Healing IS TOTALLY ouf of control

[scraycroft]

I would rather interrupts be more effective and on shorter CDs for melee than have the plethora of stun. you can kinda see where the game tried to be balanced about that: certain classes were given short interrupt CDs (watchman sent, tactics VG) and other classes were given good CC (shadows, ops, snipers).

 

the problems, as I see them, are that EVERY CLASS HAS A LOT OF STUNS or can supplement a lack thereof with grenades that they don't even need to commit to cybertech to use.

 

another problem (in 2.0) is that every class now seems to have an activated abil to ignore interrupts, cc, or both (in addition to resolve).

 

lastly, scoundrels/operatives were granted a massive advantage over every other healing AC because they rarely, if ever, need to cast at 50/55. thus, there's nothing to interrupt. and when they really need to cast (30% or below), they get buffed automatically. the upshot/relevance here is that you need stuns for ops/scouns in order to effectively kill them (unless there's like 3 ppl or 2 really good ones on them -- that's out of whack with the other 2 healing classes)

 

it feels less like rock, paper, scissors than a series of patchwork, ad hoc changes made to appease the individual class rather than the rps relationships as a whole.

 

I agree, but i don't see how any of this is an issue with healing being OP.

[Astarica]

I would rather interrupts be more effective and on shorter CDs for melee than have the plethora of stun. you can kinda see where the game tried to be balanced about that: certain classes were given short interrupt CDs (watchman sent, tactics VG) and other classes were given good CC (shadows, ops, snipers).

 

it feels less like rock, paper, scissors than a series of patchwork, ad hoc changes made to appease the individual class rather than the rps relationships as a whole.

 

It's always been rather ad-hoc. Why do some classes have 8s interrupt and some classes have 12s? Well originally SW archtype interrupte used rage, except they do not now. Originally Commandoes don't even have an interrupt. I guess the class was just so powerful originally that if they had an interrupt they'd be unstoppable? Why is a healing debuff, one of the crucial debuffs to defeat a healer, is on a Marauder and a Sniper? They're both reasonably strong classes, and it doesn't even make much sense. If the idea is that you want to use melee to defeat healers then putting it on Sniper makes no sense, and if the point is you're supposed to use ranged... well, that makes no sense to begin with but then Marauder shouldn't have healing debuff either.

 

It wouldn't hurt if we standardize some of the abilities. Put all interrupt on 8s (or 12s). Get rid of healing debuffs. Get rid of cybertech grenades in WZs. Standardize the number of escape abilities for healers. It won't solve everything but it'd at least put things on a relative even ground and we can figure out what to do from there.

Edited May 14, 2013 by Astarica

[Laforet]

Hello, im a healer. Healing is dumb heres why:

 

Operative healing: sub 30% cockspam with no energy and no TA cost is retarded, sub 30% cockspam should be an automate crit but have at least a 10 second cooldown, AT LEAST.

 

Operative roll, while bread and butter for dps, is too much for medic OP, its dumb. Put a CD on roll and make a high tier ability on concealment remove it. Healer roll = 10 sec cd, dps roll = zero cd, "they see me rolling".

 

Operative energy management. Too easy, he never stops, dumb mode.

 

Sorc instant buffed AoE puddle thingie is not nice. Just nerf the AoE superspam and then you can think about tuning sorc heals. Seriously? Instant AoE puddle spam? And you guys thought bubble stun was bad. ROFL. Instant AoE puddle is as bad as bubble stun and should be adressed, IF NOT TOTALLY REMOVED FROM PVP.

 

Merc is fine, learn to play. =D. Electro net is best skill universe.

Edited May 14, 2013 by Laforet

[Baedwulf]

you need at least 3 people on a healer.

 

Stopped reading here...

 

Clearly healing doesn't need a nerf but that character that is marinating between your keyboard and your desk chair needs a buff.

Edited May 14, 2013 by Baedwulf

[Asvarduil]

If you need three people to take down a healer, chances are the healer is being Guarded by some tank, and you're getting taunted probably by the same tank. Solution: stun the healer, LoS the tank, kill the tank.

 

tl;dr: It's simple. Kill the Batman.

[Astarica]

I remember seeing this interview to WoW PvP developer asking why is there so many silence type skills and their answer was "Interrupts don't stop healing when all heals are instant cast".

 

That's kind of the same problem we're into right now with Sage/Scoundrel. You can be fighting one and have no meaningful spells to interrupt at all (Healing Trance is very risky to interrupt due to how fast it ticks and the inevitable big heal that will follow after). You might still be able to beat them but there's certainly no strategy involved on the part of the healer when he's just rotating a bunch of spells that cannot be meaingfully interrupted (or at all). At least Commandoes still have to cast spells that you can see to do their job.

Edited May 14, 2013 by Astarica

[BeatdownPatrol]

I know I am pissing in the wind here, but let's keep this objective rather than going with the typical ZOMGOP/L2P nonsense.

 

I play DPS and I DO coordinate with others, but there is no doubt that healing right now really is over the top. All you have to do is look at the healing numbers at the end of the matches. Average healers are doing 500k in heals, Good healers are doing 800k, and Ballers are doing >1 mil, clean. A couple of average healers are manageable, but 3 Average healers can be very difficult. A couple of Good healers are very difficult, but 3 Good healers scale the difficultly immensely. When you get to a couple of Ballers, they are almost impossible. WIth 3 of them, they ARE impossible to handle and that is without the complementary Guard. It really doesn't matter what the composition of the opposing team is. Operatives are the absolute most difficult to kill of all healers and given the huge influx of Operatives now running the field, it is disingenuous to state the opposite of what the trend is showing.

 

There is a flip-side to this problems as the TTK for DPS has decreased by sizable margins and without a healer people can die fast, especially when focused. But even still, when looking at the Damage vs. Heals after the WZ, I see healers that are regularly out-healing the DPS, with the occasional outlier DPSr breaking a million.

 

With all this, one would think I have a problem with that balance. Yea, I do from a certain aspect...but not as much when I look at the state of the METAGAME. Everyone in here is so focused and arguing about class imbalance, NOBODY has look at the Objective Mechanics of the Warzones themselves! The classes have changed drastically, but none of the Objective Mechanics has changed one bit. The 2.0 patch has turned PvP into a virtual stalemate. WZ are not only lasting absurdly long, they are almost tiring in some cases. Healing is now such were even if a team is being outgunned, the healing team can continue to assembly line to the forward line of battle to disrupt the more powerful team from taking the stupid node. If their Operative LOLROLL'd to a node and capped first, the game lasts 25 mins with a mid stalemate and a score margin of 1-10 points. That is stupid and seriously not fun.

 

If healers are so hard to get off the map, BW really needs to decrease the time it takes to place a bomb on Voidstar. Keep the Bridges the same, but the doors need to be adjusted. On Novare Coast, the 1 second time between clicking on the console and the actual taking of the point needs to be eliminated completely. On Alderaan, the time to take the node needs to be reduced to be at least to that of Hypergate. Huttball is almost a joke at this point so I have no ideas on that one. I also don't have any ideas about Hypergate stalemates in the mid, but there ARE other ways to win that one vs. brute force.

 

In closing, if BW has made this game more than just about killing, the other mechanics of the WZs need to be adjusted to reflect that as well.

 

Thoughts?

Edited May 14, 2013 by BeatdownPatrol

[Astarica]

I know I am pissing in the wind here, but let's keep this objective rather than going with the typical ZOMGOP/L2P nonsense.

 

I play DPS and I DO coordinate with others, but there is no doubt that healing right now really is over the top. All you have to do is look at the healing numbers at the end of the matches. Average healers are doing 500k in heals, Good healers are doing 800k, and Ballers are doing >1 mil, clean. A couple of average healers are manageable, but 3 Average healers can be very difficult. A couple of Good healers are very difficult, but 3 Good healers scale the difficultly immensely. When you get to a couple of Ballers, they are almost impossible. WIth 3 of them, they ARE impossible to handle and that is without the complementary Guard. It really doesn't matter what the composition of the opposing team is. Operatives are the absolute most difficult to kill of all healers and given the huge influx of Operatives now running the field, it is disingenuous to state the opposite of what the trend is showing.

 

There is a flip-side to this problems as the TTK for DPS has decreased by sizable margins and without a healer people can die fast, especially when focused. But even still, when looking at the Damage vs. Heals after the WZ, I see healers that are regularly out-healing the DPS, with the occasional outlier DPSr breaking a million.

 

With all this, one would think I have a problem with that balance. Yea, I do from a certain aspect...but not as much when I look at the state of the METAGAME. Everyone in here is so focused and arguing about class imbalance, NOBODY has look at the Objective Mechanics of the Warzones themselves! The classes have changed drastically, but none of the Objective Mechanics has changed one bit. The 2.0 patch has turned PvP into a virtual stalemate. WZ are not only lasting absurdly long, they are almost tiring in some cases. Healing is now such were even if a team is being outgunned, the healing team can continue to assembly line to the forward line of battle to disrupt the more powerful team from taking the stupid node. If their Operative LOLROLL'd to a node and capped first, the game lasts 25 mins with a mid stalemate and a score margin of 1-10 points. That is stupid and seriously not fun.

 

If healers are so hard to get off the map, BW really needs to decrease the time it takes to place a bomb on Voidstar. Keep the Bridges the same, but the doors need to be adjusted. On Novare Coast, the 1 second time between clicking on the console and the actual taking of the point needs to be eliminated completely. On Alderaan, the time to take the node needs to be reduced to be at least to that of Hypergate. Huttball is almost a joke at this point so I have no ideas on that one. I also don't have any ideas about Hypergate stalemates in the mid, but there ARE other ways to win that one vs. brute force.

 

Thoughts?

 

Right now the WZ extremely favor turtling. Who cares if you can't actually assault any node with any reasonable efficiency if your guys simply never died? And sure the other side can do that, and often they do exactly that and you end up with a total stalemate. Healers are absolutely crushing DPS in terms of total healed versus total damage done, and this is considering that damage can be padded (ae, dots) while healing is never padded unless you repeatedly set yourself on fire on Huttball. Note that healing padded damage is still useful, as in I don't really care if I have a corossive grenade on me when I'm at 100% health as that damage is mostly irrelevent, but if my healer remembered to toss out an AE HoT to counter it, then it's certainly useful to me as now I won't have to slowly lose 2K HP and that's got to be a good thing even if I was never really threatened by the dot.

[Aelaias]

This is NOT the solution.

 

 

SWTOR has a good thing by not requiring 50% healing debuffs. In every other MMO, the classes with the heavy healing debuff were the only ones that matter, and those without healing debuffs were worthless.

 

It's not a 50% debuff, it's only 20-25%. More classes should have it as well as more specs should have the 6 sec interrupt available to them.

[foxmob]

I agree, but i don't see how any of this is an issue with healing being OP.

 

the majority of heals have cast times, which means they should be interruptable. but if you only have 1 interrupt for ever 4 or 5 casts, the interrupt is pointless. the idea is that you mix in stuns, but stuns are already too much apart of the game, and they're susceptible to resolve anyway. make interrupts more relevant. make healers have to use casts times and stack alac to decrease those cast times. this will also reduce the magnitude (pwr/surge) of all those heals.

 

takeway: interrupts need to be more relevant. alacrity needs to be more relevant.

[Astarica]

the majority of heals have cast times, which means they should be interruptable. but if you only have 1 interrupt for ever 4 or 5 casts, the interrupt is pointless. the idea is that you mix in stuns, but stuns are already too much apart of the game, and they're susceptible to resolve anyway. make interrupts more relevant. make healers have to use casts times and stack alac to decrease those cast times. this will also reduce the magnitude (pwr/surge) of all those heals.

 

takeway: interrupts need to be more relevant. alacrity needs to be more relevant.

 

Interrupts were relevent pre 2.0. There was a conscious change to make them less relevent, like giving Polarity Shift to all Sorcerers and adding interrupt immunity on top of that. I suspect back when interrupts are relevent, it was too hard for most people to heal well as an interrupted Deliverance usually means you're dead. The better players started figuring out that if Deliverance = guaranteed interrupt then they need to spam more Benevolence instead, which is an inferior heal but an inferior heal is still better than no heal, and spamming that forces your attacker into a difficult decision of either trying to out DPS it (still hard) or interrupt it and risk a Deliverance slipping through. Of course it seems like instead of continuing this model the healers are leaning more toward the Op healer 'I'm not casting anything that has a cast time!' model. The heal I see most often with a casting time from an Op is diagnoistic scan these days.

 

By the way Alacrity is totally relevent. Polarity Shift is alacrity and it's brutal when you're facing it. It's just that the itemized stat alacrity is irrelevent when you have CDs like Polarity Shift that grants an incredible amount of alacrity so why bother with item budget?

Edited May 14, 2013 by Astarica

[foxmob]

People need to stop pretending healers suddenly got better between pre 2.0 and after 2.0. It's just way easier to heal with all the new ways of escaping, as the only notable anti-healing ability added in the game is the Electro Net (which most people foolishly use on non healers) on the side of DPS, while healers have a whole mess of new abilities to stay alive (Force Barrier, roll, free Polarity Shift for sages, free Hydraluic Overrides for commandoes).

 

Healing debuff on classes is not the answer as you'd just get a situation like early WoW where you can't PvP without Mortal Strike because otherwise no one would ever die. High general trauma would fix it, and I suggest getting rid of existing healing debuffs on Marauder/Sniper. They're not exactly weak and even if they are, adding some kind of gimmick isn't the way to balance it.

 

electro net works best on melee tbh. and it owns sins. they can't cloak out of it. that's about as stupid as being able to use shoulder cannon while stunned, pop a bubble while stunned, and only slightly less stupid than being able to channel/cap a node while in cover, but there you have it. working as intended.

[sauerkraut]

The entire SWTOR PvP is all about stun, heal, interrupt but for a reason or reasons if you like.

1. Stun: brakes down the PvP to a level so clickers, keyboarders and people with bad eye- hand coordination cold be competitive.

2. Heal: perfectly obvious everybody wants to PvP but nobody wants to get killed. So they cry and cry and cry and cry more on the forum for more heal and less damage. (boohoo, nerf this, boohoo, nerf that)

3. Interrupt: 3 out 4 WZs interrupt is the most important ability. Another big help for bad players.

4. Just like in any other sport only about 10-15% of the players are good players, BW has no other option but cater the masses, since they represent the majority of the subs.

[cycao]

The entire SWTOR PvP is all about stun, heal, interrupt but for a reason or reasons if you like.

1. Stun: brakes down the PvP to a level so clickers, keyboarders and people with bad eye- hand coordination cold be competitive.

2. Heal: perfectly obvious everybody wants to PvP but nobody wants to get killed. So they cry and cry and cry and cry more on the forum for more heal and less damage. (boohoo, nerf this, boohoo, nerf that)

3. Interrupt: 3 out 4 WZs interrupt is the most important ability. Another big help for bad players.

4. Just like in any other sport only about 10-15% of the players are good players, BW has no other option but cater the masses, since they represent the majority of the subs.

 

Are you saying that you don't think that stuns, healing and interrupts belong in this game?

[foxmob]

 

By the way Alacrity is totally relevent. Polarity Shift is alacrity and it's brutal when you're facing it. It's just that the itemized stat alacrity is irrelevent when you have CDs like Polarity Shift that grants an incredible amount of alacrity so why bother with item budget?

I'm not sure we even disagree on this, but alacrity is not relevant. it's more relevant to dps than it is to healers. that's a tongue in cheek statement, but there's some truth to it. in any case, alacrity is irrelevant meaning no healer is going to stack it. it's hugely important to a combat sent too. but not to put it on his gear. pop xen. reduce gcd. winning. not wasting stats on alac. (which is the same type of talented thing you're referring to for sages, I think).

 

a sniper should want alac too. they don't. and they're silly if they stack it atm. but let's look at why that is? the most popular build is uninterruptable for 20s of every 1.5 minutes. lol. who cares if you shave hundredths of a second off your cast time when you can't be interrupted?

 

make alac a more desireable stat.

[Astarica]

I'm not sure we even disagree on this, but alacrity is not relevant. it's more relevant to dps than it is to healers. that's a tongue in cheek statement, but there's some truth to it. in any case, alacrity is irrelevant meaning no healer is going to stack it. it's hugely important to a combat sent too. but not to put it on his gear. pop xen. reduce gcd. winning. not wasting stats on alac. (which is the same type of talented thing you're referring to for sages, I think).

 

a sniper should want alac too. they don't. and they're silly if they stack it atm. but let's look at why that is? the most popular build is uninterruptable for 20s of every 1.5 minutes. lol. who cares if you shave hundredths of a second off your cast time when you can't be interrupted?

 

make alac a more desireable stat.

 

Alacrity is undesireable due to talents. For example for 2 talent points in Marksmanship you can get Series of Shots to channel 30% faster, or you can spend your entire item budget on getting alacrity and get nowhere close to that. You can get 20% alacrity on Polarity Shift that also grants immunity to interrupts. Alacrity is absolutely important and right now it comes from CD/talents. If instead the talent makes Series of Shots channel 2% faster but having all your gear slotted for Alacrity gets you 30% haste, then you actually have an interesting dilemma. Do you sacrifice most of your gear to have Series of Shots (and everything else) cast 30% faster or risk a normal speed Series of Shots that's relatively easy to LoS? If you need all your gear slotted for alacrity to get the 1.0s Salvation, would that still be overpowered? But right now of course you don't do any of that because all forms of meaningful alacrity comes from talents/CD. It needs to be the other way around. The big alacrity modifiers should come strictly from gear, so if you want to cast sub 2.0s Deliverance you got to pay for it in other stats, as opposed to just pop a CD to get it to 2.0s.

[Raansu]

Lower guard to 25% and add diminishing returns to cross healing. Problem solved.

[Wraithwarr]

No, it really isn't.

[Arkerus]

Lower guard to 25% and add diminishing returns to cross healing. Problem solved.

 

Creating diminishing returns on cross healing would help a lot. Once healers hit critical mass they literally cannot be stopped with any amount of DPS (within reason).

Edited May 15, 2013 by Arkerus

[Mercediz]

PVP healing has really gone totally out of control, its ridiculous and annoying and not fun, and then again ridiculous and annoying. Voidstar is nightmare to play, I make 900k dmg and have like 3 or 5 kills total. Nobody can open the door whole game and game ends with scores 0-0 mostly. Somewhere in the half of the game I just wish to leave and play a Hutball or something else. It feels like rolling the stone uphill for 15 minutes..

Focusing helps ofcourse but it has almost come to the point that you need at least 3 people on a healer. Operative healers are EXTREMELY hard to kill for some reason to add to the problem. And this is happening more often now, as every Bob and Jo are switching to healing spec.

 

Now what we need something is some healing limitation in PVP: something like - the more you heal the same player the more are heals reduced. Cap it on 50%. Example: if you heal a player for his full hp heals are reduced 25%, if you heal him 2x for full hp (say 50k heal) reduce heal 50%. Heals are 50% until he dies. Then reset after death. Numbers are arbitrary here thats balance issue.

 

 

 

People are hitting for 12k...

[Raansu]

People are hitting for 12k...

 

Yeah while glitching bolster. Why don't we wait a week and watch and see if the average crit drops a little.

[Caeliux]

Question: You now what really is TOTALLY out of control?

 

Answer: Teams that understands focus.

 

/fin

[cashogy_reborn]

Yeah while glitching bolster. Why don't we wait a week and watch and see if the average crit drops a little.

 

no, not while glitching bolster

[Savej]

12k crits are possible. But in over 50 wzs two weekends ago I didn't notice 1 over 10.5k and the highest hits I've experienced in any of my logs has been a 9.4k. So while 12k may be possible when inspiration is up, the wz buff is active and 2 relics are popped on a perfectly geared character vs a debuffed scrub in light armor with no bubble, cd or guard active on a Tuesday with a full moon out, I'm going to say that is a red herring in a real balance discussion. What I have seen is that the average healer tops the average dpser in a given wz and the highest healer totals and hps numbers in a wz almost always exceeds any dpser's by a large percentage.

 

The healing situation now is worse than it was pre 1.2.

[Monterone]

My main is a sage healer

I play sage healer from the very start

 

a good sage will always find a window to cast Salvation

Insta AOE heal is overpowered - either we like it or not

+ now you have active alacrity/immunity to interuptions (mental alacrity)

 

No, but it would be OP if it autocrit and was not heal over time. Remind you of anything else in the game?