO's in general rather than screw up SWTOR the way it is.

[TUXs]

If you don't have the Time the way the game was originally designed, Maybe you should think about going to another game or quit MMO's in general rather than screw up SWTOR the way it is.

 

Right - 2 million+ people have done exactly that - QUIT! Rather than suggesting casual players quit this game, like you are, I'm 100% in favor of giving them options that might get them to STAY here longer.

 

I'll ask you - how does this "screw up SWTOR"? Please keep in mind that F2P was never in the design of this game, so the whole "play how they designed it" argument is invalidated.

[Vhaegrant]

Time, is one of the reasons NOT to do it. This game is meant to be played over 2-5 years+ so saying you don't have "time" really isn't valid. I know people who love playing specific classes and have spun multiples of each (Shadow DPS, a shadow tank, AND a sage). Just because I know how to play a sentinel DPS does NOT mean I can simply jump into a guardian tank at lvl 55 and be even remotely productive considering I will have no gear, no concept of how to play the class, and will more likely be a hindrance rather than a help.

 

Going from a say a shadow tank to a sage healer (or vice versa) would be just as bad, as would commando to vanguard. Unless you feel you can be productive as a tank in crit/surge or a healer with mitigation. And also having NONE of the appropriate weapons, vanguard with an assault cannon doesn't really make much sense.

 

This argument can apply just as much to the ability to respecialise that already exists in the game.

Going from a Powertech DPS to a Powertech Tank requires a whole new set of gear and a new rotation for abilities.

 

There is a learning curve involved with playing any new set up and this applies just as much when switching to a new specialisation within the same AC as it would switching to one of the specialisations in the other AC. There is nothing new ort shocking in this and as it is an aspect many players can deal with I don't see it as being a particularly strong argument against allowing for AC swapping.

 

More of this applies to whether a player is considerate of others or not. If I choose to change my specialisation I go somewhere of slightly lower level (say Ilum) so I can work out how the new abilities work. I will have already gathered up a stash of comms to splash out on reasonable gear (or earnt the credits to buy mods off the GTN) so I will have a set of gear of reasonable quality. I will participate in some of the basic level 55 FPs to work out any kinks in specific rotations and then I will consider going into an OP or 55 HM FP. And again all of these steps are just as relevant to what can be done with respecialising now as it would be with an AC swap.

[Vhaegrant]

If you don't have the Time the way the game was originally designed, Maybe you should think about going to another game or quit MMO's in general rather than screw up SWTOR the way it is.

 

The game was also originally designed so you didn't get the sprint ability till you were in you low teens (so long ago now I've forgotten just what level it was 14 rings a bell). Didn't get your level 1 speeder until level 25, couldn't ride it in spaceports or spacestations. And there was no straight to ship option when getting the shuttle off a planet you had to go back through the spacestation again, on foot, uphill both ways.

 

MMOs more than any other game type are in a constant state of development.

Edited October 22, 2013 by Vhaegrant

[Glower]

Right - 2 million+ people have done exactly that - QUIT! Rather than suggesting casual players quit this game, like you are, I'm 100% in favor of giving them options that might get them to STAY here longer.

 

I'll ask you - how does this "screw up SWTOR"? Please keep in mind that F2P was never in the design of this game, so the whole "play how they designed it" argument is invalidated.

 

^this

[astrobearx]

Right - 2 million+ people have done exactly that - QUIT! Rather than suggesting casual players quit this game, like you are, I'm 100% in favor of giving them options that might get them to STAY here longer.

 

I'll ask you - how does this "screw up SWTOR"? Please keep in mind that F2P was never in the design of this game, so the whole "play how they designed it" argument is invalidated.

 

ah TUXs, preach on

[renegadeimp]

This game will never be perfect until they allow us to swim imo.

[branmakmuffin]

Just because I know how to play a sentinel DPS does NOT mean I can simply jump into a guardian tank at lvl 55 and be even remotely productive considering I will have no gear, no concept of how to play the class, and will more likely be a hindrance rather than a help.

But playing a DPS Guardian means you automagically know how to play a tank Guardian, right?

 

Apparently being able to switch between DPS and tank or DPS and heal (by changing trees) is a piece of cake but being able to switch from tank to heal (which would require AC change) is too mind-numbingly difficult to contemplate.

 

Edited October 22, 2013 by branmakmuffin

[Helig]

But playing a DPS Guardian means you automagically know how to play a tank Guardian, right?

 

Apparently being able to switch between DPS and tank or DPS and heal (by changing trees) is a piece of cake but being able to switch from tank to heal (which would require AC change) is too mind-numbingly difficult to contemplate.

 

Yup. Quite baffling, really.

[adamqd]

Right - 2 million+ people have done exactly that - QUIT! Rather than suggesting casual players quit this game, like you are, I'm 100% in favor of giving them options that might get them to STAY here longer.

 

I'll ask you - how does this "screw up SWTOR"? Please keep in mind that F2P was never in the design of this game, so the whole "play how they designed it" argument is invalidated.

 

This^^

 

I've "quit" several times, mostly because my time is limited and rolling another character in the same storyline, so I can experience a different group roll is impossible, AC switching would add a lot more to my experience.