ETA on Advanced Class change?

[TUXs]

And how many people would be rendered unhappy if AC change becomes reality?

 

Only those who suffer from extreme envy and wouldn't like other players to have enjoyment when it has NO IMPACT on them.

[LordArtemis]

Only those who suffer from extreme envy and wouldn't like other players to have enjoyment when it has NO IMPACT on them.

 

Well, I would be unhappy and I would not deny enjoyment to other players......

[Soluss]

Huh?! Have I EVER stated that? I have plenty of alts Soluss. My "argument" is, I don't care what AC YOU are...I just want you happy. If swapping AC's makes you happy, it's a minimal change that has no bearing on my ability to play or do anything.

 

There is no reason to swap ACs except to avoid rolling an alt. Its that simple.

[MSchuyler]

Only those who suffer from extreme envy and wouldn't like other players to have enjoyment when it has NO IMPACT on them.

 

Not true. It's not that simplistic (and what in Heaven's name does "envy" have to do with it?). It DOES have an impact. If the developers spend time implementing this A/C change that matters to only a few ardent proponents at the expense of development efforts that would please a vastly greater group of players, thus making them unhappy, then the impact would be much larger than that to be had from pleasing a small group of players.

 

It makes no sense for the developers to spend time on this relatively unimportant item of interest to only a few players when so many other important matters are vying for their attention ESPECIALLY considering the fact that you don't have buy-in from the player base. As is shown on this thread, there is considerable opposition. This change MIGHT make your life a tad bit easier if you want to explore the opposite A/C and are too lazy to roll and alt from 1-10 because it might take you a couple of hours, but it is not essential to game play and you won't quit the game of you don't get it.

 

Although you are reduced to the single argument to your opposition that it won't affect them (which is demonstrably not true, but never mind.) it also won't affect you if you don't get it. It's an enhancement you've decided you want, but it isn't necessary. You can still play the game without this institutionalized workaround.

 

So why do it? It diverts the developers from doing more important things. That's why you won't get it anytime soon.

Edited August 5, 2013 by MSchuyler

[Ratajack]

Yes, the only "role switch" AC permits that recpec'ing does not is between healing and tanking. So we are expected to believe that heal to tank (and vice versa) is mind-numbingly difficult when compared to DPS to heal (and vice versa) or DPS to tank (and vice versa)?

 

You neglect to mention that allowing class changes will give a single character access to all three roles, which is something the devs intentionally chose not to allow. This is why no class (AC) can currently fill all three roles. The devs intentionally designed the classes (AC's)so that no single character could fill all three roles at any time, not just at the same time.

 

As I have stated before, the devs can change the current mechanics any time they see fit, but they are under NO obligation to do simply because some people don't want to be bothered to use the mechanics already in place to allow them to play that other class. Thankfully, so far the devs have not changed their minds and the current mechanic remains as it was since before the game went live.

[TridusSWTOR]

You aren't the only one proposing compromises.

 

I agree with what you said except for one thing.

 

This is not really my personal belief but if you don't add a CC/Credit cost. Bioware can't profit from it, so it's a missed opportunity. I do love how you offered 2 changes to AC swap because you understand the reason for it.

 

Getting to level 50 is a fine requirement.

 

One thing I'm not sure about, how come the need for the completion to act 3? Most of these story quest don't really provide any daunting task or special skills to complete. What if someone just wanted to level up via PVP only? So, I just need to hear why you wanted to include act 3 as one of the reasons.

 

Pretty much everything else makes sense. Nice work.

[Soluss]

Only those who suffer from extreme envy and wouldn't like other players to have enjoyment when it has NO IMPACT on them.

 

Extreme envy? I think you are looking for another term. Envy would not apply here as there would be nothing to be envious about.

[TridusSWTOR]

You neglect to mention that allowing class changes will give a single character access to all three roles, which is something the devs intentionally chose not to allow. This is why no class (AC) can currently fill all three roles. The devs intentionally designed the classes (AC's)so that no single character could fill all three roles at any time, not just at the same time.

 

As I have stated before, the devs can change the current mechanics any time they see fit, but they are under NO obligation to do simply because some people don't want to be bothered to use the mechanics already in place to allow them to play that other class. Thankfully, so far the devs have not changed their minds and the current mechanic remains as it was since before the game went live.

 

How does an operative tank for raids. Please explain.

 

[TridusSWTOR]

Extreme envy? I think you are looking for another term. Envy would not apply here as there would be nothing to be envious about.

 

His point still stands. You still haven't been able to provide an answer to it.

[Soluss]

His point still stands. You still haven't been able to provide an answer to it.

 

Nor have you. The only reason to swap ACs is to avoid rolling alts. The devs designed the game to roll alts as part of playing the game. EA makes a ton of money off of alts. Many have told you why we are against it. Dismissing our opinions doesn't make your opinion any better.

[MSchuyler]

His point still stands. You still haven't been able to provide an answer to it.

 

His point is on wobbly legs barely able to withstand the force of gravity. The answer has been provided a number of times. It's just that you won't acknowledge it. It's an extremely weak argument if all you can come up with is "It won't affect you and...and....and....you're envious!" Envious of what, precisely? That isn't even an argument. It's desperation.

[Ratajack]

How does an operative tank for raids. Please explain.

 

 

Where did I say ANYTHING about operatives tanking? Where did I say anything about EVERY character being able to tank or heal?

 

I said that the devs intentionally designed the classes such that no single character could fill all three roles AT ANY TIME, not just at the same time. I have yet to see a character in ANY game be both the tank and healer for a group at the same time.

 

Allowing class changes will negate the devs intentional design not to allow a single character to fill all three roles (AT ANY TIME) by allowing some(just to avoid confusion) characters to fill all three roles, even if they cannot fill all three roles at the same time.

[TUXs]

Nor have you. The only reason to swap ACs is to avoid rolling alts. The devs designed the game to roll alts as part of playing the game. EA makes a ton of money off of alts. Many have told you why we are against it. Dismissing our opinions doesn't make your opinion any better.

 

EA can make a ton of money off offering AC swaps as well. I haven't heard one good reason not to allow this. Not one.

 

As I've said prior to this, some players have no desire to roll an alt. This would be an option for them. Rolling an alt isn't nearly as fun as you pretend it to be imo, so I can see the value this would bring.

 

I don't dismiss any of your opinions...I just think they're ridiculous excuses to not implement this.

[Ratajack]

EA can make a ton of money off offering AC swaps as well. I haven't heard one good reason not to allow this. Not one.

 

As I've said prior to this, some players have no desire to roll an alt. This would be an option for them. Rolling an alt isn't nearly as fun as you pretend it to be imo, so I can see the value this would bring.

 

I don't dismiss any of your opinions...I just think they're ridiculous excuses to not implement this.

 

Lack of desire to make use of an already existing mechanic enabling a player to play that other class is a ridiculous excuse for allowing class changes.

 

I don't want to go to work this week and do exactly the same things I did last week. Maybe if I beg my boss and clamor enough, he'll pay me anyway since I already put forth the effort and did the same work last week that I would do this week.

 

I know this is a game and not work, but the principle is the same.

[Andryah]

I haven't heard one good reason not to allow this. Not one.

 

Here TUXs.. try this one for size:

 

Because it's their game and they choose not to.

 

Since they own the game, not you.... any reason they choose is good enough by definition (and they don't even have to share the reasons with you).

 

AND you can't do squat about it accept attack every reason offered up by other players (at your request).....just because you want your own way on this topic.

[MSchuyler]

EA can make a ton of money off offering AC swaps as well. I haven't heard one good reason not to allow this. Not one.

 

Because it is not simply a matter of "allowing" it as if you could flip a switch to turn it on. It must be implemented. It would be a diversion of developer resources to implement this instead of devoting said resources to more important changes and additions that would affect more people. Only a few people have expressed interest in this. The player base as a whole is not interested, therefore it would be a waste of valuable and limited developer resources to implement it. It just isn't necessary.

Edited August 5, 2013 by MSchuyler

[ekwalizer]

I agree with what you said except for one thing.

 

This is not really my personal belief but if you don't add a CC/Credit cost. Bioware can't profit from it, so it's a missed opportunity. I do love how you offered 2 changes to AC swap because you understand the reason for it.

 

Getting to level 50 is a fine requirement.

 

One thing I'm not sure about, how come the need for the completion to act 3? Most of these story quest don't really provide any daunting task or special skills to complete. What if someone just wanted to level up via PVP only? So, I just need to hear why you wanted to include act 3 as one of the reasons.

 

Pretty much everything else makes sense. Nice work.

 

I was originally going to put that into parenthesis, but I forgot to.

 

But legitimately, because it isn't hard to do, nor do you have to be 50 to complete them. It's only 3-4 missions per planet and most people do those anyway. IMO, only, I just don't think it is too much to ask that people complete their story. But I certainly wouldn't let that point become a show stopper.

 

Point taken on the CC issue.

Edited August 5, 2013 by ekwalizer

[ekwalizer]

Because it is not simply a matter of "allowing" it as if you could flip a switch to turn it on. It must be implemented. It would be a diversion of developer resources to implement this instead of devoting said resources to more important changes and additions that would affect more people. Only a few people have expressed interest in this. The player base as a whole is not interested, therefore it would be a waste of valuable and limited developer resources to implement it. It just isn't necessary.

 

We also don't know what happens "behind the scenes" when you select your AC. If your character sheet (on the code side) is dynamically modified, there could truly be no undoing it.

[TUXs]

Here TUXs.. try this one for size:

 

Because it's their game and they choose not to.

 

Since they own the game, not you.... any reason they choose is good enough by definition (and they don't even have to share the reasons with you).

 

AND you can't do squat about it accept attack every reason offered up by other players (at your request).....just because you want your own way on this topic.

I don't want "my own way" - I didn't request this, but I sure as hell support those players who would like it added as an option. I see absolutely no reason that this shouldn't be allowed.

 

There hasn't been ANY reason given as to why this shouldn't be possible. That's what I'm asking for...not why it's not done (like it's their game), but reasons why this wouldn't be a beneficial change. Nobody has offered a valid reason yet...just silly reasons like "they'll suck at their new AC" and whatever nonsense.

 

Just because I support a players idea, doesn't mean I'd even use it...but this would be a good addition to SWTOR and I'd love to see it added for players.

 

Also, the excuse "because there's other things to do", is fine reasoning as to why they can't do it NOW...but there's no reason this shouldn't be offered in the future.

[Ratajack]

I don't want "my own way" - I didn't request this, but I sure as hell support those players who would like it added as an option. I see absolutely no reason that this shouldn't be allowed.

 

There hasn't been ANY reason given as to why this shouldn't be possible. That's what I'm asking for...not why it's not done (like it's their game), but reasons why this wouldn't be a beneficial change. Nobody has offered a valid reason yet...just silly reasons like "they'll suck at their new AC" and whatever nonsense.

 

Just because I support a players idea, doesn't mean I'd even use it...but this would be a good addition to SWTOR and I'd love to see it added for players.

 

Also, the excuse "because there's other things to do", is fine reasoning as to why they can't do it NOW...but there's no reason this shouldn't be offered in the future.

 

There have been many valid reasons posted ad nauseum. You just choose to dismiss and ignore those reasons and attack those against allowing class changes.

[branmakmuffin]

Here TUXs.. try this one for size:

 

Because it's their game and they choose not to.

And it's their game, they can change it if they want. You, like so many others in this thread, are engaging in "It's always been like this so it cannot be changed" thinking.

Edited August 5, 2013 by branmakmuffin

[LordArtemis]

I'm not sure that we are the ones to judge what would be proper reasons to allow and deny. I would assume we are not exactly the best group of unbiased folks with respect to this matter.

 

I think almost all reasons pro and con, at least the seemingly reasonable ones are valid to those who presented them. Sure, each side will discount the reasons across the fence.

 

Can a reasonable person really say that if this is implemented there will not be a sizable portion of players that will be upset?

 

By the same token can that reasonable person also not concede that what other players do does not effect them personally in most cases, certainly not in this case?

 

That's the problem here....this is not a black or white situation. It is more a network of greys, different shades that confuse the issue but keep it fed.

 

So we run in circles....my way or the highway, no desire to find any kind of compromise.

 

Success in this discussion sits in the middle...you know, the place where most folks refuse to tread. Most...not all.

[Ratajack]

And it's their game, they can change it if they want. You, like so many others in this thread, are engaging in "It's always been like this so it cannot be changed" thinking.

 

That poster said nothing of the kind. That poster said:

 

"Because it's their game and they choose not to.

 

Since they own the game, not you.... any reason they choose is good enough by definition (and they don't even have to share the reasons with you)."

 

Yes, it is their game and they can change it IF they want, but they are under NO obligation to do so. They have chosen not to allow class changes.

[ekwalizer]

And it's their game, they can change it if they want. You, like so many others in this thread, are engaging in "It's always been like this so it cannot be changed" thinking.

 

Murder has been an unlawful action for most of human history. By your logic we should allow that too.

 

That is a straw-man argument but it does illustrate the ignorance of your assertion. Just because something can be changed doesn't mean that it should be.

 

20 years of conventional MMO wisdom says that you don't allow class change. You can play semantics if you like and say it's just an AC change - but your AC is your class and you all know it.

Edited August 5, 2013 by ekwalizer

[Ratajack]

By the same token can that reasonable person also not concede that what other players do does not effect them personally in most cases, certainly not in this case?

 

 

I will concede that what a single individual does will likely not affect most players. We are not talking about a single individual changing their class, though. We are talking about allowing EVERYONE to change their class, even if some choose not to do so.

 

If half the game's population elects to change class, that means that an average of one out of every two players that I (or any other player) meet while playing will have changed their class. Will every one of them know how to play that new class? No. Will every one of them be "bad" at that new class? No. Will the numbers of "bad" players be increased? Yes.

 

The point is that allowing class changes WILL affect everyone in the game, regardless of what a few posters would have us believe.

Edited August 5, 2013 by Ratajack