ETA on Advanced Class change?

[Lyshar]

Some people should start reading more instead of just rushing to attack people based on a single line of text. If you tried to read my posts it should be clear that I am sharing my opinion, am giving examples as to how and why.

 

So maybe you should see if you can answer the questions asked to someone I replied to before the post you chose to pick one line from to reply to.

 

Your attacks are not constructive, you're not making a point, you're not defending one. If you read my posts you might not have made your posts or made them differently, unless of course you're some of the people I have talked about that need the restrictions put on them. That last part does sound likely, as obviously you fear requirements to being allowed an AC change.

 

Make a more constructive post and you might make me yield, but from your replies here I doubt you can convince me to change my standpoint. And I won't repeat what I wrote before to give you food to respond to, if you want to be constructive flip back a few pages and read up.

 

Nonconstructive posts can't make you win a discussion, only derail it into not being worth the bits it's taking up, constructive ones can win people over and draw attention of devs... Which do you want?

Edited August 5, 2013 by Lyshar

[TUXs]

Some people should start reading more instead of just rushing to attack people based on a single line of text. If you tried to read my posts it should be clear that I am sharing my opinion, am giving examples as to how and why.

 

So maybe you should see if you can answer the questions asked to someone I replied to before the post you chose to pick one line from to reply to.

 

Your attacks are not constructive, you're not making a point, you're not defending one. If you read my posts you might not have made your posts or made them differently, unless of course you're some of the people I have talked about that need the restrictions put on them.

 

Make a more constructive post and you might make me yield, but from your replies here I doubt you can convince me to change my standpoint. And I won't repeat what I wrote before to give you food to respond to, if you want to be constructive flip back a few pages and read up.

 

Nonconstructive posts can't make you win a discussion, only derail it into not being worth the bits it's taking up, constructive ones can win people over and draw attention of devs... Which do you want?

 

I am making a point (which is more than I can say for this reply) - my point is....

 

MY AC DOES NOT IMPACT YOU AT ALL! You claimed it did, you're wrong.

 

My point is also that if someone would like to change AC's, I'm all for it. It's really no different than that player switching to another toon, except it'll be done less often. I can switch from DPS to heals for PvP or Ops right now, but you think I'll somehow not be able to adjust to a tank? That's silly...it's not a big deal...not at all.

 

So...your turn...offer something "constructive". You claim you have "examples" - I'm not interested in researching your post history - offer them again. Give me ONE reason this would be "bad" for the game.

[LordArtemis]

The meaning of my AC does impact me, however. I want my choice of class to mean something as I level in it. The more meaningless it is, the less enthusiastic I am about having the job.

[TUXs]

The meaning of my AC does impact me, however. I want my choice of class to mean something as I level in it. The more meaningless it is, the less enthusiastic I am about having the job.

 

It's a game, not a job...don't be so serious. If you wanna restrict your choices to being "meaningful", I can respect that, go for it...that's just not a rational reason to disallow AC respecs for other players.

[branmakmuffin]

My point is also that if someone would like to change AC's, I'm all for it. It's really no different than that player switching to another toon, except it'll be done less often. I can switch from DPS to heals for PvP or Ops right now, but you think I'll somehow not be able to adjust to a tank? That's silly...it's not a big deal...not at all.

Yes, the only "role switch" AC permits that recpec'ing does not is between healing and tanking. So we are expected to believe that heal to tank (and vice versa) is mind-numbingly difficult when compared to DPS to heal (and vice versa) or DPS to tank (and vice versa)?

[LordArtemis]

It's a game, not a job...don't be so serious. If you wanna restrict your choices to being "meaningful", I can respect that, go for it...that's just not a rational reason to disallow AC respecs for other players.

 

...now you have to know that I never said it was. I have made it clear on multiple occasions that, though I do not care for AC change for reasons stated, I would not deny it for other players if the majority desired it.

 

I think I have been more than reasonable to the pro AC change side. I was simply commenting on what I felt was a truth...that for me AC change would definitely effect me. I can't speak for others naturally.

 

Frankly I am already effected by how little the choice has meaning at present, other than some pedantic in game statement that rings hollow to me.

 

If they want ACs to be treated like full classes they should have done a better job of designing them that way. Right now they barely qualify as it is IMO.

 

I can say I see an apple as an orange, but it does not make it so no matter now many times I say it....I could even hang a sign on the apple saying "warning, this is an orange" and it would still be an apple.

 

We need to choose our AC at level 1 and end all this foolishness IMO.

[branmakmuffin]

I think I have been more than reasonable to the pro AC change side. I was simply commenting on what I felt was a truth...that for me AC change would definitely effect me. I can't speak for others naturally.

If you are saying AC change would affect you because you would allow it to bother you (or pick a less strong word than "bother" if that's an unfair characterization), then, yes, AC change affects you. But other than that, the only way it would affect you is if you were forced to change your characters' ACs.

[LordArtemis]

If you are saying AC change would affect you because you would allow it to bother you (or pick a less strong word than "bother" if that's an unfair characterization), then, yes, AC change affects you. But other than that, the only way it would affect you is if you were forced to change your characters' ACs.

 

It would not likely affect me in any other way than making the AC even more meaningless than it already is. I would naturally accept this...as they have made this decision with many aspects of the game. But I would not be happy about it.

 

Anyone elses choices in the game, short of stealing from me or griefing me directly does not effect me directly as far as I am aware. But design decisions do have an effect on me.

 

At this time, I do not feel that if this change was added it would cause me to dislike the game so much I would leave it. There is too much that appeals to me in the game at present to allow something like this to cause me to walk away from it.

[branmakmuffin]

It would not likely affect me in any other way than making the AC even more meaningless than it already is. I would naturally accept this...as they have made this decision with many aspects of the game. But I would not be happy about it.

But that's a matter of personal feelings. Class in a class-based game is about arbitrary limitations and restrictions. To me, class, advanced or otherwise, means absolutely nothing already.

 

Anyone elses choices in the game, short of stealing from me or griefing me directly does not effect me directly as far as I am aware. But design decisions do have an effect on me.

Again, only to the extent you allow it. I don't like class-based systems, but that's what most games are, so I just play them as they are.

[LordArtemis]

But that's a matter of personal feelings. Class in a class-based game is about arbitrary limitations and restrictions. To me, class, advanced or otherwise, means absolutely nothing already.

 

 

Again, only to the extent you allow it. I don't like class-based systems, but that's what most games are, so I just play them as they are.

 

Well, I certainly understand your viewpoint, but I'm not sure what you are contending here. One is likely bothered by eating poop. One does not necessarily allow themselves or forbid themselves to be bothered by eating poop....they are likely bothered by it, period. Some things are found as trivial by some, important by others.

 

I realize that different things bother different people. But that discomfort is not qualified based on a lack of understanding or common ground. It does not require qualification because it is personal.

 

All of this is just naturally my viewpoint and is not meant to be the last word.

 

BTW, I also do not care for class systems, or more specifically ones that are not designed like the one in SWG, which I really liked. No levels, you gain experience by using weapons that pertain to your preference. I also do not care for gear based progression.

Edited August 5, 2013 by LordArtemis

[branmakmuffin]

Well, I certainly understand your viewpoint, but I'm not sure what you are contending here. One is likely bothered by eating poop.

And that has what, exactly, to do with playing a computer game? "Eating poop" and "disliked features in a computer game" are on a rather different level of "unpleasantness." Concepts matter, but so does degree.

 

I realize that different things bother different people. But that discomfort is not qualified based on a lack of understanding or common ground. It does not require qualification because it is personal.

Exactly. AC change will only bother you to the extent you allow it to bother you. Just as class-based systems bother me only to the extent I allow them to bother me.

 

BTW, I also do not care for class systems, or more specifically ones that are not designed like the one in SWG, which I really liked. No levels, you gain experience by using weapons that pertain to your preference. I also do not care for gear based progression.

And on that tangent, I agree 100%.

Edited August 5, 2013 by branmakmuffin

[Lyshar]

I am making a point (which is more than I can say for this reply) - my point is....

 

MY AC DOES NOT IMPACT YOU AT ALL! You claimed it did, you're wrong.

 

My point is also that if someone would like to change AC's, I'm all for it. It's really no different than that player switching to another toon, except it'll be done less often. I can switch from DPS to heals for PvP or Ops right now, but you think I'll somehow not be able to adjust to a tank? That's silly...it's not a big deal...not at all.

 

So...your turn...offer something "constructive". You claim you have "examples" - I'm not interested in researching your post history - offer them again. Give me ONE reason this would be "bad" for the game.

 

Because you didn't even read the entire post you replied to, if you did you might have wondered what was written before, if you didn't conclude from that one. But you chose to only reply to one line to put me into the bad light, removing the context. You probably did that because you didn't see where the rest was coming from, which is what you are asking for now.

 

Like I told someone else before, maybe it wouldn't count for him, (probably wouldn't count for me, but I don't plan on changing AC anyway), but that doesn't mean it counts for everyone. There are many idiots playing, people that might not even learn the full extends of their advanced class as it is, if those people just switch advanced class they probably won't even check the skills they are missing for their new advanced class, let alone have a chance to really learn them.

 

You'll get people not checking gear, assassins/shadows with single blades, sentinels/marauders naked except for just a mainhand weapon (not even an offhand), juggernauts in non-tanking medium armor queuing as tanks. Snipers with rifles, as one of the trooper advanced classes that are supposed to use the big cannons, etc. You may check it, I would check it, a good number of people wouldn't check it but only ask when it's too late and whine when undoubtedly made fun of.

 

I asked what if there was a big warning pop-up when switching AC, only 1 person replied, seemingly on my side anyway.

I asked what if there was a requirement to have one of the target AC or it's counterpart for the other faction at level 50 or 55, no reply whatsoever. And just to be clear, that can be a character ever had and now deleted.

 

When those simple questions can't be responded to, how can you make much of a point at all. I just see people saying "I can handle it!" or "The majority can handle it!" If you say you can, I won't say you can't unless you leave me an impression that you can't, but if you say the majority can then I am going to laugh at you inside. I have seen way too many idiots to assume that a mindless implementation will not backfire, I count on a mindless implementation to severely hurt the game.

 

I don't care what AC you are or if you change yours at some point, I just hope the ignore list can be long enough to throw everyone unprepared on it, if this is to be ever implemented without serious thought from the devs.

[MSchuyler]

This entire discussion (and others like it) over a fairly minor point illustrates the delusion that the player base, such that it is, has the actual power to affect change in the game. All this philosophizing is moot because all the developers will say (assuming anyone actually reads these forums) is, "There is some sentiment that we ought to allow A/C changes." And some other developer will say, "You know we discussed this in Beta and decided against it for the following reasons, which are still valid." and UNLESS you get a developer to say, "Those reasons are no longer valid and this is why" AND convince all the other developers to this reasoning, it won't change. In other words, you need an advocate on the inside. You need to convince a developer that this really matters.

 

And the thing is, we don't know all the variables. We know what we want, and that's about it. Some of us have decided this "ought to be easy to program." therefore the development time must be trivial, therefore they should do it, but we really don't know that. Software development is a complex task and what seems trivial to us could be a major feat of implementation. Those who doubt this ought to read "I Sing the Body Electronic" by Fred Moody (a friend of mine. His kids and my kids were friends in school.) He spent a year with Microsoft developers when they put together a CD-ROM product. He shows how little tiny details can be so difficult to implement. It's fascinating to see the inside story of how software development works. My guess is few of us have ever done it and we have no idea what "I want this!" means in terms of getting it to work. There's one guy over in Community who has decided the way to "save SWTOR" is to implement "nine new planets ASAP!"

 

In other words, what Eric Musco says is irrelevant. He's not a developer. People have been disappointed before by what Eric Musco said, even to the point of rage quitting over it. We get so little information from BW that we hang on every word, twisting it this way and that, and more importantly, interpreting a phrase to our advantage when there is more than one way to interpret it.

 

Now the idea that if this is implemented it won't affect you one way or another is wrong and short sighted. You are just thinking of game play which is not all there is. The developers have a limited budget for changes. Who knows what this is? I don't, but I know they do not have unlimited funds. They must prioritize what's more important to implement. Last cycle the Cartel Market was important to them because it provided a way to "monetize F2P." We here shouted and screamed at the unfairness and greed of it all, but you know what? The Cartel market is still here and you can use it or not; you don't have to. If you don't use it did the CM affect you?

 

Sure it did. That diversion meant that 2.4 isn't here yet. Whatever is prioritized pushes something else lower on the priority list. So the bottom line is, do you want A/C class change implemented or do you want 2.4 to ship on time? I don't know that those two are equivalent: likely not, but the idea is sound. There ARE priorities and choosing one delays the other.

 

But we can't lose sight of the original issue. We are not tasked with deciding. Our only power is to subscribe or not. Bioware's decisions on change will always be driven by "the most bang per buck." Now think of all the things you are aware of that "need attention" in the game. New Content? More PvP? More WZ? More story content? Fix Darth Jadus? Make the hoodies pull down? Allow more people at a time on speeders so you can transport your group? Nine more planets ASAP?

 

WHERE does A/C change fit in your list? If you don't get it will you quit? If they implement it instead of {your favorite change goes here} will you quit? A/C change is low on the priority list and doesn't really matter. You don't need it to play the game. Don't look for it any time soon.

Edited August 5, 2013 by MSchuyler

[LordArtemis]

And that has what, exactly, to do with playing a computer game? "Eating poop" and "disliked features in a computer game" are on a rather different level of "unpleasantness." Concepts matter, but so does degree.

 

 

Exactly. AC change will only bother you to the extent you allow it to bother you. Just as class-based systems bother me only to the extent I allow them to bother me.

 

 

And on that tangent, I agree 100%.

 

Well, out of respect for your viewpoint I think it would be best to simply say fair enough and leave it at that.

[branmakmuffin]

Well, out of respect for your viewpoint I think it would be best to simply say fair enough and leave it at that.

I suppose. If we must.

[LordArtemis]

I suppose. If we must.

 

hehe. I'm sure we will find something else to discuss shortly.....

[branmakmuffin]

hehe. I'm sure we will find something else to discuss shortly.....

Galactic peace: necessary at any cost? The debate continues.

[TUXs]

Because you didn't even read the entire post you replied to, if you did you might have wondered what was written before, if you didn't conclude from that one. But you chose to only reply to one line to put me into the bad light, removing the context. You probably did that because you didn't see where the rest was coming from, which is what you are asking for now.

 

Like I told someone else before, maybe it wouldn't count for him, (probably wouldn't count for me, but I don't plan on changing AC anyway), but that doesn't mean it counts for everyone. There are many idiots playing, people that might not even learn the full extends of their advanced class as it is, if those people just switch advanced class they probably won't even check the skills they are missing for their new advanced class, let alone have a chance to really learn them.

 

You'll get people not checking gear, assassins/shadows with single blades, sentinels/marauders naked except for just a mainhand weapon (not even an offhand), juggernauts in non-tanking medium armor queuing as tanks. Snipers with rifles, as one of the trooper advanced classes that are supposed to use the big cannons, etc. You may check it, I would check it, a good number of people wouldn't check it but only ask when it's too late and whine when undoubtedly made fun of.

 

I asked what if there was a big warning pop-up when switching AC, only 1 person replied, seemingly on my side anyway.

I asked what if there was a requirement to have one of the target AC or it's counterpart for the other faction at level 50 or 55, no reply whatsoever. And just to be clear, that can be a character ever had and now deleted.

 

When those simple questions can't be responded to, how can you make much of a point at all. I just see people saying "I can handle it!" or "The majority can handle it!" If you say you can, I won't say you can't unless you leave me an impression that you can't, but if you say the majority can then I am going to laugh at you inside. I have seen way too many idiots to assume that a mindless implementation will not backfire, I count on a mindless implementation to severely hurt the game.

 

I don't care what AC you are or if you change yours at some point, I just hope the ignore list can be long enough to throw everyone unprepared on it, if this is to be ever implemented without serious thought from the devs.

 

Your entire argument against it boils down to "someone may not know how to play their new advanced class"? This isn't rocket surgery...it's a video game.

 

Dude, that happens every DAY as it is. Good players will still be good, bad players will still be bad. It'll take 2-days tops for semi-decent players to be semi-decent players again. This is no different than people playing on alts or swapping skill trees as it is.

 

I find it silly that you'd /ignore someone for swapping ACs...I think that's very petty...but I support your desire to do so. I happen to believe that the players who would do this will be the players who will excel in their class, no matter which AC they select. They'll have a renewed interest in the game and they'll be anxious to get their new gear and play their new AC. I'd group with that type of player any day over someone who thinks it's any of their business what I do.

[TridusSWTOR]

Your entire argument against it boils down to "someone may not know how to play their new advanced class"? This isn't rocket surgery...it's a video game.

 

Dude, that happens every DAY as it is. Good players will still be good, bad players will still be bad. It'll take 2-days tops for semi-decent players to be semi-decent players again. This is no different than people playing on alts or swapping skill trees as it is.

 

I find it silly that you'd /ignore someone for swapping ACs...I think that's very petty...but I support your desire to do so. I happen to believe that the players who would do this will be the players who will excel in their class, no matter which AC they select. They'll have a renewed interest in the game and they'll be anxious to get their new gear and play their new AC. I'd group with that type of player any day over someone who thinks it's any of their business what I do.

 

I agree 100%. Very well put, with respec options now we are probably dealing with people who are trying to learn something new all the time. It never ruined my experience though, we all had to learn it at some point.

[Soluss]

Your entire argument against it boils down to "someone may not know how to play their new advanced class"? This isn't rocket surgery...it's a video game.

 

Dude, that happens every DAY as it is. Good players will still be good, bad players will still be bad. It'll take 2-days tops for semi-decent players to be semi-decent players again. This is no different than people playing on alts or swapping skill trees as it is.

 

I find it silly that you'd /ignore someone for swapping ACs...I think that's very petty...but I support your desire to do so. I happen to believe that the players who would do this will be the players who will excel in their class, no matter which AC they select. They'll have a renewed interest in the game and they'll be anxious to get their new gear and play their new AC. I'd group with that type of player any day over someone who thinks it's any of their business what I do.

 

Just as your entire argument for it boils down to " I don't want to roll an alt"

[ekwalizer]

What does MY AC mean to you? "Means to other people"???? Explain that...what do you mean? What does it matter to you? Do you run around Fleet and tell people what AC they should take? Mind your own business...seriously...my AC doesn't matter ONE BIT to you or however you play this game. It doesn't matter if I grind from 1-55 or swap at 55...neither have ANY effect on you and you can't tell the difference.

 

See, to most people, this is just a game. They play to enjoy themselves. If they want to swap AC's, I feel they should be allowed to because it DOES NOT EFFECT ME AT ALL! Let me restate that...what AC you pick, whether you respec ACs or learn from the ground up, has NO IMPACT on my playing at all. NONE! Zero!

 

I'll play your game Tux. Last week you made a point to state that Assault VG and Assault Mando trees were "EXACTLY" the same. I pointed out the differences to you and you changed your tune to "similar".

 

If you actually played both classes as that spec regularly, you would have never claimed that they were exactly the same. Because they are not. It is most noticeable in your HiB reset abilities. VG have instant abilities and Mando have channels. That is pretty darn noticeable.

 

I would be able to tell if you are fumbling trying to figure out your new class.

[TUXs]

Just as your entire argument for it boils down to " I don't want to roll an alt"

 

Huh?! Have I EVER stated that? I have plenty of alts Soluss. My "argument" is, I don't care what AC YOU are...I just want you happy. If swapping AC's makes you happy, it's a minimal change that has no bearing on my ability to play or do anything.

[TUXs]

I'll play your game Tux. Last week you made a point to state that Assault VG and Assault Mando trees were "EXACTLY" the same. I pointed out the differences to you and you changed your tune to "similar".

 

If you actually played both classes as that spec regularly, you would have never claimed that they were exactly the same. Because they are not. It is most noticeable in your HiB reset abilities. VG have instant abilities and Mando have channels. That is pretty darn noticeable.

 

I would be able to tell if you are fumbling trying to figure out your new class.

 

I have both and play Assault for both in PvP. They play similar enough that swapping from one to the other is minimal at best. I have a harder time switching to Gunnery to PvP with than I do swapping characters.

[ekwalizer]

Yea, not only is that not reasonable. It's one sided.

 

So far I'm the only one who comprised here. I used to be for:

Unlimited AC change per character

High CC/Credit cost for each use.

1 Month cool down.

Allowed at 11-55.

 

Then I changed my stance to:

AC change 2 times per character

High CC/Credit cost for each use

Allowed at 45-55.

 

You pretty much have offered nothing as far as incentive for the other side. I would maybe agree to a level 35 de-level and add in your bonuses. That's pretty much it though, since you offered me nothing.

 

I would support the following:

 

Option 1: Status Quo

Option 2: One free respec at level 50 for subscribers with the completion of Act 3, retroactive. Following a 30 day CD from initial respec allow One free respec at current game max level for subscribers. Maximum total 2 respecs per lifetime of toon for subscribers separated by no less than 30 days. NO exceptions, no further debate, no F2P respec options.

 

This way, if you hate your AC at 50(or 55 if you are already there), you can go to the alternate AC. If it turns out, that you hate that more, you can go back. Once you have experienced both at "end game", you no longer have any argument to make for further respec.

 

You aren't the only one proposing compromises.

[ekwalizer]

Huh?! Have I EVER stated that? I have plenty of alts Soluss. My "argument" is, I don't care what AC YOU are...I just want you happy. If swapping AC's makes you happy, it's a minimal change that has no bearing on my ability to play or do anything.

 

And how many people would be rendered unhappy if AC change becomes reality?